Guild Wars 2

This is why I really dont care about GW2 dungeons anymore:
There is absolutely no tactic required (few excceptions).

In most dungeons, all that matters is

• dodging
• dealing damage while dodging
• ressurrecting people who failed to dodge

I know ANet hates the Holy Trinity, and so do I.
But the great advantage it had, was the splitting of roles and therefore opening up space for different tactics.
Dont get me wrong, I dont want the Holy Trinity back!

Imho Dungeons need to get harder – not by damage but by group coordination required. There is no real achievement for completing a dungeon, you just have to do it 200 more times to get your set complete.
There is nothing like “yeah, we finally managed to beat the endboss”
I never talked to my group about how to fight a certain boss before. Seriously, we always just started watching it’s healthbar go down.

I want to be forced to talk to my team about HOW we fight a boss.
It’s ok to have several ways to beat the encounter, but NOT to have only one way: hit % dodge

My suggestion:

• Include more objekts like weapons, machines etc. that some players have to use 1) at the right time 2) the right way 3) at the right target in coordination with the rest of the team.
• Force groups to actually use cross class combos in a planned way (for example a Boss has a phase where it can only be harmed by Fire attacks and therefore a class has to lay down a combofield so your team can deal more firedamage)
• Force group coordinated positioning (for example: there is a field at least 1 player has to stand in while getting damage over time. If nobody is in that field the area explodes killing everybody)
• combine the above, make bossencounters challenging, unexpected and rewarding!

Include more objekts like weapons, machines etc. that some players have to use 1) at the right time 2) the right way 3) at the right target in coordination with the rest of the team.
Force groups to actually use cross class combos in a planned way (for example a Boss has a phase where it can only be harmed by Fire attacks and therefore a class has to lay down a combofield so your team can deal more firedamage)
Force group coordinated positioning (for example: there is a field at least 1 player has to stand in while getting damage over time. If nobody is in that field the area explodes killing everybody)
combine the above, make bossencounters challenging, unexpected and rewarding!

Not like this, not like this, please, anything but this.
No no no, hell no.

You provide the solution right here:

In most dungeons, all that matters is
dodging
dealing damage while dodging
ressurrecting people who failed to dodge

Don’t you see anything wrong? Let’s go back a step. Ahem:

1. Players are doing damage.
2. ??? …
3. Players are dead.

Besides dodging, what do you think needs to happen between 1 and 3, so players don’t die? I mean, you can’t seriously think that the only want to defend yourself is to dodge? This isn’t a FPS.

Wait…! You’ve already answered it!

But the great advantage it had, was the splitting of roles and therefore opening up space for different tactics.

….

Imho Dungeons need to get harder – not by damage but by group coordination required.

Every player in a team needs to:
Look out for each other: protect each other, heal each other, do anything you can do prevent that player from getting downed, if they get downed, don’t go to them and press F, instead try to protect them using your skills, like forcing enemies to stop attacking him by launching them away from your friend or put down Sun Spirit to blind enemies, Stone Spirit or protection… you get the idea.
(I saw that you play Ranger, I don’t play it so I don’t know all the skills)

Pay attention to enemies: if they’re going to hurt your friend, think of what you can do to stop the enemy doing that.
.

How you do that depends. Each profession is different. Each dungeon is different. Each player is different. What’s important is communicating with each other, and not being selfish with your skills.

In fact, to see what I mean, I suggest you do a dungeon with friends and ask everyone to look out for each other and put others first, let others support them instead of doing it themselves. Pay attention to the battlefield and think of how you can protect each other before they get Downed.

You’ll see right away what I’m talking about.

There’s your tactics

At the moment it’s ok, but I think we need more. Monsters are way too easy on us and have boring abilities. They need more abilities that challenge us, abilities that put us on our toes and try our best to keep each other alive and subjugate the enemies! We need something more exciting that makes the fights more memorable and makes us want to /jump up and down, /cheer and /highfive our friends when we’re done!

It’s actually surprising how much players can do without any chatter. They will go into a dungeon, execute a known PUG strategy of disabling traps, kill weak enemies, trigger a boss, use defenses fields, share boons, execute combo finishers, revive quickly, and use interrupts. Sure, players could talk about all but would it help much? If you look at the Spider Queen in AC, the first boss in explorable dungeons, there’s a lot going on but players deal with the traps and stuff so quickly that the group tactics are just assumed to be done. CoE and Arah were/are some of the hardest dungeons but even there we can now see shared PUG strategies replacing group tactics for quite quick runs.

If you want bosses with gimmicks, so that you need to do this special things as a team to get things done, well they are already there and they do just get done.

There is 0 thinking and organizing required.

lorazcyk.8927:

Every player in a team needs to:
Look out for each other: protect each other, heal each other, do anything you can do prevent that player from getting downed, if they get downed, don’t go to them and press F, instead try to protect them using your skills, like forcing enemies to stop attacking him by launching them away from your friend or put down Sun Spirit to blind enemies, Stone Spirit or protection… you get the idea.
(I saw that you play Ranger, I don’t play it so I don’t know all the skills)

Pay attention to enemies: if they’re going to hurt your friend, think of what you can do to stop the enemy doing that.

You’ll see right away what I’m talking about.

no need to do anything of the above.
Pressing F to rez is enough in almost every situation
No need to “protect” your friends, they can dodge and protect themselves.
you may disagree, bot it doesn’t matter because this is the game mechanic, not tactics!

You can not get rid of dodge→dmg in gw2 but you can add the requirement to kill a boss in a certain way.
Not getting hit and reviving your allies is basics.
A dungeon should offer more than what every 5 year old is capable of.
A dungeon should force you to think of what possibilities you have and how to accomplish your goal with it.

I agree with OP completely. The only thing I can call tactics is the boss at the end of the fire fractal and perhaps the one at cliffside, but only at level 79. At lower levels you can just faceroll on your keyboard to kill em. Here you need team tactics to survive, but it still doesn’t have any interesting mechanics enforced by the game design. I really like the idea proposed about the combo fields or having to stand in a certain location. If I think back to GW1, these dungeons/areas had much more of this stuff.

Adding such mechanics would actually increase the difficulty in a fun way. On fractals 79 it’s just that everything kills you in 1 hit, but you basically apply the same tactics as in lower fractals. The new explorable boss on eSouthsun Cove was a nice start, but suddenly some text pops up and explains everything what you should do. That just ruins the whole point of the mechanics; it’s fun to find stuff out. I recall facing the Kanaxai in GW1 the first time, we spent 3 hours trying to figure out how to beat it and it was so exciting when we finally did. I miss this in GW2.

The problem does exist, but your solution is not the way to go.

Dungeons need to be balanced around control role. For example, three scavengers leap at you at different times. You can only dodge two. Someone needs to stun the third scavenger.

The only thing I would like to see changed is a bigger difference in how difficult a dungeon is. I never really find one much more challenging than the other….which it should be according to the level requirement differences?
Although at least some tactics would be nice….

And there is ofcourse the dreadfull silence from most players who play dungeons…I am not asking for a whole discussion, but sometimes a simple hi/hey/hello is too much before the dungeon starts….

Aeri.5738:

There is 0 thinking and organizing required.

lorazcyk.8927:

Every player in a team needs to:
Look out for each other: protect each other, heal each other, do anything you can do prevent that player from getting downed, if they get downed, don’t go to them and press F, instead try to protect them using your skills, like forcing enemies to stop attacking him by launching them away from your friend or put down Sun Spirit to blind enemies, Stone Spirit or protection… you get the idea.
(I saw that you play Ranger, I don’t play it so I don’t know all the skills)

Pay attention to enemies: if they’re going to hurt your friend, think of what you can do to stop the enemy doing that.

You’ll see right away what I’m talking about.

no need to do anything of the above.
Pressing F to rez is enough in almost every situation
No need to “protect” your friends, they can dodge and protect themselves.
you may disagree, bot it doesn’t matter because this is the game mechanic, not tactics!

You can not get rid of dodge->dmg in gw2 but you can add the requirement to kill a boss in a certain way.
Not getting hit and reviving your allies is basics.
A dungeon should offer more than what every 5 year old is capable of.
A dungeon should force you to think of what possibilities you have and how to accomplish your goal with it.

Umm…

you said they die because they failed to Dodge. Perhaps if you used group skill tactics and cooperated with each other so they don’t die you’d see there’s already tactics and something “a five year old can’t do” . You shouldn’t let someone die at all. Dodge isnt’t your only defense.
.

The only problem I see here is that Anet lets players like you beat the dungeon with the atrocious way you/your group plays.
The game shouldn’t allow such awful gameplay to be able to beat a dungeon.
.

You can not get rid of dodge?dmg in gw2 but you can add the requirement to kill a boss in a certain way.
Not getting hit and reviving your allies is basics.
A dungeon should offer more than what every 5 year old is capable of.
A dungeon should force you to think of what possibilities you have and how to accomplish your goal with it.

If you take your own advice with an open mind, you might be surprised. Ever thing in that list (including group tactics) can be done with skills, like it’s supposed to.

If monsters are too easy, have the party wear blue armor, jewels and weapons.
If that’s still too easy, remove trait points to how many points you would have if you were the level the dungeon recommends.

Now try to beat the dungeon as fast and as easily as you normally do.
I think you will see there are in fact lots of group tactics.
I’m not telling you to roll a tank a healer and 3 dps. I’m saying that everyone does a litfle. If you don’t understand that, I think you don’t understand this game. This game is a soft trinity where everyone is supposed to do a little of everything.

In fact, you know what? Let’s make the dungeons require more coordination, tactics, and strategy, that’s exactly what I want and what you say you want. I want a dungeon to be so hard that you can’t beat it without group tactics.

The funny thing is, this would make players like you not be able to finish the dungeon, because to win you shouldn’t play so bad.

And that’s exactly what I want, I want to win because my group worked well, not because we can do DPS, revive, and move on without any sort of penalty (you can repair armor)

That’s why I’m glad you can’t waypoint anymore. It was a good move on Anet’s part. This was supposed to make players stop bring so selfish ans instead make them realize they need do you damage control support soft trinity tactics with, and to, each other, so they don’t die and use the WP to ruh back in.

But apparently that made no difference at all, players still play the same as before: each man for themselves, unless you die, then I’ll revive you.

runeblade.7514:

The problem does exist, but your solution is not the way to go.

Dungeons need to be balanced around control role. For example, three scavengers leap at you at different times. You can only dodge two. Someone needs to stun the third scavenger.

^ Pretty much

The OP is forgetting that kiting in circles is pretty much the only tactic you need. I think that the bosses lack variety, I mean every boss is either a high hp zero dps waste of my time or a one shotting kite for your life type mob, or a bugged gimmick mob. Although it sounds like the OP wants more of #3 to which I say when was the last time you PUG’d AC P2? It’s got what you’re looking for environmental weapons, requires teamwork, and the boss has invuln with stages of vulnerability why is no one doing it? Because it’s buggy, and complex yet rewards the same as P1 or P3. The problem imo is ANet’s no holy trinity stance has really taken melee out of the dungeon equation, all the bosses are unmercifully harsh to melee without the ability to spec support & actually heal decently it ends up everyone just grabs a ranged weapon to kite, and dodge roll for their lives because it’s easier. Now I’m not saying standing there healing & tanking a boss is any harder than kiting I’m just saying I’d like the option to do so.

I also think it would be funny and deliciously evil if ANet made a boss that has a kittenedly high damage basic ranged attack and a bad melee attack just to confuse all the ranged kiting lovers on how to beat him.

lorazcyk.8927:

If monsters are too easy, have the party wear blue armor, jewels and weapons.
If that’s still too easy, remove trait points to how many points you would have if you were the level the dungeon recommends.

Now try to beat the dungeon as fast and as easily as you normally do.
I think you will see there are in fact lots of group tactics.
I’m not telling you to roll a tank a healer and 3 dps. I’m saying that everyone does a litfle. If you don’t understand that, I think you don’t understand this game. This game is a soft trinity where everyone is supposed to do a little of everything.

Why would I wear less gear? it wouldnt add any tactical depth to the game, it would just make mobs oneshot me.
You are still confusing the overall class mechanics with tactis.
Maybe think about the difference, so you can understand this topic.

lorazcyk.8927:

In fact, you know what? Let’s make the dungeons require more coordination, tactics, and strategy, that’s exactly what I want and what you say you want. I want a dungeon to be so hard that you can’t beat it without group tactics.

The funny thing is, this would make players like you not be able to finish the dungeon, because to win you shouldn’t play so bad.

And why do you asume that?
Wasn’t it ME who wanted more tactical depth for dungeons?
It really seems like you can’t get the meaning of this thread at all.
Neither do you understand the difference between the generel class and game mechanics nor are you trying to get the point.
And now you are becoming insulting by (pointlessly) asuming “people like me” couldn’t beat a harder dungeon (at this point due to your missunderstanding it is not clear whether you mean harder by tactics or whatever).

This topic was not meant to troll, so please quit trolling or move on.

KamikazKid.4872:

The OP is forgetting that kiting in circles is pretty much the only tactic you need.

Nope, that’s why I opened this topic. No tactics required.

No, no, no, no, no. There are tons of other games out there that can cater to your liking. This is one of the few good games out there, stop trying to change what makes GW2 fun. Hopefully the devs never see this, or just brush it off.

Sorry if I sound really upset, that’s because I am, I’m tired of this junk that passes off as content, that anybody can do and doesn’t take skill or tactics/coordination/positioning between players and their skills.

You say skills is not tactics (yes, it is, it is in other games worth half their salt), but you don’t say what IS tactics to you.

Reading your firstpost it seemed what what you want is what I also want.
If I had it my way, dungeons would require so much player tactics and coordination that people like you (no, I’m no insultimg you), people who don’t don’t understand control support damage trinity and only dodge revive would NOT be able to finish the dungeon.
What I mean is that i want dungeons so difficult that anyone who doesn’t understand how to fight would NOT be able to win. People should only win if they played well, but these dungeons are zero risk of failure with armor repairs. Any group can play bad and they still win. Anet needs to make that stop.

The reason I bring up skills to you is that you seem to not realize the game his about using your skills and coordinating them with allies. You still don’t understand that everyone is supposed to be the trinity at the same time (support control damage), you don’t understand that’s what adds complexity to the game/dungeons. And you’re not alone , most players think they’re supposed to DPS, heal and buff themselves, dodge, and no more. That’s why most players are pretty bad (believe or not I don’t mean this as an insult, everyone is bad at first)

Not only that, but good monster intellilgence is NEEDED for fun tactical play. This game has junk monster AI. Terrible.

Therefore, unless Anet adds stupid stuff like bomberman mines, until they improve enemy AI, dungeons will never be challenging, never require tactics and good play from players, any “anybody” will be able to win.

I certainly don’t want Anet to cater content to this type of person who doesn’t even know how to survive in a dungeon except dodge and press f to revive, and doesn’t even understand each person is supposed to be a trinity on his own at all times.

This is not an insult to you or your teams, but it’s the truth. Someone who doesn’t understand combat shouldn’t be wininig!

It isn’t your fault you and other players don’t understand, it’s Anet’s. They didn’t make the game teach you. There is good enemy AI that requires players to be good players. Any bad player can win against dumb AI. They made the game so any body can beat the junk PVE content.

Kamizake and Rune blade understand. That dungeons can and should be challenging and require tactics, but right now the game doesn’t force players to be GOOD to win, any person good or bad can push through dungeons as much as they want until they win, just dodge, keep pressing F to revive and keep spamming your skills at the enemies then repair your armor if needed.

The dungeons don’t feel complex to you because the only thing they expect you to do is DPS. A team of 5 bad players can win any dungeon with enough time an money to repair.
Dungeons should be harsh and push your ability to the limit. They should make you give it your best, and only come out of the fight gasping for air, just barely made it.
Dungeons should require tactical play and coordination between players to feel epic.

Rune blade gave a perfect example of challenge and tactics; and like Kamikaze, for some reason your post came across as if you want to do no more than dodge and revive, you don’t seem to want to understand that ther is Trinity in this game, that every player needs to BE trinity, that there’s more to dps, that suport and control also need to be a big part of combat to make things challenging and require tactics ad cooperation.
But like I said, it’s not your fault, it’s Anet’s.

Like Kamikaze I also got the impression that by “tactics” you mean things like Null’s mines or AC path 2. That’s why said "heeeeelllllll no!’
To me that content is junk and I don’t want the game go cater more and more to that sort of stuff, stuff that doesn’t require skill. It makes for cheap gameplay, even if it’s a novelty at first.

You want stuff like players standing on the right platforms, which has nothing to do with combat and is only this stupid novelty stuff. Bad puzzles that make no sense and add nothing to gameplay.

If I wanted a puzzle game I would have bought one. I bought this to use skills and kill monsters.

I don’t know of it’s a misunderstanding on my part or if it’s really want you want. A puzzle adventure game. Yuck.

And yes, I know I sound really upset about this, and I really am. I’m tired of this sort of junk content, I don’t want anymore. I want real content, real fights, enemies with smart AI that require tactics and coordination of player’s skills with each other.

Sorry about the rambling,I had to stay awake last night to do some stuff and didn’t get any sleep.

Those sound more like Roles than Tactics.

But I get your point.
My only real beef with trying to create Roles with Environmental Weapons (NULL bomb diffusal) or with Environmental Objects (Detha’s path Spike Trap chain pulling) is that performance is not impacted by character building. It’s an RPG, my character building choices can land somewhere on a sliding scale between ‘good’ and ‘bad’ for any given situation, but they shouldn’t be sidestepped completely and rendered meaningless.

Group coordinated positioning already happens in fights like the Wraithlord or the Gate Controller. Actually, I’m mostly okay with these because they do reflect character building options better than the above does, although they can stand to push it farther.

Ultimately, while these things can certainly make encounters more distinguished, I tend to think the lackluster linearity of combat is a core problem and the above are adding attractive alterations to the surface. Control and Support are whole huge swaths of character building that could be interjecting a great deal of variety and teamplay to fights, but it’s rotting on the vine right now. I’d really rather see than fixed first and foremost.

So, TC, you’re asking more dungeons to be like CM, where you have to nail down a strategy, coordination, etc to survive and make your way through the place? …I’m okay with this.

lorazcyk.8927:

Reading your firstpost it seemed what what you want is what I also want.
If I had it my way, dungeons would require so much player tactics and coordination that people like you (no, I’m no insultimg you), people who don’t don’t understand control support damage trinity and only dodge revive would NOT be able to finish the dungeon.

You asume that I couldnt beat a dungeon like that, because I am already bored with what we have…
So all you say is, since the current dodge->damage mechanic we have is already to easy for me everything harder than that is unbeatable for me?
You Say I dont understand the game mechanics because imho there is nothing more required that dodging? Wrong! You are continously judging people to be “bad players” because they beat dungeons in the easiest way. This is not bad, this is just people doing the dungeons the way they are designed.
You should think about what you say before you post.

PLEASE sit down a few minutes and think about the difference between actual tactical requirements and the standard cross class game mechanics.
In 1 Point you are right, every class is a trinity itself, but you think that this is the tactics we currently have – it’s not.

Let me try an example:
In other games with the holy trinity, the game mechanic was Healers heal the tank, the tank gets hit by the boss and the DPS classes deal damage and sometimes walk out of red circles. THIS is NOT tactics.
For some bosses you had to break this trinity, do stuff you wouldn’t expect and think about a way to get along with the bosses abilities and circumstances.

I didn’t read the rest of you comment yet.

Imho no dungeon should ever be so hard, that some players can’t beat it.

What I understand of “tactics” is “a dungeon should force you to think of what possibilities you have and how to accomplish your goal with it.” (second post of mine)

You are still missunderstanding tactics and game mechanics.
While everybody will ALWAYS have to use all skills they have to prevent people from dieing, rezzing them, fighting the boss in terms of damage, there is currently no part involved that makes you think about HOW to fight the boss.
Think of it as “just damage will not kill that boss” situations, where you have to position your group in the right moments, and other non-standard class mechanics to actually be able to beat the boss.
I want harder dungeons people have to THINK about how they are going to beat a boss. I DONT want stupidly hard dungeons where you get oneshottet.
Hope you understand better now.

take 100% reflections and dps and the game doesn t need tactic.

Try non OP builds and professions and the game is not only uberdifficult but also require lot of tactics…

AND LUCK unfortunately…
Sometimes bosses that don t have CDs just decide you should get downed …..and you can t do much about it because you just have 2 evasions.

The way to go is not to restrict yourself!
Why would anybody use a build he/she doesn’t like only to make the game harder? (which would still not bring more tactical depth to the game!)

this game is designed to offer people choices.
Choices for builds, for gear, for class for the whole way they want to play the game.
Why would you restrict your freedom of choice?

Again: Tactics has nothing to do with skills, class, gear or your build!

Every dungeon has tactics but players skip the dungeons thats a bit too difficult for them. Everyone farms cof path 1 cause it is a easy dungeon to do (but I also find it the only easy/fast dungeon) the others arnt so forgiving. When last did someone do CM?? That dungeon is long, hard and you will die quite a bit even with OP players. Players love doing ARAH path 3 cause it is the easiest of the 4 dungeon paths.

If berserker players that run berserker runs complain about tactics then I wonder what would happen if they completely remove the downed state?? (for those that dnt know it is when players only buff on dps and not on survivablity and in the end if they go down they are depended on the other to kill the mob fast so that he can be rallied)

There are dungeons with tactics, but players have found ways to get past all that or they just completely skip those dungeons due to that reward vs effort is not good enough.

But I myself am quite bored with the dungeons and I actually don’t know why. Maybe if they made the story an actaul path where we can get tokens and such as the other paths I would play those instead.

Aeri.5738:

The way to go is not to restrict yourself!
Why would anybody use a build he/she doesn’t like only to make the game harder? (which would still not bring more tactical depth to the game!)

this game is designed to offer people choices.
Choices for builds, for gear, for class for the whole way they want to play the game.
Why would you restrict your freedom of choice?

Again: Tactics has nothing to do with skills, class, gear or your build!

Slower DPS. If you can’t play the optimal build, you’re terrible and holding the group back.

I don’t know if other online games are so dumb that players can sit there and spam their skills, but Gw1 wasn’t, not back in 2005.

I can see you didn’t play gw1… or you wouldn’t say skills can’t be tactics ^^
Maybe you only played dumb online games, that’s why you can’t see that player skill can be tactics.

PvE in Gw1 was not “Tank Heal Dps”, there were lots of different roles (speaking before baby mode was added)

The game teaches you how to become a good player as you progress through the game, so eventually you can be a good player who can play PvP well.
(Well, not Gw2, Gw1 did, but Gw2 uses cheap enemy mechanics a lot of the time, and doesn’t care if you’re good or not besides DPSing, so it can’t properly prepare players for PvP)

….

Whether or not you are a bad player or you chose to play badly, it’s the same thing. It’s bad gameplay. A team that plays bad shouldn’t win. If you play tic tac toe closing your eyes and marking random X and O, you shouldn’t be able to win.

Yes, Anet made the dungeons so any bad player or player who chose to play badly can win.
Fact is, if every person thought they have a trinity in themselves at all times, and used it for the benefit of the group, dungeons would be lots easier. If they coordinated skill tactics with each other (if Anet made it necessary), it would be a lot more fun.
I am NOT saying that one person needs to be heal, one person needs to be tank, three people needs to be DPS. That’s wrong, in fact a lot of players tried to play like that before they understood.

But you’re right, Anet made it so any player playing badly can win a dungeon.
They need to change the game so players need to become more skilled and learn how to cooperate with each other, that’s where tactics will come from.

• First of, they should remove armor repair and disallow the use of armor repair kits. Keep it in story mode, but not explorable mode.
• Anet needs to improve enemy intelligence. Reddit comes to the rescue.
  http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1fb3ty/is_it_just_me_or_is_invulnerability_a_very_weak/ca8rfx3
  http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1fb3ty/is_it_just_me_or_is_invulnerability_a_very_weak/ca8khx4
  More here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1fb3ty/is_it_just_me_or_is_invulnerability_a_very_weak/

Then watch:

http://youtu.be/BBxStGB6-UE

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1f75cs/guild_wars_2_fix_the_unholy_trinity/

What you want is more things like the Canach minesweeper game, isn’t? That’s what I don’t want. I didn’t buy “minesweeper”, I bought a game where I and my allies use our skills to kill monsters.

I agree with you, Anet caters to the lowest common denominator of players, any person who can just dodge and dps can win the dungeon. They need to change that so dungeons require tactics and coordination with players.

Make a party and tell them these rules:

• No one can repair armor (even repair kits)
• Don’t let any of your teammates get Downed, if they got Downed try not to get them Defeated. (try for 0 deaths, but when you’re done, tell me how many deaths there were).
• No one can skip mobs.
• No exploits.
• Use only blue gear (armor, accessories, weapons)
• Everyone must look out after each other with support and control skills.
• No food buffs (not even those master maintenance oils)
• No one can leave the dungeon and come back.

If your team is good, you’ll be able to win the dungeon easily, and no, you won’t get one shotted to death if your team looked out after one another. If you let your friend get one shot then that’s because you’re playing poorly.

Go try dungeons with those rules, you’ll have a lightbulb moment and you’ll see the game could have tactical play if Anet made it necessary.

I don’t know what games you’ve played that you only sit there and Tank DPS and Heal, but that sounds like a really boring and dumb game, I wouldn’t want to play it. Guild Wars 1 wasn’t like that (before Anet gave us baby mode)

You think I’m telling you to Tank Heal DPS, when I’m not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B99Z6dmrKtU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3y62pCQs-Y
(Could someone make a fight example with skilled players, explaining how a group does that? My computer is not powerful enough to make videos. Those videos are actually kinda terrible, for example they keep using the word “tank” which doesn’t exist in Gw2, and they make it sound like you’re either damage control support and need to swap to different roles, when in fact you don’t switch, you do them all at once.).

Think of it as “just damage will not kill that boss” situations, where you have to position your group in the right moments, and other non-standard class mechanics to actually be able to beat the boss.
I want harder dungeons people have to THINK about how they are going to beat a boss. I DONT want stupidly hard dungeons where you get oneshottet.

That’s what I want too, I just want it to be class gameplay, NOT junk puzzles like minesweeper, or “step in this platform”. Tired of that dumb stuff.

(link to 1 minute 52 seconds)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=E3y62pCQs-Y#t=110s

Instead of rushing to press F, that player should have protected her from afar.
Then he got downed too.
Why didn’t someone try to protect him when he was trying to revive someone?

Then the person narrating says “the game rewards you for healing”, as if healing is the only thing you can do to protect others. (And no, the game doesn’t reward you for healing, nor supporting)
You could have:
- given then protection or aegis
- tossed a heal/regen aoe
- stealthed them
- blinded enemies
- etc
you could have done any of this to rally them without even pressing F on them. And when you noticed their health was low, you could have done those things to prevent them getting Downed.

He says, about other games, when a group is looking for a healer so they can do a dungeon: “I hate my healer, I want to play my warrior!”
The funny thing that the warrior will have to play support too,in Gw2, LOL! Everyone has to play the healer ^^ (By healer I mean support, including protection)

The whole game should be like that, not dungeons: players should be tactical in the way they play.

Many ways to support and control:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Wiki:Projects/Soft_trinity#Support
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Wiki:Projects/Soft_trinity#Control

The way to go is not to restrict yourself!
Why would anybody use a build he/she doesn’t like only to make the game harder? (which would still not bring more tactical depth to the game!)
this game is designed to offer people choices.
Choices for builds, for gear, for class for the whole way they want to play the game.
Why would you restrict your freedom of choice?
Again: Tactics has nothing to do with skills, class, gear or your build!

You can keep using whatever build, gear, or traits you want. Just need to use your skills smartly.
Yes, it would add tactical depth to the game, you didn’t play Gw1, I can tell that.
You can choose the
You’re not understanding what I’m saying, I’m not telling your group to “pick a role and stick with it”.
Tactics has all to do with skills, and also monster intelligence, right now the monsters are dumb (Gw1 monsters were much smarter, even more so in hard mode).

I don’t know what games you played, but I can tell you didn’t play Gw1 ;-)

If Anet makes stuff difficult that makes players play well, then players who play badly would need to become better players to finish a dungeon. They’d need to learn team tactics.

The video of Anet I linked is terrible, it seems even the developers don’t know their game, or they’re ok with “dps or dodge to win”. I hope not, Anet, give us a smart game!

I agree, those are nice ideas to make the game harder – but those do NOT add tactical depth.
I am still talking about how you aproach different bosses, and right now there is no real difference between them.

I too would like to see an achievement if you manage to finish a dungeon without anyone getting downed / killed and stuff like that.
But to make the dungeons interesting, I want to have to make tactical decicions.

PS: no, I am not talkign about canach. canach wasnt tactical, he just had another mechanic!

Yes it would add tactical depth. It did in Gw1.

• if they made enemies smarter
  (If they gave enemies better intelligence atleast like Gw1, but this is 8 years later, they should be able to make them even smarter than Gw1).

• requiring that the team be good to finish the dungeon
  (bad players shouldn’t be able to win, they should only win when they improve their game play)

You misunderstood the point of what I said, I don’t want achievements. I hate achievements.
I just wanted to show you that if you tried playing a dungeon like that, you’d see exactly what I mean about tactical play. You’d have to, and I QUOTE from what you said:
You said:

• Imho Dungeons need to get harder – not by damage but by group coordination required. There is no real achievement for completing a dungeon, you just have to do it 200 more times to get your set complete.
• There is nothing like “yeah, we finally managed to beat the endboss”
• to talk to my team about HOW we fight a boss
• add tactical depth
• change how you approach different bosses
• add real difference(s) between them (and also different enemies all around the world, not just bosses and not just dungeons)

That’s what I want too, but I don’t want it to be in the way  you suggested. (Like how in the end of FF MF dungeon you bring bombs to certain places to explode the facility. To me that’s not fun at all, a NPC could do it, I want do to something that takes skill)

I am not talkign about canach. canach wasnt tactical

Agreed…

Make a party and tell them these rules:
No one can repair armor (even repair kits)
Don’t let any of your teammates get Downed, if they got Downed try not to get them Defeated. (try for 0 deaths, but when you’re done, tell me how many deaths there were).
No one can skip mobs.
No exploits.
Use only blue gear (armor, accessories, weapons)
Everyone must look out after each other with support and control skills.
No food buffs (not even those master maintenance oils)
No one can leave the dungeon and come back.

I agree, those are nice ideas to make the game harder – but those do NOT add tactical depth.

Don’t take my word for it, do it yourself. Go on, go try it so you can understand what I’m talking about.

You would only be able to win the dungeon like that if you and your team were smart with how you used to skills, if you try to play a dungeon like that you’ll see you can have EVERYTHING you wanted in that list I quoted above.

I’m not telling you that’s HOW you should play the game, I’m telling you to try it so you can see that the game HAS the potential for tactical play.
You’d see how the game has the potential to require tactics, but Anet decided to make the game pretty dumb and easy.

I’m telling you that Gw1 had that tactical play you’re asking for, Anet just needs to add it to the game.

I, like you, hate the Holy Trinity… However, I find that the problem isn’t really that these roles haven’t been defined but a lack of class balance so that each class can, effectively, take on any of these roles so that they can, if necessary, be coordinated when forming a group for a dungeon. It may have been ANet’s intention, but I thought they were hoping to step away from tank, DPS, and healing classes (however, some are better than others, at this time, for each).

The few times I have done dungeons, however, we have actually been pretty coordinated and tactical. I took my Guardian and I was chosen, in the CM dungeon, to be the “tank” who protects what’s-his-face as the enemies mob in to attack.

Smarter enemies would be great!

You’re not supposed to give different players didn’t roles.
You don’t say “you go healer, you go tank, the rest of you go DPS”.

That’s not how it works.
Everyone is primarily DPS. But every different class have different kinds of support and control skills. And different builds have different kinds.

Everyone is the trinity at all times.
You mostly DPS, but you also need to be careful with how you use your support and control skills, coordinating them with other players.

dunno, last time i did AC we were wiped quite fast and all because we needed to take down more then we could handle, dungeons are apperantly made for ppl who love to spam all kinds of AOE attacks but never gives any chance to single target groups.
they want to get rid of the holy trinity, if this go’s on like this we will have a new kind of holy trinity with even more discrimination on builds.

This game wants to remove the trinity model but fails at it (you still have a weak tanker, weak healers and high DPSers).
Bosses/Dragons(lol) have ridiculously high amount of HP and a dump AI,,, dodging(if needed) and spam dps attack to get them down and help failing teammates, that is the only tactics in this game and anyone telling you differently, they are just fooling themselves.

lorazcyk.8927:

Yes it would add tactical depth. It did in Gw1.

• if they made enemies smarter
  (If they gave enemies better intelligence atleast like Gw1, but this is 8 years later, they should be able to make them even smarter than Gw1).

• requiring that the team be good to finish the dungeon
  (bad players shouldn’t be able to win, they should only win when they improve their game play)

You misunderstood the point of what I said, I don’t want achievements. I hate achievements.
I just wanted to show you that if you tried playing a dungeon like that, you’d see exactly what I mean about tactical play. You’d have to, and I QUOTE from what you said:
You said:

• Imho Dungeons need to get harder – not by damage but by group coordination required. There is no real achievement for completing a dungeon, you just have to do it 200 more times to get your set complete.
• There is nothing like “yeah, we finally managed to beat the endboss”
• to talk to my team about HOW we fight a boss
• add tactical depth
• change how you approach different bosses
• add real difference(s) between them (and also different enemies all around the world, not just bosses and not just dungeons)

That’s what I want too, but I don’t want it to be in the way  you suggested. (Like how in the end of FF MF dungeon you bring bombs to certain places to explode the facility. To me that’s not fun at all, a NPC could do it, I want do to something that takes skill)

I am not talkign about canach. canach wasnt tactical

Agreed…

Make a party and tell them these rules:
No one can repair armor (even repair kits)
Don’t let any of your teammates get Downed, if they got Downed try not to get them Defeated. (try for 0 deaths, but when you’re done, tell me how many deaths there were).
No one can skip mobs.
No exploits.
Use only blue gear (armor, accessories, weapons)
Everyone must look out after each other with support and control skills.
No food buffs (not even those master maintenance oils)
No one can leave the dungeon and come back.

I agree, those are nice ideas to make the game harder – but those do NOT add tactical depth.

Don’t take my word for it, do it yourself. Go on, go try it so you can understand what I’m talking about.

You would only be able to win the dungeon like that if you and your team were smart with how you used to skills, if you try to play a dungeon like that you’ll see you can have EVERYTHING you wanted in that list I quoted above.

I’m not telling you that’s HOW you should play the game, I’m telling you to try it so you can see that the game HAS the potential for tactical play.
You’d see how the game has the potential to require tactics, but Anet decided to make the game pretty dumb and easy.

I’m telling you that Gw1 had that tactical play you’re asking for, Anet just needs to add it to the game.

I Give up explaining the difference between difficulty/ class mechanics and actual tactical requirements.
All your suggestions dont require a certain tactic for encounters, just more group interaction.
I am still not saying that thats something bad, unfortunately its still not the topic of this thread.

some dungeons must be easy than others. I don’t know you are talking about, no coordination … Try fractals high level, try arah to name a few, even COF – you still need to coordinate with your team!

Dungeons are fine! Perhaps we need more harder dungeons in the future

i agree with elsa i want to see like two very hard dungeons like harder then arah and coe more would be great but two start two or three but all of theme need to be very hard we need to start putting in end game stuff give theme really cool gear and weapons

There are plenty of situations in dungeons where party composition, and actual team-effort is involved.

Chaining reflect skills with mesmers and guardians for example.