Guild Wars 2

“Ogden was a priest of the Great Dwarf, and one of the renown heroes who defeated the Great Destroyer in 1078 AE alongside the asura Vekk, the norn Jora, the charr revolutionary Pyre Fierceshot, and the Ebon Vanguard officer Gwen. He was known to be reluctant to undergo the Rite of the Great Dwarf, but as it is not known how long dwarves typically live, it cannot be accurately stated when or why he underwent the rite. However, it is said that all of the dwarves were – by force, if necessary – to take the stony form. "

1) Living Stone
2) Aging can happen to stone, go to any mountain range for more information
-For less expensive field trip go to your nearest road and watch how cracks develop and how weather mostly rain and ice begins to cause those cracks to expand which ultimately causes pieces to break off. Same principal can and probably did happen to the dwarves.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ogden_Stonehealer

another side note from gw2 wiki regarding the tome:
“Though a great deal of dwarven lore comes from the Tome of Rubicon, the actual contents of the tome have been copied and re-written over the years, and sometimes its contents have been changed for political reasons.”

That still does not state that stone dwarves age as organic dwarves do. And weathering takes far longer than 200 years.

You continue to ignore the points of my previous posts. I have already -said- that the Tome of Rubicon is not a complete history, and has been copied and re-written. This means that there is room for it to be added that all the Elder Dragons are to be fought by the dwarves because they have already done so in past ages. They’ve only been focused on Primordus because he was the first one to show himself to them.

Weather takes longer then 200 years? lol someone tell Obama that Florida has found a time machines >.<!!!!!

Are you even bothering to consider the alternative points of views or are you just hell bent on being the dominate male and its your idea or the high way?

Your alternate view point is ‘no dwarves shouldn’t be playable’ my idea is that they should, I literally cannot compromise or consider that viewpoint because it doesn’t compute with my own in any way.

I am backing up my opinion with many different points whilst you are only focusing on one point and implying that this one reason is why they shouldn’t be made a playable race. This type of narrow-minded arguing is coming from you, not me.

And what’s this about Florida? I’m from the United Kingdom. We have a TARDIS.

Excuse me sir to use your logical arguments you are evading my weather theory which you cant disprove shoes on the other foot now hehehe

wtf now whos not reading peoples posts LOL
c-o-m-e-o-n kid read what i type instead of nerd raging that I don’t agree with you 100%
ill give you 3 minutes to find where I said ‘no dwarves shouldn’t be playable’

‘Kitten kid’?

‘Nerd raging’?

What? I don’t even.

Pencils Down ThatOddOne Time is up!

p.s. only way they can make a logical return lore wise is if and only If Primordus dies and all destroyers go bye bye. Then based on the lore it would be possible for the spell to be broken and the dwarves to be turned back to normal from their stone state.

x) as you can see I support the idea of them coming back as long as the lore matches their comeback and its not some fruity harry potter alakazam here we go.

dunno why c-o-m-e-o-n kid was kittened (without the -) but i fixed the post

… Not quite. I replied to that, evidently you didn’t see it.

I must also stress that the entire point of them coming back in a Primordus expansion is to fight Primordus. And once he is defeated in that expansion they can be freed of that purpose and turn on the other Elder Dragons as a race. (The playable character would be an exception, like the dwarf shown to be fighting Zhaitan’s forces in the artwork, to justify him/her/it going about leveling in older zones).

Actually you still didn’t see what i was replying to then, you know your latest glamorous point of:

Your alternate view point is ‘no dwarves shouldn’t be playable’

which of course is false and you are caught with your pants down x)

I was not aware the entire point of this conversation was to ‘catch me with my pants down’.

I apologise, I suppose? I’m not sure what for. But I do.

You think dwarves can be playable so long as certain criteria is met – I am aware of this and have said how that criteria could be met. End of discussion, really.

So then why did we pursue a nearly 2 page discussion on how I am wrong when the essential agreement is that they should be playable and now that we both agree as long as certain lore criteria is met o.O?

Anyways merry christmas to all and to all a good night.
x) back to farming I go unless you think we should continue talking, worse thing that happens is that your thread gets more view time from the 2 pages of bumps :P!

Because from the way you posted I assumed you were attacking the idea, and naturally, being a fan of the idea I jumped to defend it.

(And also because it keeps the thread at the top of the forums, but we’ll keep that quiet)

To late :P i thought that was the idea anyways, my dad has wanted the dwarves to be playble since the game came out. Note he plays dwarves in every game( from D&D, and neverwinter nights, to warhammer.). so i support this, just after the tengu are added – that is another topic though kekeke. good luck oh this idea, i would love to see it go through and would certainly roll a toon up

Tengu would be fantastic candidates at some point, agreed!

In my personal story I am introduced to a living dwarf; so there are still some alive. I would love to play one; in fact, if they would also introduce a new profession, I’d buy another character slot.

ThatOddOne.4387:

[…]

- Soceity with a main city? Thunderhead Keep. I take it you’ve seen the capital city sized blob in the Deldrimor Front area of the world map? It’s in the rough location Thunderhead Keep was.
- A source of unlimited numbers? … Not a requirement for a playable race, as far as I am aware. Besides, see my OP for a suggestion on that, there could be other ways.
- Customisation? I am sure ArenaNet is creative enough for that. I point you to the race of stone people in TERA, they had very interesting and cool looking customisation options. Marble, gemstones, veins of metal. These are your customisation options.

I have filled my original post to the brim with suggestions for a dwarf character’s personal story, so I do hope you haven’t ignored them.

In short – There is this thing called story development. And story development as I have suggested makes sense and is not implausible.

They ‘made sure’ they can no longer be a playable race? On the contrary, I see them opening doors to them being made a playable race with a new and interesting twist that sets them apart from dwarves of other settings.

Development. It is good.

Thunderhead Keep is in ruins.
- Dwarves no longer have a society. They just go around fighting destroyers. Only Ogden stays behind to tell the tale.
- A source of unlimited numbers is a requirement for a playable race, because you’ll be making countless creatures that belong to that race. The number of dwarves is fixed. No more can be than those wo already are. Only less and less while they are destroyed by dredge and destroyers. You can’t suddenly have dwarves popping all over the place as if they grew out of the rocks.
- They can’t be creative about that. They turned into stone. Clothes and all. What are you supposed to do? Paint all over them as if they were some Roman fresco? That’s won’t do, it’ll be just silly.

Dwarves are literally set in stone. In Eye of the North they ensured they’ll never be a playable race, unless someone came with a way to revert the Great Dwarf transformation and at least there was a male and a female able to procreate quite some time before the days of GW2, which is highly unlikely.

All for Dwarves as a playable race. The playable race of Dwarves in Shadowbane were made from stone as well.

Thunderhead Keep is in ruins.
- Dwarves no longer have a society. They just go around fighting destroyers. Only Ogden stays behind to tell the tale.
- A source of unlimited numbers is a requirement for a playable race, because you’ll be making countless creatures that belong to that race. The number of dwarves is fixed. No more can be than those wo already are. Only less and less while they are destroyed by dredge and destroyers. You can’t suddenly have dwarves popping all over the place as if they grew out of the rocks.
- They can’t be creative about that. They turned into stone. Clothes and all. What are you supposed to do? Paint all over them as if they were some Roman fresco? That’s won’t do, it’ll be just silly.

- And? There’s this thing called rebuilding. Building is something dwarves are good at.

- A source of unlimited numbers is not a requirement for a playable race, nor is having low numbers a bar on being a playable race. Darkspear Trolls in World of Warcraft were one tiny tribe, they were playable. The -entire race- was turned to stone. An entire race, civilians and all. Considering dwarves were one of the most populous races during the GW1 era that is a number of -at least- a million. Even considering constant warfare there should still be a fair few left, what with extra resilience factored in.

Also, I quote.

“They act as guardians of the Depths of Tyria, fighting off the minions of Primordus and denying them passage to the surface. As such, they are hardly ever seen.”

Only a small number of dwarves actually forged into the Depths, the rest stayed at the exits to the surface to guard it against the Destroyers, they’re not on a crusade, they’re defending. And as said, they are hardly ever seen – So who are we to say they don’t have the numbers to classify being a playable race, even without a way to replenish their numbers which -could- be plausibly explained.

- You just gave another example of how they could be creative. An attempt by stone dwarves to individualise themselves with paint, engraved runes and gemstones? Yes. That is called being creative. Thanks for the suggestion!

ThatOddOne.4387:

Welp, you’d get to beat on them in WvW! And Stone Summit too!

As to a race every dragon, this would be VERY interesting. The ideas I have for that would be:

Primordus = Dwarves
Jormag = Kodan
Kralkatorik = Elonian Undead (Under Palawa Joko)
Bubbles = Tengu?

I think I missed a dragon besides Zhaitan.

You forgot about Largos!

Their Wiki page says that “the ocean depths of their origin have unknown “horrors” which caused them to leave." I would love to use my underwater skills to fight a dragon.

I want to play as a Largos! ANET pls don’t tease me! >:[

I hope they never makes dwarves a playable race. You can explore their lore and story through the other races but considering established lore on their current fate…no never have them as a playable race.

You must consider the other races and how they function compared to the dwarves. Every other race is established economically, has major cities, are actually living and can reproduce, and their entire lives are not focused entirely on halting the progress of the dragons and the destroyers. Races that have potential as a playable race are the Ursan and the Tengu as they have the potential to become as economically and culturally stable as the other 5 playable races.

All your points have been refuted or otherwise acknowledged and answered in other posts, you are simply repeating what others before you have said.

The dwarves have been ‘missing’ for two-hundred years. Who’s to say necessity has not forced them to adapt and create a new culture and way of living completely revolving around fighting dragons – Which, I shouldn’t need to point out, would be a huge boon to the current races, as their economies and cultures, with the exception of sylvari, are not orientated to specifically fighting dragons.

And failing that, the problems you have pointed out are perfect for the personal story of the dwarven character – Solving these problems.

There are probably only about 3-6 dwarfes left on Tyria, And only one known dwarf.

I made a thread a while ago suggesting a Dwarven fractal. I think that this idea is great and should be seriously considered by Anet.

Perhaps it already has been considered and we’re just late to the party.

I really hope anet never get the idea of bring dwarves back as a playable race especailly if your ideas are anything to go by. Firstly, i’d like to say YES the amount of players needs to be near to endless if you’re going to have it as a playable race, How many players does GW2 have? Now if there are lets say only 500 dwarves left, how can over 500 players be one and still have npcs? Hmmm… this makes so much sense.

As for your idea of rebuilding more dwarves, please don’t make me laugh. They’re hell bent on fighting off the destroyers (Although i’d assume there has been a great loss in dwarves as the Destroyer of Life managed to roam surface for some time) Surely if the dwarves was causing so much trouble for primordus then his own champion the destroyer of life would have gone to fight them, not sit in tyria waiting to attack rata sum. Anyway, back to creating new dwarves. I think if they’re fighting the destroyers then where do they find the time to create these stone golems and somehow magically manage to give them the soul of a dwarve (Pretty sure even Asura can’t do this and they’re suppose to be able to do everything, but instead they’re lucky enough to use power stones – or did the dwarves suddenly become smarter then asura?) Then even if by some crazy chance they was able to forge stone golems, give them the spirit of a dwarve, how do they then get them to think like them? (oh and a stone golem would not be a dwarve so if this is how they get their numbers, i’m sure it’d be a race of golems not dwarves?) The stone dwarves have no feelings, personalities now which i’m sure would not also carry over into the created stone golem (dwarve) and therefore would not be the same.

Furthermore, if the dwarves have no personalities I think they’d be a very boring class to play. Also, without personalities, they would not care about how they look compared to other dwarves they’re using all they have to keep back the destroyers. I doubt they’d care too much if another dwarve looks the same as them and therefore would run to the surface to buy a new robe and as another person already stated armor has to be a factor when creating a new race. I’m not sure about you but I wouldn’t want to see a stone dwarve running around in a pretty red robe shooting fire from his rocky hands.

Finally, if we go with your idea how they can then turn to face all the elder dragons untill they are all destroyed what happens to them then? Do they suddenly stop being a playable race when they all fade away? Unless Anet intend to drag the elder dragons out into a GW3 I don’t really see how it could work out. Maybe they all get turned back into flesh, again this would be impossible if thousands of players are playing a race of stone dwarve and not flesh dwarve.

EliteZ.1682:

I really hope anet never get the idea of bring dwarves back as a playable race especailly if your ideas are anything to go by. Firstly, i’d like to say YES the amount of players needs to be near to endless if you’re going to have it as a playable race, How many players does GW2 have? Now if there are lets say only 500 dwarves left, how can over 500 players be one and still have npcs? Hmmm… this makes so much sense.

As for your idea of rebuilding more dwarves, please don’t make me laugh. They’re hell bent on fighting off the destroyers (Although i’d assume there has been a great loss in dwarves as the Destroyer of Life managed to roam surface for some time) Surely if the dwarves was causing so much trouble for primordus then his own champion the destroyer of life would have gone to fight them, not sit in tyria waiting to attack rata sum. Anyway, back to creating new dwarves. I think if they’re fighting the destroyers then where do they find the time to create these stone golems and somehow magically manage to give them the soul of a dwarve (Pretty sure even Asura can’t do this and they’re suppose to be able to do everything, but instead they’re lucky enough to use power stones – or did the dwarves suddenly become smarter then asura?) Then even if by some crazy chance they was able to forge stone golems, give them the spirit of a dwarve, how do they then get them to think like them? (oh and a stone golem would not be a dwarve so if this is how they get their numbers, i’m sure it’d be a race of golems not dwarves?) The stone dwarves have no feelings, personalities now which i’m sure would not also carry over into the created stone golem (dwarve) and therefore would not be the same.

Furthermore, if the dwarves have no personalities I think they’d be a very boring class to play. Also, without personalities, they would not care about how they look compared to other dwarves they’re using all they have to keep back the destroyers. I doubt they’d care too much if another dwarve looks the same as them and therefore would run to the surface to buy a new robe and as another person already stated armor has to be a factor when creating a new race. I’m not sure about you but I wouldn’t want to see a stone dwarve running around in a pretty red robe shooting fire from his rocky hands.

Finally, if we go with your idea how they can then turn to face all the elder dragons untill they are all destroyed what happens to them then? Do they suddenly stop being a playable race when they all fade away? Unless Anet intend to drag the elder dragons out into a GW3 I don’t really see how it could work out. Maybe they all get turned back into flesh, again this would be impossible if thousands of players are playing a race of stone dwarve and not flesh dwarve.

… I’ve already… Answered… All… Those… Points.

But for your benefit I’ll repeat myself.

Ogden quite clearly has personality. There are quite clearly dwarves that go around doing their own thing apart from their own kind (Aka, the one that fought alongside humans against Risen). What you point out, that they are focused on fighting the Dragons/Destroyers… That’s their new culture, of course it’s what the MAJORITY are going to be doing. The charr are focused on war, that is their culture, it doesn’t mean individual charr don’t have personalities, does it?

Bottom line. Dwarves have personality, they have just had no reason to exercise it at the moment, but they will do when the dwarves reach out to other races again. They’ve had 200 years, I am sure sentient stone is capable of re-developing a personality over that time.

As for Destroyers still appearing on the surface. Expecting the dwarves to, by themselves, keep the Depths completely water tight is stupid. And also another reason why they’d approach the other races and join their ranks: “Hey, we can’t hold the Destroyers off by ourselves anymore, come help us.”

From my first post:

“The dwarves may not have a future beyond the Elder Dragon threat, but seeing as they are so intimately tied story-wise to the Dragons, it’s not that out of place (They fought all of them, not just Primordus, in history). And isn’t the Elder Dragon threat the whole point of GW2 and its potential expansions? So the dwarves do still fit in and they can still eventually fade away once the dragons are done. It would be the perfect bitter sweet ending for them. Go out in a final blaze of glory fighting all the Elder Dragons alongside the other races of the world, as they did in ages past, though naturally the option for them to simply live on in peace is also there.”

Which answers your ‘dwarves dying out’. They can still die out after the dragon’s are defeated. GW3 is a long way away or non-existant, so I think you bringing it up is you scraping the bottom of the barrel for reasons.

Yes you’ve answered most of them before, but guess why? Because they are the reasons that they can’t be a playable race to other people. Apparently you’re too blind to see past your own ideas though like you’ve got to be right. What happens if Anet say no sorry dwarves won’t be a playable race ever, what will you do then? Attack Anet because they don’t feel the same way you do.

Okay… A. Are you Anet and decided the fate of the dwarves? Nope. Did Anet say that dwarves was striped of ALL purpose and personality besides fighting the destroyers? Yes. Maybe afew was able to keep their personality like ogden, I highly doubt a few million managed it or else anet wouldn’t have said the dwarves lost it in the first place and instead would have said some dwarves lost it. Yeah the Charr don’t like the human race and they want war with them, they choose to be that way themselves, the dwarves wasn’t, they can’t just change their mind a month down the line to actually, I don’t want to fight these destroyers anymore. Infact why don’t afew million of us just leave the destroyers to it and go roam tyria instead, hey lets go to the mists and battle the other races instead. Somehow, I don’t think that was part of the rite. Charr have their own mind, their own personality to decide what they want to do with who, dwarve on the other hand no longer have that ablity. You say they can reproduce a personality. How? for over 200 years all they have cared about is fighting destroyers what do they do? Wake up one morning thinking actually, I don’t want to fight these anymore. Instead i want to go and explore ascalon. If all they’ve been doing for 200 years is fighting destroyers even if they reclaimed their personlity they’d still have no feelings for the rest of the world, they’d still want to focus on just killing destoryers.

Seriosuly please think about what you’re saying and stop trying to make every single person who says their opinion about why this wouldn’t work to be wrong. You seem so desperate to attack every other commenter on this topic it’s quite pathetic.

Anyway, back onto topic. I didn’t say one or two destroyers, The Destroyer Of Life. The second champion to the elder dragon after The Great Destroyer. Now do you honestly think the dwarves who are focused on stoping them reach the surface would just let the champion reach it? Maybe afew destoyers yeah fine other people can kill them off, but the champion. Somehow I think they would try extra hard to stop it and as they couldn’t, I suspect they lost quite a few numers from it alone. Therefore reducing dwarven numbers even further so the posiblitiy of them having enough numbers to be a playable race even thinner.

Your whole reproducion process for the dwarves is never going to work and is possible the worst lore I’ve ever heard.

Yes i read your first post, but did you even bother to read mine?. GW2 is about destroying each of the elder dragons and as i said unless Anet decide to keep some of them alive for a GW3 (which as you’ve already stated is hundreds of years away lore wise i highly dount the elder dragons would just sit around and wait) so by the end of GW2 all of the elder dragons would have been destroyed (Unless anet come up with some secret unknown elder dragons to fight off in the future). However, just because the elder dragons get destroyed doesn’t mean that the game ends, servers shut down and anet close the game for good. No, the game will still be open and you’ll still be able to play the game once the elder dragons have been deafeated and therefore dwarves could not be a playable race anymore once they all fade away.

Before you post again trying to attack everyone who says their opinion. Please READ their post as you obviously didn’t read mine well enough. Then once you’ve done that, think about the fact that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Then think about the fact that Anet will not add dwarves as a playable race just because one person refused to let anyone else on the forums think otherwise. You look like a desperate child who can’t stand to hear anyone disagree with him.

Oglaf.1074:

The Dwarves are all “dead” are they not?

No they are still fighting Primordus (another Dragon) in deep underground (if you do the Guildwars 2 Priory line you get this)

The few survivors could mean 500, 5000, 50000. depending on what you had before and what you consider is a few..and dwarves were very numerous in GW1.

Then think about the fact that Anet will not add dwarves as a playable race just because one person refused to let anyone else on the forums think otherwise. You look like a desperate child who can’t stand to hear anyone disagree with him.

This right here is why I will barely take you seriously from this post onwards. You insulted me a grand total of about four times in that single post, calling me ‘pathetic’ and ‘blind’.

You also say your opinion like it is fact (You outright say it is ‘fact’ when you have nothing to support such a statement, you are not ArenaNet). I on the other hand do not state anything as fact, I give suggestions (As per the suggestion forums) that can then be used by ArenaNet. These suggestions are also backed up with predictions and then the reasoning and evidence behind those predictions. I am not stabbing in the dark or uttering one line “gief dwarves plx” I am saying “Please consider making dwarves playable, here, I will list the reasons why they could be.”. And I have listed both lore, mechanic and business suggestions/reasons.

I’m also not the only one who thinks dwarves should be playable and new lore updates open the doors for such.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/6th-playable-race-what-s-your-top-3-pick/page/3#post1167313

Dwarves show up more often than not.

There have been more people than not supporting dwarves on this thread.

Do not insult me, or presume my eagerness to defend the idea constitutes me being childish. It does in fact mean I am passionate about the subject, and if it’s ever implemented ArenaNet pretty much have a customer for life.

You think the reasons I have listed are reasons why they should not be playable, I think otherwise, so again I ask you not to insult me personally. I will ignore the fact you’ve deliberately misconstrued my points and warped them to support your argument (you’ve also structured them is such a way as to make me appear unreasonable, which is quite cunning, if underhanded, but never mind). For example your round-a-bout reason for them not being playable in GW2 is because they won’t be around for GW3, which is quite frankly ridiculous.

I don’t state that any of my reasons are fact, I’ve just given my opinion on each of your ideas and suggestions as to why that idea would not work. Everything I have said on this topic has been backed up with reasons aswell, so don’t act asif i’m simply saying “that wont work”.
I assume you’re passionate about dwarves coming being a playable race, but passion doesn’t stop someone from adknowledging others opinions. Be passionate about it yes, but don’t make it seem asif nobody else has the right to think you’re ideas wont work. Maybe Anet can come up with idaes as to why they will be a playable race and fair enough to them, but to me and many others as you can see that’ve disagreed with you. You’re suggestions in my opinion are not enough. Honestly, I don’t mind if they find a way to bring them in that’ll fit with lore and have enough story to cover them with. I wont play the class anyway as I find the idea of runing around as a stone quite boring and ugly, but each to their own.

I have not said they can not be a playable race, all i’m doing is giving my opinions as to why i think your suggestions about the idea wont work and you should be able to accept that and say “fair enough that’s what you think maybe Anet can come up with something better then I have” not to try and force your ideas on everyone and if they don’t agree argue untill the end of the world, or untill they agree with you.

Right. Please i’ll ask you again, read my comments. It’s not too much to ask is it? I have never said they can’t be a playable race in GW2 because of Gw3. If you actually read my comments you’ll see that. What I am saying is that if you use the idea you suggested that the dwarves fight every elder dragon before fading away then the dwarves will fade away during GW2 time zone, not after. It has nothing to do with GW3. If Anet plan to kill off every elder dragon by the end of GW2 (which i’m sure they do unless they wont their game to be somewhat short) then the dwarves will fade away after which will still be in GW2 time peroid.

odd one i like the dwarves too man. but wouldnt you rather have some new ideas in the game? i already know dwarves are miners, in gw 1 slavers. and dug up some horrible evil that caused havoc.

wouldnt you rather find out why the hell the quaggan havent gone extinct? or the skritt for that matter? the tengu and krait also keenly have my interest. we all already basically know what dwarves do. they dig, find something bad, and are good with machinery. what about the centuars? theres so many choices id rather they explored first. then if they wanted to do dwarves fine . but do you really expect many surprises? like theyve been building sky cities to fight the dragons or something? or do you just expect them to be searching for some ancient artifact buried deep to restore their race? would you watch a movie youve already seen before 30 times even if they added or changed a few scenes? i wouldnt.

Elitez – I have read all your points, and I disagree intensely with them, I don’t understand what you are talking about or don’t think they have any relevance to the question of dwarves being made playable or not. I also feel my reasons counter-act yours. (Case in point – You say that them not being able to reproduce means they can’t be playable, I say being able to reproduce is not a requirement to be a playable race, nor is having large numbers needed, large numbers as in the millions, and small numbers being thousands)

Yes, the dwarves can realistically fade away after the dragons are defeated in the GW2 games, whilst still being a playable race, it’s not like the moment the last dragon bites the dust the dwarves just suddenly pop away. It would take ages for them to erode completely anyways. Hence the term ‘fade away’ not ‘pop out of existence’. Fading takes time, especially for stone.

Then think about the fact that Anet will not add dwarves as a playable race

You are saying it as fact, that is what you have -written-.

poe lyfe – The Stone Dwarves are a new idea in of themselves. As has been said in the thread. As is them being resurgent, no dwarf race in any fantasy setting has ever been resurgent. That in itself bucks the stereotype immensely. In fact, making them die out, or even having them in a state of dying out, caters to the stereotype ArenaNet said it wanted to avoid in regards to dwarves.

Seriously? I’m trying my hardest not to be rude here, but seriously?

Okay let’s go you disagreeing that a playable race has to have a very large number or a way to reproduce to fit in with lore. Now let’s say there are 50,000 dwarves left? Now you’ll need a good portion of those to be non-playable NPC characters. So let’s say that’s 1000, leaves us with 45,000 living dwarves left. Now let’s think back to when anet announced they had sold over 2 million copies, but not all of those will still be playing so let’s say 1 million players. Now how on earth can 1 million people play dwarves if only 45,000 is left? What when someone crates a character does another dwarf just magically pop up to be played. Stones can not reproduce and therefore they need more then 2 million dwarves to be left alive. Which I highly highly doubt. Now surely even you can understand that? Just to make it clear… You can only play as a dwarf if there is one alive, if there isn’t enoung dwarves you can’t play as one without throwing realism and lore out of the window.

Did i once say they had to die instantly? Nope. I like how little faith you have in GW2. Look at GW1, still going 7+ years later. The end of the elder dragons will highly doubt be the end of GW2, when the elder dragons are destroyed i’m sure Anet will come up with some expansions with new story and keep it going. So what happens then? Say all the elder dragons are destroyed but anet keep on releasing content for the game, realisticly how long is it goes to take dwarves to fade away? Days? Weeks? Months? Years? You have to think long term aswell.

Onto your out of context quote which really makes me wonder if you can actually read or not (No offence) but seriously? PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD re-read the paragraph! Because no that paragraph does not state i’m saying anet will never make them a playable race. It quite clearly states no matter how much argueing about it you do it will not make anet release them just because you refuse to let anyone say otherwise.

Here to make it easy for you i’ll even copy the paragraph again:
“Before you post again trying to attack everyone who says their opinion. Please READ their post as you obviously didn’t read mine well enough. Then once you’ve done that, think about the fact that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Then think about the fact that Anet will not add dwarves as a playable race just because one person refused to let anyone else on the forums think otherwise. You look like a desperate child who can’t stand to hear anyone disagree with him.”

Did you get it that time?

anyway argue with yourself from now on because you’re blindness, although it is quite amusing, is getting very boring and pointless. We’ll see what Anet want to do with the idea.

Simply put, there are no possibilities.

The reason for this is because they were changed body AND mind, they are a hive mind of sorts, all connected and all become ‘The Great Dwarf’ (According to King Ironhammer when he said “We are all The Great Dwarf now!”). Ogden seems to be less effected by this and I assume its because he didn’t want the change to begin with. This alone means the mass population of the remaining Dwarfs are simply focused on the Destroyers. I also remember Ogden saying in GW1 saying something like this is the end of the Dwarfs, or something similar.

On a side note I’m sure I read somewhere on the GW2 site at some point during development that they gave the Dwarfs this story line so they couldn’t be playable in GW2 because they wanted to make something different, not just another Dwarf race like every other MMO out there. (Its my belief that this is the very reason the Asura became playable) Now, I am unable to find this page, which is quite annoying, I think it was a blog page or something similar. Also Ogden once said that the Dwarfs were ‘too few’ to contain the Destroyers and needed allies from the other races.

Besides, I’d rather see the Hylek become playable, not some generic Dwarf.

It won’t change.

The ritual of the great dwarf affects all dwarves.
From all we kno about the ritual, even if you got dwarves from a fractal of the mists, upon stepping on Tyria, sooner or later they will undergo the ritual like all dwarves before them. Because they are no longer “The Dwarves”, they are “The Great Dwarf”. Their only purpose now is fighting destroyers.

The main things the lore of a culture needs to allow are:
- Variety in body colors and shapes. So they won’t all look the same. Kodan, for example, are out, because all kodan are white polar bears.
- A main city hub for them. So they must be civilized and organized enough to accomplish that. That leaves out all the tribal and less organized races like hylek, jotun, grawl, quaggan…
- A broad variety of personalities so people can have choices in personal story.
- A great variety in occupations in their culture, so you can find all the profession and crafting disciplines among them.

Dwarves do not qualify in any of them.
- They may have variety in shapes, since they have humanoid faces, but they are all turned into stone, clothes and all.
- They may be organized with their shared will of the Great Dwarf, but they do not gather in a city hub to prosper. They are scattered fighting the destroyers where they are.
- They are almost mindlessly set into fighting destroyers. Some retain more or less of their original personality, but in general they are all destroyer-fighting machines.
- All they think about is their battle. No time to craft and bask in creativity. No artists or creative engineers either. Just combat. A dwarf would never, ever go to a festival activity unless by doing so they fought destroyers. Even Ogden, left behind to tell the tale, is doing so only to help fight the destroyers, as knowledge is power.

The old dwarves are gone, and the coffin is well nailed.
You can’t bring them back without making up random nonsense and greatly altering the established lore.
Why would they spend the effort of making sure they are not viable as a playable race to bring them back on a whim?

Then think about the fact that Anet will not add dwarves as a playable race just because one person refused to let anyone else on the forums think otherwise.

I replied to the last part of the quote as well – I’m not the only person, as you can see from this thread and others. You are taking an incredibly arrogant and highhanded stance on this.

anyway argue with yourself from now on because you’re blindness, although it is quite amusing, is getting very boring and pointless. We’ll see what Anet want to do with the idea.

Especially with that.

Simply put, there are no possibilities.

I am suggesting possibilities.

Also Ogden once said that the Dwarfs were ‘too few’ to contain the Destroyers and needed allies from the other races.

The charr are ‘too few’ to fight the Dragons by themselves without allies. The sylvari are ‘too few’ to fight the Dragons by themselves without allies. The asura are ‘too few’ to fight the Dragons by themselves without allies. The norn are ‘too few’ to fight the Dragons by themselves without allies. The humans are ‘too few’ to fight the Dragons by themselves without allies.

Even Ogden, left behind to tell the tale, is doing so only to help fight the destroyers, as knowledge is power.

No, he’s helping to fight -all- the Dragons and their minions, hence why I assume that dwarves are capable of fighting other Dragons and their minions as well (As evidenced by that dwarf fighting Risen alongside humans). They are simply focused on the Destroyers/Primordus because they were the first to awaken, and the dwarves were the first to start the fight.

The main things the lore of a culture needs to allow are:
– Variety in body colors and shapes. So they won’t all look the same. Kodan, for example, are out, because all kodan are white polar bears.
- A main city hub for them. So they must be civilized and organized enough to accomplish that. That leaves out all the tribal and less organized races like hylek, jotun, grawl, quaggan…
– A broad variety of personalities so people can have choices in personal story.
– A great variety in occupations in their culture, so you can find all the profession and crafting disciplines among them.

- Gemstones, runes, paint, different types of rock, mineral veins.
- Thunderhead Keep, simple reason, they need to consolidate in order to fight the Destroyers/Dragons more effectively, so they go and do just that.
- The dwarves do have personality, because they have a focus and a task doesn’t mean they individually don’t have personality. Remember the quotes that said they no longer are individuals came from in game sources that could be incorrect, Ogden theorised on the spot for example, he hadn’t done research (I am going to guess he was wrong in regards to personality, because he himself has one when he is turned into stone, I don’t think he would be an exception. Jalis also retained overall command, if he lost his personality and all the dwarves were the same conscience, why would they need to communicate?) – Also take into account that when he did theorise what had happened to Jalis and his Vanguard they were in the middle of a battle, hence the very real possibility they simply -appeared- to be singleminded at the time, but are not when not fighting. Added to this, that was only Jalis and his Vanguard, the rest of the dwarven race followed later and stay at the exits to the surface, we do not know if their situation is different, and it’s possible that it is. The Tome of the Rubicon is not a complete version, this has also been stated.
- Dwarves can have this too. They need everything they have to fight the Destroyers/Dragons. There’s your reason for different professions, that isn’t stupid at all.

The old dwarves are gone, and the coffin is well nailed.

As I said also, I don’t believe that is the case.

The dwarves went from ‘extinct’ in GW1, as said by ArenaNet. Then throughout leveling in GW2 we discovered different pieces of lore that hinted the dwarves are about. This culminated in Ogden outright stating they are still fighting Primordus in Arah Explorable.

ArenaNet have backtracked and opened doors, not closed them.

Apologies for not answering your entire posts, but I simply feel the answers are back in the thread somewhere.

I’m afraid you are in denial, then.
You are talking about the old dwarves that no longer exist, not The Great Dwarf.
You are clinging to the old idea of something that is ruins and ancient history now.
Dwarves are now practically destroyer-fighting machines. You want to change that, and changing that would be changing lore deeply.

- Gemstones, runes, paint, different types of rock, mineral veins.

• That’s their old culture. They don’t do any of that for social purposes anymore. If they do any of that, it would be the bare minimum to replace their own weapons and keep fighting, and maybe, just maybe, to reward heroes that help them. Not to trade them like the the social races do.

- Thunderhead Keep, simple reason, they need to consolidate in order to fight the Destroyers/Dragons more effectively, so they go and do just that.

• Thunderhead Keep is just ruins now, and they do not need to consolidate anything, because they are all connected. They don’t need to gather and share stories. All they need to do is fighting destroyers. They now have a ‘hive mind’ of sorts similar to that of dragon minions and the sylvari dream, so there’s no need to gather to talk.

- The dwarves do have personality, because they have a focus and a task doesn’t mean they individually don’t have personality.

• I didn’t say they don’t have personality. I said they lost most of it, replaced by the Great Dwarf. It like when you talk with a recently converted orrian minion. They may seem like their old selves, but they are gradually becoming more and more orrian and less themselves.
  Their only focus changed to fighting destroyers. And what remains depends on each dwarf, Ogden being the one less effected. Some say because he waited so long to undergo the ritual, and then stayed in th surface to tell the tale instead going down to fight.
  They may keep some of it, but it has been established in lore that they have been greatly altered by the ritual.

Also, they’ve told us quite clearly not to expect them as a playable race.
I don’t remember where, but I believe it was a post by Gaile Gray.
We are not telling you this to upset you or anything. We you want you to face reality.

I’m not going to quote TheOddOne’s post above because I’m too lazy to go through it, however with regards about your argument to a line said in GW1, Ogden mentioning the Dwarfs were too few to contain the Destroyers, and have since turned to stone which has stopped reproduction (an educated guess) and we can assume they have suffered heavy casualties over time by fighting the Destroyers (Again educated guess) and the fact that Dwarfs were few in number to begin with (As seen in GW, the Dwarfs split in to two factions, and I don’t see the Stone Summit Dwarfs aiding the Deldremor Dwarfs in any of this hence not mentioning them) I fail to see the point in you mentioning all the other races, mainly because they aren’t fighting a dragon, they are just trying to stop the Destroyers from getting to the surface, and are slowly failing in this (Likely due to lack of numbers) and they have no interest in the other dragons because when they turned themselves to stone they had one goal, drive back the Destroyers, this goal they are still trying to do.

With regards to places like Thunderhead Keep, I assumed the Norn took these areas for their own when driven south (Of course they may not have taken every single area, but likely the bigger areas where they could build/repair) and most of the underground areas have been ransacked by the Dredge or maybe have been taken over by our annoying shiny loving friends, the Skritt (Educated guess again but seems likely due to the fact Skritt prefer underground dwellings)

The biggest thing you seem to forget is that as much as you and other people would love to see them become playable (which is your opinion and you are right to have it) its simply lore breaking, even if they were to turn back, again completely lore breaking because the change was made because of The Great Dwarf’s hammer and as far as we know there is no tool to undo that… simply because why would they want to disrespect something they believe to be their God (Yes they did worship The Great Dwarf as their God) and with their changed mindset they wouldn’t want to change back.

Final bit from me, I see no open doors, I only see people wanting it to happen and clutching at straws, which in itself is no bad thing because people can give brilliant ideas, just not in this case, it should never happen and I still claim they said it would never happen in a blog post that I still can’t find despite searching.

Shrug

As I said, I disagree with both your points, and feel I have offered reasonable counters. I’m not going to repeat myself again and again. So I will simply say this: Find me an exact quote where an ArenaNet official has said dwarves will never be playable. Because I am reasonably certain they have not said that exactly. You say it would be lore-breaking, I say it would be lore evolving – Developing on the theme that the world is fighting back against the dragons. We fundamentally disagree and going back and forth will only clog up the thread, even if it’s bumping it.

The one thing I will object to is being painted to look like I am the only one that supports playable dwarves, I’m not.

All for Dwarves happening, there really isn’t a good niche in this game for Dwarf lovers other then Norn which still differ quite a bit.

ThatOddOne.4387:

What was said before on the subject of the dwarves, that they were too stereotypical fantasy and unoriginal

Honestly anyone using this argument is talking out of their kitten if they were worried about adding Unoriginal races they wouldn’t have added Humans to the game seeing how they exist in probably the most stereotypical and generic form of any fantasy game.

ThatOddOne.4387:

Shrug

As I said, I disagree with both your points, and feel I have offered reasonable counters. I’m not going to repeat myself again and again. So I will simply say this: Find me an exact quote where an ArenaNet official has said dwarves will never be playable. Because I am reasonably certain they have not said that exactly. […]

Most of it is buried on the Internets. FAQs and discussions with devs.
I remember some other discussions in wiki talk pages, but digging there is harder than finding a particular needle on the mists.
Let’s see if I can find something:
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?457338-E3-Video-on-OnlineWelten&p=4985057&viewfull=1#post4985057
(You may need to replace & amp: with just a & in the link, since these forums do weird things when parsing links.)

Gaile Gray.6028

Yen Sid

Any way we can change you guys’ minds on adding Dwarves as playable in GW2? Still a shred of hope….

I can ask about that, of course, but you saw how it was presented, so I’m thinking that it will not be happening.

To put it simply, Eye of the North was meant to connect GW1 and GW2, preparing the lore for all the changes.
Dwarves being set to stone and unplayable was one of those changes.
Looks like they wanted to burn their bridges so going back was not a possibility.

ThatOddOne.4387:

[…]
You say it would be lore-breaking, I say it would be lore evolving – Developing on the theme that the world is fighting back against the dragons. We fundamentally disagree and going back and forth will only clog up the thread, even if it’s bumping it.

You don’t need playing as a dwarf for that.
You can just play alongside dwarves, helping in their battle against the destroyers, like you help many of the other lesser and unplayable races.

ThatOddOne.4387:

The one thing I will object to is being painted to look like I am the only one that supports playable dwarves, I’m not.

Of course there’s other people who would want dwarves. You can find many other similar posts in other forums and fansites. All of them end up in a ‘bummer’ when they realize it’s highly unlikely, practically impossible.

There’s also people that would want hylek, skritt, quaggan, kodan, jotun, ogre, grawl, krait, centaur and even forgotten, seer, mursaat, undead, djinn and pretty much anything that talks or has ever talkedin the Guild Wars lore.
That doesn’t mean it’ll happen. If the lore of the creature won’t support being playable (customization, depth, variety, society, etc), it won’t be playable. We know as much.

MithranArkanere.8957:

It won’t change.

The ritual of the great dwarf affects all dwarves.
From all we kno about the ritual, even if you got dwarves from a fractal of the mists, upon stepping on Tyria, sooner or later they will undergo the ritual like all dwarves before them. Because they are no longer “The Dwarves”, they are “The Great Dwarf”. Their only purpose now is fighting destroyers.

The main things the lore of a culture needs to allow are:
- Variety in body colors and shapes. So they won’t all look the same. Kodan, for example, are out, because all kodan are white polar bears.
- A main city hub for them. So they must be civilized and organized enough to accomplish that. That leaves out all the tribal and less organized races like hylek, jotun, grawl, quaggan…
- A broad variety of personalities so people can have choices in personal story.
- A great variety in occupations in their culture, so you can find all the profession and crafting disciplines among them.

Dwarves do not qualify in any of them.
- They may have variety in shapes, since they have humanoid faces, but they are all turned into stone, clothes and all.
- They may be organized with their shared will of the Great Dwarf, but they do not gather in a city hub to prosper. They are scattered fighting the destroyers where they are.
- They are almost mindlessly set into fighting destroyers. Some retain more or less of their original personality, but in general they are all destroyer-fighting machines.
- All they think about is their battle. No time to craft and bask in creativity. No artists or creative engineers either. Just combat. A dwarf would never, ever go to a festival activity unless by doing so they fought destroyers. Even Ogden, left behind to tell the tale, is doing so only to help fight the destroyers, as knowledge is power.

The old dwarves are gone, and the coffin is well nailed.
You can’t bring them back without making up random nonsense and greatly altering the established lore.
Why would they spend the effort of making sure they are not viable as a playable race to bring them back on a whim?

1. Variety: Ogden is brownish and artwork has shown a jade-like dwarf. This means that color of the dwarves can be changed (akin to sylvari). A dwarf’s hairstyle can also be changed as well, when making a character in any mmo, you choose what ever properties you want. You can be playing a dwarf that happened to turn into stone looking like how you envisioned it, like playing as a human or charr. So dwarves can be customized.
2. Main city/Hub: How is it known if the dwarves do not have a main city? It certainly would not be Thunderhead Keep, but what is preventing them with having one underground? When you ventured in the depths, there are indeed structures underground when the dwarves were flesh. Those could be used as cities. What is preventing the dwarves to use the Asura city, because they surely must have had one back when they lived underground. The dwarves sole purpose now is to fight Primordus, and they are still smart enough to enlist the aid of outsiders, why would they not gather up and use numbers to their advantage?
3. Ogden is the only dwarf encountered so you do not really truly know if their personality is really warped. He is still very much the same as before he underwent the transformation. Yes, they all want to kill Primordus, but how is this much different from the Norns and their lust for glory? Killing primordus is just a lust for vengeance which fuels the dwarves. Each dwarf can interpret fighting the destroyers differently aswell.
4. Variety of occupations: ALL dwarves underwent the ritual, crafters and warriors alike. And if the dwarves are so adamant in fighting the destroyer, they WILL need weapons. If you need weapons, and never encounter any other advanced civilization, what do you do? You MAKE weapons. Same goes for armor, magical jewels, etc.

The dwarves were never stated to be unable to reproduce as well. They are living stone which can imply the ability to heal from wounds, and not shatter from blows. The sylvari are plants, essentially with wood as their skin. That is not very different from having a form of organic stone as a skin, so what is stopping them from still being around? Stone can be “fixed” given the right circumstances (heat), and the dwarves are fully capable of that (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Sorrow%27s_Flame). Aging was never mentioned in lore, and it is unknown if living stone erodes like regular stone.

Agree with those saying Dwarves cannot possibly become a playable race. I remember Arena.net employees stating the dwarves became extinct since GW1, but if you see the cinematics of EotN, you’ll see they say no such thing.
Ogden remains above ground telling the story and refuses to undergo the transformation of the rest of the collective to begin with, but reluctantly does so eventually – and you meet him again in GW2 in Durmand Priory and quests.
EotN cinematics also state King Jalishammer and the remaining dwarves pursued the Destroyer into the depths to continue the fight, and this fits right in with what Ogden says in the dialogue in Durmand Priory. But he alone remains above ground, and this setting does not open up to possibility of a sudden flourish of dwarves above ground as a playable race. It would take a considerable amount of backtracking on the lore so far on Arena.net’s behalf, too much imho, to suddenly have the dwarves return.

Think your energy is better spent requesting some other races playable, Kodan, Tengu, Quaggan, etc.

I would love to see dwarves as a playable race, prefferably fleshy dwarves, the stone thing is not my cup of tea, I want a dwarf engineer so badly since Warhammer Online proved to be such a fail.

Agree with those saying Dwarves cannot possibly become a playable race. I remember Arena.net employees stating the dwarves became extinct since GW1, but if you see the cinematics of EotN, you’ll see they say no such thing.
Ogden remains above ground telling the story and refuses to undergo the transformation of the rest of the collective to begin with, but reluctantly does so eventually – and you meet him again in GW2 in Durmand Priory and quests.
EotN cinematics also state King Jalishammer and the remaining dwarves pursued the Destroyer into the depths to continue the fight, and this fits right in with what Ogden says in the dialogue in Durmand Priory. But he alone remains above ground, and this setting does not open up to possibility of a sudden flourish of dwarves above ground as a playable race. It would take a considerable amount of backtracking on the lore so far on Arena.net’s behalf, too much imho, to suddenly have the dwarves return.

Think your energy is better spent requesting some other races playable, Kodan, Tengu, Quaggan, etc.

And more recent sources (Aka, GW2) says dwarves are not extinct and still fighting Primordus and the Destroyers primarily.

I know. I have met Ogden more than a few times, including in Arah Explorable – Which is where he says the dwarves are still fighting Primordus with no mention of ‘dying out’ or ‘extinct’.

King Jalis Ironhammer and his Vanguard remained in the Depths to take the fight to the Destroyers. Eventually the rest of the dwarven race also undertook the ritual and became stone – They now guard the exits to the surface against the Destroyers.
“They act as guardians of the Depths of Tyria, fighting off the minions of Primordus and denying them passage to the surface. As such, they are hardly ever seen. "

ArenaNet have already been backtracking on the issue of dwarves throughout GW2. And future monthly events could reintroduce them steadily, building up to being a playable race, as the following revelation hints to me:
http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/guild-wars-video/guildcast-guild-wars-show/guildcast-ep57-not-quite-guild-wars-2-expansion/

“there will be no new race, profession, or new region with these larger Feb/March releases.”

A proper ‘expansion’ as we traditionally regard them as a long way off, but the fact ArenaNet mention both race, profession and region in the same breath hints to me that they are all on the cards for the future.

I’ll decide where I spend my energy, and I adamantly believe offering suggestions and pointing out certain aspects of lore, and making ArenaNet aware of the support for playable dwarves is a good use of some of my free time.

Ofc, just don’t get your hopes up and don’t get angry when/if the option to play dwarves doesn’t come around.

Not sure here if you’re suggesting King Jalis Ironhammer and the Vanguard aren’t stone, but they are. They become transformed in EotN, and even Ogden is stone now but somehow not so connected to the others he needs to pursue the same goal. But all the others are vehemently fighting the last of the destroyers and Primordius, and as I’ve read every account so far by ArenaNet, gone in the depths. And I’ve not seen them backtrack on the dwarves so far; the king and his vanguard are in the depths ever since end of EotN, Ogden remains above ground – as seen in GW2. Sounds very final and unrecoverable to me.

I know exactly what happened. When I speak about dwarves and wanting playable dwarves, I am talking about keeping them as stone, not making them flesh again.

Keeping them stone makes them different, and is not out of the realm of possibility (Sylvari are plants).

Charr are vehemently fighting ghosts. Humans are vehemently fighting centaur. Focusing on fighting something for the majority of the time doesn’t exclude something from being a playable race!

I think the dwarves would be cool but the only thing that I think stands in the way really is that they are sort of similiar to the Norn in that they fill that sort of beer drinking, barbaric, tough nordic guy with a beard—except for size of course.

One way maybe is if the dwarves became sort of stone elemental dwarves—playing in stone form so they become a little different than the common dwarf stereotype. It would be cool to play as a stout dwarf made of stone with glowing eyes or something.

Greyalis.2309:

One way maybe is if the dwarves became sort of stone elemental dwarves—playing in stone form so they become a little different than the common dwarf stereotype. It would be cool to play as a stout dwarf made of stone with glowing eyes or something.

Exactly! I wouldn’t even be going on about them if there was no way to make them different from the stereotype now filled in partly by asura and partly by norn. The reason why I think Guild Wars Dwarves are viable for playable races is precisely because they can be different from the norm, due to changes they have undergone.

i would love to play a stone dwarf!!!

ThatOddOne.4387:

Your alternate view point is ‘no dwarves shouldn’t be playable’ my idea is that they should, I literally cannot compromise or consider that viewpoint because it doesn’t compute with my own in any way.

I am backing up my opinion with many different points whilst you are only focusing on one point and implying that this one reason is why they shouldn’t be made a playable race. This type of narrow-minded arguing is coming from you, not me.

And what’s this about Florida? I’m from the United Kingdom. We have a TARDIS.

Then Your point of view is entirely redundant. You can hold to it, but it is pointless and stupid. Lore-wise dwarves make no sense as a playable race and ANet don’t have a tendency of mutilating lore in order to appease players. They’re not the evil that is Matt Ward and the smurfs, space vampires, and Kaldor Drago the most awesome of awesome (I am aware that this is a reference few of you will get. Deal with it)

There is a difference between narrow mindedness and an understanding of fact/truth. If something is true then it cannot be untrue. Dwarves are not nor ever will they be a suitable playable race in the Guild Wars universe. Aside from this they are far too common a race – almost any other fantasy setting MMO has a Dwarf playable race. Arena Net have their own plans – they have their own world with their own design of races. I believe there is a reason they were turned to stone at the end of EotN and it wasn’t just for the lore. I think it is the developers way of saying “no – we’ll do our own thing.”

I think that your argument is not one of open-mindedness but extreme close mindedness. It seems to me that you cannot fathom a fantasy world without Tolkien elements to it – something that Dwarves are.