Guild Wars 2

TJV.6239:

Then Your point of view is entirely redundant. You can hold to it, but it is pointless and stupid. Lore-wise dwarves make no sense as a playable race and ANet don’t have a tendency of mutilating lore in order to appease players. They’re not the evil that is Matt Ward and the smurfs, space vampires, and Kaldor Drago the most awesome of awesome (I am aware that this is a reference few of you will get. Deal with it)

There is a difference between narrow mindedness and an understanding of fact/truth. If something is true then it cannot be untrue. Dwarves are not nor ever will they be a suitable playable race in the Guild Wars universe. Aside from this they are far too common a race – almost any other fantasy setting MMO has a Dwarf playable race. Arena Net have their own plans – they have their own world with their own design of races. I believe there is a reason they were turned to stone at the end of EotN and it wasn’t just for the lore. I think it is the developers way of saying “no – we’ll do our own thing.”

I think that your argument is not one of open-mindedness but extreme close mindedness. It seems to me that you cannot fathom a fantasy world without Tolkien elements to it – something that Dwarves are.

You’re not one to say whether my view point is redundant or not. It’s not mutilating lore. How is it actually mutilating lore? Can you explain this? Rather than just stating it as fact? And yes, I get the Matt Ward reference. I don’t think dwarves making a return are quite on the level of his liberties with the lore.

I have already stated the dwarves in Guild Wars are DIFFERENT from dwarves in other fantasy settings. ArenaNet have made this so. I would like dwarves playable because the Guild Wars dwarves and how they could be different, with different mindsets, different priorities etc etc are extremely interesting for me, and others.

You do not back up your points with reasons, you simply state them as fact, when it is not fact. This infuriates me more than anyone actually countering my points does. You have not countered my points. Well, that’s a lie – You’ve countered one of my points, which I have replied to in the paragraph above.

Oh, I can fathom a world without dwarves (Even if the Guild Wars world is not actually without dwarves, it’s been repeatedly stated they are still around and fighting). I’m quite pleased with Guild Wars 2, I just think dwarves would be a good addition that – As I have stated before, it continues the theme that the world is fighting back against the dragons. (Not that I actually see how your last paragraph is a counter to my points, rather simply a personal attack on me, which tends to be a theme with these kind of arguments. Can’t counter the points? Attack the poster!)

I think creating dwarves would be too…plain. GW2 is supposed to be unique, adding dwarves would make it like alot of other games. Though, they should add another race to just open up the variety. But seriously?Do you really need dwarves in GW2? They already failed in GW1.

How could there possible be playable dwarves when they can’t procreate?

belara.6710:

I think creating dwarves would be too…plain. GW2 is supposed to be unique, adding dwarves would make it like alot of other games. Though, they should add another race to just open up the variety. But seriously?Do you really need dwarves in GW2? They already failed in GW1.

Mrhmn. The GW dwarves are unique, or at the very least markedly different from the dwarves of other settings.

Stone dwarves -would- be variety.

They didn’t fail. They’ve been holding off the majority of the Destroyers for the past 200 years whilst the rest of the races killed each other or dragged their feet or hadn’t even awoken yet.

Oglaf.1074:

How could there possible be playable dwarves when they can’t procreate?

Procreation is not a requirement for a playable race, me tinks. And if you think it is, then doesn’t that strike you as a bit arbitrary and restrictive?

ThatOddOne.4387:

Oglaf.1074:

How could there possible be playable dwarves when they can’t procreate?

Procreation is not a requirement for a playable race, me tinks.

Of course it is. You have to have an in-game explanation for your character’s existence after all. Mr. and Ms. Norn had sex and had my Norn character. How would you explain the creation of your dwarf? You can’t just have the population of this dying and finite race of beings just explode.

Oglaf.1074:

ThatOddOne.4387:

Oglaf.1074:

How could there possible be playable dwarves when they can’t procreate?

Procreation is not a requirement for a playable race, me tinks.

Of course it is. You have to have an in-game explanation for your character’s existence after all. Mr. and Ms. Norn had sex and had my Norn character. How would you explain the creation of your dwarf? You can’t just have the population of this dying and finite race of beings just explode.

Don’t even try and have that argument with him, his too blind even though it’s been stated so many times already that in order to allow millions of players to be a dwarf, there needs to be well over 1 million living dwarves, which there isn’t, there wasn’t even that much in GW1 let alone the amount that have fallen to the destroyers, which again I go back and say I personally think The Destroyer of Life would have killed a number of dwarves himselve. So unless they have a way to carry on creating more dwarves every time someone creates a character they can’t be a playable race! You can’t have 1 million players playing a dwarve when there was only 5000 dwarves alive, do you even have any common knowledge?

I’m sorry! I must have missed that inane mention of player numbers because I tend to ignore those arguments, for your benefit I’ll quite happily answer them.

I’m quite sure there will not be a million people playing dwarves. Certainly not on the same server. And seeing how each server is a different world, the population of dwarves over the entire number of servers doesn’t really matter. On each individual server there’s not going to be a million people playing dwarves. In fact if they were playable they’d probably be among the least populated race, which would even fit the lore! Not that it fits lore at the moment – All those humans characters compared to the number of charr characters? Charr should outnumber humans in lore, yet they don’t in game player numbers wise.

Do we even have numbers for the highest populated server? I am pretty sure it’s not even going to reach a million by itself.

You see why I normally ignore arguments of player numbers? I hope that’s understandable.

Of course it is. You have to have an in-game explanation for your character’s existence after all. Mr. and Ms. Norn had sex and had my Norn character. How would you explain the creation of your dwarf? You can’t just have the population of this dying and finite race of beings just explode.

… Umh. The dwarf you play was one of the citizens of Deldrimor that turned to stone 200 years ago, and then proceeded to the exits to the surface to guard them?

I’m sorry, but how can you base it off serperate servers? So are you telling me there are infact hundreds of Logans? Hundreds of Eirs? Hundreds of Rylocks? No, because lore does not go by seperate servers. There is only 1 queen of the human race, Queen Jennah and she is on every server, doesn’t mean there are hundreds of queens. While I do not know how many people play GW2, I remember back towards launch they said they sold over 2 million copies, so i’ll guess about half of those left by now and so around 1million left? I’m also sure you can guess most accounts would have a dwarve character, others with more. So there will have to be around 1million + dwarves in tyria not just in Desolation

Yes, there are 100s of Logans etc etc. But there is only ONE Logan and ONE Eir on ONE server, and therefore ONE in the story.

They’re all separate worlds. They are individual and not connected to each other. Thus why the race populations of the servers will not be added up for the purposes of calculating numbers in lore.

This is not a difficult concept to grasp, EliteZ.

I wish someone told Destinty’s Edge that there are different servers with clones of themselves, would have been able to kill kralkatorrik then, they could have just borrowed another Logan from adifferent server to fight with them. Though saying that maybe kralkatorrik would then get hundreds of elder dragons to fight with him.

No. Lore wise there is ONE Logan, ONE Eir, ONE Rytlock and ONE queen. They have hundreds of them for all the different servers so that every server has them. We are talking about LORE though. In real world there isn’t “servers”. In lore logan can’t just say, hey yanno what, i’m going to move server tomorrow to see myself.

That’s my POINT.

Destiny’s Edge don’t know that because in lore servers don’t exist. Therefore the total numbers of dwarves and other races over all the servers does not matter. It is the population on an INDIVIDUAL server that matters. (And as I have stated, the population of playable dwarves on a server will never be high, which fits the lore)

YOU were the one that started going on about player numbers, until then I have only been talking about LORE, the fact you have not countered my lore points in any comprehensible fashion, and not had them shot down by me replying, simply tells me you have run out of arguments.

I have gone out of my way to answer every single one of your arguments, yet all you do is attack me personally. The only reason I am still replying is so the thread is bumped at this point.

I’d love a dwarfish race as I miss having a short but less cure race and always been a fan of Dwarves since days long past.

Looking forward to seeing what happens with game & expansions in future though I’d say no real rush on this sort of extra content yet. Fix Bugs, add more PvP & PvE options, more UI & Guild features first, imo.

Indeed! A race expansion is a long way off. And there are other gameplay features to sort out before then. I cannot stress enough I am not crying out in a high voice “GIEF DWARVES NOW”. I am simply attempting to draw attention to the fact that playable dwarves are a reasonably popular thing, and providing reasons to back them up.

Of course, there are also other races which can be made playable easily – Tengu and Kodan among them – Perhaps even Elonian Undead? Playable mummies!

ThatOddOne.4387:

That’s my POINT.

Destiny’s Edge don’t know that because in lore servers don’t exist. Therefore the total numbers of dwarves and other races over all the servers does not matter. It is the population on an INDIVIDUAL server that matters.

YOU were the one that started going on about player numbers, until then I have only been talking about LORE, the fact you have not countered my lore points in any comprehensible fashion, and not had them shot down by me replying, simply tells me you have run out of arguments.

Omg really? I wish you could see what you’re saying from adifferent point of view.

LORE WISE THERE HAS TO BE ENOUGH DWARVES, NOT SERVER WISE. Every server is a CLONE so that everyone isn’t in one place, that doesn’t mean you can double the amount of dwarves because there are 2 servers. If the lore says there are 200 dwarves left alive, doesn’t mean you can turn around and say there are 400 because there are 2 servers. There is still only 200 dwarves as each server is just a copy of the real world. So if GW2 has a million players across so many servers in lore there are 1 million players not less because some of them are on a different server which as you already stated yourself, is not real and is not in lore.

You can not turn around and say, there are 100 dwarves left alive in server A. 400 left alive in server B and 1500 left alive in server C just because the servers have different population

I literally did not understand a single word of that.

Lorewise I am saying it is quite possible for there to be enough dwarves for them to be playable. 10,000 dwarves left in lore? That’s still perfectly fine for a single server, even including NPCs. And because there are 10,000 dwarves in lore there are 10,000 dwarves on Piken Square and 10,000 dwarves on Gandara. I have never said at any point there’d be differing amount of dwarves in lore for each server. :P

Your last sentence? I haven’t been saying that at all.

My problem with a playable dwarf.

A: We’ve been told in GW1 and GW2 that the Dwarves mindset has pretty much been turned to “WAR WITH DESTROYERS AT ALL COSTS. KILL THEM ALL”. IIRC, when you reach the Central Transfer chamber Jalis screams and leads a charge into another section of caverns to fight the destroyers while the heroes goes against the great destroyer. Odgen is the last dwarf above the surface, and the Dredge believe he is the last dwarf… EVER.

B: All the other races you can start as somebody who is either skilled, or learning and new to the world and their class. A stone dwarf would have been fighting for 250 years+ against the Destroyers. The element of “Learning the ropes” is completely gone with them as all of them are vets.

C: There are other races that can be used for playable ones. Tengu for example, Kodan is another (While they are all polar bears, we’ve seen some with black paint/tattoos). Largos might be an option, Centaurs maybe (there have been groups friendly to humans in the past).

D: It’d frankly (IMO)… ruin the experiance. It would remove the aspect of “Odgen’s the last dwarf working with us. Let’s find out as much as we can about the dwarves from ruins and Arah to learn what we can!” and replace it with “Hey, let’s ask one of our handy dandy Dwarves just around the bend of the road!” A thing in GW2 is of the ancient races that had encountered the Elder Dragons before, only the Jotun truly remain. And they have lost everything and won’t help. Mursaat, Seer, Forgotten have all disappeared. Dwarves are to public knowledge extinct (those that know better know any survivors are deep, deep underground in constant battle).

Kalavier.1097:

My problem with a playable dwarf.

A: We’ve been told in GW1 and GW2 that the Dwarves mindset has pretty much been turned to “WAR WITH DESTROYERS AT ALL COSTS. KILL THEM ALL”. IIRC, when you reach the Central Transfer chamber Jalis screams and leads a charge into another section of caverns to fight the destroyers while the heroes goes against the great destroyer. Odgen is the last dwarf above the surface, and the Dredge believe he is the last dwarf… EVER.

B: All the other races you can start as somebody who is either skilled, or learning and new to the world and their class. A stone dwarf would have been fighting for 250 years+ against the Destroyers. The element of “Learning the ropes” is completely gone with them as all of them are vets.

C: There are other races that can be used for playable ones. Tengu for example, Kodan is another (While they are all polar bears, we’ve seen some with black paint/tattoos). Largos might be an option, Centaurs maybe (there have been groups friendly to humans in the past).

D: It’d frankly (IMO)… ruin the experiance. It would remove the aspect of “Odgen’s the last dwarf working with us. Let’s find out as much as we can about the dwarves from ruins and Arah to learn what we can!” and replace it with “Hey, let’s ask one of our handy dandy Dwarves just around the bend of the road!” A thing in GW2 is of the ancient races that had encountered the Elder Dragons before, only the Jotun truly remain. And they have lost everything and won’t help. Mursaat, Seer, Forgotten have all disappeared. Dwarves are to public knowledge extinct (those that know better know any survivors are deep, deep underground in constant battle).

A. A fair point. However, I counter this by saying that the charr are pretty much all about war, but this does not stop them from doing other things. And as we have seen from sources (Ogden, and that one dwarf in the artwork fighting alongside humans against Risen) dwarves are capable of doing things other than fighting Destroyers – And if they are introduced in a Destroyer expansion they will be doing exactly that, fighting Destroyers, and once the Destroyers are gone and Primordus defeated the dwarves can then move on to fighting other dragons and their minions. The player character going around the world leveling up can be explained that due to circumstances he has more independence than the rest of his/her/its race, and that could even be part of the dwarves’ personal story – Finding a way to break dwarves out of their mold and let them go on and do other things.

B. Another fair point, this could be solved by a suspension of disbelief in regards to leveling. Or the dwarf character becoming more experienced in fighting other things rather than just Destroyers.

C. There are indeed other races that can be playable. Personally I am of the opinion it would be cool if there was a playable race for each dragon. Which would mean Tengu = Bubbles(?), Kodan = Jormag, Elonian Undead (Example) = Kralkatorrik (He’s in Elona now). This leaves Primordus for dwarves.

D. I don’t think it would ruin the experience, it evolves on the lore point that the world is fighting back against the dragons – As the dwarves are essentially made out of the ‘world’ now, having them return reinforces this to an extent. It also would give the current races a boost, having an elder race join their ranks is a huge boon after all. Ogden is the only one on the surface, true, however in Arah Explorable he says the rest of the dwarves are still fighting Primordus and the Destroyers. Also, this quote implies that only Jalis and his Vanguard charged off into the Depths, the rest of the dwarves when they turned to stone guard the exits:

“They act as guardians of the Depths of Tyria, fighting off the minions of Primordus and denying them passage to the surface. As such, they are hardly ever seen.”

ThatOddOne.4387:

A. A fair point. However, I counter this by saying that the charr are pretty much all about war, but this does not stop them from doing other things. And as we have seen from sources (Ogden, and that one dwarf in the artwork fighting alongside humans against Risen) dwarves are capable of doing things other than fighting Destroyers – And if they are introduced in a Destroyer expansion they will be doing exactly that, fighting Destroyers, and once the Destroyers are gone and Primordus defeated the dwarves can then move on to fighting other dragons and their minions. The player character going around the world leveling up can be explained that due to circumstances he has more independence than the rest of his/her/its race, and that could even be part of the dwarves’ personal story – Finding a way to break dwarves out of their mold and let them go on and do other things.

B. Another fair point, this could be solved by a suspension of disbelief in regards to leveling. Or the dwarf character becoming more experienced in fighting other things rather than just Destroyers.

C. There are indeed other races that can be playable. Personally I am of the opinion it would be cool if there was a playable race for each dragon. Which would mean Tengu = Bubbles(?), Kodan = Jormag, Elonian Undead (Example) = Kralkatorrik (He’s in Elona now). This leaves Primordus for dwarves.

D. I don’t think it would ruin the experience, it evolves on the lore point that the world is fighting back against the dragons – As the dwarves are essentially made out of the ‘world’ now, having them return reinforces this to an extent. It also would give the current races a boost, having an elder race join their ranks is a huge boon after all. Ogden is the only one on the surface, true, however in Arah Explorable he says the rest of the dwarves are still fighting Primordus and the Destroyers. Also, this quote implies that only Jalis and his Vanguard charged off into the Depths, the rest of the dwarves when they turned to stone guard the exits:

“They act as guardians of the Depths of Tyria, fighting off the minions of Primordus and denying them passage to the surface. As such, they are hardly ever seen.”

A. Charr are not focused on War, the Charr don’t want war with Norn, Asura, Slyvari and they don’t really care about those races. They don’t like human because humans took ascalon from them, therefore they have a reason to hate them. The only real “war” between charr and human was ebonhawke and that’s because it’s the last human city in ascalon which the charr don’t like. The charr never promised their life to a war with the humans and nothing else. Comparing the conflicts between Charr and Human and the Dwarves are completely different. Again, the fact that you say a players story can be trying to change the dwarves minds, the dwarf WANT to be that way. They underwent the rite willing, nobody forced them. So who’s to say that all of a sudden now they want to change the way they are, maybe they’re happy down there constantly fighting the destroyers in which case I see no real story besides the one you stated, if Anet want the dwarves to be like that.

B. The dwarve already know how to fight everything else, it’s not only destroyers that they had faught before turning to stone. So again unless Anet came up with some new way to create “new” dwarves that didn’t have any fighting experiance I don’t see a way around this. Unless they wanted to do something similar to how WoW did Deathknights, but I don’t see that happening.

D. In my opinion I believe having the dwarves as a playable race would take away that elder race feeling of them. How they’re so “epic” that they’ve been off defending us from the destroyers for 200+ years. I think it’d be much better to be fighting besides them, then fighting as them. Like when I first came across Ogden again during my story mission, it was such a great feeling to see him after all these years since GW1 it felt like a special moment. If anet opened them up as a playable race I think that’d turn into “Heh, they’re just another race to play with nothing special about them” which isn’t true. Others disagree and that’s fine, but that’s how i feel.

In Eye of the North, all of the Dwarves were turned to stone. So if you consider petrification to be dead, then yes; they are dead. However, if the “statues/statuettes” of the dwarves were to become animated, then perhaps we would have a playable/NPC stone race.

And that’s enough of letting this lie untended to. Smacks thread