Guild Wars 2

(We’ve moved past Dual Specialization in GW2 and have gone further with a possible solution. Feel free to read the OP, as I express some of my concerns/problems with the current state of things )
We all know Dual Specialization from GW1.
- It was what made us able to come up with the weirdest and most awesome of builds every once in a while, when experimenting with them.

But to get it into GW2, how should it be done?
- I personally would like to see it, and let me explain why before the “This is GW2 not GW!” comments race in to put me in my place.

I have now and then experienced “pickupable” (yeah, now I’m just making up words) weapons throughout Tyria, and some of them have combinations of different Profession skills. The “Statue’s Sword” in Diessa Plateau has a combination of Guardian, Warrior and Thief skills, and it’s awesome using such a special weapon.

So if we have a primary profession and a secondary, then we can combo up the different skills for the weapon, if both professions have skills for that particular weapon.

How about it? Maybe adding in more skills now we’re at it?
- What’s the opinion of the players?

GW2 is not GW. Most likely reason this isn’t in game is because this would be a balancing nightmare. I bet 90% of people would dual class with thief for stealth or war for heal signet but I personally would want new ele diamond skin on next patch

I thought this was a thread about dueling. After reading your post twice, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Bevillian.1260:

I thought this was a thread about dueling. After reading your post twice, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Dual, not duel.

I think ANet is going in a different direction with GW2. I wouldn’t expect to see Dual Profession builds in GW2.

Heta.8629:

GW2 is not GW. Most likely reason this isn’t in game is because this would be a balancing nightmare. I bet 90% of people would dual class with thief for stealth or war for heal signet but I personally would want new ele diamond skin on next patch

GW2 is still its’ sequel.
- They had a unique system and something that they could be proud of.
Sure, there were balancing issues, and personally, I wouldn’t need that many skills, but a game is not about balancing, it’s about having fun (and so is GW2, if I am not too mistaken).
- I would have expected them to take the system of GW1 and showing us that “Hey, we have learned something from this system and we’re trying to create something similar but with solutions to many of the problems that needs our attention the most.”

- Balance? Sure, it has to be there, but balancing a game 100% is impossible… or rather, due to the JCPenny’s Effect, seems impossible.
- Basically, if you have two characters of the same professions, with the same stats and build, it can easily seem imbalanced if two players of different skill level is playing against one another.
If one is incredibly hardcore and the other just casual, the hardcore player will slaughter the newbie (in GW2 forums that can easily be translated into “This guy beat me, make me stronger!” – but when the newbie gets stronger, so does the hardcore… endless cycle, very bad, break game, pity). – Not always the case, but can very well be.

Personally, I’m a PvE player, but I understand the issue of balancing in PvP. It’s not fun knowing that certain skills or weapons are useless (I’ve been in a downed state with my Guardian, and I used my second ability which should knock back anyone trying to slay me, but this warrior just waltzed right up and used “Finish Him” and my knock back had no effect, even though he was standing right in front of me using the ability… I was not amused) – It makes you feel like that you are powerless to even combat your opponents and thus one might think “Why even bother?”.

- When it comes to the MMO aspect and building a character in GW2, I feel limited and as though the game has nothing to offer me.
- GW1 had an incredible ability to never reach that end, because there were tons of different builds to go for (and a bit overwhelming, yeah, but in comparison to GW2 it was amazing). Even after I had reached level cap my character were still progressing and learning new skills and abilities.
- In GW2 I’m already done with finding new ways to slay skritt by level 40-50 and the rest of the levels are just gating me from level 80 content and stuff up there.

I think it’s a pity, and I think that when ANet had something of their own in GW1 they should’ve expanded upon that. They must have learned something from all those years of GW1.
- I still think that GW2 can break through. I think that they can improve the DE system, the storytelling and the combat to make it more fun for longer than just a few moments before getting repetitive.
- The Guild Wars Universe is incredible and full of rich lore that still has to see the light of day in GW2.
I’d like to be as invested in it as I was with GW1.

Heta.8629:

GW2 is not GW. Most likely reason this isn’t in game is because this would be a balancing nightmare.

GW1 was a balancing nightmare. There were over 1600 skills across all professions, including PVE-only skills. There was no way they could ever come close to balancing all of them if they tried, and the added problem of secondary professions only complicated matters.

During early GW2 development, they considered keeping secondary classes but ended up removing them. I completely understand why they did this, and it’s the reason that all of our skills and traits do not get buffed or nerfed every week like they did in GW1. This is good thing. If you decided to take a 6 month break from GW1, you could expect to come back and find that your entire skill bar worked differently than it used to. It got really, really ridiculous.

There is still plenty of room for good, homegrown builds in GW2. Just use your imagination and make sure to take advantage of different gear loadouts, sigils, runes, etc. If you copy and paste your build from a site somewhere thinking it’s the ONLY thing that works, you haven’t fully explored the potential of your class.

Granted there are less options than there were in GW1. But like I said, in a roundabout way, it’s a good thing.

New skills for GW2 would be great, however, and Colin Johannsen already stated that they are coming soon, so I’m looking forward to that.

It isn’t new information to me that GW1 was a nightmare to balance, but I also think that restricting too much simply drains the fun out of playing the game.
- I’m more into more customization options for weapon skills, because I personally do not like the “I’m a whirlwind” kind of skills. I’d rather have the option of AoE skills instead of just one in that regard.

Sinifair.1026:

I’m more into more customization options for weapon skills, because I personally do not like the “I’m a whirlwind” kind of skills. I’d rather have the option of AoE skills instead of just one in that regard.

I’m not sure what you mean by customization options, but I do know that they are going to add more weapon proficiencies for each class. I imagine this will provide more options for mainhand/offhand combinations, which will help diversify things a little bit.

Just a few question:

• With regards to heals, utilities and Elites, would the Primary profession have access to some of these, or is it purely ?
• With regards to traits, would the primary profession have access to the four trait lines that don’t have the profession specific stat (i.e. Burst Reduction on Warrior)

PeterThomas.7243:

I’m not sure what you mean by customization options, but I do know that they are going to add more weapon proficiencies for each class. I imagine this will provide more options for mainhand/offhand combinations, which will help diversify things a little bit.

I’m the kind of guy who has favorite weapons, and would like to use said weapon as much as I possibly could.
- A Guardian with a Greatsword (Yeah, I know that games nowadays have turned into “What’s the most effecient?”)

Sure, new weapons to switch to adds variety and more diversity to the game, but that doesn’t help, if I’ve built my character and his lore as a Two Handed wielder.
- More skills are needed, and not necessarily as Dual Spec, that was merely an idea from the first game that I kinda liked and played around with alot.

As said, I’d like more “AoE skills in that regard” meaning that if I could choose from a set of AoE skills for that particular slot and not just be forced to use what some dev thought could be fun… some sort of blue whirlwind (I don’t know, but there is no technique for Greatswords that require the whirlwind. Never liked it… and WoW had it… just to get the GW2 fanboys against it as well. :P )

I’d like to be able to “build” my character with the weapon I want, and be able to choose how he uses that weapon.
- I merely fell upon a sword that had different skills from different professions and had some great fun with the skill setup on said sword.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Just a few question:

• With regards to heals, utilities and Elites, would the Primary profession have access to some of these, or is it purely ?
• With regards to traits, would the primary profession have access to the four trait lines that don’t have the profession specific stat (i.e. Burst Reduction on Warrior)

You wouldn’t need the other traits, really… or rather, you could choose which one of the bonusses that you want on the build for both professions (or have a limited set of bonusses from the secondary profession among those of the primary one).
- Elites from the Primary. The same for healing abilities, I’d say… but that depends. They’re all pretty balanced to me.
- Utility should be for both.

That would be my immediate response, but game testing will probably show which skills should be restricted for balancing purposes.

But, TheDaiBish, the fact that the abilities we use in the beginning to fight skritt are the same we use to fight dragons later…
- Doesn’t that seem odd to you? It doesn’t feel like the character in play is getting stronger or progresses. Character progression peaks in the low levels, because that is where you discover the new abilities of the profession… and then you’re stuck with that.

I know GW1 was a balancing nightmare, but the thing that made me fall in love with that game more than any other MMO I had played, was that even after hitting level cap, my character was still progressing (and still is today).
- Trial and error was awesome. Sometimes I’d make a build that seemed nice purely skill and gameplay-wise (Warrior and Assassin, being able to jump between foes and attacking… pure fun) but wasn’t practical when put against the forces of Tyria.
- So, sure, some builds were useless, but the feeling of progression was awesome and GW2 just can’t beat that being this restricted.

- I’m looking forward to more skills someday, and sure, I’ll try switching weapons… (my Ghastly Greatsword shall remain in my possession, though) and sure, it gives the game a burst of fun for some time, but it grows stale yet again later on.
- GW2’s skill system is missing something. It’s not bad, but I feel that it needs to be expanded one way or the other (and hey, trying out that sword I talked about was fun, so why not suggest it. – But yeah, your comment is definitely an issue. Who knows? We might come up with a whole new suggestion in the end).

PeterThomas.7243:

Heta.8629:

GW2 is not GW. Most likely reason this isn’t in game is because this would be a balancing nightmare.

GW1 was a balancing nightmare. There were over 1600 skills across all professions, including PVE-only skills. There was no way they could ever come close to balancing all of them if they tried, and the added problem of secondary professions only complicated matters.

During early GW2 development, they considered keeping secondary classes but ended up removing them. I completely understand why they did this, and it’s the reason that all of our skills and traits do not get buffed or nerfed every week like they did in GW1. This is good thing. If you decided to take a 6 month break from GW1, you could expect to come back and find that your entire skill bar worked differently than it used to. It got really, really ridiculous.

There is still plenty of room for good, homegrown builds in GW2. Just use your imagination and make sure to take advantage of different gear loadouts, sigils, runes, etc. If you copy and paste your build from a site somewhere thinking it’s the ONLY thing that works, you haven’t fully explored the potential of your class.

Granted there are less options than there were in GW1. But like I said, in a roundabout way, it’s a good thing.

New skills for GW2 would be great, however, and Colin Johannsen already stated that they are coming soon, so I’m looking forward to that.

I don’t necessarily think it is a good thing to have less balancing issues if it translates into less fun. I have actually just started playing Guild Wars and now I can hardly bring myself back to complete a daily. The game is just more fun, and right now the story telling is much more interesting (sorry Scarlet). Sometimes it seems like they are trying to put Guild Wars 2 on automation. The idea of balance is a ridiculous concept when you are talking about horizontal progression which is what I thought Guild Wars 2 was supposed to be about. If progression is not vertical whether one skill is equal to another skill is going to be a matter of opinion, and there will always be skills that are useless.

I belive they are using some kind of tracking system are they not? What skills are used the most? What traits are used the most? All in the attempt to make it so everyone is using every skill and trait equally? Sounds great in theory but I doubt it is ever going to happen. Now if they gave us more options … more diversity … something seems out of hand, nerf it and people will find something new.

I really really hope there are new skills coming. I have been holding out for nearly a year for the “horizontal” progression we were promised and I have yet to see it materialize, and I have begun to lose hope and patience.

Sinifair.1026:

- Elites from the Primary.
The same for healing abilities, I’d say… but that depends. They’re all pretty balanced to me.
- Utility should be for both.

Ok, imagine this.
Mace shield guardian/warrior
6 slot healing signet. (392 regen per second)
7+8 slot damage reduction signets
9 sot healing power signet
10 slot guard invul

taking toughness and mace empowerment traits and maxing vitality+toughness lines.

now, currently said guardian can get his virtue up to around 300 healing per second by getting 2000 ish healing power.

then add in the food that gives another 88 health per second

and dolyak runes to get another 30 per second.

now taking into account that the guardian will now have just over 800 health per second and some really nice toughness and the two signets reducing damage by their respective percentages.

This “tank” could pretty much live through anything. not taking into account that the dolyak runes could be changed out for runes of dwayna, giving him regen on hit, adding something around 380 more health per second…..

can you see why this would be an issue to try and balance?

you would have to reduce the numbers on everything just in case people decided to run this.

even running melandru runes, and lemongrass food to reduce conditions by over half, this would be ridicules.

Dual profession is something the game didn’t end-up being balanced around, so please don’t ask the dev team to have to them go back through every ability and change everything just to fit the previous games “unique” classing system.

A-net have clearly stated that there will be no Dual professions and why. They did so even Before the release or shor after I (dont remember when)!

And I agree with them!

I would quote, but I’m on me phone.

If proession and variety are the main issues, then why not:

• new skills / traits exclusive to that profession?
• customisabe skills (extra range, increased damage when hitting a foe with a condition, increased crit damage vs stunned foes ect)
• a more flexible trait system?

It’d probably be easier to balance (Skullcrack Warrior with Shadowstep / Lightning Flash, for example) as well as increase viability (why take most of the utilities from other professions (cantraps, deceptions ect) when you can’t increase their effectiveness, when new skills could be added and, providing it’s balanced, be more viable?)

Hastings.4068:

I belive they are using some kind of tracking system are they not? What skills are used the most? What traits are used the most? All in the attempt to make it so everyone is using every skill and trait equally? Sounds great in theory but I doubt it is ever going to happen. Now if they gave us more options … more diversity … something seems out of hand, nerf it and people will find something new.

I agree with you. But I also believe that the players have something to do with it. After playing the game for a few hours, lazy people will end up on map chat and ask “Whats the best build for [class]?” Or they go to a build site and find the latest meta build, without bothering to develop an effective build on their own. Far as I’m concerned, the only reason builds get abused is because people lack imagination.

My own necro build is highly unusual, has been overpowered since launch, and I’ve NEVER seen it on ANY build sites. Since it’s not widely used, it’s never been nerfed. If it WAS widely used, it WOULD be nerfed. But because it’s not, it’s actually been recently buffed to encourage people to use the weapons and skills that I currently do. Go figure.

GW1 was the same way. My Ritualist build got me to Rank 5 gladiator in a short time, and that was before they eased up the rules for getting rank points (you had to get 10 wins in a row to get a SINGLE point). But I never saw my build on PVX wiki or anywhere else… Because it didn’t use an elite. People would laugh at me if I shared my build with them. But it could spike 450+ damage and add burning within 3 seconds. It had great defense, anti melee, was self-sufficient for energy. It took them about four years to get around to nerfing any of the skills I used.

Hastings.4068:

I really really hope there are new skills coming. I have been holding out for nearly a year for the “horizontal” progression we were promised and I have yet to see it materialize, and I have begun to lose hope and patience.

Well, we got some new healing skills now, so that’s a start.

They tested dual professions during the development of GW2 and realised that it wasn’t feasible. So… There’s your answer ;D

I wouldn’t hold my breath on this ever happening. The current existing professions are horribly unbalanced. throwing dual professions into the mix would just make it that much worse.

Yeah I wouldn’t hope for dual professions either.
What I would hope for though, is a pool of weapon skills for each profession+weapon combo that could be swapped out like utility skills (also, more utility and elite skills in general).
That would add a lot of diversity without having to get too crazy with balancing (I hope).

Edit:

Sinifair, I would recommend changing the post topic since it appears dual professions is a no…

Thank you all for the feedback.
- I can assure you that I know of the balancing issues and such, but it was just a thought I got from a “pickupable” weapon.

- Personally, I’m not much of a PvP’er in MMO’s, I’m more of a PvE and lore/story guy who enjoys that kind of content.
- As stated I’ve a favorite weapon I like to use, but the skills aren’t my favorites by far.

I will agree (as I’ve mostly done in GW2) that Dual Specialization in GW2 is not the best answer… maybe if it were to be only weapon skills, but yeah, lets leave it the possiblity of Dual Specialization in GW2. It’s ruled out, due to some pretty amazingly overpowered builds (I think Orthas kinda shut my mouth entirely on that subject. Your point is well taken and understandable)

- But yet again, what could an alternative be?
TheDaiBish, I agree wholeheartedly with your suggestion to more skills and traits exclusively to the professions (you’ll see that I’ve suggested something along those lines myself as an alternative solution).
- PvE-wise the game grows stale quickly. The skills I use to kill skritt are also used to slay Dragons. Hehe.
- But that’s not the issue. The issue is that the character doesn’t seem to grow after a certain point in the game, and we haven’t reached level cap yet there, have we?

I shall provide some alternatives below this comment (and I’ll change the name of the topic, since we’ve gone beyond the point of Dual Specialization in this discussion)

TheDaiBish.9735:

I would quote, but I’m on me phone.

If proession and variety are the main issues, then why not:

• new skills / traits exclusive to a profession for each profession.
• customisabe skills (extra range, increased damage when hitting a foe with a condition, increased crit damage vs stunned foes ect)
• a more flexible trait system.

It’d probably be easier to balance (Skullcrack Warrior with Shadowstep / Lightning Flash, for example) as well as increase viability (why take most of the utilities from other professions (cantraps, deceptions ect) when you can’t increase their effectiveness, when new skills could be added and, providing it’s balanced, be more viable?)

The points here (thank you for those DaiBish) I think are probably the best way to go with it.
- And Keyno, yes, a pool of skills that can be swapped (and with that I’d love the option to remove the arrow above each skill, once I’ve made a build I like and feel like I won’t be swapping it out anytime soon)

What is the opinion of these suggestions here?

• new skills / traits exclusive to each profession (new weapon skills, mind you)
• customisabe skills (extra range, increased damage when hitting a foe with a condition, increased crit damage vs stunned foes ect)
• a more flexible trait system.

I agree with more flexible trait system. They should be simple and easy to deal with like attribute points in Gw1 so it’s possible to properly switch builds on the fly.

Having the skIlls themselves be customizable, I think is opening a can of worms. People may then be asking for every single skill to be customizable which would be a lot to do. I think it would be great if it were something only for elite skills though.

Personally, I don’t really see the need for new traits. I’d be satisfied enough with plenty of new weapon skills.

I have an idea for weapon skills.
- My example goes thus: The Guardian, which I am playing, has, of course, 5 skills with the Greatsword. The Auto attack pretty much goes as it should, but skill 2, which is the Whirlwind attack, could be defined as a AoE attack. What if we had a selection of AoE skills to choose from for skill 2, and the same for the other skills? A selection of skills from the category in that skill slot, and the different skills would be pretty much balanced within the profession itself?
- Instead of Whirlwind, I could select an attack much like the Mesmer’s skill five, which is a big swing forward. Instead of knocking back foes, it could damage those in front of me in one big blow. Not being fond of the Whirlwind attack, I’d like to be able to switch over to another AoE skill.

Thats a good system for structuring it. If that’s the way it’s done though, I hope there are enough skills for each slot. Otherwise this could just turn into another annoying form of restriction. But I do think you’re right that it would help maintain balance easily.