Guild Wars 2

GW2’s boss battles need proper tells

One of the biggest problems with GW’s boss battles at the moment, is that their attacks are really hard to read. The only thing players try to respond to, is red circles appearing on the ground. But why do we have red circles to begin with? It’s because bosses don’t have proper audio cues and visual effects to indicate an incoming attack.

Audio cues

When a boss is about to do an attack that does massive damage, have him yell out something specific. Don’t force us to look for red circles on the ground, or text appearing in the bottom left corner of the screen. Just have him announce his attack loudly and clearly. Case in point, the above video. Watch for the moment when the boss unleashes his massive wave of fire that fills the whole room, and yells out “BEHOLD!”. It is impossible to miss that cue, and that is how it should be.

Visual cues

If a boss does some sort of AOE attack, have very clear flashy effects appear on the ground that you can respond to. For example, massive beams of light that erupt from the ground. Or a clear bright projectile homing in on a player. Too often are we left wondering what exactly it is we are dodging.

Wind up time

Give bosses a proper wind up time. Massive attacks should not be instantaneous. Give us a delay so that we can see what the boss is doing, and respond accordingly. If the boss immediately unleashes a barrage of missiles all over the room, there’s no way to respond to that. Make bosses have a long animation for attacks that need to be noticed. A golem could first have an animation where it starts channeling power, before unleashing a barrage of missiles. A giant could first roar loudly while shaking his fists, before charging at the players.

Clear difference between light and heavy attacks

Enough with the red rings. The red rings are really hard to read, especially if they pulse. And there is no clear distinction between red rings for attacks that hardly do damage at all, and attacks that instantly kill you. Make us watch the actual battle, and not watch color-coded rings appearing on the ground.

Hit radius

Bosses should not reach beyond their actual visible hit radius. If a boss swings it’s club, the range should not be double the length of that club. If a boss fire 5 missiles, don’t make 30 red rings appear all over the screen. The visual cues should match the range of the attack. See the above video, none of the attacks hit outside the visible radius.

Another good example of proper boss tells:

I have never once had an issue identifying any mods tell when it was about to do something massive, boss or otherwise.

The only time this is an issue is in open world against normal sized bosses because you can’t actually see them, let alone their tells. But in a dungeon with a limit of four other people it’s very difficult to put enough particle effects on them to block their tells.

As far as I’m concerned anyone who complains about this subject just isn’t observant enough and is simply complaining about their own shortcomings, not any lack in the actual game.

Ok, I watched the videos after replying and all I can say is, those were both TERRIBLE fights. Please tell me you’re not trying to claim that GW2 should actually be like that.

Another example of a game with bosses with proper tells and (for the most part) clear hit boxes would be Monster Hunter.
While I can agree on the hitboxes in some cases (hell, it still annoys me that you can get hurt slightly outside of red circles) I cant say that I’ve had many problems with boss telegraphs in GW2, but then again, I dont really do many dungeons.
Perhaps of you posted examples of bosses that you felt had poor tells and hitboxes?

Kal Spiro.9745:

I have never once had an issue identifying any mods tell when it was about to do something massive, boss or otherwise.

The only time this is an issue is in open world against normal sized bosses because you can’t actually see them, let alone their tells. But in a dungeon with a limit of four other people it’s very difficult to put enough particle effects on them to block their tells.

As far as I’m concerned anyone who complains about this subject just isn’t observant enough and is simply complaining about their own shortcomings, not any lack in the actual game.

Ok, I watched the videos after replying and all I can say is, those were both TERRIBLE fights. Please tell me you’re not trying to claim that GW2 should actually be like that.

you knitpicked a little too much there. What I took out of it and agree with is that sometimes the red AOE circles are kind of lame and the hit radius is not much better. I dont mind the tells on the massive bosses (world bosses need to be harder IMO) but it would be nice to see some movement away from the red circles…

Kal Spiro.9745:

Ok, I watched the videos after replying and all I can say is, those were both TERRIBLE fights. Please tell me you’re not trying to claim that GW2 should actually be like that.

You are clearly missing the point. What I wanted to show is an example of boss battles where the bosses actually yell out when they are about to do a dangerous attack.

None of the GW2 bosses do this. Sure, if you pay close attention you may see what a boss is about to do, but my point is: The effect could be so much clearer!

Even Gigantus Lupicus, which admittedly is a boss with the clearest tells…. but the tells still are very subtle compared to bosses in other games, such as Castlevania or Monster Hunter. The issue here isn’t that bosses don’t telegraph their attacks, but that they telegraph them poorly. It could be done so much clearer. Give them sounds, give them flashy effects, and give us more time to respond to it.

Castlevania’s boss battles are leagues above any boss fight in GW2, and that’s a game for the PS2. I’m not talking about the graphics here, or the difficulty. I’m talking about the game mechanics, and the communication with the player. You always know EXACTLY when to dodge. No red circles needed to communicate what an attack will do. You’ll never be killed due to trial and error. God of War would also be a good example. Making proper boss tells isn’t that hard, but they should put more focus on it.

Poorly telegraphed attacks can never be an excuse for artificial difficulty. Make the fights them selves hard, but make the tells clear as can be. Take for example Gigantus Lupicus.

Just look at it. When ever he raises his arm, you have to dodge. But he doesn’t yell out anything. There is hardly any visual effect on the ground, or on the boss himself. It is hard to tell this move apart from anything else the boss does, unless you are very familiar with the boss battle. How can the player know that this particular attack is more devastating than his kicks, or his breath weapon? And why doesn’t his breath weapon have a proper sound to clue you in that it is coming?

Now here is a great boss battle. You can clearly see the energy waves coming. And when the boss electrifies the ground, there is no doubt you don’t want to be standing on the floor, and you have plenty of time to get out of the way.

It is important to let the player know which attacks are more dangerous than others, purely through sound and visuals. And you must be able to see them clearly through all the other effects that other players are throwing around.

Kal Spiro.9745:

But in a dungeon with a limit of four other people it’s very difficult to put enough particle effects on them to block their tells.

So you never play with a guardian, or your guardian just doesn’t use Virtue of Justice?

So, what you’re saying is that, the bosses in GW2, probably the easiest MMO on the market right now are too hard for you? Have you seen these forums, people are almost begging for more challenging content that isn’t bloated health bars and more damage…

I’m sorry to be that guy, but learn to play. Really, there is only 1 boss in the game that has a bad windup time for a bad attack and that’s Mossman on his axe throw attack. You can complain about that one, all the other bosses in this game are a joke.

Bright.9160:

So, what you’re saying is that, the bosses in GW2, probably the easiest MMO on the market right now are too hard for you? Have you seen these forums, people are almost begging for more challenging content that isn’t bloated health bars and more damage…

I’m sorry to be that guy, but learn to play. Really, there is only 1 boss in the game that has a bad windup time for a bad attack and that’s Mossman on his axe throw attack. You can complain about that one, all the other bosses in this game are a joke.

Don’t respond if you haven’t actually read the whole post. Don’t just quickly browse over the title, and assume you know what this topic is about. Actually take some time to read it.

This is not about the difficulty of bosses. It’s the fact that all bosses in the game could use better telegraphed attacks. The difference between the boss tells in the videos, and the boss tells in GW2 is enormous. Poorly telegraphed attacks are no substitute for difficulty. Make the fights themselves hard, but make the moves clear as day.

Look at this battle again.

The very first attack the boss does has a proper visual and sound to clue you in, plus some slow down, so the player has time to dodge. NO boss in GW2 does such a thing this blatantly, and they should!

Part of the skill involved in GW2 is knowing the boss’s tells and knowing when to dodge.

I read your post, I knew what it was about. I already think the bosses in this game are way too easy and their windups are just fine. You’re asking to make them even easier.

My points stands: L2P.

But like I said, that is not difficulty. If making the moves of the bosses clearer, makes them too easy, then the difficulty is coming from the wrong place. Difficulty should be there despite clearly telegraphed moves. It is the battle itself that should be challenging, and not the reading of the screen. Trial and error is bad.

I’m not asking for bosses to be made easier. I’m asking the designers to learn from better boss battles in other games. GW2’s boss battles are really poorly designed (with the exception of the recent Molten Facility boss fight).

Even some boss battles on the classic NES had better telegraphed attacks:

It is currently the only difficulty we have though… Outside of artificial difficulty in the form of bloated health bars and more damage… Oh wait, that’s not difficult, that’s just tedious…

Bright.9160:

It is currently the only difficulty we have though… Outside of artificial difficulty in the form of bloated health bars and more damage… Oh wait, that’s not difficult, that’s just tedious…

Here’s what I don’t understand. You seem to realize that better telegraphed attacks would make many of GW2’s boss fights much easier. So at some level, you understand that they are poorly telegraphed. Sure, you can memorize them, but without the poor communication, most of these boss fights would hardly be any challenge at all.

And you’re willing to defend that position?

I’ve played Demons Souls, and that game is brutally hard…. but not due to badly telegraphed attacks. In Demons Souls every move is as clear as day, but it is the battles themselves that are challenging. The reason I’m saying this is, I don’t want everything made easier. So the L2p argument really doesn’t fly.

Making the attacks more clear would improve any boss battle surely?

Kal Spiro earlier missed the point entirely when watching the Castlevania video, but let me tell you, that boss battle is better than any boss battle in GW2 in so many ways:

• You can clearly see what is going on.
• You can SEE and HEAR every attack coming
• You have enough time to dodge or block every attack.
• The difficulty of the fight comes from the fight alone, and not from bad game play mechanics.

I understand both of the points given.

Bright.9160
He is saying that due to that the boss mechanics ARN’T difficult right now that these boss cues will make bosses just more easier in its current state.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512
I agree about the cues and for newbies the current system is hard until they have learn the current mechanics and then you know the rest of the drill (that is if someone gives them the time of day to learn it)

The only really nice mechanic boss I have encountered is lupicus in ARAH and players dont like to take newbies along due to that this boss isnt easy and Dodge is your biggest ally and I have seen many fail here (I mean the only warning you get that the boss enters phase 2 is that he starts evading your attacks, what if your not attacking at that moment the boss but the grubs?)

Thing is you cant implement better boss cues without upgrading the mechanics and vica versa.

Torca.5162:

The only really nice mechanic boss I have encountered is lupicus in ARAH and players dont like to take newbies along due to that this boss isnt easy and Dodge is your biggest ally and I have seen many fail here (I mean the only warning you get that the boss enters phase 2 is that he starts evading your attacks, what if your not attacking at that moment the boss but the grubs?)

Thing is you can implement better boss cues without upgrading the mechanics and vica versa.

I agree entirely. Lupicus is one of the few good boss battles in the game, but like every other boss, is needs better tells as well. The phase thing is indeed poorly communicated. All they needed to do, is make the boss glow some kind of color. That’s it. It’s that simple. With the grubs, all they needed to do is give the boss some build up, and lightning bolts flashing, before summoning it. Add another effect on the ground before it hits, and you’re done.

Lupicus is one of the few bosses that has good mechanics despite having poorly telegraphed attacks.

I’m willing to defend my position because I’m of the opinion that boss telegraphs are fine as they are right now, outside of Mossman to be honest. He’s just an annoying little kitten… But that bossfight was made with that in mind. He constantly spawns wolves that die by a couple of hits, so the fight was intended to make you go into downed state a couple of times. That’s why there’s rally fodder.

Now, on to the lupi fight. His signs are incredibly easy. He has some of the longest windups there are. For example, his “I’ll slap yo kitten ” swipe attack in phase 2 is probably the easiest to dodge. Oh, and his phasing thing is just fine. The fact that you said

(I mean the only warning you get that the boss enters phase 2 is that he starts evading your attacks, what if your not attacking at that moment the boss but the grubs?)

means you’re doing something wrong. On most fights I do with him, there are no grubs, because the people I play with know how to dodge. And if they fail to dodge, they just move away and kill the grub on their own.

Did you know you can even dodge his dome if you time it right? Although, in a proper lupi fight, there shouldn’t be any dome at all, because he only spawns the domes if you’re moving. So, if people just stand still, and only dodge when he does his “pew pew” attack or he lifts up in the air, there should be no domes to begin with. But it’s possible. I have to admit though, of all the attacks in this game you can dodge, the lupi dome is probably one of the hardest, because your timing has to be absolutely perfect. A split second too late, and you’ll be bounced back…

TL;DR bosses are already too easy, I don’t want this game dumbed down even more.

But do you agree that the telegraphing of the attacks in the example videos I posted are more clear? Because that’s really what this is about.

Regardless if you can spot the attacks of bosses (which eventually through sheer repetition you will learn), they could be so much clearer.

Bright.9160:

I’m willing to defend my position because I’m of the opinion that boss telegraphs are fine as they are right now, outside of Mossman to be honest. He’s just an annoying little kitten… But that bossfight was made with that in mind. He constantly spawns wolves that die by a couple of hits, so the fight was intended to make you go into downed state a couple of times. That’s why there’s rally fodder.

Now, on to the lupi fight. His signs are incredibly easy. He has some of the longest windups there are. For example, his “I’ll slap yo kitten ” swipe attack in phase 2 is probably the easiest to dodge. Oh, and his phasing thing is just fine. The fact that you said

(I mean the only warning you get that the boss enters phase 2 is that he starts evading your attacks, what if your not attacking at that moment the boss but the grubs?)

means you’re doing something wrong. On most fights I do with him, there are no grubs, because the people I play with know how to dodge. And if they fail to dodge, they just move away and kill the grub on their own.

Did you know you can even dodge his dome if you time it right? Although, in a proper lupi fight, there shouldn’t be any dome at all, because he only spawns the domes if you’re moving. So, if people just stand still, and only dodge when he does his “pew pew” attack or he lifts up in the air, there should be no domes to begin with. But it’s possible. I have to admit though, of all the attacks in this game you can dodge, the lupi dome is probably one of the hardest, because your timing has to be absolutely perfect. A split second too late, and you’ll be bounced back…

TL;DR bosses are already too easy, I don’t want this game dumbed down even more.

Well I didnt even know that domes do not spawn if you just stand still. Lupicus is easy for you due to that you KNOW the mechanics and you play with players that you are comfortable with and thus playing with newbies will only frustrate you. Yes lupicus does give signs about certain attacks, but he is big and my screen arnt always facing him fully so that I may miss that slight indication of his next attack. I only play with 1 friend, the rest of our group are pugs thus it adds a chalenge that you dont seem to have in your dungeon.

But like I said, certain bosses needs mechanisms change, but you cant change the mechanism and not do anything about cues. It creates bad experiences for players doing those dungeons for the 1st time and then they prefer not to return and TOO experience players have an attitude towards players that just wants to learn and they get shouted at because they were unable or not aware of the subtle cue that the boss gave that he is about to attack

I am experienced at lupicus and can dodge him quite well, but I am taking in consideration how the utter new players feel when they 1st enter a dungeon like that, I was very fortunate that me and my friend had an absolutly wonderfull/patient guide that showed us the mechanics cause he saw we weren’t bad players, just new to the dungeon. How many were this lucky?

What you really should want to see in a boss battle, is when he hits you, you say to yourself: “I really should have seen that coming and dodged it”

And not: “What the hell just happened?!”

This happens too often in GW2. You can memorize anything in the game by heart, but that doesn’t mean the players are getting a fair challenge. That is trial and error, not difficulty.

One of the few bosses in GW2 that gets this right, is the Jade Maw. Players receive a clear icon when they are being targeted, and the boss has very clear attacks. There is NO excuse for other bosses to not be more clear what they are doing.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

But do you agree that the telegraphing of the attacks in the example videos I posted are more clear? Because that’s really what this is about.

Regardless if you can spot the attacks of bosses (which eventually through sheer repetition you will learn), they could be so much clearer.

I guess they are more clear, but I still disagree with your premise that GW2 bosses should be more clear, because outside of a few examples, you can dodge/interrupt any attack from a boss that might harm you.

Torca.5162:

Well I didnt even know that domes do not spawn if you just stand still. Lupicus is easy for you due to that you KNOW the mechanics and you play with players that you are comfortable with and thus playing with newbies will only frustrate you. Yes lupicus does give signs about certain attacks, but he is big and my screen arnt always facing him fully so that I may miss that slight indication of his next attack. I only play with 1 friend, the rest of our group are pugs thus it adds a chalenge that you dont seem to have in your dungeon.

First off, I’m in a teaching guild, I’ve taught people how to melee lupi plenty of times. All I require from people that want to learn is that they listen to what I say and try their best. Eventually, they’ll improve. I’m just never taking newbie mesmers in a lupi fight anymore though. I’ve had my fair share of that, and it’s not happening again. Want to learn to melee lupi? Fine, come on your warrior and I’ll explain it all. I might sound elitist, but I usually have the patience of a saint when it comes to teaching stuff to people.

But like I said, certain bosses needs mechanisms change, but you cant change the mechanism and not do anything about cues. It creates bad experiences for players doing those dungeons for the 1st time and then they prefer not to return and TOO experience players have an attitude towards players that just wants to learn and they get shouted at because they were unable or not aware of the subtle cue that the boss gave that he is about to attack

So what you’re saying is that bosses should be so easy that everyone can defeat them first try? What kind of rubbish is that? The current GW2 playerbase is bad enough as it is, you want to cater to bad players even more? There should be content you can’t beat on first try. Otherwise, you might as well just hand people their reward for just zoning in to the dungeon… I’ve had it with this “ehmergurd, GW2 is hard, plz nurf” attitude I see all the time. Learn to play for crying out loud. The ‘hard core’ PvE’ers are getting treated like trash already, and you want to take away what little challenge there is in this game?

I am experienced at lupicus and can dodge him quite well, but I am taking in consideration how the utter new players feel when they 1st enter a dungeon like that, I was very fortunate that me and my friend had an absolutly wonderfull/patient guide that showed us the mechanics cause he saw we weren’t bad players, just new to the dungeon. How many were this lucky?

Well, all you need to do is go to youtube and search for some of Strife’s video’s. He explains every single mechanic there is in detail. I mean, that’s how I learned at first.
Also, I’d like to refer to my previous point: not everything should be beatable on first try. It makes for a bad game design.

I half agree with the original poster. There is poor use of audio clues on many bosses. I noticed this the most for Simin on path4 of Arah who has different healing/timing during her fight but she always uses the same animations. She should speak and give audio clues towards her abilities. Lupicus should give an audio indication for stage changes too. In fact more bosses should have multiple stages and if/when they do they should have good audio clues.

On the other hand, there often doesn’t need to be a big audio clue for attacks since players can already deal with the current animations. I would prefer a fix to the graphical effects (burning) that can entirely obscure a boss, their animations, and even their facing.

Stooperdale.3560:

I would prefer a fix to the graphical effects (burning) that can entirely obscure a boss, their animations, and even their facing.

This I agree with though. The particle effects on Virtue of Justice are just terrible. I’ve been downed by Lupi’s swipe in the past because I just couldn’t see anything but a 30ft tall ball of fire.

@Bright.9160
I never said to make it easier and even bad players can miss a cue as big as commet hitting them in the face. Like I said I can handle lupi and from my 1st post is that it would have been nice as Stooperdale.3560 stated that the boss gave a cue that he is changing phases. You keep refering that bigger cues will make boss easier, but how does little tiny cues (that still are there – you just know them) make the boss difficult? Cues are cues and if your able to see them then boss gets easier, but tiny cues makes newbies majority experiences terrible and I kicked players that gave other players a hard time cause they did not know when the boss is tapping his toe that he throws an instant downer on you.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Bright.9160:

It is currently the only difficulty we have though… Outside of artificial difficulty in the form of bloated health bars and more damage… Oh wait, that’s not difficult, that’s just tedious…

Here’s what I don’t understand. You seem to realize that better telegraphed attacks would make many of GW2’s boss fights much easier. So at some level, you understand that they are poorly telegraphed. Sure, you can memorize them, but without the poor communication, most of these boss fights would hardly be any challenge at all.

And you’re willing to defend that position?

I’ve played Demons Souls, and that game is brutally hard…. but not due to badly telegraphed attacks. In Demons Souls every move is as clear as day, but it is the battles themselves that are challenging. The reason I’m saying this is, I don’t want everything made easier. So the L2p argument really doesn’t fly.

Making the attacks more clear would improve any boss battle surely?

Kal Spiro earlier missed the point entirely when watching the Castlevania video, but let me tell you, that boss battle is better than any boss battle in GW2 in so many ways:

• You can clearly see what is going on.
• You can SEE and HEAR every attack coming
• You have enough time to dodge or block every attack.
• The difficulty of the fight comes from the fight alone, and not from bad game play mechanics.

I didn’t miss the point at all. Those were TERRIBLE fights. There was no skill at all. There is actually some level of skill in the GW2 fights because you can get it wrong. If you’re paying attention to the fight in GW2 you could easily flinch at the wrong move in anticipation of the tell you’re expecting. In your castlevania fights the only way to fail is to not be paying attention at all. Everything was absurdly telegraphed and announced and I can’t imagine anyone failing unless they themselves were already dead.

Again, no, GW2 telegraphs attacks perfectly. They’re not so obvious a braindead weasle could avoid them, while also being clear enough to spot if you’re actually looking for them.

Kal Spiro.9745:

In your castlevania fights the only way to fail is to not be paying attention at all. Everything was absurdly telegraphed and announced and I can’t imagine anyone failing unless they themselves were already dead.

Again, no, GW2 telegraphs attacks perfectly. They’re not so obvious a braindead weasle could avoid them, while also being clear enough to spot if you’re actually looking for them.

So what you are saying is, a player would have to be blind not to see an attack coming in Castlevania… which is exactly my point. It is all about skill, and responding to what you see. Not about trying to memorize the boss fights through trial and error. If you get hit in Castlevania, you deserved it! The difference between a fair fight, and an unfair fight.

Almost every other game has clearer cues than GW2. And I admit that Castlevania is easy, but not just because of the cues. The cues allow you to clearly see attacks coming. What makes it easy is the speed at which the attacks come, and the damage they do when they hit you. In God of War the bosses have attacks that are this obvious too, yet they are still challenging, despite clear telegraphing.

And that is the point I think you are failing to see. In those games it is not the difficulty of seeing and hearing attacks that makes the difficulty. They are challenging just because they are challenging fights. Making things hard to see is not a good method to introduce difficulty in a boss fight. There is no excuse for it.

And on top of that, my examples are solo games! This is an MMO, which means there’s a lot more going on (spell effects from other players), and thus the importance of clearly telegraphing moves becomes even more important. GW2 fails utterly in that department.

I’ve fought Lupicus a couple of times and had no idea which attacks I needed to dodge. I only have two dodges, so that is rather important. It wasn’t until I watched a video of someone else fighting him, that I was able to see which attacks did what. But that’s terrible design. The player should be able to tell just by what’s happening on the screen which moves are dangerous, and which are not.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

And that is the point I think you are failing to see. In those games it is not the difficulty of seeing and hearing attacks that makes the difficulty. They are challenging just because they are challenging fights. Making things hard to see is not a good method to introduce difficulty in a boss fight. There is no excuse for it.

I’m not failing to see your point. Your point is that better telegraphed attacks would be better for the game.

I’m telling you attacks are already telegraphed plenty, and if you don’t see them, I’d advise you to pay better attention.

The only few attacks that are hard to tell are: Moss man agony, Lupi dome, Lupi pewpew (although both of those are easily countered by good reflexes) and Jellyfish agony attack. In fact, I’m only now starting to be able to recognize that one consistently. Just because I never looked out for it. Now that people pointed it out to me, I’m having a lot less trouble interrupting it.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Kal Spiro.9745:

In your castlevania fights the only way to fail is to not be paying attention at all. Everything was absurdly telegraphed and announced and I can’t imagine anyone failing unless they themselves were already dead.

Again, no, GW2 telegraphs attacks perfectly. They’re not so obvious a braindead weasle could avoid them, while also being clear enough to spot if you’re actually looking for them.

So what you are saying is, a player would have to be blind not to see an attack coming in Castlevania… which is exactly my point. It is all about skill, and responding to what you see. Not about trying to memorize the boss fights through trial and error. If you get hit in Castlevania, you deserved it! The difference between a fair fight, and an unfair fight.

This is what you are failing to understand. Observing something that is shouted at you and burned into your retina with absurdly obvious foreshadowing is not skill. Skill is noticing the difference between a normal attack and a major attack that has a specific and special posture. Skill is acquired, not from having the boss tell you how to beat it, but from having to learn, through trial and error, exactly when you need to react and how you need to do it.

I work in a trade skill. It’s something I had to learn by doing. You can’t teach a skill by saying go here do this. You have to actually experience it, and get it wrong in order to know how to get it right. That is what a skill is. It takes skill, currently, to fight bosses. What you want is to remove the skill by making it absurdly easy and obvious.

I honestly don’t understand how it is you can make the arguments you’re making and not actually understand that.

Kal Spiro.9745:

This is what you are failing to understand. Observing something that is shouted at you and burned into your retina with absurdly obvious foreshadowing is not skill. Skill is noticing the difference between a normal attack and a major attack that has a specific and special posture. Skill is acquired, not from having the boss tell you how to beat it, but from having to learn, through trial and error, exactly when you need to react and how you need to do it.

I honestly don’t understand how it is you can make the arguments you’re making and not actually understand that.

Trial and error is not skill based game play! Skill is having fast reflexes, being able to respond to what a boss is doing, and using an effective strategy in beating him. Badly telegraphed attacks are simply a frustration, and annoyance. Yes they make the boss fight more difficult, but not in a good way.

“This is what you are failing to understand. Observing something that is shouted at you and burned into your retina with absurdly obvious foreshadowing is not skill.”

You are completely wrong. If something is foreshadowed properly, it is your skill that determines if you respond to it accordingly, and in time. If you clearly see that a boss is about to do something unpleasant, and decide to move away from the boss, that is a strategic decision based on clear information being given to you by the game. If you are able to recognize this danger on your first try, that is good boss design.

But if one attack looks almost the same as the other, and there is no real clear indication which attack does loads of damage, and which one doesn’t, that is BAD design. Lupicus is an example of that. I really had to study videos of people fighting him hard, before being able to spot what it was I had to look out for. That is not a challenge that requires skill. It’s repetition.

The golems in Sorrow’s Demise are another example. They spam their ranged attacks all over the place, and you won’t see it coming until it is too late. There is no warning, it just launches missiles all over the place, with no indication if you are the target or not. And even if you aren’t the target, you’ll most likely end up stepping into an aoe effect still.

The reason I’m making these arguments, is because I have worked on boss battles professionally. Not that I’m arguing out of some sort of authority here. But claiming subtle telegraphed attacks are better than clearly telegraphed attacks is exactly the opposite of good boss design. The difficulty of a boss comes from unpredictability, speed, damage and diversity. It shouldn’t come from poor communication to the player.

There is a lot going on in this game. Toss in a few meteor showers and you can’t see at all what is going on. That is why exaggerated attacks are very important. You need to be able to see the really dangerous attacks, despite all the other visual overload that’s being tossed at you through the screen. Games are an audio/visual medium, so use sound to indicate boss attacks. None of GW2’s bosses use sound to indicate incoming attacks, except the Jade Maw. There is no excuse for that.

I’m going to say it one last time, and then I’ll say ’let’s agree to disagree’:

I personally think the telegraphs in GW2 are good enough. Some too little, some too much, but across the board: okay.

Making them more obvious will not make people require more skill, on the contrary, it will make them require less of it.

Your argument is: “dodging a well telegraphed attack takes skill”. No, it doesn’t. If a guy comes running towards you and is screaming “HEY DUDE, I’M ABOUT TO PUNCH YOUR FACE IN ABOUT 5 SECONDS!” and all you need to do to avoid it is take a step aside, it doesn’t take skill to avoid his attack.

If a guy stands in front of you and throws a punch at you every now and then, it does take skill to avoid them, because the telling signs are less.

I’m of the opinion that GW2 bosses are already way too easy, making their telegraphs easier isn’t going to make it any better than it is now.

Kal Spiro.9745:

I have never once had an issue identifying any mods tell when it was about to do something massive, boss or otherwise.

Captain Ashym’s Meteor Shower in Urban Battleground Fractal (Ascalon).

Has no cast time, and no red circle, and hits for 11.5k twice before you even realize you are hit.

Bright.9160:

If a guy stands in front of you and throws a punch at you every now and then, it does take skill to avoid them, because the telling signs are less.

No, that is all wrong. First of all, the ways in which you can avoid damage from a boss in GW2 are extremely limited. You only have 2 dodges, and CC skills don’t work on almost all the bosses (defiant and such). So the only option is to dodge roll, keep your distance all the time, or run away and throw cripples. Or use defensive skills to prevent damage. Timing these anti measures correctly becomes essential, especially since some boss attacks instantly down you if they hit. There for, seeing and hearing those attacks becomes really important. The problem with GW2’s boss attacks are four fold:

• They are hard to see, unless you’ve done the battle several times.
• They don’t make any specific sound to warn you the attack is coming.
• The animations of the boss are rarely different from his other attacks.
• There is no clear visible difference between a weak attack and a deadly attack.

What you are talking about is simply memorization. You’ve done the battle several times, there for you know what to look out for. But it doesn’t really require any skill, just repetition to learn what the attacks look like. If the attacks were more clear, it would really all come down to your own skill.

If all a boss has is hard to read attacks… then that’s a bad boss encounter. That’s not difficulty. It’s the equivalent of waiting behind a door every day and hitting everyone who enters in the face with a golf club. They won’t see it coming, they won’t hear it coming, but eventually they’ll know what to look out for. But it’s not skill, and it’s not a fair fight.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Kal Spiro.9745:

I have never once had an issue identifying any mods tell when it was about to do something massive, boss or otherwise.

Captain Ashym’s Meteor Shower in Urban Battleground Fractal (Ascalon).

Has no cast time, and no red circle, and hits for 11.5k twice before you even realize you are hit.

Actually, you have about a second after the first meteor hits the ground before you start taking damage. It has a pretty decent visual and sound effect that should give you plenty of time to get yo white a** out of there.

Bright.9160:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Kal Spiro.9745:

I have never once had an issue identifying any mods tell when it was about to do something massive, boss or otherwise.

Captain Ashym’s Meteor Shower in Urban Battleground Fractal (Ascalon).

Has no cast time, and no red circle, and hits for 11.5k twice before you even realize you are hit.

Actually, you have about a second after the first meteor hits the ground before you start taking damage. It has a pretty decent visual and sound effect that should give you plenty of time to get yo white a** out of there.

This is two strikes from meteor shower, almost instantaneous.

Enough so that it struck me twice between two of my rifle attacks.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If all a boss has is hard to read attacks… then that’s a bad boss encounter. That’s not difficulty. It’s the equivalent of waiting behind a door every day and hitting everyone who enters in the face with a golf club. They won’t see it coming, they won’t hear it coming, but eventually they’ll know what to look out for. But it’s not skill, and it’s not a fair fight.

So what you’re saying is that a fight that is difficult because you have the chance to misinterpret an attack is NOT difficult. It would therefore be more difficult if you always knew exactly what the boss was going to do before he did it and could therefore always react before it happened?

Well, I’m out. The OP clearly has no concept of what skill nor difficulty actually means. There is no discussion, nor even argument here. There is just complaint and unreasonable expectations about a concept that is entirely misunderstood.

Have fun.

Kal Spiro.9745:

So what you’re saying is that a fight that is difficult because you have the chance to misinterpret an attack is NOT difficult.

No, what I’m saying is that poorly telegraphing an attack is no substitute for an actual challenge. You can make a battle as hard as you want by poorly indicating what a boss is doing, but that’s not good game design.

The best boss battles, are the ones where attacks are clearly telegraphed, and you only get hurt due to your own mistakes. Making boss attacks more obvious and clear has never hurt a game. It improves the flow of the battle, makes it less frustrating, and makes it more fair. It doesn’t change anything about the actual difficulty of the fight. It just prevents the players from being blind to what is happening on the screen.

It is incredibly important that players can see what is happening without the use of a magnifying glass, or without having to study multiple youtube videos. I’ve done a lot of Fractals, and I still can’t tell when that bloody Dredge Suit does its agony attack. There’s nothing about his movements, or visual effects, or sounds, that indicates the incoming attack. And it hits all over the room! That has got to change. And it starts with properly designing how bosses telegraph their actions.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No, what I’m saying is that poorly telegraphing an attack is no substitute for an actual challenge. You can make a battle as hard as you want by poorly indicating what a boss is doing, but that’s not good game design.

Except, I’m not having trouble with boss attacks and dodging them. Clearly either I have more skill in reacting to the bosses, or you’re doing something wrong?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The best boss battles, are the ones where attacks are clearly telegraphed, and you only get hurt due to your own mistakes.

You are currently being hurt by your own mistakes.

Making boss attacks more obvious and clear has never hurt a game. It improves the flow of the battle, makes it less frustrating, and makes it more fair.

Easier is more fair? Also, making the windups take longer is not going to improve the flow, on the contrary, it will make reduce the flow, because you’ll be hitting him in between big windups, and occasionally dodging.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

It doesn’t change anything about the actual difficulty of the fight. It just prevents the players from being blind to what is happening on the screen.

Then, look better? It actually does change the difficulty, it makes it easier to recognize his attacks, ergo, it makes it easier to dodge them, ergo, the fight becomes easier.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

It is incredibly important that players can see what is happening without the use of a magnifying glass, or without having to study multiple youtube videos. I’ve done a lot of Fractals, and I still can’t tell when that bloody Dredge Suit does its agony attack.

He’ll get the boon: Stability (the only boon he will have up), and once you see the boon appear, dodge two times and you won’t get agony. That is literally one of the easiest attacks to dodge. It’s like the Jade Maw, except, you don’t have the 3 second windup. You just have to walk backwards, watch when he gains stability and dodge twice.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

There’s nothing about his movements, or visual effects, or sounds, that indicates the incoming attack. And it hits all over the room! That has got to change. And it starts with properly designing how bosses telegraph their actions.

Read above. That attack is super easy to dodge.

Okay guys going to throw my 2 cents in here. Those of you defending the lack of Audio and Visual tells in GW2 are just defending shoddy game design. You want an example of shoddy game design?
The first video linked by the Queen (OP) at 00:52-00:59.
The camera buggs out and you can no longer see the boss.
You can argue until the cows come home that “You don’t need to see the boss because you know what he’s doing.” Or “Manually rotate the camera!” But at the end of the day it’s poor design, plain and simple.
And that’s what all of the posters here calling queen a bad player are defending. Bad game design.
A Player should not have to squint at a boss to pick up subtle changes in animation to determin atatcks that are ment to be avoided. A player should not have to try and see past particle effects to work out what is coming next.
As well as making a fight easier to read and react too Audio and Visual cues also personalise and breath more life into an encounter.
When the animation for that one attack you absolultly dread is mixed in with a cool audio effect it can sent shivers up your spine.
All the posters here defending the current state of boss tells in the game are just encouraging Anet to continue doing things half arsed.

Kaaboose.3897:

Okay guys going to throw my 2 cents in here. Those of you defending the lack of Audio and Visual tells in GW2 are just defending shoddy game design. You want an example of shoddy game design?
The first video linked by the Queen (OP) at 00:52-00:59.
The camera buggs out and you can no longer see the boss.
You can argue until the cows come home that “You don’t need to see the boss because you know what he’s doing.” Or “Manually rotate the camera!” But at the end of the day it’s poor design, plain and simple.
And that’s what all of the posters here calling queen a bad player are defending. Bad game design.
A Player should not have to squint at a boss to pick up subtle changes in animation to determin atatcks that are ment to be avoided. A player should not have to try and see past particle effects to work out what is coming next.
As well as making a fight easier to read and react too Audio and Visual cues also personalise and breath more life into an encounter.
When the animation for that one attack you absolultly dread is mixed in with a cool audio effect it can sent shivers up your spine.
All the posters here defending the current state of boss tells in the game are just encouraging Anet to continue doing things half arsed.

Hear hear. Very well said. Thinking back on ICC 1st boss when he spikes you on a bone spike, you know the spike is coming . . . . but who is it going to be hmmmm, because you had to react very quickly to it or that poor soul is going to DIE.

Exactly, and you’re right that it does add a lot of excitement. Those moments when a boss yells out “BEHOLD MY POWERS” and then sends a wave of flames flashing your way, those moments are awesome. And that was really what I was trying to convey with the videos. Sure, the example is a game where the boss mechanics them selves are very easy (but you are watching an experienced player playing it, so it seems easier than it really is, especially against the Death boss). The battles seem easy, because it is so clear what the bosses are doing. Still that doesn’t mean that you can’t fail to dodge an incoming attack. But at least it won’t be the game’s shoddy design that caused you to miss it.

Who in their right minds would defend that little stability icon on the Dredge Boss? That’s not a telegraphed move. He just happens to get stability when he does that move, but he doesn’t do anything visual or make any specific sound before hitting the entire room with a devastating agony attack (it really does A LOT of damage).

Also, keep in mind that the player is never told what to look out for. There’s no way the player can know that stability is a sign of an incoming attack, because no other boss does that. Bosses in GW2 have stability all the time.

Good boss design, means clearly communicating to the player what is expected of him/her. The attacks should be clear, and players should not be forced to keep the boss targeted (which is a challenge in and of itself with GW2’s targeting system) and watch out for a tiny icon that appears under his health bar. That is bad design.

FURTHER MORE, look at how cool the sounds are in that battle with Death! That sound of the incoming scythe! That moment when he yells out “MINIONS!”. You can clearly distinguish every single move that the boss does by the audio alone. In GW2 it’s just a big loud wall of noise. Nothing distinguishes boss behavior, apart from perhaps a few of the bosses that have dialogue in Fractals.

Boss health bars

And another thing, is there any reason why we should be forced to keep the boss targeted to see his health and other icons? Why not have the health bar of the boss on screen all the time, for the duration of the boss battle? Seems more practical and exciting to me. Just make the health bar as wide as the screen, like in Castlevania or Devil May Cry. It is a boss battle after all, the boss is really all that matters. You’d still be able to select individual minions, but you’d always be able to see how much health the most important foe has left.

Kaaboose.3897:

Okay guys going to throw my 2 cents in here. Those of you defending the lack of Audio and Visual tells in GW2 are just defending shoddy game design. You want an example of shoddy game design?
The first video linked by the Queen (OP) at 00:52-00:59.
The camera buggs out and you can no longer see the boss.
You can argue until the cows come home that “You don’t need to see the boss because you know what he’s doing.” Or “Manually rotate the camera!” But at the end of the day it’s poor design, plain and simple.
And that’s what all of the posters here calling queen a bad player are defending. Bad game design.
A Player should not have to squint at a boss to pick up subtle changes in animation to determin atatcks that are ment to be avoided. A player should not have to try and see past particle effects to work out what is coming next.
As well as making a fight easier to read and react too Audio and Visual cues also personalise and breath more life into an encounter.
When the animation for that one attack you absolultly dread is mixed in with a cool audio effect it can sent shivers up your spine.
All the posters here defending the current state of boss tells in the game are just encouraging Anet to continue doing things half arsed.

I’ve never had to squint to figure out when a boss was about to do a major attack. They are extremely obvious, and highly telegraphed. There are, as has been mentioned only a handful of attack, not even whole bosses, in which this is not completely true.

You learn to read the mob, because they all do it differently, but primarily the situation is rediculous Power Ranger poses and occationally sparkly glowing around their weapon of choice. I’ll admit that the glow could easily be blocked by even minor effects from powers, but the poses are obvious. That is for the player sized bosses. For the big ones it’s generally more obvious.

The only thing those videos had was the boss litterally saying, “I’m about to use this bomb, you better move to the safe area and get ready for it.” It isn’t shoddy design to not announce your big moves when you’re doing an extravigant dance move to point it out.

The camera thing, though, was shoddy design work. I noticed that too, but I assumed that was a failing of the whole game not just that fight and ignored it.

I am, however, encouraging ANet to continue to do what they’re doing. It isn’t kitten, it simple isn’t as over the top obvious as you seem to think is fun. It is exactly as intricate, though, as I think is fun.

I think the only enemies who have no visual (or audo) queue of a skill incoming is the Veteran mages in the ascalonian fractal and the Legendary Imbued Shaman in the Volcanic Fractal.

Mages: They use staff #3, being such a small human model in the midst of a fight, it is very difficult to see it coming aside from spamming dodge.

Shaman: His meteor shower aoe appears with no indication it is coming. Without aegis, you are more than likely to be hit by atleast 1 second of it.

Other than that, I think most bosses have some hint of a skill incoming or they follow a simple pattern.

95% of bosses can be done in 5-10mins so difficulty shouldn’t be made easier. If anything they should be made harder there are to many positions u can attack boss without being attacked back. This will increase ecto prices though that can be a +/-. Also, If you die usually people will rez you unless they are all dead like at grenth.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Kaaboose.3897:

Okay guys going to throw my 2 cents in here. Those of you defending the lack of Audio and Visual tells in GW2 are just defending shoddy game design. You want an example of shoddy game design?
The first video linked by the Queen (OP) at 00:52-00:59.
The camera buggs out and you can no longer see the boss.
You can argue until the cows come home that “You don’t need to see the boss because you know what he’s doing.” Or “Manually rotate the camera!” But at the end of the day it’s poor design, plain and simple.
And that’s what all of the posters here calling queen a bad player are defending. Bad game design.
A Player should not have to squint at a boss to pick up subtle changes in animation to determin atatcks that are ment to be avoided. A player should not have to try and see past particle effects to work out what is coming next.
As well as making a fight easier to read and react too Audio and Visual cues also personalise and breath more life into an encounter.
When the animation for that one attack you absolultly dread is mixed in with a cool audio effect it can sent shivers up your spine.
All the posters here defending the current state of boss tells in the game are just encouraging Anet to continue doing things half arsed.

I’ve never had to squint to figure out when a boss was about to do a major attack. They are extremely obvious, and highly telegraphed. There are, as has been mentioned only a handful of attack, not even whole bosses, in which this is not completely true.

You learn to read the mob, because they all do it differently, but primarily the situation is rediculous Power Ranger poses and occationally sparkly glowing around their weapon of choice. I’ll admit that the glow could easily be blocked by even minor effects from powers, but the poses are obvious. That is for the player sized bosses. For the big ones it’s generally more obvious.

The only thing those videos had was the boss litterally saying, “I’m about to use this bomb, you better move to the safe area and get ready for it.” It isn’t shoddy design to not announce your big moves when you’re doing an extravigant dance move to point it out.

The camera thing, though, was shoddy design work. I noticed that too, but I assumed that was a failing of the whole game not just that fight and ignored it.

I am, however, encouraging ANet to continue to do what they’re doing. It isn’t kitten, it simple isn’t as over the top obvious as you seem to think is fun. It is exactly as intricate, though, as I think is fun.

Mind telling me how you can tell when these two bosses in this video are going to do their attacks? 14:23 – 14:41
http://youtu.be/XMEq4PAFmnI?t=14m23s
But sure, You go ahead and keep encouraging Anet to cut corners. It’s what’s best for everyone after all.

Oh that Golem boss annoys me so much. It’s almost an instant wipe, because there’s no indication when he’ll fire, he instantly downs you, and then shoots again at downed players. Bye bye!

Here is how that could be improved:

Have the golem perform a special animation where red targeting lasers aim for the players he’s going to shoot at, and have him yell out “MISSILES-LOCKED”, and then he fires them. And have the missiles them selves make a really loud unique sound when they are launched.

By redesigning the boss in this way, players not only know when to expect the attack. But they also know if they are the target of the attack, and they can hear the exact moment when they should dodge.

Players that are downed should instantly be removed from the aggro list, and be immune to damage from the boss for several seconds. Otherwise you might as well kill them instantly anyway. Because a boss that targets downed players, means players will not be getting back up.

it’s not only the bosses that need to be improved. Take e.g. a champion icebrood wolf. All icebrood wolves do that aoe ground explosion attack that hits for a fair bit of damage, but there is no animation or indication whatsoever before it happens.
The champion version can down and of outright kill squisher characters in one hit, but still there is no indication of when the attack comes and looks pretty much exacly like anything else he does. Additionally smaller mobs jerk around a lot when they are hit. This does not interrupt their attacks, it just makes it that much harder to see what they are doing.
Fighting the wolf is not hard, just apply cripple, kite and kill with ranged. But that’s still no excuse for lazy design. As stated way above, when you don’t know why you just went down, something is wrong in the combat design.

I wonder if the people who say they have no problem with tells:

• Have done those bosses hundreds and hundreds of times that they can remember everything, even if the tells are awful
• Have large computer screens with high resolution so they can see things better / or more things

I see Youtube videos of players with big screens. It’s a lot easier to see what’s going on… I watch whole videos with my mouth open because I can’t believe how much easier it is to see what’s going on, compared to my screen, where there’s very little shown except my character, fog, particle effects, nothing else. I can’t even see where a downed player is, because the fog and particle effects blur the icon.

I can’t see what the enemy is doing, even if it’s just my particle effects and his.

I’m not a pro by any means, but I’ve played enough PvP, GvG, HA, in Gw1 that I know to pay attention to tells. For example, as a mesmer, I could have a monk targeted, but out of the corner of my eye I see a elementalist start a certain animation, I can switch to him real quick and interrupt her. Or on my monk, I can be casting a protection spell while I have my warrior targeted, but then out of the corner of my eye I see the enemy mesmer face me and use his interrupt, which makes me press ESC to cancel my skill (so it doesn’t get interrupted or diverted)…
I never played warrior in Gw1, but I could be healing one person, then quickly switch to another person to cast a protective spell because I can see the tell of the enemy warrior trying to knock him down.

But in Gw2 I can’t see anything because of the particle effects, and the tells don’t match when you get hit. I’ve practiced for hours. A little before, a little after, I always dodge the wrong time unless it’s by accident.

Take the sylvari tutorial boss for example, I unequipped my weapons, made sure there were no other players around, and tried to practice dodging!

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Oh that Golem boss annoys me so much. It’s almost an instant wipe, because there’s no indication when he’ll fire, he instantly downs you, and then shoots again at downed players. Bye bye!

Here is how that could be improved:

Have the golem perform a special animation where red targeting lasers aim for the players he’s going to shoot at, and have him yell out “MISSILES-LOCKED”, and then he fires them. And have the missiles them selves make a really loud unique sound when they are launched.

By redesigning the boss in this way, players not only know when to expect the attack. But they also know if they are the target of the attack, and they can hear the exact moment when they should dodge.

Players that are downed should instantly be removed from the aggro list, and be immune to damage from the boss for several seconds. Otherwise you might as well kill them instantly anyway. Because a boss that targets downed players, means players will not be getting back up.

I agree with everything except making the downed player immune or removed from the aggro list. That’s too much hand-holding.

I agree with you about improving the tells, but that last part would make the game waaaay too easy. By that time, it’s the player’s fault he got downed, he had plenty of warning with those tells you suggest. Then, it’s his team’s fault. They could tell the attack was coming, they could tell the player didn’t dodge it, they could tell the player got downed. To make sure he’s not defeated, the team should try to protect him and rally him… aegis, protection, regen, heals, blinding the enemy… oh but wait, blind is only 10% effective, eh.

lorazcyk.8927:

I wonder if the people who say they have no problem with tells:

• Have done those bosses hundreds and hundreds of times that they can remember everything, even if the tells are awful
• Have large computer screens with high resolution so they can see things better / or more things

I’ve done Lupi quite a few times, but I figured out his tells long before I got good at the fight. When I figured them out, it wasn’t a case of recognizing them as much as reacting properly.

Also, I play on an absolutely terrible DELL laptop with a 15inch screen on lowest graphics setting and I need a fan on my laptop 24/7 when playing GW2, because otherwise, my graphics card dies.

Not to mention, a bunch of the people I regularly play with play like this as well. We did a 1:20 lupi kill while our Guardian was on the phone, and he plays with his mouse on his knee, because he just moved and hasn’t set up his stuff yet.

I need to bring down my screen in a weird angle in the Grawl fractal, because the Grawl Shaman’s health bar obstructs most of his body, and it’s impossible for me to see his animations that way. Yet, I’m still able to dodge most of his arrows. If anything, I’d like to have a more adaptable UI rather than better boss tells. And a camera that doesn’t spazz out whenever you come withing 2 feet of a wall.

I have to admit though, that the guy a bit higher has a good point when it comes to the Icebrood Wolves. I had never done HotW path 2 or 3 before, because no one runs it, and those wolves are terrible. In CoE, I never had a problem with them for some reason, but in HotW, they’re annoying as hell.

lorazcyk.8927:

I agree with you about improving the tells, but that last part would make the game waaaay too easy. By that time, it’s the player’s fault he got downed, he had plenty of warning with those tells you suggest. Then, it’s his team’s fault. They could tell the attack was coming, they could tell the player didn’t dodge it, they could tell the player got downed. To make sure he’s not defeated, the team should try to protect him and rally him… aegis, protection, regen, heals, blinding the enemy… oh but wait, blind is only 10% effective, eh.

And this brings us to another point that was already pointed out in the thread about the holy trinity. There ARE hardly any ways to protect a downed team mate. Because all bosses are immune to control skills. You’d think CC skills are in the game exactly for that reason, so you can fear a boss away to protect your team mate…. but they are ALL immune.