Guild Wars 2

Here’s the idea: Give the Engineer something to be good at, that no other class can quite match. I’m thinking Preparation sounds good.

Here’s my method: Whenever an Engineer gains a Trait Point, give them an Upgrade Point, as well – which can be spent on one of four Upgrade Paths, corresponding to the four Skill Types available to the Engineer. Allow on-the-fly respeccing of Upgrade Paths only.

Each Path would also increase the effectiveness of the relevant skills, and only those relevant skills – no using Kits to increase your Flame Turret or Pistol damage, for example.
Upgrade Paths:
Kits [Increases Bundle Power & Condition Damage, 5 points each per point]
Gadgets [Increase Condition Duration & Knockback, 1% each per point]
Elixirs [Increase AoE 1% & Chance of Concurrency 3%, per point]
Turrets [Increase Cooldown Reduction & Turret Vitality, 1% each per point]
Every five Upgrade Points in a given path, of course, would unlock a Customization Node, allowing the Engineer to modify their abilities in various ways (changing the Condition inflicted by Turret, tilting the RNG in a particular direction for an Elixir, or enhancing Gadgets, for example).
Nodes 5 and 10 would allow customization of Healing and Tier 1 (1-point) skills, 15 and 20 would allow the same for Tier 2 (3-point) skills, 25 for Tier 3 (6-point) and 30 for Elite – with, of course, all traits unlocked at each Node being cumulative.

If this idea were to be used, I’d assume that they’d roll some of the existing traits into the appropriate Upgrade Paths.
Credit where it’s due: GoZero and LinguisticallyInept both contributed.

I think a good engi player shines a lot in a group, I have had groups with really good Engi players and they have ran so much more smoothly than others.

I personally am still trying to get the particulars down about the engi but what I have grasped is the Profession is a really hard one to do right.

Not saying that is your problem and your not playing it right just saying I know that engi can be godsends if played right.

Yeah, if played right the class has a crazy number of combos they can accomplish, and a lot of control. Even an all-Turret build can be great in the right hands. Doesn’t change that the Class Balance Philosophy notes basically go “They’re versatile, but they’re not so good at killing things. They’re also supposed to get boons from somewhere while being versatile? Oh, and the Elementalist is king of versatility. Pays for it…by being a mage.”

The disparity between the two sections led to a bit of outcry on the Engineer forums – which led me to make an Elementalist, which led to me realizing the reason the Engineer gets no attention from the devs: They don’t know what to do with it, because they’ve filled every general role. Mesmer is the only one that the Engineer isn’t second-fiddle-at-best to, and that’s because their real strengths are so weird that the Engineer just doesn’t have any real point of comparison that I’ve noticed, aside from maybe Control. Every profession has a concrete thing they’re really good at…except Engineer, who’s apparently supposed to be the understudy of everybody. That’s no way to design a class – certainly not if they’re going to be made less capable of defending themselves (via main-hand weapon, which is, for any build that doesn’t use kits, the only weapon they have that isn’t a Utility skill) as a result.

If the increasing number of people claiming to be turned away from groups for being an Engineer is anything to go by, there is a serious need for some work done on the class, besides.

i like the idea of stat bonuses that only affect kits… i really like the elixr gun but feel like im forced into pistols to effectively utilise it

spider turrets sound really cool… i hope they add those, but it sounds like some of the ‘traits’ in turrets would be OP (when combined with the normal traits)

Yeah, I kinda figured a lot of the traits from the normal lines would be rolled over into the Upgrade Paths, but that’s not the kind of thing I shouldn’t point out to begin with – I’ll go back and make a note of that. Thanks for pointing it out.

I long for the day when this class is taken out of the beta stage and made whole and the combat is fluid. This system might allow us the choices we need since traits won’t ever be changed (like the never used 5% more damage to blah) that we see althroughout the traits in engineering lines.

2nd in versatility, 1st in utility.

I thought that, too, until I started considering what Engineer utilities bring to the table compared to other classes: nothing particularly special, except for Toolbelt skills that 1) can’t be chosen independent of Utilities, often leading to great disparities in usefulness between Utility and Toolbelt skill, 2) turn each Elixir into a random-number-fueled, tiny AoE attempt to dispense a boon to an ally and 3) have some of the extreme non-Elite cooldowns of any Engineer ability, ranging from 10 to 90 seconds with the 10-second skill being far more useful for most purposes than the 90-second.

The Engineer is like a blindfolded carpenter trying to hit a nail from across the room with a hammer. Not even Anet knows what the Engineer should be, this is fact based on the class vision descriptions released this xmas patch. Want utility? Go to the king of utility…not the Engineer. Folks get versatile and utility mixed up, by both definitions they are pretty near the same, and one class was named the king, it was not the Engineer. In fact, middle, average support is the vision of the Engineer, not good at long range, not good at short range, just middle.

Though you can solo farm pretty well in pve, wait, there isnt any grind or farming in this game according to Anet, my bad.

And that is exactly why I suggested this – if we can’t be good at anything, then let us be good at customizing what we can do.

Totally agree with you. It really annoys me how, no matter what build i choose, i will ALWAYS be out damaged or out healed by another class. Hopefully they will at least fix and give turrets a nice buff, So they aren’t being useless and dying every 2 seconds. I really like your ideas, would be nice to see them implemented.

Eh, the 1s cooldown on kit swaps somewhat beats Ele in versatility imo.
Not by enough to make up for a near complete lack of combo fields and the lack of any particularly useful AoE support now that Super Elixir is fixed, and a continuously nerfed AoE damage option, but it’s there.

Yeah, there’s a minor advantage in switch time, as well as duration – but, as mentioned, not near enough of an advantage to make it worth the rest.

While at work, I realized an alternate method of handling this particular idea – instead of tying each Node to a part, tie it to an instance of the skill type, organized roughly by tier. By way of explanation, the following:
Nodes 1 and 2: Healing (Healing Turret, Elixir H, Medkit, [theoretical healing gadget]) and Tier 1 (Rifle Turret, Flame Turret, Elixir B, Elixir U, Utility Goggles, Throw Mine, and Grenade Kit)
Nodes 3 and 4: Tier 2 (Net Turret, Thumper Turret, Elixir S, Personal Battering Ram, Rocket Boots, Flamethrower and Bomb Kit, as well as all effects offered by prerequisite Nodes)
Nodes 5 and 6: Tier 3 (Rocket Turret, Elixir R, Elixir C, Slick Shoes, Elixir Gun, and Tool Kit, as well as all effects offered by prerequisite Nodes)

This would somewhat simplify things, I think. Each node would offer modifications of each skill, in a manner similar to the original idea, but parceled out by tier instead of part.

Thoughts?

The Engie’s a lot like the Ele.

You’re expected to utilize everything all the time if you’re going to succeed, and ANet won’t buff anything up because the power of your versatility/utility is too great.

I suggested that we be given a switchable 2 sets of 5 button bars for the 1-5 keys and that these keys could be setup individually to be for different kits. So that we could more effectively do the attacks we need to do and let the computer do the kit switching. It would save us enormous amount of time by doing this and give us the much needed switching we need for the kits to be the maximum. Not everyone has those expensive keyboards you know.

I will gladly “utilize everything” like an ele, as in have all the utility slots occupied by kits, when any of the kits will have a combo finisher or I will be able to place 3 stunbreakers in the toolbelt like an ele

Sarcasm aside, i think what the engineer really need is a new class mechanic, it feels like the toolbelt is just a bad copy of the ele attunements, and is even more obvious when you look at the class descriptions of the last patch…

Why so little love for that poor engineer?

Yeah, see, I know that. And it makes sense, except for the part where Anet won’t do anything. That part will always baffle me, especially as I watch patch after patch go by with none of the bugs of the class being addressed.

Until 1) the bugs get addressed, and 2) the class is given somewhere to shine – somewhere to not be second-place (especially not kitten versatility, of all things, especially at the build-limiting cost of utility slots, if that versatility is to actually be achieved in the way they obviously mean for it to (kits)) – the class will not be finished, at least in my opinion.

I’ll be honest, I got lost halfway through the OP post. I do think Engineer needs to be revamped though.

I think when anet finally fix turrets and kits using your stats engis will start to shine. It’s the bugs that beat the class into submission imo..

Havidos.9328:

I’ll be honest, I got lost halfway through the OP post. I do think Engineer needs to be revamped though.

And this is the post that spurred me to pare down the original post.

Oh, and Edit: Yeah, the original post has been rewritten. Smaller. Concentrated magnificence.

The Engineer is the king of balanced play in a game where balanced builds lose 100% against extremely focused burst and bunker builds.

Moving healing bots I would like to see.. plus some other things which can make this class a better dps, buffs, and/or healing class depending on your specs..

Yeah, that’d be pretty interesting. Part of the idea. I haven’t tried to come up with any kind of writeup for what kind of traits there are mainly because I have no idea what to do about them – what would be unbalanced, what would not, etcetera.

i dont think theres much wrong with the engineer that couldnt be solved with trait buffs. each trait should buff 1 type of kit and none of the others and allow for buffs to certain typs of turrets or potions. so we see a class that is still unpredictable and versitile but has a strong medkit flam turret close range combo, or a rifle rocket turret elixer gun combo. as it stands right now i go elixer build regardless of my situation its not awesome but it isnt bad. i also like the flamethrower…. but thats more because hey,… its a flamethrower.

Aaand that’s the intent of how the Upgrade traits are supposed to be – specific upgrades to specific things. Dropped the point from the first post, because I was having issues putting it in a concise manner.

DreamOfACure.4382:

The Engie’s a lot like the Ele.

You’re expected to utilize everything all the time if you’re going to succeed, and ANet won’t buff anything up because the power of your versatility/utility is too great.

I agree with this. The Engineer has tons of potential, but because it’s a less popular choice, the profession isn’t as well explored as Thief or Warrior. I’m not all that good at playing thief, I’m undergeared and yet I’m finding several builds/style of play that are amazing in terms of aoe damage, combos, and or/or support.

stof.9341:

The Engineer is the king of balanced play in a game where balanced builds lose 100% against extremely focused burst and bunker builds.

Shame, no?

There was another thread similar to this about the burst damage builds of other classes and how they in no way match the classes that have to suffer the versatility tax.

The point many people posted about was how it made these other classes seem op when really they were working properly and how it was wrong of the design of the game to cause other classes other then Thief, Warrior, Guardians to have to give up so much because it’s causing a bigger imbalance then it should.

Now we are literally seeing people flocking to those other classes without hesitation because it IS so much easier to do anything in the game. Who needs to play an engineer rifle build when you can faceroll on a warrior, who needs to bunker engineer when you can do it so much better on a guardian, who needs condi built engi when you can do it so much better on a ranger/thief.

It’s not too much of a jump to claim that this is fast becoming a 3 class game.

I made the point that if the game right now as it is affected real life, then our military would be fighting wars with a two handed sword because those are so much more deadly then any grenade,flamethrower,chemical weaponry,or guns.

I’m an engineer and I haven’t even rolled anything else.

All engineer needs is to be able to be effective at everything at once.

If engineer is the jack of all trades, master of none, why is he only allowed to take one trade into combat with him at once? If he wants to do damage he takes the grenades, but his elixirs probably suffer. If he wants to survive he takes a bunch of CC breaks but he’s gonna suck for everything else, etc etc. Other classes can do multiple things at the same time and better than engineer.

Solution? I dunno, maybe 4-5 utility skill slots instead of 3. Why? Because kits are taking up utility slots when the elementalist equivalent attunements don’t. The “advantage” of quick kit swaps for engineer doesn’t compare. If I was playing elementalist, all I’d have to do to not get screwed over by the 10 second cooldown is plan my rotations better. The engineer by comparison has to plan out his whole skillset before combat.

Alternatively if we don’t want to throw more skills at the engineer we could just buff the toolbelt abilities. Most of them are mostly cruddy abilities on long cooldowns. Let me say it again; most of these abilities are just bad unless you go for static discharge spam. JUST BUFF THEM and the engineer has more like 8 skills instead of 4.

You’re also forgetting that while we do have quick kit swapping, most of those availble skills on the kit are too situtational(and trash/UP) to the point its effectively… another wasted slot. Not to mention we probably won’t be swapping back to it until that one skill has recharged or that 1 situational skill is needed(If ever) so that effectively renders them….drum roll…. ON A COOLDOWN!!! ding ding ding! Whereas other proffesions skills all have a place, but ours are unreliable, underpowered, and too situational.

Hm. Come to think of it, while this is all well and good (and I’d consider it all valid points), this is turning into yet another “Engineer sucks/does not suck” thread.

Let’s not go further down that road. We have enough of those.

Instead: Anybody have any suggestions for further modification of the Upgrade Path idea? Ideas for Upgrades?

Though you have some good ideas, Anymras, I disagree that the Engi needs it. Plus, if you add a second class mechanic (which it essentially would be) you would need to add second mechanics for all other professions as well. Also, this just seems to be another trait system to me, and I do not see the need for it. We alreaady have traits that effect certain skill types. I think a better approach would be to simply redesign some of the major traits we currently have. For example, I do not like traits that only add 10% damage to certain skills, as I would much rather see interesting functional traits (like 1 extra grenage for the gren kit, for example). We already have plenty of traits which could be reworked to create more distinctive and viable builds and therefore allow players to build their Engi to shine in whichever way they choose.

The trait system we already have is a very good one and has the potential to be very flexible. Anet just needs to rework some of the current options, to allow more diversity and to increase the number of viable builds. Though personally, I find the Engi has more viable build options than some other professions at the moment. The thief for example, only has 4 effective builds, and 3 of those are all about burst damage and stealth. I’m not complaining about the thief, it is easily my favourite profession, I’m just pointing out that the best thief builds currently are all geared towards damage. At least the Engi can be built for a variety of roles and perform very well in them.

I actually wouldn’t be opposed to getting rid of the toolbelt, if this idea were to be used – most of the abilities from it are lackluster, with the exceptions of Elixir R, Rifle Turret, and most of the Kits. That’d bring us back down to one unique mechanic, and it wouldn’t be a compensation for the faux-attunement kits.

Of course, I also wouldn’t mind if they just took a good hard look at what they currently have, how well it does and does not function, and how useful it is and is not, before trying to change it. If they took the hybrid tax off, reworked toolbelt skills (including making them independent of Utility slots, in particular), let turrets scale with gear, kits with weapon strength, made Elixirs something that could truly be relied on to aid the group (and reworked the ones that just duplicate the abilities of other professions entirely – Elixir U, Elixir X, for example), and fixed the bugs, that’d maybe improve things.

It’d also improve things if they’d pick somewhere for the Engineer to be the best, of course – which was the point of this.

I agree, but part of my point was that I do not think any ONE profession should be the best at something. There should be at least two professions that can be great at something. Like the bunker builds for example, it’s not just the Guardian that can excel at that. There needs to be options and if you make one profession the best at something, it limits player choice.

For example, say I want to be the best at defending an area, but did not like the Engi, it would be nice to have other options. But if the Engi was the best profession for the job, it would feel rather limited to only be able to choose the Engi or have to put up with knowing that you cannot be the best in that field.

I completely agree that there are many things that need fixing (toolbelt skills included), and I am sure Anet will get round to fixing them, but I’m against the idea of ‘this one profession is the best for this scenerio’. The way it is at the moment (fixes aside) is fine as far as I can see and it allows players to choose whatever profession they like without worrying if they are subpar. If a player want to support, they have a few options not just one. If a player wants to be a serious killing machine, they have several options, and so on.

The biggest strength of the Engineer is its versatility, which is also the strength of the Elementalist. And that is completely fine IMO.

I’m not talking about specific tasks, like bunkering an area – it’s more the general things. For example:
Warrior has damage and durability.
Guardian has boons.
Necromancer has conditions.
Thief has stealth and burst damage.
Elementalist has versatility.
Mesmer has illusions.

Every profession, going by the Class Balance Philosophy, has a unique niche of its own – the thing just above this is an attempt to summarize (probably poorly, in some cases) the niche.

Engineer has less versatility than Elementalist and reduced damage because of the largely kit-dependent versatility. They’re not as good at another class at the main thing they’re slated to be good at – because the other class is the designated ‘king of versatility’. I wouldn’t have an issue with it if the two were at least equal, but they just aren’t.