Guild Wars 2

Greetings to you all. First of all exuse my bad english grammar, second be friendly and constructive on the topic.

And third : Thank you for reading it.

So onto topic.
I think classes are way to boxed in, and thats because you didnt destroy trinity, you just remade it to Damage,Support, Disabler.
Whitch is not a bad idea, but it is not worknig for me clearly. I might even say the Support-Disabler roles quite feel worthless, since you cant tell the differance clearly. And the Damage role feels like you are just a fill in.

I think, the problem is not with the roles, but with the design.
The Tank,Healer, DD roles are clear and have a pure strong base. You are clearly taking up a described role. Propably a role you like, (trough you want to have a chance to take up another, or fill another role to somethimes.)
The Dd,Support, Disabler roles are not concrete. You are not dooing a concrete thing, you are just there for “something”. And thats the reson you feel useless. And in dungeon you pick a role, that does not even exist actually, or you are not even sure it is usefull.

*In the end all you feel is that you are dooing : damage, spreading boons, and conditions.
And thats quite strange, since the concept of the game is supposed to be " you see clearly what you do" *. And boons are mostly not noticable, exspecially in there effect. ( the exuses are in minority, there are some usefull afterall)

This applyes mostly to pve. In pvp they are noticable, mostly. Orcount a bit more.

And this points to the :
Many players propably want to take up a role, so they can play a role . Its an role playing game afterall.
Roles are a big part of rpg-s, that let you costumize your character, personality, play style. It totally descibes, what your character excels at.
I understand that the old, mechanic of trinity is outdated and bad. Looking for a certaint role only to progress is reeeeeeeeeealllly bad.

But there is a thought that is the key to this all : You are forced to a role, since you need 1 to progress.
But in Guild Wars 1, you ware not forced to any role, but still could take up. You did not need that role to progress.

For example. In wow: there are many tanknig and healing classes, many classes that can do both or even 3 tipe of roles almost at the same, if there would be no : Gems,specialized gear, talents, glyphs. It would be quite fun as it was early in the game (in vanilla) It was almost like Gw2, where you could take up roles and heal, if needed, but you ware not forced to it. It was a LOT more fun than the curent trinity. Since the design was not flawed, and it was not simplified, to the current tank-healer-dd.

Another example. In D&D ( the paper and dice, not online) you didnt need to take a role up untill like 10-15, but could still progress.
Each battle was life and death, and that was fun. And Gw2 is trying to go the same way as old school D&D. but remember, you could still take up almost a “role like” thing and say i am going to specialize in healing.

It might be just my opinion, but the trinity could be nice if it is not forced, but we could still take them up. The current community clearly shows, “they dont pick someone instead of another, just becoause it has 10% more dmg”. So i dont think that would be a problem.
Currently i find all classes boring, and hardly play anymore,since i cant STILL pick a class i really like. And thats mostly because the way classes-skills-character and game syle costumization is implemented.
Maybe later on the game gets more interesting with more weapons, skills to pick from, classes and races, but right now i feel like having a 2 dimensional character, and the only thing that keeps me in that, my friends come next week, and that :

Anet Devs are still the best, even considering all this. They are the best the industry can offer, they are willing to think,plan,design. And they are good at it also.
THe game has its flaws, but in other hand it shows extreme potential. It made a big step forward in many parts of mmorpg genre, and it still can move forward with carefull and good design.
The artistic stlye is purely what we want. Combat is sligtly boring, but it can improve, as soon as we get more chances to costumize aur skillsets. But in other hand its quite detailed, and looks amazing.
So before anyone starts the flow, i find Gw2 a good game. And this is a constructive feedback and thread. Dont take it up as “moaning”.

Gl HF all.

I have to say that I disagree with most of your post. The combat, for me, is the most fun part of the game. It’s the most well done combat I’ve seen in an MMO in a long time. All of the classes have been interesting to me. I’m the type of person that hates alts, but everything plays so different in GW2 that I’ve been playing an alt of just about every class.

I have to disagree with your assessment that boons are not noticeable as well. When I pop on several stacks of might (or, alternately, apply several stacks of vulnerability to an enemy) I notice quite a bit of increase in my damage. When I pop swiftness I can maneuver much better. When I get Aegis it’s very obvious that I just blocked an attack, etc etc. Some effects are obviously going to be more noticeable than others, but they are all useful and you can tell when you have them versus when you don’t.

As for roles/trinity… I am so glad they’ve gotten away from the traditional roles. You can still specialize if you would like, but it is never necessary. I’m not quite sure what you are asking here, because it’s already possible to somewhat specialize and have a very different play experience.

Just borrow someone’s psp and play a few games of Monster Hunter on coop. That’s how you can work together without forcing into a definite role.

im not sure what the OP is suggesting either, it reads through as if your
conflicted on both sides, as in you dont want roles, but do want roles

i think they meant something like
the game forces you into a specific role (bad)
and that you want a more role with options structure (good)

personally im with you, but i feel much different issues
i think the classes are so “universal” that you have no purpose at all (really bad)

i would push for something closer to traditional roles
but still have the ability to specialize in non traditional aspects
for example, a ranger that can specialize into a support healer

in other words, (and what i think the goal was in the first place)
not to make every class universal, no purpose classes

but make each class able to specialize into a role thats not traditionally part of thier repertoire

wich doing it this way, would open a world of options that has only ever been
available in the old pen and paper D&D style games (custom inclusions)

You missed the point. For example, take kiting. Every class has some form of it, but while the ranger and thief are masters of it, with elementalists a close third; while on the other end of the spectrum, guardians and mesmers are seriously lacking in this department.

For another example, the thief has a very limited support option, though it could be a lifesaver if used correctly. A guardian has tons of support unless he specced especially to actually avoid them (zeal/radiance spirit builds, for example, but you still give blinds and vuln), but they seriously lack an panic button to actually prevent wipes.

Yes, everyone does damage and helps the party, just everyone does that differently and not that visibly. But I can’t see how visible if you want utilities to be, unless you want a flashy icon showing that “OMW this rangers does snare!!!!!!!”.

Not trying all professions ends up in this situation. I always saw necros land traps but never understood what they actually do. Than I started a necro with a staff and I unlocked those skills. I have read what they do and used them and, man, it really felt different. Than I went back to the other character and I was looking for a necro with a staff to see those markers. I found one and i followed him till I could see him using those skills. I went through them and the effects were now “visible” to me. I know what I had to expect and it happened.

My advice is to try to play all professions for a bit till you unlock a few skills and then focus on your main. It will feel a lot different than it feels now. Learn what others are doing and use it to your and their advantage. If you see players not knowing how to use those skills, tell them, so they will learn too and see the game differently

my point was to say that as far as i understand
the bland, feeling of being an afterthought, universal classes
was thier attempt to be unique in the fact they broke from the traditional roles
of the classes, as standardized over decades of gaming history

and the whole weapon forced skills deal, is meant to bring more
uniformity to gameplay, so people cant QQ over copy/paste builds
and rotations, as much seeing as now everyone has the same base skillset

and that under that kind of system, they are only cheapening the quality and experience of thier product

i have played every class, and they all feel lacking, washed out

for me, the true enemy here is the weapon forced skillsets
im not against weapon BASED skills, where its obvious you need to wield a specific weapon to use it, ie, rain of arrows, requires a bow
even if its only thematically correct ie, ele’s dagger first slot skill on air
could also use scepter, but not staff, while the fire skill could also be for staff, but not scepter

loosen the grip a bit, let us theme our chararcters to our personal playstyle
and people will be happier

im not saying they need to build a “on the fly” balance managment system to support this kind of system
but weapon based variants shouldnt be too difficult
as is with everything, the concept is the easy part,
i could, and would be,very willing to do that myself, (minus balance adjustments)

implementation is the killer, with all its trial and error, time and effort
technicalities and programming

The reson i dont try to take a “side” is because there are parts that are good, and parts that are bad.
The whole base of this topic is indepth design and not something you can clearly see unless you play mmorpg-s and rpg-s since they are out. and i cant express myself good as i should, to make my points clear.

As for try them out. I did. I would not even start a topic like this without checking out all class atleast in pvp. But i alredy have all classes up to 40-50 alredy. And did WvWvW and normal pvp to. Quite a lot actually. And i still cant decide on a class, because some stuff bothers me. At first only a few things, but later on i get the feeling i picked a wrong class and it is not fitting me.
To the point the game becomes unplayable. I just dont see resons why should i look for a problem in myself in this topic. But might be, that i am to picky? At any rate. Even if the game is awesome, if you cant pick a class you like ( or there is none in the game) it is no use to you.
Ill try this halloween event, but not sure ill waste to moch time on the game till some expansion, unless some big changes are made i guess.
Dont say that i wont play at all, since its free, but will play cosiderably less right now.

" And i still cant decide on a class, because some stuff bothers me.
At first only a few things, but later on i get the feeling i picked a wrong class and it is not fitting me.
To the point the game becomes unplayable. "

thats my sentiment exactly
which is why i used to make and support tons of suggestions in other games

eventually i realised that the only true way to fix this issue
of not finding a suitable class
would be to add an entire new class system into the game
where as you can choose from the normal classes
or create a “non-class” hero, such as found in single player games like
kingdoms of amalur

such a system requires sorting out skills into tiers and various filters
to prevent extreame balance issues
i have even offered to factor the whole mess out on paper for other games
but to no avail,

and with this post i make that same offer here,
i make no presumption that i could do a better job, or as good of one,
just that i am willing to do my part, to make this or any game i patronize
a satisfactory experiance

This is going to sound bad, but this original post is the only critique / suggestion I’ve fully read for GW2. I’m in complete agreement with your post OP.

I spend more time in the mists failing to find a build / weapon combo I enjoy than I do out in the world actually having fun with my class. Every class (except for Guardian, and maybe Mesmer) feels extremely flimsy, and completely reliant on 1 or 2 ineffective class gimmicks to me. Sadly those gimmicks have either incredibly long cooldowns (even if traited into), or are just plain weak.

I think the biggest problem is trying to get rid of the trinity in the first place. I would love for the trinity to be knocked out of MMO’s, but for that to happen either everyone would be extremely over powered, or we’d all be very under powered. Currently I feel (aside from Guardian) most of all the classes feel very under powered.

The very same thing happened in Guild Wars 1. I spent weeks trying to find a class I liked. None of them felt really good to me, so I just gave up on GW until Nightfall came out.

I think this is a trend with ANet though, and I’m assuming this will happen with GW2 as well. They just need time to refine the game, balance classes, and add more variety.

Great post OP, thanks for this thread.

I feel there still is some kind of trinity, it’s just dumbed down to:

Tank: Guardian (the only one that can stand a pounding)
DPS: More or less every class, depending on what weapon you use.
Healing: The one that come closest is the Elementalist.

It was mentioned self healing, thus no healing class was needed,
…still waiting for the healing skills that can keep up with the incomming
damage in PvP and WvWvW.

There quite a few things I find unbalanced, which need attention,
I think the largest mistake though, is the lack of custom skill bars,
as well as the traits, some of the ‘trait-tree’s need some serious attention.