Guild Wars 2

Currently the condition damage system is bad in PvE and op in PvP. In PvE you’ve got the problem, that every class is using condition effects – mainly the dmg conditions, so bleed, burn and poison. Confusion isn’t useful for PvE, as most enemies don’t spam their skills. So someone, who is specced entirely for condition dmg, like a necromancer or some rangers and engineers, lose their dmg if they are in a group with someone else, who is not specced to deal condition dmg but still inflicts them by accident. Generally in the open PvE world you’ve got the problem, that there is a cap for bleeding dmg, so a conditionmancer loses a lot of his dmg.

To solve this problem, I’ve got a suggestion as well for PvE, as for PvP. Instead of overwriting the old conditions by inflicting a new one, there should be a new mechanic that uses the average of the condition dmg between all the players that inflicted one condition (bleed for example). So, if player one was alone and inflicted bleed with 600 condition dmg, his bleed deals the dmg for having 600 condition dmg. If there is another player with only 200 condition dmg, then the system uses the average between both their condition dmg to calculate the dmg of the bleed stacks – this would mean, that the bleed does deal dmg for 400 condition dmg. (The dmg dealt counts only for the player with the highest condition dmg, so you don’t get any problems with your agro system and who-killed-who.)

What would happen if you implement a system like this?

In a group of 5 people normally everyone is using some conditions, no matter if he wants to or not. Guardians inflict burn due to their virtue, elementalists can’t really stop to inflict burn and bleed. If there is someone, who is entirely specced into condition dmg, then he does still lose some of the dmg he could potentially deal – but therefor he increases the dmg of other party members. So his usefulness for the entire group increases, as he does increase their dmg significantly.
This system would work in PvP as well, as there most of the times you either have 1vs1 or 2vs2 situations and a lot more condition removal. It wouldn’t be that significant there as it was in PvE. Allthough I would suggest to lower the dmg of conditions generally for PvP and WvW for something like ~15%.

What do you think about a change like this?

Do you know how the condition system works?

Any condition damage that is currently affecting a target, will update per tick according to the source character’s stats…

So that means when i come in whit my full condition dmg necro and you cast around 10 stacks of bleeding and i cast around 20 stacks of bleeding the 20 stacks are calculated for you on your cond dmg basis and on mine

the thing is when you play condition dmg you have to consider this:

1) stacking and duration
2) cond dmg stats

Most players whit condition builds handle this wrong making them to way to less dmg. but that’s not becausse of the team thats becausse of the player nothandling condition dmg the correct way.

Allthough I would suggest to lower the dmg of conditions generally for PvP and WvW for something like ~15%.

just lol, no really just lol, if they do that nobody games condition builds anymore there than they all go zerk build in zerk groups

Currently the condition dmg system works like this:

Player 1 is using a skill to inflict 10 stacks of bleed. He is specced for condition dmg and has around ~800 condition dmg.

Player 2 is using a skill to inflict 1 stack of bleed. He isn’t specced for condition dmg and has only ~200 condition dmg.

What happens?
The target has 11 stacks of bleed now. 10 of these stacks come from player 1, 1 stack comes from player 2. The problem: The current system calculates the dmg with the condition dmg of the last player, who inflicted one specific condition. So the dmg of the bleed stacks is calculated for having only 200 condition dmg. Player 1, who is specced for condition dmg, loses his entire dmg.

It’s the same for poison and burn. The condition is always overwritten (you can see that by having your cursor above the icon, it shows always the last player who inflicted the condition as the source of its dmg). In PvP this isn’t very important, normally fights don’t last longer than 10-20 seconds and conditions become cleaned very fast. In PvE this system is extremly bad for everyone who wants to specc into condition dmg, because he loses a lot of his dmg if there is another one, who inflicts condition by accident without being specced into condition dmg.

I know what you mean, but I think you confound there something:

GW2-Wiki: Any condition damage that is currently affecting a target, will update per tick according to the source character’s stats. For example, An Engineer may inflict Bleed with an Elixir Gun toolkit and then swap to a pair of +condition damage pistols in order to increase the damage over time, even if no further conditions are inflicted.

In this example, the engineer remains the source of the condition dmg, so if he increases his own dmg, then the dmg of the bleeding stacks increases immediatly. But if someone is overwriting the condition stacks and becomes the new source of its dmg, then it is the condition dmg of player 2 that is counted for the calculating system. That is what I want to change, because it makes condition dmg builds worthless in the open PvE world and only mediocre in dungeons.

Peter, you got it wrong. The way you understood the current system explains your suggestion, but both is wrong.

Intensity stacking conditions (bleed):
Each player causes his own stacks of bleeding. If Player A with 110 bleeding damage causes 3 stacks of bleedings for 10s and player B with 80 bleedings damage causes 10 stacks of bleeding for 15s it will be like this: This mob will receive (110 * 3 + 80 * 10 =) 1,130 damage per second within the first 10s then (80 * 10 =) 800 dmg/s in the following 5s. Each player gets his own malice and damage accounted. No matter of the order of infliction or other players’ interferrence.

Duration stacking conditions (burn, poison):
Same as before; Each player causes his own duration of burning. If Player A with 110 burning damage causes 10s and player B with 80 burning damage causes 15s it will be like this: This mob will receive 110 damage per second within the first 10s then 80 dmg/s in the following 15s. The higher damage will be applies first, no matter of the order of infliction or other players’ interferrence.

Now back to your suggestion:
what ? No, the current system is fine. The problem is the stacking limit and the inferiority of condition damage (in PvE).

Condition damage should not be nerfed in PvE. Necromancers fear should be nerfed in PvP but usually conditions are no problem in PvP if you know how to clean yourself from them. And seriously. A PvP player without condition removal is like a PvP player without stun breaker. It’s your own choice not to break stuns or remove conditions.

Necromancers fear needs to be nerfed in PvP. It’s or was the strongest condition in-game and increases in damage by 50% for each condition on your enemy. That’s usually about 50%-5×50% dmg.

@Nretep: Don’t get me wrong there, I would appreciate it if the system works the way you described it, but it definitly contradicts my experiences. If I’m looking at the death recap in pvp, the dmg of bleeding would have to be divided into the dmg dealt through bleeding by every player that had inflicted bleeding. But currently it just shows the entire dmg that has been dealt through bleeding and only one player as its source. Is there any way to proof your system?

@GreenNekoHaunt: Currently Necromancers are inflicting bleed, poison and burn extremly fast, additionally cripple, chill, vulnerability, blind and fear. It’s not just their fear, to have burn gave them just access to far too many conditions. Even having max condition removal (like aether renewal on the elementalist) you can’t clean all these conditions anymore, they are just too many and inflicted way too fast to get rid of them.

@Peter – simple thing – I am burning guardian and I was in fight with a chamipon fire imp.
in fight was also trap condi ranger and some engineer.
ranger was dropping fire field and everyone who shooted throught them inflicted something like 1sec. of burn.
and most of time burning didn’t have to named source of burning – that’s because"sources" of separate ticks was too many and system named above was working.
btw. in case of burning “Source” is not last person who applied burning but person which burning is ticking right now

and funny thing everytime when I applied burning source was empty – otherwise it was changing just about every second

in case of bleeding – “Source” may be player who inflicted last their tick, or player who inflicted strongest one…. not sure because I bleed my enemies only with ranger – and on ranger I have no time to giving too much to the “source” of bleeding…

Peter Buch.8071:

@GreenNekoHaunt: Currently Necromancers are inflicting bleed, poison and burn extremly fast, additionally cripple, chill, vulnerability, blind and fear. It’s not just their fear, to have burn gave them just access to far too many conditions. Even having max condition removal (like aether renewal on the elementalist) you can’t clean all these conditions anymore, they are just too many and inflicted way too fast to get rid of them.

Keep in mind burning has cool down of 10 seconds and holds only 4 seconds giving you 6 seconds with no condition. The elementalist has more abilities than just aether renewal to remove quite a handful of boons. Plus a necromancer usually has quite a handful of cooldowns on their staff abilities and those can still be dodged if you know how and when to.

It is as I mentioned in another thread the players decision on how much condition removal they put on them. Then again you have to divide PvE from PvP as in PvP the condition damage is much stronger than in PvE.
The necromancer is supposed to be the class with the most conditions.
If you know how to fight a condi necromancer than you can do so.
I bet I know plenty of tricks I also use on my PvE elementalist to remove plenty of conditions.

First of all if you compare the output dmg of the cond damge vs power crit builds its pretty much the same (besides full zerk builds)

so no need to change it no need to nerfe Anet dit great job on balancing and making any type of build worth playing…

so where does it go wrong:

A people don’t think they think i have tank build nothing can kill me
B they have no feeling whit the build and most of the times run around around like chickens whit out head
C people form an idea whit out having full understanding of what there doing
D people don’t understand team play

if i do arah whit private team takes around 20min if i do it whit random team there kitten ed we start kicking after 40 min

like my mesmer has one stun breaker no cond removal no toughness only a bid of healing when i play it whit descent team i never die you know why? its just because we do think about team setup and team combo skills and healing and cond removal and power to kill fast…

like i said learn the game first fully do play cond builds and learn to handle them than at least you will know on you’re power builds and survival builds when to go dmg and when to defence

and than you would know that nerfing cond dmg is not needed u would even say stacking should gain a buff

also about fire on necro:

a you need 30 points in power trait line and you need crit hit before you can apply fire
so if you wantto use fire dmg descent as necro you’re pretty much the equivalent of a glass canon build but than on condition setup.

still you dont outrun zerk builds whit cond dmg and you still do the same dmg as any other descent build out there

Peter Buch.8071:

@Nretep: Don’t get me wrong there, I would appreciate it if the system works the way you described it, but it definitly contradicts my experiences. If I’m looking at the death recap in pvp, the dmg of bleeding would have to be divided into the dmg dealt through bleeding by every player that had inflicted bleeding. But currently it just shows the entire dmg that has been dealt through bleeding and only one player as its source. Is there any way to proof your system?

Then your experience is wrong. Don’t look at the conditions “source”, but look at your numbers. If I inflict burning and someone else inflicts burning on the same target, you either see your ticks, or you don’t. The one who has higher malice get the ticks and sees his damage. If I inflict bleeding, I see my ticks and the number of my ticks. They vary by my weapon and my might, but not others’ bleedings.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

@Peter – simple thing – I am burning guardian and I was in fight with a chamipon fire imp.
in fight was also trap condi ranger and some engineer.
ranger was dropping fire field and everyone who shooted throught them inflicted something like 1sec. of burn.
and most of time burning didn’t have to named source of burning – that’s because"sources" of separate ticks was too many and system named above was working.
btw. in case of burning “Source” is not last person who applied burning but person which burning is ticking right now

and funny thing everytime when I applied burning source was empty – otherwise it was changing just about every second

in case of bleeding – “Source” may be player who inflicted last their tick, or player who inflicted strongest one…. not sure because I bleed my enemies only with ranger – and on ranger I have no time to giving too much to the “source” of bleeding…

To explain your statement.

• You don’t see a “source” when you are the source.
• The “source” of a bleeding stack might be the last inflicted one since it defined the duration bar (white corner). But that’s irrelevant.

As I explained earlier, burning has a malice priority. When others inflict it, try to get more malice than them and your burn hits rather then theirs. And here remember, that might also boosts your malice.

i compromised with a hybrid build for my mesmer not full condition centered, i still have a fair amount of condition damage (even though really low if you look at a full condition build) and a fair amount of direct damage. according to what i run i boost the direct damage or the condition damage. and so far this is the only solution i found.

Nretep.2564:

To explain your statement.

• You don’t see a “source” when you are the source.
• The “source” of a bleeding stack might be the last inflicted one since it defined the duration bar (white corner). But that’s irrelevant.

As I explained earlier, burning has a malice priority. When others inflict it, try to get more malice than them and your burn hits rather then theirs. And here remember, that might also boosts your malice.

hey that one I didn’t know earlier
so that means that I had better condi damage than trap ranger? o geez what that trap ranger had to wear….

btw. anyone checked more catiously whos condi damage is taken on active efect of VoJ?
from my actual experience it looks like anybody have their own tick for which their malice is taken….

Why does a new thread on this topic pop up every day. Just go post in the old ones.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Sollution-Condition-Stacking-Boons/first