Guild Wars 2

Note: This isn’t a small suggestion, itd’d add a lot to the game and would take a lot of work to implement. I think it’d only do the game good too, managing to please both sides of the argument.

I’ve seen people complaining about the skill system, saying it doesn’t allow builds. I feel they’re wrong about this, but they aren’t far off. There aren’t too many combinations we can use for skills. On the other hand, I actually like the skill system due to how it works, giving us everything so it doesn’t just feel like we’re strong at endgame, it rolls well with the "endgame starts at level 1 (or 30 in this case) concept.

The people who have complained really haven’t offered a logical alternative and just suggest changing the core gameplay. They clearly don’t have any idea of game design and don’t realize the re-percussions that would happen.

I (or at least I believe I) have come with a solution that would please both parties, while keeping the system fairly similar, still basing the weapons on skills instead of allowing us to slot a bunch of skills.
To start, weaponskills will be catagorized into 3 colours, green, yellow and red.

Green – Skill 1, no CD skills
Yellow – Moderate skills, low CD
Red – High CD strong skills

For example, staff mesmer.
Skill 1 is green
Skill 2 is yellow
Skill 3 is red
Skill 4 is yellow
Skill 5 is red

The concept is allowing us to pick our weapon skills for each weapon.
Instead of giving us 5 skills per weapon, we get 7 or 8 and get to choose which 5 we can use.

The concept of the weapon system is still their, I can only use staff skills while using a staff, but this opens up much more builds without really effecting the current system (besides the meta at least, it would need to adapt).

For main hands you NEED a green and a yellow, the last skill can be red or yellow.
For offhands you NEED a yellow, last skill can be red or yellow
For 1 handed weapons you NEED a green and 2 yellows, last skills can red or yellow.

I find it’d add a lot to the game and would add more builds, the weapon by default would be the default weapon without any changes so if you don’t like choosing skills you don’t need to.

Before you post “I think it’s fine”, stop. I think it’s fine too, but it can be better than fine.

I am now bumping this topic, there should be an option to do so.

I had a topic like this. No one cared to reply. The GW2 community sucks… or people think it is just a bad idea… or people are just to lazy to login and respond. Played the Elementalist b/c they get 20 skills per weapon and still got bored with them.
Example Staff…
I would replace Fire skill 4 to something else… I hate this skill
I would replace Water skill 2 to something else… This skill sucks solo and kiting
I would replace Air skill 1, 2, 3 and 4… ok I shouldn’t be able to replace all 4 of them, but those are the ones I do not like. 1 (chain lightning) hits non-agressive mobs and the Ele Profession is a wimp. skill 2 just takes to long to use, skill 3 pushs 1 mob when skill 1 has pulled 3 mobs thus making it suck, 4 is run speed (may keep) however don’t always need this.
I would replace Earth skill 5 just b/c the visual sucks and I can’t see it sometimes.

So the skills that I don’t like, I hardly use. Now I have limited myself to even less skills. Things start to get stale at this point and it is worse for other professions. I like the idea of skills associated to weapons but feel it is missing the mark.

But that wouldn’t please both parties. I enjoy the logic behind the skills. I remember when i played wow how much I hated how I could rend with a mace, or stun with a sword. The game in it’s current state is all about what weapon at what time. It’s based around the simple logic “bashing things bash, magic things pew pew”.

Should they remove this simple outline it would revamp the entirety of the game. Suddenly you get something that is really hard to balance. If I understood you correctly you mean that all staff skills are usable for someone with a staff, right? Then you’re proposal can be boiled down to the removal off classes. You aren’t proposing a difference in mechanics, your suggesting a new game.

Every game needs a box to work within, anything else would be ludicrous, especially if you want a shot at the competitive scene.

My point is, the solution wouldn’t suit both parties, it would only suit you. The weapon swapping in itself makes for very different game play, all within the frames of one class. Removing the need to weapon swap would ultimately change the core mechanics of the game. Elementalists can’t swap since they have elements, so what weapon do you bring to the fray? “Oh why, I can just choose from this plethora of skills”.

I’m all for having more weapon skill options, I do think it’s a problem that I’m playing my character in exactly the same way at level 30, as I am at level 80 (Unless I suddenly decide to change my weapon set, even traits don’t make much of a difference except in behind the scenes stuff)

Personally I’d not only like to see more weapon skills, but also a better trait system! I’d hate to use WoW as an example, but at a certain level you can get an ability as a Warrior called “Titan’s Grip” which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon in each hand! This changes up the way you play your character significantly.

The way GW2 is designed at the moment, the level cap should of been 30, the next 50 levels don’t add anything new.

I really like this idea. It would add a little more depth to the gameplay. We already get a lot of choices for the rest of skills, why not these ones too?

Great idea, I’d say for:
2H: 2 green 2 yellow 1 red.
1H:
mainhand: 2 green 1 yellow
offhand: 1 yellow 1 red.

Kerfilicious.5862:

But that wouldn’t please both parties. I enjoy the logic behind the skills. I remember when i played wow how much I hated how I could rend with a mace, or stun with a sword. The game in it’s current state is all about what weapon at what time. It’s based around the simple logic “bashing things bash, magic things pew pew”.

Should they remove this simple outline it would revamp the entirety of the game. Suddenly you get something that is really hard to balance. If I understood you correctly you mean that all staff skills are usable for someone with a staff, right? Then you’re proposal can be boiled down to the removal off classes. You aren’t proposing a difference in mechanics, your suggesting a new game.

Every game needs a box to work within, anything else would be ludicrous, especially if you want a shot at the competitive scene.

My point is, the solution wouldn’t suit both parties, it would only suit you. The weapon swapping in itself makes for very different game play, all within the frames of one class. Removing the need to weapon swap would ultimately change the core mechanics of the game. Elementalists can’t swap since they have elements, so what weapon do you bring to the fray? “Oh why, I can just choose from this plethora of skills”.

This isn’t changing the game to the point were a new game is needed. The balance of new skills is the developers problem. I think you have missed the point of this suggestion entirely. The skills 1-5 are still attached to the WEAPON. The weapon isn’t limited to 5 skills… it now comes with more that players can pick and choose from.

Example may be…
Staff Fire-
Replace the roll dodge fire wall, with the ground target fire wall. Why? b/c other players (not just me) might find a situation were placing a firewall on a ground target is better then roll dodge with fire wall and still want to use the Staff and not a Secptor.

Kerfilicious.5862:

But that wouldn’t please both parties. I enjoy the logic behind the skills. I remember when i played wow how much I hated how I could rend with a mace, or stun with a sword. The game in it’s current state is all about what weapon at what time. It’s based around the simple logic “bashing things bash, magic things pew pew”.

I don’t think you get my idea.

A sword isn’t going to have a mace skill, just a choice of sword skills.

This is very interesting. Plus one for you! (How come nobody ever uses the plus feature? I never see anybody with more than +1).

Untouch.2541:

Kerfilicious.5862:

But that wouldn’t please both parties. I enjoy the logic behind the skills. I remember when i played wow how much I hated how I could rend with a mace, or stun with a sword. The game in it’s current state is all about what weapon at what time. It’s based around the simple logic “bashing things bash, magic things pew pew”.

I don’t think you get my idea.

A sword isn’t going to have a mace skill, just a choice of sword skills.

Another point Kerfilicious made was that everyone who uses Staff would get the same 7 skills to pick 5 of.

I didn’t get that from your OP. I am assuming that Mesmers would get Mesmer Staff skills, Guardians would get Guardian Staff skills, and so forth.

So each class would get 7 Class > 2H Weapon skill to pick 5 of for each 2H weapon (e.g. Staff or Greatsword).

I actually like this idea. It would add some depth to the game and customization to the character build.

Seeing as we get an effectively infinite number of Skill Points the additional skills could be purchased as well.

I actually made similar suggestions during the beta tests. I think everyone is right that once you unlock all the weapon skills you can get, the gameplay can get a little repetative. I still really like the idea that the skills are tied to the weapon. It seemed too restrictive at first, but over all I have enjoyed it.

Overall I just want more options for my current weapons, like the OP has mentioned, just having 7-8 per weapon would be absolutely outstanding and really allow more custom builds. I think the OP’s idea of having the slots locked down to certain types is a fair suggestion of how to balance it, but that would just depend on the skills they create really. (I’m assuming they will create them… it gives me reasons to keep playing) Even if they created a way we had to purchase the skills would be OK with me as long as the options were there.

As far as the complaints made on the specific skills of the Elementalist, I’m not sure this is the thread to do that in. We are pushing for more (new) options, not modifying existing ones. And honestly, if we got additional skills like we are requesting, you would be able to switch out the ones you didn’t like for the new ones!

This idea does seem to keep both sides happy – the sides being those that like the skills being tied to weapons and the other side wishing for more customization in their characters.

The only grip I do have with skills being tied to a weapon is what if I personally hate the 2 of the 3 mace skills my Guardian has, but I’ve found a rare mace that is tons better than the current sword I was using. I can switch to the mace for the improved dmg and stats, but I don’t enjoy the abilites. This option would hopefully remedy this potentional as I would also be able to chose from a few different skills.

I do still think the core skills should be the default skills, so players that dont’ want to bother can still just run along as they have been. But for those of us that want to customize the build – and more importantly, add to the overall enjoyment of the game – having just a few additional skills would be worth their digital weight in gold!

Very interesting thread. i agree with all that’s been said. It’s been fun playing with my thief using seperate skills depending on which weapons i’m wielding, but when i stick to lets say d/d, then thats it. i’m stuck with the same set of skills forever, and i hardly change the other ones (utility/elite). having several skills that we can choose from for each weapon we use would be a huge upgrade to the gameplay.

let’s say main hand; sword. has 5-7 different skills to choose from.
offhand; dagger. same number of skills.

and the dual wielding skills get the same treatment too. several skills to choose from.

I, again, am going to bump this thread.

I’ve been thinking of this exact idea for a while now and going “God, ANet could’ve gone this direction and it would’ve been so much better.” It’s nice to see someone else willing to put it into eloquent form. +1

I’m going to disagree. These proposed changes would upset the balance and dynamics of the current game. It really WOULD redefine the combat system completely. I understand there are some skills that we do not like and that we feel X weapon should do Y.

But you cannot please everyone. Your changes would tick off just as many people as it would make happy, worse it would be toxic for the game in the long run via both balance issues and serious dynamic changes.

Every weapon has it’s niche currently. Some tweaking needs to be done but just because things are not useful to you doesn’t mean someone else doesn’t like it. Kind of like Guardian. I agree it needs a different “flavor” of ranged damage because the two available have very odd feels to them. Fact is however scepter and Staff can current serve just fine as ranged damage options.

Warrior doesn’t necessarily have superior options. It has straight forwards options that are easy to use and focused 100% on damage. As the game matures more people will appreciate what Guardian ranged has to offer.

Wouldn’t it be less complicated if all weapons shared the same pool for spells for the same slots? Such as:

All 1 hand main hand weapon skill slots 1-3 can be used with any 1 hand weapon that profession can use. And it would be the same with offhands and if the profession can use multiple different 2 hand weapons.

But of course you could not use any ranged spells if you were using and axe and sword combo if you were a ranger, etc.

You know this is a neat idea. I think at first Anet wanted traits to modify weapon skills to give them variety, but it became too complicated.

Having a small pool of colour coded skills to choose from to customize a weapon set is easier to understand and interesting to play with.

Maybe in future expansions they can add something like this instead of having to always figure out new weapons to add to the game.

Your title could use some redoing: it doesn’t really encapsulate the thread content very well.

I agree very much with some kind of way to customize the skill-sets available to each weapon. I think that weapon-specific skill pools are fine, but having just the one, unalterable set for each weapon leaves much to be desired.

I appreciate your detailed and well considered reply, but I do not believe that the changes would be as sweeping as you think. I’ll detail my responses below

Ralathar.7236:

I’m going to disagree. These proposed changes would upset the balance and dynamics of the current game. It really WOULD redefine the combat system completely. I understand there are some skills that we do not like and that we feel X weapon should do Y.

I believe that as the system currently stands some weapons are vastly better than other for some classes. Greatsword for Guardian and Staff for Mesmer are 2 that come to mind. Not only do the damage outputs of the weapons need to be brought into balance within the class/weapon combo, but the utility and combo skills need to be balanced as well. Once the current skills are balanced and new skills added (3/2/2 for 2h/Main/Off hand, respectively) with emphasis on different “utility” skills (having a non-damage or damage +Condition/Boon) that this would be no more unbalanced than the current setup. Particularly if, as a part of this retooling, certain types of spells, maybe the Red ones, were limited to one per weapon pair.

Ralathar.7236:

But you cannot please everyone. Your changes would tick off just as many people as it would make happy, worse it would be toxic for the game in the long run via both balance issues and serious dynamic changes.

I covered balance above. Yes, it would be a bit of a dynamic change. However, if the theme of the weapon is kept close to the original vision I do not believe that these changes would disrupt the flavor of the game any more than being able to change your Skills out between combat does.

Ralathar.7236:

Every weapon has it’s niche currently. Some tweaking needs to be done but just because things are not useful to you doesn’t mean someone else doesn’t like it. Kind of like Guardian. I agree it needs a different “flavor” of ranged damage because the two available have very odd feels to them. Fact is however scepter and Staff can current serve just fine as ranged damage options.

Every weapon has it’s niche, but each weapon is usually about the range it attacks at rather than any other defining factor. Staff is a long range weapon, Scepter is medium, Daggers and Swords are short. Some have a mix or depend on the class for their range. For example the Greatsword is a melee weapon for Guardian and Warrior, but a ranged weapon for Mesmer.

Ralathar.7236:

Warrior doesn’t necessarily have superior options. It has straight forwards options that are easy to use and focused 100% on damage. As the game matures more people will appreciate what Guardian ranged has to offer.

We’re not picking on the Warrior here. We’re looking at adding versatility to every class. If a class wants to focus on Boons they should be able to, or Condition Damage. Or even just straight damage.

The point of adding a choice of weapon attacks based on weapon/class is to add versatility and flexibility, rather than have every Mesmer on the planet using Staff/Sword + Focus.

Riles.4568:

Wouldn’t it be less complicated if all weapons shared the same pool for spells for the same slots?

That would, IMO, be a horrible idea. The point of the OP’s suggestion is, as I stated in the last paragraph of my previous post, to get away from cookie cutter builds, and to promote versatility and flexibility.

As it currently stands when a Mesmer holds a Staff it does drastically different things than when a Guardian holds a Staff. This is good. But it does exactly the same things when every Mesmer holds a Staff.

With the OP’s suggestion each Mesmer could customize how the Staff works for themselves just a bit.

I’m sorry colonel, but even relatively minor changes can have big effects on the play style or viability of things. You are talking about what would amount to incredibly large changes in the grand scheme of things. It would also encourage more min/maxing.

The examples you give for imbalanced weapons are weapons balanced exclusively on damage. I’ve played every class a great deal and while there is some tweaking up/down needed, I currently see reasons to play every weapon. There will always be a “best” for damage. Luckily the game is about more than damage.

You might not see the changes as all that large, but in the area of game design they are ENORMOUS.

Ralathar.7236:

I’m sorry colonel, but even relatively minor changes can have big effects on the play style or viability of things. You are talking about what would amount to incredibly large changes in the grand scheme of things. It would also encourage more min/maxing.

You are being extremely vague with your “big changes on the playstyle or viability of things”. I want some changes in playstyle, I would also like all playstyles to be viable.

I see that it would be a big design change, but IMO it should standardize the playstyles, and balance them with one another rather than the reverse.

Isn’t min/maxing what RPGs are all about? It’s not like we’re playing a MUSH here.

Ralathar.7236:

The examples you give for imbalanced weapons are weapons balanced exclusively on damage. I’ve played every class a great deal and while there is some tweaking up/down needed, I currently see reasons to play every weapon. There will always be a “best” for damage. Luckily the game is about more than damage.

Mesmer Staff is about damage? I quote from the wiki, which I happen to agree with based on personal experience;

Staff — Focuses on giving conditions to foes and boons to allies.

While you may see reasons to play every weapon, given the correct situation (e.g. some are better for solo, others better in a party) I have to say that not all weapons are created equal in terms of what they bring to the wielder.

Ralathar.7236:

You might not see the changes as all that large, but in the area of game design they are ENORMOUS.

Don’t patronize me, I’ve been modding games and playtesting the changes for over 25 years and have even done a very brief stint as a professional game designer. I know how to look beyond the surface of a change.

I LOVE this idea. +1
(not gonna get involved in the debate that seems to be happening)
but yes. my two cents- This would make the game completely perfect IMO.
peace

This is a great idea. Things do start to feel stale a little bit, and with this idea you could switch up your play style a little without needing to find new weapons or abandoning one or two skills you really love. This satisfies people who have an ability on a weapon they personally dislike and people who want more customization.

@ Ralathar: adding these wouldn’t introduce crazy game-changing unbalancable problems. It would be the same as adding a couple new slot skills for each class. And min/maxing doesn’t have to be a bad thing As has been said, people who can’t be bothered don’t have to change a thing.

Sry my brain can’t keep up with the colour skill swaping suggestion. I guess i need to make it simple

We need more “spare” weapon skill which we can change when out of combat (just like utility). The skill should be consist of:
-Main weapon (either hand).
-Off hand
-Main weapon (both hand).

Main skill (autoattack) will have different skillset than the rest, and there will be a skill that share cooldown with other skill in order to prevent skill exploit (ex: sword main hand riposte share cd with offhand sword riposte).

The purpose of those “spare” skill is to match the weapon with our current trait, making it more effective instead of locked down in several weapon cos of simple “trait” problem. Then we will have balancing issues yada-yada but im sure it will make more benefit than problem since that means you control your own playstyle.

I like this idea too. Obviously the most powerful skills would need to be on the higher timer. Having multiple skills for each weapon would make the game more challenging to balance but having the cd timers would certainly make it easier.

If not now, perhaps this is something the devs can look into for the future with the first expansion pack?

I would just like to say I think this is a good idea.

However if I may make a suggestion of my own. What if each weapon (or attunement for eles) had 2 sets of skills. I’ll use the Staff as an exmple.

Lets say the staff has skills, 1A, 1B, 1C, 1D, 1E and it also has 2A, 2B, 2C, 2D, 2E.

An you pick which skill goes into each slot. But you can only put an A skill in an A slot, and only a D skill in a D slot.

Where A skills are generally simple, basic and repeatable, going up to E skills which are epic and have long cooldowns.
Something like this also leaves room for expansion, as they could make a 3rd or a 4th set at a later date.

@Half Tooth.1867: The main problem of your suggestion is not every 4th or 5th skill is situation changing and have long cd/demanding (simply put it De oh kitten skill). I’d say let us pick every skill combination that we want (with those unique exception on my post).

Picking too many powerhouse will result in kittening yourself since it take too long/point cost. A player with at least 20% of active brain cell will avoid this way and pick a good combination instead.

Colonel Kernel.7506:

You are being extremely vague with your “big changes on the playstyle or viability of things”. I want some changes in playstyle, I would also like all playstyles to be viable.

I think we all would.

I see that it would be a big design change, but IMO it should standardize the playstyles, and balance them with one another rather than the reverse.

Standardization is bad mmkkay? Variety, even if not perfectly balanced, is much better.

Isn’t min/maxing what RPGs are all about? It’s not like we’re playing a MUSH here.

Min/maxing is the exact opposite of what you want. Because you want everything to be viable and viable is a relative concept based on the viability of everything else around it. Therefore min/maxing is the natural enemy of mutual viability.

Mesmer Staff is about damage? I quote from the wiki, which I happen to agree with based on personal experience;

Staff — Focuses on giving conditions to foes and boons to allies.

While you may see reasons to play every weapon, given the correct situation (e.g. some are better for solo, others better in a party) I have to say that not all weapons are created equal in terms of what they bring to the wielder.

Solo it’s not the only important thing. What they bring to the wielder and what they bring to the part are part of what gives each weapon it’s own unique personality. Every weapon is better or worse in some situations, while some are abit more flexible. Balance isn’t perfect, but it will improve. Lets try and fix what we have instead of reinvent the wheel here.

Don’t patronize me, I’ve been modding games and playtesting the changes for over 25 years and have even done a very brief stint as a professional game designer. I know how to look beyond the surface of a change.

Then you know exactly how far reaching the proposed changes in reality are, unless you are too invested in your own supported idea to be objective. Because this essentially turns the entire game balance on it’s head. And lets not even START to touch combo fields in relation to all this.

@ Ralathar
Our post tree is getting a bit big, so I’m going to chop it down here. I only really want to reply to two statements you made.

By standardization I don’t mean that every weapon should play the same. I mean they should have equivalent levels of functionality. Take Mesmer, a class I’m pretty familiar with. The Prestige (offhand Torch, spell 4) is a pretty unique spell. It’s tricky to use but very nice when you get the knack of it. I consider it balanced even though it doesn’t compare to any other ability in the game that I am aware of.

By comparison, I don’t consider Phantasmal Swordsman (Offhand sword spell 5) to be balanced very well at all. It’s a stationary melee phantasm. What holds still in this game when it’s not in your face beating on you?

Regarding min/maxing, it should be feasible to min/max every playstyle available to that class. It should be possible to make a pure condition damage, or pure damage, pure crit, or whatever build you want to and have it be a viable option.

Colonel Kernel.7506:

@ Ralathar
Our post tree is getting a bit big, so I’m going to chop it down here. I only really want to reply to two statements you made.

By standardization I don’t mean that every weapon should play the same. I mean they should have equivalent levels of functionality. Take Mesmer, a class I’m pretty familiar with. The Prestige (offhand Torch, spell 4) is a pretty unique spell. It’s tricky to use but very nice when you get the knack of it. I consider it balanced even though it doesn’t compare to any other ability in the game that I am aware of.

By comparison, I don’t consider Phantasmal Swordsman (Offhand sword spell 5) to be balanced very well at all. It’s a stationary melee phantasm. What holds still in this game when it’s not in your face beating on you?

Regarding min/maxing, it should be feasible to min/max every playstyle available to that class. It should be possible to make a pure condition damage, or pure damage, pure crit, or whatever build you want to and have it be a viable option.

Phantasmal swordsman does pretty good damage, and while he doesn’t follow them all the time he periodically homes in and leap attacks for good damage. He doesn’t need to follow. What you just listed is not a game flaw but a misunderstanding of how a skill works. The skill also has 1,200 range and a fairly short CD at 15 seconds so you can open with the phantom buying you some time AND dealing damage, and if the fight is not an easy roll then it’ll be up again shortly.

It’s actually a pretty good skill and gets even better if you roll a phantasm build.

I’ve never seen Phantasmal Swordsman move. I will agree that it has good damage.

My current build at level 35ish is a Condition/Shatter build. Can be used for either fairly effectively.

Colonel Kernel.7506:

I’ve never seen Phantasmal Swordsman move. I will agree that it has good damage.

My current build at level 35ish is a Condition/Shatter build. Can be used for either fairly effectively.

I was pretty sure he moved, so I did this weird/odd thing you rarely see on forums. I tested it anyways. He jumps again every 3-5 seconds. Considering how the rest of phantasms work I wouldn’t be surprised if, like others, he lasted until he got killed or the mob died.

Oh, and btw, he DOES proc the leap combo. So if he leaps through your feedback or null field for example he gets chaos armor. So it’s a combo skill as well.

Hey guys, come check up the recent progress on this thread and give me your feed back:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Improved-Combat-Skill-system/page/3

This is actually a good idea for expansion content.

What they SHOULD be doing in expansions is adding weapon skill-sets. In other words, all weapons have one set of skills right now. When they expand the game, they should add another FULL set of skills to each weapon available.

So you could have two of the same exact set of weapons with two totally different 1-5 skill sets.

The only way it would be balanced is if they let you choose an entire set of skills instead of swapping each one out individually. It’s already hard enough finding OP combinations let alone ones that they introduce by letting people mix/match multiple weapon skills individually.