Guild Wars 2

Mirta.5029:

Jemmi.6058:

Mirta.5029:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mirta.5029:

To be honest stats are an outdated mechanic and an RPG can go without it easily. No rules or boundaries would make it a sandbox and there’s a market for that as well.

To be honest RPGs are an outdated genre and it’s all about retro indie games.

Actually, a game without stats is pretty much a group of people sitting around running improv theatre for each other/themselves. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s less a “game” as we’re talking about here and more a “thing to do to kill some time”.

(Yes, I’ve done this sort of thing, mind you. I lost my taste for it after a few years.)

So chivalry is not a game? No actual game could take the mechanics of this fighting game and use it as its own combat system?
Shooters don’t have stats. They’re not worse as a game because of it.
Dark Messayah didn’t have stats. Just lots of spells.
Imagine an RPG with lots of different items having different uses and abilities, but no stats to speak about.

In my opinion it sounds pretty boring.

Also, in my opinion, guild wars is too light on the stats.

you might want to look into a game with a steeper vertical progression then. Like WoW. Because I prefer actual skill based games.

I have played WoW, and I did enjoy it. I like Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 more though. To say there is no skill involved in any of these games is a bit of an overstretch.

1. Choosing your stats is part of your skill. Preparation in your customization takes thought. Specifically, one must weigh the benefits and costs of choosing certain stats over others and then applying them to your build of traits and general playstyle.

2. Performing your prepared build takes skill. That is why when you run a dungeon with newbies you die a lot more than when you run it with an experienced group. Even if you had the same 5 classes and same 5 sets of gear.

As you told me that I should leave and play WoW because I like stats (even though this game has stats????), I will provide you with the same courtesy. Go play call of duty.

Jemmi.6058:

Mirta.5029:

Jemmi.6058:

Mirta.5029:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mirta.5029:

To be honest stats are an outdated mechanic and an RPG can go without it easily. No rules or boundaries would make it a sandbox and there’s a market for that as well.

To be honest RPGs are an outdated genre and it’s all about retro indie games.

Actually, a game without stats is pretty much a group of people sitting around running improv theatre for each other/themselves. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s less a “game” as we’re talking about here and more a “thing to do to kill some time”.

(Yes, I’ve done this sort of thing, mind you. I lost my taste for it after a few years.)

So chivalry is not a game? No actual game could take the mechanics of this fighting game and use it as its own combat system?
Shooters don’t have stats. They’re not worse as a game because of it.
Dark Messayah didn’t have stats. Just lots of spells.
Imagine an RPG with lots of different items having different uses and abilities, but no stats to speak about.

In my opinion it sounds pretty boring.

Also, in my opinion, guild wars is too light on the stats.

you might want to look into a game with a steeper vertical progression then. Like WoW. Because I prefer actual skill based games.

I have played WoW, and I did enjoy it. I like Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 more though. To say there is no skill involved in any of these games is a bit of an overstretch.

1. Choosing your stats is part of your skill. Preparation in your customization takes thought. Specifically, one must weigh the benefits and costs of choosing certain stats over others and then applying them to your build of traits and general playstyle.

2. Performing your prepared build takes skill. That is why when you run a dungeon with newbies you die a lot more than when you run it with an experienced group. Even if you had the same 5 classes and same 5 sets of gear.

As you told me that I should leave and play WoW because I like stats (even though this game has stats????), I will provide you with the same courtesy. Go play call of duty.

you told me that you want more stats. I assumed “gear progression”.
Now imagine a statless play – you chose your weapons and armor. Armor weighs differently therefore it affects your movement speed, how flexible you are, etc. You chose your weapon, once again that affects how fast you swing it, how much damage you can do, how easy it is to get you off balance, etc. Then you chose whether to do a quick attack or to give your all and risk not being able to steady yourself to defend fast enough. There’s still thought in that. A lot of it actually. There’s also skill.

Mirta.5029:

Jemmi.6058:

Mirta.5029:

Jemmi.6058:

Mirta.5029:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mirta.5029:

To be honest stats are an outdated mechanic and an RPG can go without it easily. No rules or boundaries would make it a sandbox and there’s a market for that as well.

To be honest RPGs are an outdated genre and it’s all about retro indie games.

Actually, a game without stats is pretty much a group of people sitting around running improv theatre for each other/themselves. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s less a “game” as we’re talking about here and more a “thing to do to kill some time”.

(Yes, I’ve done this sort of thing, mind you. I lost my taste for it after a few years.)

So chivalry is not a game? No actual game could take the mechanics of this fighting game and use it as its own combat system?
Shooters don’t have stats. They’re not worse as a game because of it.
Dark Messayah didn’t have stats. Just lots of spells.
Imagine an RPG with lots of different items having different uses and abilities, but no stats to speak about.

In my opinion it sounds pretty boring.

Also, in my opinion, guild wars is too light on the stats.

you might want to look into a game with a steeper vertical progression then. Like WoW. Because I prefer actual skill based games.

I have played WoW, and I did enjoy it. I like Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 more though. To say there is no skill involved in any of these games is a bit of an overstretch.

1. Choosing your stats is part of your skill. Preparation in your customization takes thought. Specifically, one must weigh the benefits and costs of choosing certain stats over others and then applying them to your build of traits and general playstyle.

2. Performing your prepared build takes skill. That is why when you run a dungeon with newbies you die a lot more than when you run it with an experienced group. Even if you had the same 5 classes and same 5 sets of gear.

As you told me that I should leave and play WoW because I like stats (even though this game has stats????), I will provide you with the same courtesy. Go play call of duty.

you told me that you want more stats. I assumed “gear progression”.
Now imagine a statless play – you chose your weapons and armor. Armor weighs differently therefore it affects your movement speed, how flexible you are, etc. You chose your weapon, once again that affects how fast you swing it, how much damage you can do, how easy it is to get you off balance, etc. Then you chose whether to do a quick attack or to give your all and risk not being able to steady yourself to defend fast enough. There’s still thought in that. A lot of it actually. There’s also skill.

I consider speed of weapons swings on each weapon, or speed of movement by weight of armor part of stats. I really like these ideas. I’ve actually suggested something similar before.

These could also be in conjunction with other stats. i.e. you gain more strength at the expense of health, which allows you to use the heavier items but not lose out on attack speed. Alternatively, you could have more agility, which would allow you to move faster in combat, but at the expense of having less strength or health.

There is also skill in the current state of the game.

Jemmi.6058:

These could also be in conjunction with other stats. i.e. you gain more strength at the expense of health, which allows you to use the heavier items but not lose out on attack speed. Alternatively, you could have more agility, which would allow you to move faster in combat, but at the expense of having less strength or health.

those are the stats you would really want to get away from, because now instead of playing it with skill you’re making it easy on yourself and having an advantage against the other person.

Jemmi.6058:

There is also skill in the current state of the game.

Yes, there’s plenty of skill in Guild Wars 2. Because stats actually mean less. It’s all about how you use your abilities. If stats were everything when two beserker warriors would battle it out in PvP the chances of winning would be 50/50. The current situation means that one of them will use his abilities better (example: stun the other player, hit the hell out of him while he’s stunned, use invulnerability, etc), therefore a skilled play. If you were playing Warcraft though, all of it would be basic calculation of stats. Hit, hit, miss, miss, critical hit, etc, no matter your sword goes trough the person or not. Also stats of how much damage you can do would come into play allowing you to one hit a person.

Mirta.5029:

Jemmi.6058:

These could also be in conjunction with other stats. i.e. you gain more strength at the expense of health, which allows you to use the heavier items but not lose out on attack speed. Alternatively, you could have more agility, which would allow you to move faster in combat, but at the expense of having less strength or health.

those are the stats you would really want to get away from, because now instead of playing it with skill you’re making it easy on yourself and having an advantage against the other person.

Jemmi.6058:

There is also skill in the current state of the game.

Yes, there’s plenty of skill in Guild Wars 2. Because stats actually mean less. It’s all about how you use your abilities. If stats were everything when two beserker warriors would battle it out in PvP the chances of winning would be 50/50. The current situation means that one of them will use his abilities better (example: stun the other player, hit the hell out of him while he’s stunned, use invulnerability, etc), therefore a skilled play. If you were playing Warcraft though, all of it would be basic calculation of stats. Hit, hit, miss, miss, critical hit, etc, no matter your sword goes trough the person or not. Also stats of how much damage you can do would come into play allowing you to one hit a person.

Yup I 100% agree. I definitely prefer Guild Wars. I would however, like to see more stats. Stats are not necessarily what make Guild Wars more skill based than wow, you also have action-oriented combat, dodging, trait builds, combo effects etc.

I do not entirely understand your first argument?
“those are the stats you would really want to get away from, because now instead of playing it with skill you’re making it easy on yourself and having an advantage against the other person.”
Personally, I would really like to see these added and think it would add another level of planning to the game and change outcomes quite a bit, due to the larger number of customized combinations. Perhaps you can explain your argument in more detail?

You may want to look up what a Straw Man is as well. You argument was based on stats, not upgrading stats, to which I addressed my replies. Now that you have been informed you changed it to upgrading stats. Here are all your posts in this thread before being schooled

role playing is what makes the basis of a role playing game. Stats and gear go into games that are not role playing games (like Dungeon Defenders, Starcraft).

To be honest stats are an outdated mechanic and an RPG can go without it easily. No rules or boundaries would make it a sandbox and there’s a market for that as well.

So chivalry is not a game? No actual game could take the mechanics of this fighting game and use it as its own combat system?
Shooters don’t have stats. They’re not worse as a game because of it.
Dark Messayah didn’t have stats. Just lots of spells.
Imagine an RPG with lots of different items having different uses and abilities, but no stats to speak about.

you’re making excuses now.
Research dark Messiah
Chivalry: Medieval Warfare is a very nice combat game that as far as I’m aware of you can’t cheat in it
Why are you afraid of a game without stats without even trying one?

At no point was upgrading mentioned, only after the fact when it was shown in both of your examples that you cited used stats did you conveniently change your argument to upgrading. Pretty much every single statement you made was refuted, and when it was, you resorted to personal attacks

I think that stats melted your brain or something
Why are you afraid of a game without stats without even trying one?
you might want to look into a game with a steeper vertical progression then. Like WoW
These are called ad hominems.

Jemmi.6058:

Mirta.5029:

Jemmi.6058:

These could also be in conjunction with other stats. i.e. you gain more strength at the expense of health, which allows you to use the heavier items but not lose out on attack speed. Alternatively, you could have more agility, which would allow you to move faster in combat, but at the expense of having less strength or health.

those are the stats you would really want to get away from, because now instead of playing it with skill you’re making it easy on yourself and having an advantage against the other person.

Jemmi.6058:

There is also skill in the current state of the game.

Yes, there’s plenty of skill in Guild Wars 2. Because stats actually mean less. It’s all about how you use your abilities. If stats were everything when two beserker warriors would battle it out in PvP the chances of winning would be 50/50. The current situation means that one of them will use his abilities better (example: stun the other player, hit the hell out of him while he’s stunned, use invulnerability, etc), therefore a skilled play. If you were playing Warcraft though, all of it would be basic calculation of stats. Hit, hit, miss, miss, critical hit, etc, no matter your sword goes trough the person or not. Also stats of how much damage you can do would come into play allowing you to one hit a person.

Yup I 100% agree. I definitely prefer Guild Wars. I would however, like to see more stats. Stats are not necessarily what make Guild Wars more skill based than wow, you also have action-oriented combat, dodging, trait builds, combo effects etc.

I do not entirely understand your first argument?
“those are the stats you would really want to get away from, because now instead of playing it with skill you’re making it easy on yourself and having an advantage against the other person.”
Personally, I would really like to see these added and think it would add another level of planning to the game and change outcomes quite a bit, due to the larger number of customized combinations. Perhaps you can explain your argument in more detail?

but that’s the thing. You’re planning for combat. That’s strategy. In combat you’re trying to use your abilities to counter your opponent, you dodge his attacks, you jump around him, you know exactly when to get close and what to hit him with. That’s skill. Adding more stats (like strength, agility, etc) makes you plan more (possibly grind for gear that other people won’t have the time to go for) and makes your battling time less skill based (because you can just out-stat the other player). The less stats matter, the more skill you require to have. In guild wars there’s very little stat increase between a green item and an orange item. Stats don’t play as big of a role, making the combat more challenging.

And you do upgrade to different and better weapons in Chivalry. And you do upgrade to better and different weapons and spells in Dark Messiah.

Mirta.5029:

Jemmi.6058:

Mirta.5029:

Jemmi.6058:

These could also be in conjunction with other stats. i.e. you gain more strength at the expense of health, which allows you to use the heavier items but not lose out on attack speed. Alternatively, you could have more agility, which would allow you to move faster in combat, but at the expense of having less strength or health.

those are the stats you would really want to get away from, because now instead of playing it with skill you’re making it easy on yourself and having an advantage against the other person.

Jemmi.6058:

There is also skill in the current state of the game.

Yes, there’s plenty of skill in Guild Wars 2. Because stats actually mean less. It’s all about how you use your abilities. If stats were everything when two beserker warriors would battle it out in PvP the chances of winning would be 50/50. The current situation means that one of them will use his abilities better (example: stun the other player, hit the hell out of him while he’s stunned, use invulnerability, etc), therefore a skilled play. If you were playing Warcraft though, all of it would be basic calculation of stats. Hit, hit, miss, miss, critical hit, etc, no matter your sword goes trough the person or not. Also stats of how much damage you can do would come into play allowing you to one hit a person.

Yup I 100% agree. I definitely prefer Guild Wars. I would however, like to see more stats. Stats are not necessarily what make Guild Wars more skill based than wow, you also have action-oriented combat, dodging, trait builds, combo effects etc.

I do not entirely understand your first argument?
“those are the stats you would really want to get away from, because now instead of playing it with skill you’re making it easy on yourself and having an advantage against the other person.”
Personally, I would really like to see these added and think it would add another level of planning to the game and change outcomes quite a bit, due to the larger number of customized combinations. Perhaps you can explain your argument in more detail?

but that’s the thing. You’re planning for combat. That’s strategy. In combat you’re trying to use your abilities to counter your opponent, you dodge his attacks, you jump around him, you know exactly when to get close and what to hit him with. That’s skill. Adding more stats (like strength, agility, etc) makes you plan more (possibly grind for gear that other people won’t have the time to go for) and makes your battling time less skill based (because you can just out-stat the other player). The less stats matter, the more skill you require to have. In guild wars there’s very little stat increase between a green item and an orange item. Stats don’t play as big of a role, making the combat more challenging.

Hmm, I see what you are getting at. However, I think that building your character up is part of the fun. I also think that planning and preparation your strategy is part of the skill. Skill is a function of stats + preparation/planning + execution. Take away stats and preparation, you only have execution. It sounds like that is what you want, but I would have to disagree that it is the most skill-focused option. I am unsure if it would be more challenging, in fact the most challenging option is to enter into combat with inferior stats and see if you can win based on your superior planning and superior execution. I am quite certain an execution-only game would get boring very quickly (for me), as I would not be able to ‘mix-it-up’, and would then constantly just use the same strategy over and over.

Jemmi.6058:

Hmm, I see what you are getting at. However, I think that building your character up is part of the fun. I also think that planning and preparation your strategy is part of the skill. Skill is a function of stats + preparation/planning + execution. Take away stats and preparation, you only have execution. It sounds like that is what you want, but I would have to disagree that it is the most skill-focused option. I am unsure if it would be more challenging, in fact the most challenging option is to enter into combat with inferior stats and see if you can win based on your superior planning and superior execution. I am quite certain an execution-only game would get boring very quickly (for me), as I would not be able to ‘mix-it-up’, and would then constantly just use the same strategy over and over.

well you can still have the planning part without it being stated. Example: we all have lots of skills, but during a fight we only have a certain amount of them on our skill bar and we’re locked into those choices.
Fair enough though – you like a more stated play, I prefer a less stated play. Therefore it’s good that games are increasing their variety assuring that there would be a game for everyone. Guild Wars 2 is a happy medium in my opinion.

Angry about having levels? lol. What could possibly come next? for people to make believe complain about. What has happened to the gaming community =( Angry that they have to sign in at all?

Levels are only for traits, skills and better armor in this game.

I’d prefer levels to not exist and traits/skills to be awarded through challenges though out the world, challenges so difficult that they extend beyond any sliver of skill needed to solo Lupicus.

Kakeru.2873:

I swear the majority of people playing GW2 actually don’t like the MMORPG genre at all, and are constantly coming up with ways to push GW2 out of the mmorpg genre and turn it into an Action Adventure Online Game.

First, the roles and dissolved and almost removed to the point where, 9 times out of 10 someone is playing a damage dealing role. “soft” classes that can do everything. Next we remove the need for grouping and social interaction to tackle content, next we remove levels and make this a Action World Simulator Online.

@ the guy who mentioned monster hunter, MH isn’t an rpg of any sort and also there kind of are levels (there are HR ranks) but they don’t effect your character in anyway they just allow you to face harder monsters.

In some ways you’re right, except for how you phrase it. What you mean to say is some people don’t like the MMO genre as it stands. That’s presupposing that MMOs as they are are somehow the best MMOs can be. But a lot of us really didn’t like MMOs as they are.

I’ve long been a fan of the MMO concept, without having found an MMO I like. A lot of the changes made in this game as positive, from my point of view, to the MMO genre. Some of them didn’t go far enough, but I think future games will.

MMOs are tragic in a lot of ways, in their limitations. But you can’t compare a game like UO with a game like WoW, even though WoW was more popular…and they’re both MMOs.

In addition to Anet moving the genre forward, to some small degree, it also returned to some of the original MMO values (like making exploring a rewarding thing).

Judge Banks.9018:

I’d prefer levels to not exist and traits/skills to be awarded through challenges though out the world, challenges so difficult that they extend beyond any sliver of skill needed to solo Lupicus.

A thousand times this. No problem getting people out into far off empty maps if there were something there worth going for other than map completion and ‘the view’.

I think the problem here is that many of you don’t actually enjoy MMO gameplay or RPG games. That’s fine by the way, horses for courses. These aren’t hard and fast things anyway, game “genre’s” only appear due to the wild success of a new mechanic/idea (FPS = Wolfenstein/Doom; RTS = Dune 2 etc.) , and are changing all the time.

However, I’d like to re-emphasize that when you remove levels you create a whip for your own back from a design perspective and end up reproducing the same dynamic in another way anyway. You also fundamentally change the game, and lots of people like the feel that levels bring. What you are really talking about is a different type of game – which is, again, fine. Just be honest about that in the marketing so people know what they’re buying into.

Elbegast.6970:

I see my character gaining numbers (levels) but they don’t make me feel more powerful. The problem is that I am downgraded to the level of the area I am currently in.

Being level 20 and almost dying to two level 9 mobs is a terrible feeling. What is the point in leveling if all that work is negated by zone mechanics?

There are two options that would make the experience feel better.

1. Don’t downgrade my level and allow me to one-shot lower level mobs. In this way, I would actually feel more powerful as I leveled and would feel like my work is being rewarded.

or

2. Remove levels and leveling altogether. Don’t allow me to see that meaningless number that taunts me with every pull. I would rather not see any level number on my character at all than to see the green ‘down’ arrow next to an artificially deflated number.

1. at level 5 with level 0 gear, dmg something thats level 2. then at level 80 with your level downgraded to level 5 with level 80 gear, dmg something level 2. tell me you see a difference. sure you deal less dmg but its better then the actual level the content requires you to be.
2. remove levels? then why play gw2? what is the point when you don’t PROGRESS. what do you hope to achieve when playing a game when you don’t gain anything for questing.

marnick.4305:

tolkien.6317:

I agree, and I’m not sure what we’re discussing now… What you’ve done is point out the problem with levels in GW2, not the original function of levels in D&D. Part of the problem you’ve shown is with the high numbers in modern games (level 80 etc.) I mentioned that in my first reply – it’s another reason these high numbers are bad IMO.

Well to make the circle to DnD which basically invented levels… it was used because it’s too much work to change relevant attributes after every levels. Because of that, it was lumped together as “experience”, making the changing of sheets a once-a-day instead of once-a-battle thing. Since videogames aren’t based on pen and paper, the only really valid argument in favor of levels as a gating mechanism disappears.

Some single player RPGs, like Skyrim have levels based on skill, rather than the other way around. I think a Skyrim style advancement system could work well.

Trouble is that there are a lot of gamers that have been practically institutionalised by WoW and are very, very resistant to alternate concepts.

Wanderer.3248:

Some single player RPGs, like Skyrim have levels based on skill, rather than the other way around. I think a Skyrim style advancement system could work well.

Trouble is that there are a lot of gamers that have been practically institutionalised by WoW and are very, very resistant to alternate concepts.

Whatever the level is based upon, it’s still a level. A level is just a number that allows progression and comparison. I used to think in the old days of P&P that we’d eventually get past the approximation that levels were created to provide. But it’s a core system that just works so well and the logical outworking of systems around it has grown to what we have today.

This is what RPGing is – the depiction of skill and power growth as represented by passive numbers as opposed to pure player skill. However you disguise that (level) number, it will still be there – whether that’s through skill advancement, or gear acquisition etc. It’s just a number, so after years of thinking around it both professionally and as a player, I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s better to expose it rather than pretend it’s not there.

The real alternative is skill based games. And they are different games. The internet is not quite fast enough yet to support true skill based multiplayer games without some deference to the inevitable lag. And honestly, that’s not of interest to most RPGers. The whole point is that the progression is passive, not actual. That’s the game, and the charm of it.

If we wanted a challenge of pure skill, we’d be playing sport, or any of the competitive FPS’s .

Re. WoW, it’s quite honestly a horrible benchmark. If anyone refers to it without making reference to other games, I assume they don’t know any better because they haven’t played anything else. It’s just not an indicator of much except gaming naivete in my book. It’s a good start, but for the love of God play something else in the genre and discover the universe outside its cheesy, pop culture infested mediocrity (that’s not directed at anyone inparticular, just a general statement).

Hey, can I shout out for one of the developers who worked on a game I really enjoyed once upon a time and didn’t have levels in a strict sense?

Look up the blog of Brian Green, aka “Psychochild”. The game was an ancient beast I played on a dialup modem (28.8!) called Meridian 59.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Hey, can I shout out for one of the developers who worked on a game I really enjoyed once upon a time and didn’t have levels in a strict sense?

Look up the blog of Brian Green, aka “Psychochild”. The game was an ancient beast I played on a dialup modem (28.8!) called Meridian 59.

Meridian 59 is quite possibly the first true graphical (2.5D) MMO. I played it briefly, and had a friend who played it a lot. Ground breaking game for its time!

Kakeru.2873:

I swear the majority of people playing GW2 actually don’t like the MMORPG genre at all, and are constantly coming up with ways to push GW2 out of the mmorpg genre and turn it into an Action Adventure Online Game.

That is because a Massive Online world is a beautiful thing which most people love, but several MMO tropes are so horribly broken that MMORPGs are rightfully considered the worst games in existence.

First, the roles and dissolved and almost removed to the point where, 9 times out of 10 someone is playing a damage dealing role. “soft” classes that can do everything. Next we remove the need for grouping and social interaction to tackle content, next we remove levels and make this a Action World Simulator Online.

People are actually looking for an Action World Simulator online and get a second job instead. Instead of being Aragorn, they become a warcraft 3 peasant … work work.
Can you give me a single fantasy book where one character is a main healer without any combat functionality? The trinity is a counter-intuitive mechanic that’s broken by design. Could you imagine Gandalf standing still while casting his spells? No he’s a combat mage, no one expects casters to stand still and not use weapons.

The idea behind MMOs is beautiful, it’s what lures people in. World of Warcraft is a wonderful game if you ignore all the bad things which, unfortunately, forms about 90% of the game.
People want to lose themselves in a fantasy world, wander around and fight epic beasts. People get raids instead, being forced into elitist attitudes. Really that’s not why people originally started playing MMO games. I know I didn’t expect that at all.

Guild Wars 2 is trying to eliminate a whole lot of bad tropes from the game. I like that, it could go further but it’s a nice first step. Baby step even.

tolkien.6317:

I think the problem here is that many of you don’t actually enjoy MMO gameplay or RPG games.

I like them fine. MMORPGs don’t need levels, Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, EVE, and Darkfall have all abandoned them. Even some games with levels would still be anathema to this model. Would anyone have enjoyed Planescape: Torment had it made you grind 1000 modrons for each piece of story you wanted to unfold?

I like it just fine this way.

The levels act as “gate-keeping” to provide solo area/story flow and progression. Nothing more and nothing less.

I like the down-levelling – it got really tiresome in WoW to not be able to progress through areas without out-levelling them. It wasn’t fun. Maybe it is for other people – but that’s why there are different games.

Ultima Online had levels, your skills were based upon the LEVEL of the skill in which you had to use said skill. If you decided to switch things up you were suddenly a lvl 1 nub with that new skill and had to go back to easy things to fight or get your skull crushed.

Eve doesn’t have levels? It has worse levels than every game in existance with time based skill aquasition needed to fly certain ships or properly use certain equipment. To effciently use your ship to it’s fullest you had better of had your pilot learnign a select set of skills while you weren’t logged into the game of a series of weeks/months depending on how good you are at timing your log in/set skill/log out as you learn skills far far slowly if you are logged into the game. Counter intuitive much?

SWG also had levels, you grinded out skills on set paths, like UO you had to get back to simple mobs if you wanted to totally reinvent yourself. Or worse yet, the original holovid grind to become a Jedi made leveling seem like a much much MUCH beter alternative.

The leveling was always there, just disguised…and disguised poorly if anyone even looked at it for a moment logically.

Leetimus.5786:

Not really, because

1. It makes lower level content playable all the time. Which made sense to me the other day when my friend bought the game, and i could do events with him, without taking away his XP, and still gaining a fairly reasonable amount of it for myself because of the downscaling.

2. You do get more powerful, because as you level up, it allows you to wear better gear with higher stats and more stats at that. So when youre level 60 and get scaled to level 10, youl be much more powerful than a level 20 scaled down to level 10. Your armor and all your stats are your power when you are downscaled. As far as i know, the only thing they downscale is how much health you have, and the raw damage is scaled, so you still get extra damage from your stats while being downscaled.

It only downscales stats you get from levels, all our gear stats still apply

Been there, done that, with a game where you didn’t downlevel and it sucked a lot of the fun out of it. You tend to have two things that happen

1) higher level players will decide to kill ALL the things, which gets pretty frustrating when you’re trying to do something.

2) lazy players will get the higher ones to do everything for them. Need help taking on this thing? Boom. Done.

I much prefer having at least some challenge in places I feel like going to on a particular day.

Ye, lvls bring something wrong, which makes people that, they want gain it faster, and faster… Unfortunately, bypassing the other modes and stuff.

LvL often meant that, when u gained high – then you’re good, strong and attain a certain stage in the game and you can start to do the other things.

In GW2 it is done differently, and imo better, and yeah, a good case it could be done even without these levels, but hey – finally i think its good to have it People just need to get used to lvls system created by ArenaNet, and forget about these promoted for years in other MMOs.

Leveling and stat progression is a very old and outdated system. Developers invest so much money in these MMO projects that they’re afraid to take risks by designing new systems.

We get the same old systems because developers are afraid or too incompetent to think of something new.

Levels in GW2 only act as a gating/progression system. At first you get to learn your profession one skill at a time, then you further enhance this bit by bit through traits. That’s the only actual vertical progression there is. Which doesn’t make you super strong because of downscaling.

I personally wouldn’t mind if down scaling was put even further, to a level where ever you are you need to think about your skills. I like the fact that I cant just rush through the low level areas all the time. And when I die at a low level mob’s hands I feel like, I could’ve done that better.

I feel GW2 is the best compromise between both a levelling system and a no-levelling system.

I still hear player say “it takes so long to get to level 80”. But in fact, it doesn’t take any longer or shorter. But because the content is the same, it is more boring to level up other characters.

In that sense I rather would have the developers focus their efforts on making content that gives something new to play every time, rather than messing around with the foundation of the levelling system.

If they can somehow make it so that Living story changes the world forever then that would be awesome. Like suddenly in queensdale there’s a trainingscamp because the month before the centaurs went all out and this trainingscamp still is there. and will stay there until something new comes along. Stuff like that.