Always remember to do what you love, without it you have nothing.
Loss of Roles.
I’ve never understood peoples dislike of the trinity system, it works and it is fun being able to say “yes I fulfill this role and I do it well”
The only issue with the system is when people get lazy with it and make it so your limited to just 1 of the roles and if you dont like it tough, or when you make the roles ridiculous (like making tanking about pressing 1 button to instant get agro and keep it no matter what like some games do)
Roles are a good thing you just need to make it flexible between roles available (no one wants to find out there’s already a tank and they are then useless as a second one) and make them enjoyable to play and there’s no problem.
I find that there are roles that can be fulfilled, particularly in dungeons, they just aren’t that obvious. For example, in a boss fight where a multitude of weaker opponents spawn, as is often the case, someone with good AoE abilities and survival can take on the role of pest control, keeping the rest of the party on the boss. Or, someone with blinds and knockbacks can take on a role of making sure downed allies get back up before they are defeated. And of course, there’s always support. Whether it is healing or giving boons or something more special, support is always worth it.
These roles are just more fluid than those of traditional MMOs, and you might need to take them unexpectedly. And that’s where I find it excellent.
Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.
I’ve never understood peoples dislike of the trinity system, it works and it is fun being able to say “yes I fulfill this role and I do it well”
If you want to do something in Guild Wars, lets say a dungeon, you just need the players to turn up and play. You don’t need to wait around for a tank, or a support, or a healer. Players do not have to change classes because other people need them to play a class other than the one they want to play. It doesn’t matter if 50% of the players on a server all want to play a thief, they all can and they’re not competing over a limited number of spaces in each group for a medium armor role.
I’ve never understood peoples dislike of the trinity system, it works and it is fun being able to say “yes I fulfill this role and I do it well”
If you want to do something in Guild Wars, lets say a dungeon, you just need the players to turn up and play. You don’t need to wait around for a tank, or a support, or a healer. Players do not have to change classes because other people need them to play a class other than the one they want to play. It doesn’t matter if 50% of the players on a server all want to play a thief, they all can and they’re not competing over a limited number of spaces in each group for a medium armor role.
Question is why would you have to wait around for a tank/healer/support etc, you don’t need to FORCE the roles on people, you just have to make the roles usable in a way that makes it feel like your actually making a proper difference in the role you chose.
If you run a team with all thieves you all get to burn down things fast but suffer from fragility, if someone chooses to play a tank and joins they get to hold and control mobs while taking a beating allowing others to burn easier, healers come in and feel like they are actually keeping people alive.
Sure some people MAY demand a trinity team if they feel they need it, just like somes might not (opting for a harder but faster burn team) but the options would be there, at the moment there is some choice but it all feels weak and not really distinct, everyone basically comes out being very similar in combat.
Tuomir hit the nail ont he head, there are roles. You just fail to see them because they aren’t blatently forced upon you the way trinity does it.
Support – you can be a healer, a buffer, a cleanser, dedicated rezzer, or “fill in” for the person currently taking hits so they can heal up a bit. Mace/focus and staff guards make GREAT supports being able to heal/cleanse/buff with ease. Warriors are equally great supports with raw buffs/heals (shout healing and banner regen builds being huge helps). Necromancers specced into wells can make a dungeoun run easy as cake due to life leach and blindness area effects and a targettable healing area. Elementalists specializing in water make healing people look easy (use the staff, love the staff…yes it sucks in spvp but it shines in group play when you aren’t being targetted with intelligence), and thieves can be huge supports with venom sharing and using shelter to protect the group. Mesmers and engineers are practically hand built as support classes, even if their buffing abilities are random (elixers/chaos respectively).
Tank – yes tank exists, play a warrior, equip main hand mace and offhand sword or offhand shield (shield preferable but sword CAN do the job). This gives you no less than 2 block/parry skills and 2 (3 with the shield) interupts that work on removing defiance. Guardian can do the job with mace/shield and simply being symbol heal/regen heal/shout heal specced and out healing/blocking the boss. Now, lacking this style of play, you can build for raw survivability and out kite/dodge the boss using vigor boosts on a multitude of classes (I honestly find ranger best at this style, but most ranger players don’t even consider trying to play this way as they don’t choose the classe to be a kite tanker).
Control – every class does this well if you spec for it. control can mean anythign from slowing and manipulating the area to your team’s interests or true area denial for pvp. Slowing, imobalizing, outright prevention/blast back of enemies to buy your group time. You can build for this and not be crippled during a boss fight (actually a group with a dedicated controller tends to bully the bosses easier due to all the ways a controller has to get rid of defiance).
DPS – looking at all you glass cannon fools. DPS is not really a huge need in this game, all other roles carry damage with them in some form, dedicated damage dealers are…from my own personal experience…risky at best as they tend to roll full bezerker glass cannon builds that crumple in one or two hits. It is however a viable way to build and there are many out there that will run dungeoun after dungeoun and never get downed. They post the highest damage usually purely in bursts.
Survivor – I put this in it’s own role even though you can build for it while doing another job. Plainly put this is the build that is ready for nearly every contingency, will handle everything thrown at it. Not the build for serious damage or serious tanking or serious buffing…the survivor will never drop, and repeatedly pick up others while taking whatever is thrown at it. In pvp we call these “bunker” builds and they have a place in pve ont he harder fights as these builds will be the ones rezzing everyone else.
Roles exist, they just up to YOU to define what you wish to be known for. No, you don’t have the immediate recognition as the tank untill you stand your ground infront of the boss and just tank those hits while everyone pounds the boss around you. After the fight you get your recognition…you don’t roll into a group and go “I’m the tank” like you do in other MMO’s. Want to be a healer? Show it in the combat, however you don’t get to just sit there and cast heal after heal…you have to time them, know when they can handle the hit or when you have to be their heal skill while also doing damage.
The combat is more fluid and more active, less passive. The roles are ther, you have to actively make the role your own, not expect it handed to you.
Honestly, I see what you are pointing out. Sure you can stack vitality on a Warrior or Guardian, tell yourself you’re then tank and hope that in some form you remain to keep aggro, but the Guild Wars 2 mechanics do not ( in my eyes and some others I’ve had this conversation with) allow for you to do simple task of truthfully fulling your role. For example look at AC when the Mesmers in love battle came around you’d either spam boulder mashing to keep them apart or hope for the best, there were no Tanks that use abilities to keep aggro such as taunts, you’d have your less dps member throw a boulder until you can down one of the lovers which usually took at least 5 minutes. DPS as a role is an any game, a class that does damage is obviously common and needed. There is not much anyone can do to stop that. Finally the Support role, which to be honest is what i’m a tad sore about, I ran a monk through the first to campaigns of Guild Wars and finsished Night Fall and EoTN with a Paragon. I have always loved that feeling you get when you know that you are supporting the team, its a feeling that everyone gets when they play MMO’s the feeling that you can be what you want and you want to be good at that, in my opinion there are no support classes in Guild Wars 2 that are even measurable, the closest I can come is a guardian buffing and running to pick up downed allies. My bottom line point is, people by nature want to be good at things they enjoy which in this case would be Tank- keeping aggro and staying alive. DPS- Dealing a ton of damage while hoping the Tank keeps aggro. Healer/Support- Keeping everyone buffed and Healed. The feeling of actually contributing to a team run in this game just isn’t fully there, regardless if people say you can find roles through all of this, sure you can but they are and never will be as enjoyable of when you know you are who you want to be and doing that to the best of your ability if you failed at your role in the end you get to try the next run and progress to become better on a PvE aspect of Guild Wars 2 the progression or ‘Learning curve’ is low to none.
A cardboard cu kitten till a cup but it will never be comparable to a glass one I suppose.
I appreciate all the feed back that all of you have taken the time to write and read.
Ps. I level capped my character probably just like everyone else here, From all the dungeons I have ran, I have never gotten that feeling of being anything more then damage and self heals. If you look at it the game ability wise is quite selfish not many ablilities that can be contributed to fellow group members.
Always remember to do what you love, without it you have nothing.
Actually, in the lover’s fight if everyone targets one, and a single person fights the other one. that individual can tank them easily. It is also far more than just dumping vit/tough on a war or guard and being tank. You have to have the right weapons (mace main hand is virtually a requirement here with warrior offhands being sword or shield and guardian offhands being focus or shield) and time the blocking/parry skills appropriately. Melee dodging and knowing when to take hits adds tot he skill requirements, not many things I haven’t tanked on my guardian in this manner even though warriors are far superior at stripping defiant and keeping a constant stream of self heals going if needed.
Most of you sound like you aren’t truly paying attention to what is going on. You aren’t forced into a role (yes trinity games force roles, people rarely want to be tanks or healers…just ask the DPS people how long they wait for groups) you have to find that role and make it yours. Build to be flexible and shift your focus at any given time for what the group needs not for what you only wish to do (which is one reason I hate glass cannon builds as they are only good for that one thing…damage, and hybrid builds only lack a small percentage of the damage).
No support builds? The smoothest dungeoun runs (the runs in which no one drops) tend to have 4 support builds in them with a tank or survivalist dps. Forcing healers to actually deal damage and worry about actively dodging…as opposed to the typical mmo where your healer hits like a wet noodle and rarely if ever attacks. Likewise your tank hardly does real damage either and simply has a bunch of blocking and damage absorbtion skills. Your DPS is lacking in both healing and survival skills.
Really, 3 or 4 man a dungeoun and you really feel that you are missing people to help, for more than just damage too. There is a lack of buffs going out, which reduces damage output and protection/healing/preventative measures. You can still do the dungeoun but the feelign that something is lacking is going to be obvious.
I’ve never understood peoples dislike of the trinity system, it works and it is fun being able to say “yes I fulfill this role and I do it well”
As a FFXI vet, I can tell you why I don’t like the “roles”. Certainly roles will always be more valuable than others (tanks, healers, refreshers (FFXI exclusive?)). These guys never have trouble finding a group with whom they can play. DPSers, of whom there are generally many more than the “in-demand” roles, often wind up sitting around hoping to find someone with whom they can play. This problem is often compounded when players of certain roles take on an air of snobbery. They think they can dictate the terms to which everyone else in a party much adhere.
And for the record, I played a paladin and never had trouble finding a group. But I saw more than a few of that game’s many DPSers spamming chat looking…hoping to find someone who would let them play.
I’ve never understood peoples dislike of the trinity system, it works and it is fun being able to say “yes I fulfill this role and I do it well”
As a FFXI vet, I can tell you why I don’t like the “roles”. Certainly roles will always be more valuable than others (tanks, healers, refreshers (FFXI exclusive?)). These guys never have trouble finding a group with whom they can play. DPSers, of whom there are generally many more than the “in-demand” roles, often wind up sitting around hoping to find someone with whom they can play. This problem is often compounded when players of certain roles take on an air of snobbery. They think they can dictate the terms to which everyone else in a party much adhere.
And for the record, I played a paladin and never had trouble finding a group. But I saw more than a few of that game’s many DPSers spamming chat looking…hoping to find someone who would let them play.
That usually comes down to the game demanding those roles rather than the fact the roles exist which is where the game designers always fall down, they think you either need to make roles mandatory or not have them distinct at all.
Currently GW2 has no distinct roles, you can roll into specific role types but they never feel truly distinct or as rewarding for the effort, but at the same time roles aren’t demanded, you CAN do a dungeon with nothing but glass cannons.
But there is the thing, whats stopping them making some more distinct roles that don’t end up just merging with the general do greyness of current, you’d still be able to do content without needing specific roles but those that wish to take up a specific role can do so while feeling more than just a survivability/support slanted shade of the average build.
Distinct roles with role dependant content can be bad, distinct roles without a role dependent content is more choice, more enjoyable and personalized gameplay.
I always found roles to be the worst thing about team play in mmos, and GW2 fixed this really well. Like people already pointed out, roles were forced on people that didn’t enjoy playing them, and roles themselves were move valuable than the player, also it’s true that all of the roles tanks/healer etc already exist in the game and people may play them if they enjoy them, but being kicked or not included just because you aren’t specced the “right” way isn’t good, and having one set way of playing the game instead of more options is boring.
Dasorine, grab 4 friends, and get everyone to select a role (1 tank, 2 pure dps, 1 hybrid something…support/dps is my suggestion, and 1 heal/support) and run a few dungeouns…it works rather well actually.
As for aggro…it seems to be based partly on proffession (I always have easier times ripping aggro off others as a soldier class usign any weapon) and partly on if you have messed with the boss any. Strip deffiant stacks and you get nudged up the aggro ladder for the boss. Dodging attacks (actually getting the evade to pop up) causes aggro, as does healing yourself or others. A good tank build involves passive healing and skills that block the boss attacks to net some extra aggro. If someone pulls aggro all they have to o is dodge roll away and stop attacking for a few seconds (same as in any MMO). As for healer…well…you are limited to engi/guard/ele really…though necromancers can do good at it too.
The distance to the enemy also affects the aggro, the closer you are, the easier it is to grab.
On a related note, I had some 30 gravelings on me last night during a AC run (path 3), in a part where you needed to protect a pair of essence collectors until they got their fill. I basically aggroed every graveling I saw and pulled them off to the center of the room, so that the rest of the party could focus on destroying the burrows that spawned them and protecting the essence collectors. What is that if not tanking?
Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.