Guild Wars 2

Currently, Magic Find is a very “selfish” mechanic in parties. If a player is in full magic find gear, he will get better drops, but he will also be hurting the rest of his party (by doing less damage, healing less, taking more damage and thus requiring more frequent assistance from the others, etc.).

A simple way to fix this is to average the Magic Find bonus across the entire party. That way, if a player chooses to give up on damage, survivability or healing in exchange for improved loot, other players will still need to work a bit harder but they will also get some kind of benefit.

In order to address the kittening about people sabotaging their teams by going into dungeons with MF gear. I would like to throw out some ‘bathtub’ ideas I had.

OK, let me first and foremost say that this idea might be unfeasible because it would require modifications to be done to every piece of armor in the game and the addition of a new type of slot — so lets first discuss how armor might be changed.

Armor

- All existing armor which uses MF would instead have that be replaced by a different and possibly new stat (e.g.: movement speed, chance to haste, condition time reduction, boon duration, stamina recovery, chance to auto-rally to 1hp (guts), etc)

- Many armors (for example masterpieces and higher) would gain a new type of slot similar to an infusion slot. However the slot would effective act as a ‘charm’ slot. Charm slots would contain effects which benefit the player but do not affect his survivability by denying him useful stats.

- Optionally the slots themselves could be tiered like the armor, or a certain charm could only be put into the same quality-class like its armor type.

Charms

- Each charm would provide a single non-combat benefit such as:

• General MF (for example +3%)
• Specialized Material/Armor/Weapon MF (higher than general, like perhaps +5%)
• Bonuses to Exp, Karma, or Gold from Monsters/Events

Charm Acquisition

Charms would essentially be random drops and be soulbound to the character (for example a ‘lucky horseshoe’ would be lucky to one person but not to another).

Charms would be rarely dropped, for example a player might be as likely to recieve a charm as they would an exotic.

Optionally an equalization factor could be put into place to determine frequency of drops. Those with fewer charms or low quality charms would have a slightly higher chance to receive them.

A feature to temporarily boost the quality of charms could be purchasable from the gem store. Alternatively high-end charms could also be purchased from the store, however they might have a certain amount of charges before they expire.

I wish they just put a feature like in D3 giving you 1% passive MF for every level over 80.

I like OP’s idea, although I don’t think it’s necessary to remove current MF gear, just to add MF slot upgrades to all non-MF exotics in the game. Imho all upgrades should be based on the stuff you try to farm:
- +5% for gear => base charm + 3 pieces of exotic gear
- +5% gold => base charm + 3×5 icy lodestones (1g/piece)
- +5% karma => base charm + 3×5 obsidian (2100 karma/piece)
- extra xp => base charm + crystals (buyable for xp)

I support such an update. It’s actually the horizontal progression people would want.

Magic Find is one of those game features I never liked. I mean it ruins the experience, someone that does “nothing” because he is using sub-par MF gear gets more loot that someone that does all the work… This isn’t fair at all
I’d say they should add the option of “increasing” your MF by actually doing more on a mob, just like the medals in events increase your rewards the better you are during an event. Something similar could work everywhere, but that would ruin support builds. It’s tricky but something must be done to remove this silly stat called MF from Dungeons at least.
Maybe make it worthless in Dungeons?

There is a lot of grief about MF, however I for one really enjoy it. Getting full exotic gear is easy (crafting/karma etc.) and so it didn’t take me long at all to complete a set when I turned 80. So when I had my full set of damage gear I wanted a new goal – Magic Find gear. Now I have two sets, and the way I see it is that my MF gear is for exploring – doing dailies, easy dungeons (let’s be fair, MF only replaces the third, weakest stat) and basically, are now my clothes I use to explore in.

When things get tougher (harder dungeons, WvW fights) I can put on my other gear and not let my side down.

I’d rather see a wardrobe system where sets can be changed easier rather than taking up all my bag slots. The comment above mentions “doing more on a mob” to recieve better loot – well I feel I have done more already in crafting my own MF gear.

“– well I feel I have done more already in crafting my own MF gear.”

To me that’s like saying I’ve crafted my legendary so I shouldn’t have to do anything in team fight. I’ve done my part…

Uhm, then you should average Vitality and Toughness across the party too, if someone selfishly chooses to opt for those, as they reduce the players repair costs as (s)he doesn’t die quite that often.

Fred Fargone.3127:

Uhm, then you should average Vitality and Toughness across the party too, if someone selfishly chooses to opt for those, as they reduce the players repair costs as (s)he doesn’t die quite that often.

Is that meant as a joke, or did you really miss the point completely?

Toughness and Vitality are combat stats (same as every other stat – with the exception of Magic Find). The balance of stats depends on each player’s build and play style. A player who chooses to have more Toughness and / or Vitality will die less and take less damage, thus requiring less assistance from other players, having more “uptime”, being better at resurrecting players who are inside AoE, being able to block projectiles that would otherwise hit his teammates, etc.. There’s absolutely nothing selfish about support / toughness builds, on the contrary.

If you think that having players with good defensive stats in your party doesn’t help the party, you probably haven’t played much GW2.

Magic Find is the only stat that does not contribute at all to the success of the party (on the contrary, it makes the party less efficient, for the benefit of a single player)

I agree that MF should either be shared for the whole team or removed completely from Dungeons considering there is not an inspect feature. It should average it for everyone, the one wearing it included, otherwise it would still be the same thing.

I have no idea why they implemented such thing for Dungeons, it’s a stat that only benefits the one who uses it, but at the same time it makes your other party members work harder for you.

No joke, obviously. And it was YOU who missed HIS point. Better read it again.

Vitality DOES reduce the rest of the party because the high-hp guy isn’t doing as much damage. So, it takes longer to kill the creature, thus causing more of the other members of the party to spend more time downed or defeated.

(It also causes other members of the party to spend more money, on armor repairs.)

If you’re going to average one, you must average them all.

Daddicus.6128:

Vitality DOES reduce the rest of the party because the high-hp guy isn’t doing as much damage.

Dead people do 0 DPS. If you think vitality, toughness or healing power are useless, I hope I never get grouped with you in a dungeon…

Did I say they were useless? Don’t put words into my mouth; it makes you look like a fool or a child. Not to mention doing nothing for your argument.

Daddicus.6128:

Did I say they were useless?

No, you are absolutely correct. I apologize for misrepresenting what you said. In fact you said they were worse than useless:

Daddicus.6128:

Vitality DOES reduce the rest of the party […] causing more of the other members of the party to spend more time downed or defeated. (It also causes other members of the party to spend more money, on armor repairs.)

In other words, you just said that having players with high vitality in your party (ex., a “tanky” guardian, warrior, necro, etc.) makes the whole party worse, causes the other players to die more and makes them spend more money on repairs.

Which suggests you haven’t exactly done many dungeons in GW2.

Why not just ask people to not use MF before entering? If they refuse, kick them. It isn’t hard to ask. I know plenty of people that don’t care if a party member is using MF or not. Don’t like MF? Tell/ask to change sets. For the people that don’t care, then it doesn’t matter if the contribution is greater or not since they have allowed MF to be used.

If someone asked me to not use it, I’d switch to my alternate set. Generally, I ask if they care, but maybe its just me.

IamALie.8190:

Why not just ask people to not use MF before entering?

Because there is no way to check and no incentive for them to be honest about it. If they are in full MF gear and everyone else is in full combat gear, they benefit the most.

That’s why I said the current implementation of MF in parties is selfish.

One solution would be to allow gear / stat inspection, of course. Personally I think that averaging MF across the entire party is more compatible with Arena Net’s philosophy.

Ask them to link their armor, if not then don’t give the benefit of the doubt and kick? Why would anyone have a reason to hide their armor other than lying?

IamALie.8190:

Ask them to link their armor

Because they couldn’t possibly link their combat set (from their bags) while wearing a Magic Find set, right…? Or they couldn’t possibly swap after entering the dungeon, right…?

Come on, think a bit before posting.

If Magic Find is to work inside dungeons, the only way to prevent it from being a “selfish” stat (i.e., one that benefits only one party member at the cost of the party’s combat performance) is to average it across the entire party.

The alternative would be to add an inspect feature (which I think Arena Net won’t do) and make it impossible for players to change their armour inside dungeons (which I also doubt Arena Net would ever do – and which I think would be a step backwards in terms of gameplay).

The suggestion above seems like the simplest way to make sure that the benefits of MF are shared across the entire party (not just its disadvantages), which is the overall design philosophy that Arena Net used in GW2.

Currently, if one player equips a MF set in a dungeon, he gets both the advantages and disadvantages, but everyone else gets only the latter.

If you look at the name of the armor linked and compared it to what they’re currently wearing, you should be able to tell the difference unless they have the exact same skins on their armor. Even if they change mid dungeon, you can still kick them. However, do you really believe people will go that far just to deceive the group that that they’re not using MF? If you really suspect they are using it and lying about their armor, just don’t keep them in the party.

In all honesty, I wouldn’t mind it being averaged out. I definitely prefer this over an inspect feature that will no doubt make it harder to find groups for many people. This is a much better suggestion than ‘Remove MF’ I just don’t think that his is a huge deal as you seem to be making it..

This is a great idea. Even moreso if MF transfers over to other members in a dilute sense. Think for example if you have the MF wearer getting 65% of his MF when grouped and each teammate getting +35% of his MF. Well, the dude who is sporting MF gear might think twice about doing it, and party members might be a little less reluctant to party with him even if he did. Furthermore if you have 2 guys in the party sporting MF gear, you are effectively giving 100% MF to the guys sporting the gear while the other party members get 65% MF (assuming the MF gear guys MF is the same). Assuming that all party members were in full MF gear with the same amount of total MF, they would effectively get 205% of their average base MF, but would be essentially be playing on hard mode due to the stats they would have to give up to get that much combined MF.

Account.9832:

Daddicus.6128:

Vitality DOES reduce the rest of the party because the high-hp guy isn’t doing as much damage.

Dead people do 0 DPS. If you think vitality, toughness or healing power are useless, I hope I never get grouped with you in a dungeon…

QFT.

IamALie.8190:

If you look at the name of the armor linked and compared it to what they’re currently wearing, you should be able to tell the difference unless they have the exact same skins on their armor.

So now whenever I start a party I should ask 4 people to link me every piece of their armour, preview every single one of them, compare it to the armour they’re wearing, and then monitor them through the entire dungeon to make sure they don’t change any of it?

Seriously…?

Besides, guess what, a lot of people (me included) use exactly the same skins for their MF and combat sets. Actually not exactly, because my combat armour is purple and my magic find armour is green, but that’s just so I can distinguish them easily; the links look exactly the same when previewed.

IamALie.8190:

do you really believe people will go that far just to deceive the group that that they’re not using MF?

Why wouldn’t they? With the current system, a player benefits the most by being in full MF gear in a party where everyone else is in full combat gear. So what kind of incentive do they have to not lie about it, especially knowing that being honest would probably get them kicked, or not invited in the first place?

IamALie.8190:

I just don’t think that his is a huge deal as you seem to be making it..

Where did I say it was “a huge deal” ?

Account.9832:

IamALie.8190:

If you look at the name of the armor linked and compared it to what they’re currently wearing, you should be able to tell the difference unless they have the exact same skins on their armor.

So now whenever I start a party I should ask 4 people to link me every piece of their armour, preview every single one of them, compare it to the armour they’re wearing, and then monitor them through the entire dungeon to make sure they don’t change any of it?

Seriously…?

Besides, guess what, a lot of people (me included) use exactly the same skins for their MF and combat sets. Actually not exactly, because my combat armour is purple and my magic find armour is green, but that’s just so I can distinguish them easily; the links look exactly the same when previewed.

IamALie.8190:

I just don’t think that his is a huge deal as you seem to be making it..

Where did I say it was a huge deal?

No, you don’t have to do any of this. I’m just saying that if you’re going to be so anal about MF, then you may as well go the extra mile.

And is that so? I don’t know, I purposely made my MF set have a different skin just so I could distinguish between them.

Also, I did not say you said it was a huge deal. Just that you seem to making a huge deal of it.

Keep in mind I’m actually in favor of your suggestion, you just sounded a bit too irritated about this that I wanted to give a few solutions to help you out in the meantime. I honestly do think this is a good idea, but it has never bothered me one bit if someone had MF or not.

IamALie.8190:

if you’re going to be so anal about MF, then you may as well go the extra mile.

I’m not “anal” about MF at all. I’ve never asked people if they were wearing MF gear or told them not to. My suggestion is about game design (and specifically about a stat that goes against the overall design philosophy of GW2), not about controlling what other players do or don’t do.

I wasn’t the one suggesting inspecting other players or putting pre-conditions on letting them join the party. I think the implementation of MF is a bad one from a game design point of view, and should be fixed by improving game design.

Ah, then my bad. I was under the impression that you disliked it when people use it in your dungeon parties. Thought you were one of those people that had many requirements to a dungeon party since I’ve seen SO MANY in game. I only made those suggestions under this premise, of course I don’t do them either. I don’t mind MF at all.

And what? Account doesn’t seem like he’s a troll.. It’s just a discussion

IamALie.8190:

Ah, then my bad. I was under the impression that you disliked it when people use it in your dungeon parties.

No, I just expect the game to give all party members some benefit to offset the party-wide disadvantages of reduced combat stats.

Thought you were one of those people that had many requirements to a dungeon party since I’ve seen SO MANY in game.

I know… my block lists grows every time I see one.

Fair enough I think. This is one of the best (if not the best) suggestion I’ve seen regarding MF and dungeons. ^^ Rest of them just complain like I thought you were. :P Well I don’t want to take away from this suggestion, best of luck and hope this goes through.

Account.9832:

…Besides, guess what, a lot of people (me included) use exactly the same skins for their MF and combat sets. Actually not exactly, because my combat armour is purple and my magic find armour is green, but that’s just so I can distinguish them easily; the links look exactly the same when previewed.

This is really funny since that requires you to change your dyes when you change your armor.

Example:
If you have a combat set of Winged armor and a MF set of Winged armor, the moment you change them out, the dye pattern is EXACTLY the same and you have to go into dye mode to change the dye pattern.

Having the same skin for a combat set and a MF set makes it easier to “hot-swap” your armor in a dungeon without getting caught.

Now if your armor changed from Winged to Exalted (or vice versa) then you’d get busted and kicked by the elitists that hate MF.

Account.9832:

Currently, Magic Find is a very “selfish” mechanic in parties. If a player is in full magic find gear, he will get better drops, but he will also be hurting the rest of his party (by doing less damage, healing less, taking more damage and thus requiring more frequent assistance from the others, etc.).

A simple way to fix this is to average the Magic Find bonus across the entire party. That way, if a player chooses to give up on damage, survivability or healing in exchange for improved loot, other players will still need to work a bit harder but they will also get some kind of benefit.

Runes that assist MF also include other benefits to other stats like power, precision, condition damage. I don’t see how they are sacrificing any significant advantage by having increased MF instead of some other stat.

Do you have hard data comparisons to support your claims?

Ravion Hawk.4736:

that requires you to change your dyes when you change your armor.

Actually, the pieces seem to remember their dyes just fine. Could be because the item names are different despite the skins being identical (ex., Aidan’s Gloves vs. Gloves of the Mad King, etc.). I don’t have items with exactly the same name to test, but I would expect them to remember their dyes too. The only situation where the dyes from previous armor should apply to new armour is when you equip it for the first time (or when you preview it, of course).

Ravion Hawk.4736:

Having the same skin for a combat set and a MF set makes it easier to “hot-swap” your armor in a dungeon without getting caught.

As long as you use the same dyes on both they would be indistinguishable anyway. And would anyone really notice if one player stayed behind for a few seconds after killing the first boss and then joined the rest of the party wearing a slightly different armour? I doubt it.

Anyway, the issue isn’t the sneaky ways in which people could wear MF sets while pretending not to. The issue is that the game should make it so that a player wearing a MF set isn’t just benefiting himself at the expense of party efficiency; his MF set should also benefit the rest of the party, as a way to offset the disadvantages of the reduction in combat stats (which already affects everyone in the party, not just him).

Ridgeblader.7135:

Runes that assist MF also include other benefits to other stats like power, precision, condition damage. I don’t see how they are sacrificing any significant advantage by having increased MF instead of some other stat.

It’s not just runes. It’s the actual armour stats too. When you get armour or weapons with MF, the MF is there instead of another stat. But with runes and sigils, the effect can be even bigger. Compare (for example), the Runes of the Scholar set and the Runes of the Noble set, both of which share one combat stat (power).

Scholar:

(1): +25 Power
(2): +3% Critical Damage
(3): +50 Power
(4): +5% Critical Damage
(5): +90 Power
(6): +10% damage while health is above 90%.

Noble:

(1): +10% Magic Find
(2): +15 Power
(3): +15% Magic Find
(4): +35 Power
(5): +25% Magic Find
(6): +5% Chance to summon a Drakehound when hit.

Now, ignore the Magic Find (which has no influence on combat) and add up the other stats:

Scholar:

25 + 50 + 90 = 165 power (typically an 8 – 11% increase for a level 80 character)
3% + 5% = 8% increase to critical damage
10% increase to all damage while health is above 90%.

Noble:

15 + 35 = 50 power
5% Chance to summon a Drakehound when hit.

In other words, the Magic Find set reduces your power by 115, reduces your critical damage by 8%, and reduces your overall damage (both crit and non-crit) by up to 10% in addition to the previous two reductions. With the Noble set you gain a chance to summon an uncontrollable pet (which might do some unknown amount of damage to one of your targets – or might pull enemies you’re trying to avoid, if you’re unlucky), but does nothing to improve your weapon or utility skills, or to increase your AoE damage. Oh, and to get the pet you need to get hit, on average, 20 times (5% chance per hit). I tend to avoid getting hit, so that doesn’t really sound like a useful mechanic.

Even if you replace the last rune with a rune giving 25 power, you’re still losing 90 power (plus 8% crit damage and 10% damage buff) compared to the non-MF set.

You still “don’t see how one is sacrificing any significant advantage by having increased MF instead of some other stat”…?

The key is in the word “instead”.

Ridgeblader.7135:

Do you have hard data comparisons to support your claims?

What claims? That the MF is there instead of a combat stat? I would assume that much is obvious to anyone who can read the item properties, no?

FaRectification.5678:

MF should be for the individual and should not affect the entire party.

And that’s because it should be either shared for the whole party or removed from dungeons completely. It’s an stat that only makes the wearer benefit from it and the whole party suffer from it.

If they keep it as individual stat, they should add the inspect feature at the very least so people actually has a choice.

Sleepy.2647:

FaRectification.5678:

MF should be for the individual and should not affect the entire party.

And that’s because it should be either shared for the whole party or removed from dungeons completely. It’s an stat that only makes the wearer benefit from it and the whole party suffer from it.

If they keep it as individual stat, they should add the inspect feature at the very least so people actually has a choice.

Now, I’d like to know, how many times have you been on a dungeon run that failed solely because someone opted for MF instead of, lets say, power?

Ugh, if you think about it, every stat for armor is only benefitting the wearer. Why should one stat be artificially made to benefit the entire party?

Vitality – YOU survive longer, but deal less damage, so mobs die slower and the rest of your party, with less survivability, dies more.

Power – YOU deal more damage, have higher chance for loot according to damage tables. Rest of the party has to keep rezzing you, since you’re a glass cannon that just facerolls bosses and dies.

Precision – YOU deal more damage, have higher chance for loot according to damage tables. Rest of the party has to keep rezzing you, since you’re a glass cannon that just facerolls bosses and dies.

Toughness – YOU survive longer, some mobs pick targets according to lowest toughness, so, you make the mobs attack your party members, making them to suffer.

MF – YOU gain extra chance to get some rare items. Then again, you also have a stronger incentive to deal damage and kill those mobs. (And if you die, the benefit of MF is nullified as repair costs.)

Healing – If you only have self heals, you’re a tabby (a type of kittycat) for choosing this. Then a gain, if you have strong AoE heals, nice job.

No for inspection, thats elitists, no for shared magic find, that’s ridiculous. If you got to artificially share an attribute, share them all.

Oh, and this is @ Account:
A person with MF doesn’t have any less “uptime” than the rest of the party, and they have a stronger incentive to fight and deal damage to mobs.

This is because:
1) You die, you get repair costs, the effect of MF is nullified.
2) You don’t deal enough damage as compared to the rest of the party, you don’t get drops, your MF is nullified.

MF is there for the players with more skill than need for toughness/vitality/power, and if you think about it, isn’t any less beneficial for the rest of the party as a guy opting for vitality or toughness.

I don’t know guys but I don’t get much with MF gear :-/
I still miss MF rings and amulet yet all other items are MF and even back item has 3%MF. In total it is 89% of MF without Omnomnom bar. I was farming in Orr and Frostgorge sound on chain dynamic events for 3 days using only that armor and didn’t get any magnificent drop/loot. My goal was to gain better drop to gain gold. Then I returned to my full rampager gear and after 2 days I got more money than with MF gear on the same places I was with MF gear before.

I don’t know if something I do wrong, or my account is bugged or something else.

If anyone has tips or suggestions on this please let me know.

Fred Fargone.3127:

Now, I’d like to know, how many times have you been on a dungeon run that failed solely because someone opted for MF instead of, lets say, power?

In normal dungeons not really noticable since usually i only do fast paths that take 10-30 mins each. On fractals, plenty of times I’ve had 2-3 MFers in my group and the difference was huge.
I’ve even tested it with a whole team of people using MF and not using it, the difference is HUGE to the point that it was much more harder to complete and DPS was lacking everywhere.

Don’t make ridiculous examples of repairing costs, if you want to use MF in dungeons fine, but accept some people needs to have a choice if they don’t want MFers.
The fact that you can’t know if someone uses MF or not it’s a flaw, and obviously if only ONE uses MF it won’t kitten your group too much…but try with the whole team using MF and then talk.
You can also make any dungeon with 3-4 people by that matter.
If someone chooses to use Vit/Toughness gear they are choosing to be tanky, your examples are completely jokes…when you choose MF you are giving up on other stats for nothing in exchange but a self profit…and yet you are in a group.

Self profit and GROUP are exactly the opposite thing, I don’t even know how MF in dungeons made it to the release because it’s the biggest BS in a game.
And yes, i have a whole MF set which I’ve also used in dungeons until i realized how bad it is for my team.

People calls others elitists but I would bet anything that these same people wouldn’t invite a non level 80 to do dungeons, how is that any different than non wanting MFers in your group?

@Inkubus RNG is still RNG, by wearing MF you are not guaranteed to get more drops, you have better chance. But if rares for example have 0.5% to drop, having 150% MF won’t make rares drop everywhere, MF is mostly for stuff that drops more often like mats, greens, blues.

Fred Fargone.3127:

Now, I’d like to know, how many times have you been on a dungeon run that failed solely because someone opted for MF instead of, lets say, power?

Too many to count. Same goes for those who spec for purely glass cannon builds but those are even easier to identify and either kick them, or if they are guildies, teach them how to play and be of use in dungeons. I’ve been in dungeons when I had to kill a boss or two with 2 of my friends because the other MF users were usually dead = useless. When someone gets full glass cannon or MF gear they won’t only cause the deaths of themselves (good riddance I never help or rez people will “luck” in dungeons and will never will, I just tell them to use WP and repair) but they will cause the deaths of their mates too. You seem to forget (I dont’ know why) that this game has events that you have to actually protect someone, defend something or kill something fast, a dead player isn’t helping the group at all, but he will get his uber loot anyway, how is that fair?

This is because:
1) You die, you get repair costs, the effect of MF is nullified.
2) You don’t deal enough damage as compared to the rest of the party, you don’t get drops, your MF is nullified.

Your logic is really out of this world, you aren’t really playing this game aren’t you? Repair costs for deaths? Are you serious? Repair costs nothing, and you getting better loot will outweight any kind of loss you might have for your crappy stats. Damage doesn’t play any role on the loot tables, learn your facts straight, if it did, glass cannons would get better loot than tanks which isn’t happening at all.

I find it hard to believe such an epic fail concept as Magic Find managed to pass through beta, or even the planning stage, for a fully cooperative experience.
MF should either be removed from the game or be used as average or taking the max among the players at LEAST in a Dungeon run.

tl;dr: What we get here is a few players getting BETTER gear/loot while doing nothing and those that are actually playing are getting LESS loot, how is that in any way fair? Shouldn’t those who do more be rewarded more? Why would slackers and low quality-skill players be rewarded more than skillful players?

Or at least at an option to see how much total MF your party members have so we can kick them easily and let them rot

Averaging the MF seems a quite good solution. It is certainly not cool / very selfish to run MF gear in a dungeon. Removing MF outright would upset a lot of people and it is arguably useful when you’re doing out-door PvE. Your suggestion is a good middle ground.

Also what maddoctor said about being able to see how much MF people in your group has it’s sort of nice, that way you don’t need an inspect feature. It could be like any buff, displayed by the side of your HP bar.

Sleepy.2647:

@Inkubus RNG is still RNG, by wearing MF you are not guaranteed to get more drops, you have better chance. But if rares for example have 0.5% to drop, having 150% MF won’t make rares drop everywhere, MF is mostly for stuff that drops more often like mats, greens, blues.

Thanks for reply, but here how it looked like in my situation. Idea – farm items for gold.
Rampager gear on
It made me do more damage, quicker kill of so many mobs and got a lot of junk to sell and 50% of whites, maybe 35% blue and rest goes to green and yellow sometimes.

MF gear on
It made my dmg lower, took me a bit more time but not that longer time but looked like I almost don’t get those 50% of junk and whites. Like I am getting half of the drop. I got only 1-2 whites only and no yellows. I got like 60% of blue and rest of green.

Now, if I got any 100 items as drop with rampager gear, looked like I was getting only 50 items at best with MF gear.

Now suspicion that I am doing something wrong or my account is bugged came up when dungeoning. That is the main reason why I got MF gear. I thought my team mates have it. Now I don’t die a lot in dungeons (play ele with staff mostly), usually end up rezing others and yet, with MF on me or without it they get more often yellows than me – once every 3 runs at worst. I get yellow item once in 6 dungeon runs.

Does drop depends how fast you kill a mob? I heard that XP gain is higher the longer player fight the mob. Is loot opposite from that?

Inkubus.7529:

Does drop depends how fast you kill a mob? I heard that XP gain is higher the longer player fight the mob. Is loot opposite from that?

You don’t get more exp, the longer you fight a mob and you don’t get more loot the faster you kill mobs, only more experience. The only ways to get extra xp is if that particular mob hasn’t been killed recently (exploration bonus, which can be very high, so go and kill those hard to reach mobs) or as a killstreak, that is kill mobs in quick succession.

As i said, RNG is still RNG.

To notice the difference between MF and no MF you really need to achieve the most MF possible, since if an item has 10-20% to drop, having a 50% MF won’t make a difference but if you have 150-200 MF you may notice an increase.

Honestly, dungeons are the worst place for MF because usually you won’t kill many mobs and chests don’t seem to be affected by MF. On events where hordes of mobs spawn MF makes a difference because you might loot 500 corpses in an hour or more.

Getting rares is RNG regardless of your MF, some people will tell you they get 5-6 yellows an 1 exotic per Fractal by using MF…i can tell you they are trolling
MF or not, you may get 5 rares on the same dungeon or not get any rare at all in 10 dungeons.
I’ve done plenty of dungeons with and without full MF gear, to me the difference in loot is not worth it considering you spend more time doing the dungeon and time = gold.

A far simpler and less controversial solution is to agree, as a group, how much MF gear each person will wear, and set the stage that way.

I don’t disagree that people that bring MF gear when the group wants them in combat gear are a problem, but so are people in combat gear that don’t know how to play their class, that face-tank and autoattack, that don’t use utilities and elites, etc.

You will find problem players everywhere you go, no matter what the mechanics are. You can work with them, you can kick them, or you can tolerate them. The choice belongs to you and the rest of the group.

My 2-year-old wanted to go down the slide at a park a little while back. She climbed to the top and, just before she could sit to go down, another kid rushed in front of her to go first. She let him. When he did it again later, she yelled at him. The third time, she pushed him out of her way and went down herself. I was proud of her for that. At two years old she undertands the basics of conflict resolution—she understands that mistakes happen, that you use words first, and that you don’t have to take crap from somebody else.

Why did I go on that tangent? Because I see a couple kids squabbling over a slide every time I get in a group and we have these arguments. If my 2-year old can handle it, we as players can handle it without calling in outside help. My daughter had no means to kick that spoiled brat off the slide—in game, we can do that.

Talk to people first. If they aren’t going to be a team player, then remove them from the team. Stop letting them bully you and stop running to mommy and daddy and ANet because the playground bully won’t let you use the swings while wearing his MF gear and autoattacking the jungle gym without dodging the monkey bars. Ok, maybe the analogy fell apart at the end.

Problem is you can’t actually see what kind of gear people are using, so as to plan accordingly, there is no inspect option. Their very frequent deaths are an indication of either them not knowing how to play their class or that their gear isn’t of high quality.

Kicking players because they don’t have “good gear” is bad for me, I won’t do that, that’s why I don’t want a full inspect option, I’m not “elitist”, rather a simple option to see the total amount of MF they have would be enough.

Some people don’t want to go even to low level dungeons with non-80s (explorable mode), it’s called “boosting”, I have no problems with low level people or going with people with less than optimal builds/gear. It’s the intentional gimping of stats that irritates me the most, because let’s be honest that guy with 150% full MF must have a full Exotic Set somewhere. And I don’t want a silly “they will die a lot” excuse, because if a player dies (even with sub-par gear) it will affect the whole party in a very negative way.

But more importantly: I can’t stand people getting more loot/gear by doing nothing, while others are doing all the work and get nothing for their effort, I find it unfair and I don’t understand how Anet allowed this to happen in the first place.

More effort = more rewards, that’s how it should be, not the other way around.

You do realize there is an end all way of “fixing” the problem with MF gear in Dungeons…

Balance the dungeons correctly so that a group of 5 players can complete the Dungeon with White gear of the appropriate level. This way the “Level 80 only” and “No MF gear” groups can stop bickering about MF.

BUT, that will likely never happen since ANet made the Dungeons harder for the elitist that breezed to 80 by crafting and the only gear they ever got was Exotic then they went stomping around in level 30-40-50 etc. dungeons with maxed out gear and felt they were too easy.

Have you seen the difference between the stats of a White piece of level 30 gear (AC Story Mode) and level 80 Exotic? Those stats are where you get your edge for dungeon runs. Your base stats are what get scaled down, not your gear or traits.

Complaining about MF should be a moot point since you SHOULD be facerolling a lower level dungeon while wearing level 80 Exotic gear. Any “ideas” to fix MF should be a moot point for the exact same reason.

MF does not need to be “worked” on, properly balancing the dungeons it what needs to happen and ANet needs to ignore the elitists that demand that the dungeons need to scaled to their level 80 Exotic gear so they have a challenge.

You level up and get better gear to do facerolling. That is the whole point of leveling up.

You don’t know how downscaling works at all, right? And you obviously haven’t done any low level dungeons have you? Your gear AND your traits are downleveled as well as your base stats when you go to a lower level dungeon. Don’t compare dungeons with lower level zones, there is a huge difference, lower level dungeons are competitive and hard even for level 80s with full exotics. This has nothing to do with “elitists” and “hard” and “easy” dungeons or facerolling, it’s just an imbalance that exists in the game and needs to be fixed, reading the posts above should’ve made that pretty clear

Ravion Hawk.4736:

Balance the dungeons correctly so that a group of 5 players can complete the Dungeon with White gear of the appropriate level. This way the “Level 80 only” and “No MF gear” groups can stop bickering about MF.

It’s already balanced, nothing stops you from doing a dungeon naked or with white gear, just like using MF gear you can do dungeons, but in a less efficient way. I would bet that people can do ANY dungeon completely naked…using a low level to complete a dungeon is like being naked on your 80 after all.

The downscaling works for gear, not only base stats. I have full MF set and normal gear…with MF set i have way less stats even in a lvl 10 map.

maddoctor.2738:

You don’t know how downscaling works at all, right? And you obviously haven’t done any low level dungeons have you? Your gear AND your traits are downleveled as well as your base stats when you go to a lower level dungeon. Don’t compare dungeons with lower level zones, there is a huge difference, lower level dungeons are competitive and hard even for level 80s with full exotics. This has nothing to do with “elitists” and “hard” and “easy” dungeons or facerolling, it’s just an imbalance that exists in the game and needs to be fixed, reading the posts above should’ve made that pretty clear

I’ve delved into scaling details and stat progression and all sorts of other stuff. Hundreds of hours (including all of BWE2) devoted to this. Maddoctor has it right. Everything* gets scaled.

*MF% might not be scaled, other stats that have less-obvious effects might not be scaled, either. I still have tests to run on certain combinations and whatnot, but for basic stats including health, vitality, power, etc., this has all been confirmed.

The posts above are complaining about one stat, Magic Find.

They are coming up with every excuse under the Tyrian sun to have Magic Find reworked or removed.

There are more threads bickering about Magic Find across the Dungeons, WvWvW, and Suggestions sub-forums than you can toss an Asura at.

I’m waiting for the admins to put in a filter that prevents the creation of “blah blah Magic Find blah blah” and “blah blah Inspect Gear blah blah” threads.

If they want, I’ll go through and clean them out and delete every new Magic Find and Inspect Gear thread that gets created. And I’ll do it for free.

Maybe the game devs should make a special magic slot were all the upgrades for magic go like a necklace slot just for all the magic upgrades so you don’t lose out on your other stats with a cap of 24% – 25 % magic find….I like using magic find upgrades but it is true you lose other stats that actually help with combat and life.

The fact that there is people complaining about MF is a sign that something is wrong with it.

Guess what? People who DOESN’T complain about it and even argue that it doesn’t hurt your team is people who uses it in dungeons even if they are asked nicely to not do it

I’ve been in plenty of groups where players ask nicely to not wear MF and plenty of times someone replies “I’ll keep using it because i have the same stats and i get more exotics and rares”.

When the devs finally resolve the issue of people abusing others to get gear, then the Magic Find complain threads will stop. Hopefuly it will happen sooner than later.

There are no excuses, only valid arguments.

Account.9832:

What claims? That the MF is there instead of a combat stat? I would assume that much is obvious to anyone who can read the item properties, no?

Well your claims are twofold:

That a MF equipped player is a detriment to a group because of the MF stats instead of another combat/survival/support related statistic.

That and to quote for the second half

but he will also be hurting the rest of his party (by doing less damage, healing less, taking more damage and thus requiring more frequent assistance from the others, etc.).

As such you believe that ANET should average the MF over the group to deter people from going pure MF in dungeons in order to pull their weight. Or distribute better loot more evenly amongst the playing group.

Am I correct in my understanding of your position so far?

Account.9832:

The Magic Find set reduces your power by 115, reduces your critical damage by 8%, and reduces your overall damage (both crit and non-crit) by up to 10%

Please show how these numbers significantly hinder or impact a team from completing a dungeon?

How can you justify spreading the gear if the player has a skill build that accounts for the minute losses you listed above? Speccing for power/precision/crit in your build could more that account for the minor numbers you list above. So instead of going for a survival build they go for a more dps oriented build to cover the loss of power/precision/crit they get from equipping MF gear.

You have provided no actual proof, lets say in the form of a video testing in a dungeon with people running MF gear and without in multiple scenarios, that a group with people equipping MF gear have a significantly harder time completing said Dungeon.

OR in a single instance where a player with MF gear equipped requires significantly more assistance than others in a group.

I find you have provided very little in the way of a convincing argument or solid proof to your claim as to the significant detriment of a MF equipped person to a group. It’s no good making a claim without providing a modicum of proof to support your position.

If you can provide solid proof to support your statement I will gladly +1 your suggestion.

tl;dr

1. Prove that the lose of an additional Power/prec/tuff/crit stat impacts significantly on a players effectiveness.
2. Prove that a player with MF gear require more support on average that every other player in a group.

Or QQ less about MF.