Guild Wars 2

Ridgeblader.7135:

Please show how these numbers significantly hinder or impact a team from completing a dungeon?

Huh, i want whatever you smoke. The stats he posed are just what you are missing ONLY from the runes and it’s not “assuming”, it’s real numbers.
So let’s say, missing about 15% damage just from armor runes it’s already a good chunk of DPS, add to that all the missing stats from armor and jewerly and it will become a whooping 30%+ easily. I have plenty of sets by myself, the difference between explorer exotic MF gear + jewerly compared to berseker gear is 30-50% easily with basic runes…I’m not even gonna mention the difference if you use runes like scholar and expensive sigils. If you compare it to any other build the result will be the same but with other stats (less defensive, less HP, etc).

Why should anyone provide any proof to you about how MF hurts to the team when it’s so blatant obvious, it could be said the same about you, prove that it doesn’t hurt your team because so far everyone who says “it doesn’t hurt the party” simply says that with no actual proof or valid argument.
In the case of berseker/explorer MF gear the difference is being glass cannon or being just glass without the cannon part. Not to mention the majority of MFers use rare armor and green jewerly, and this is a fact.

Make a group of 5 MFers and run a dungeon (Fractal since it’s longer), and then make the same players use real gear and you will see the difference. Of course if you are the only leecher in your group the difference will be smaller.

Sleepy.2647:

Why should anyone provide any proof to you about how MF hurts to the team when it’s so blatant obvious, it could be said the same about you, prove that it doesn’t hurt your team because so far everyone who says “it doesn’t hurt the party” simply says that with no actual proof or valid argument.

The burdon of proof lies with the person or people making the claims. The impact is not blatantly obvious. You have no proof other that theoretical imaginings and rough number crunching.

You cannot say that it adversely affects a group anymore that having a well geared player with a solid build who can’t play for crap Or having an under geared player in your group.

Ridgeblader.7135:

1. Prove that the lose of an additional Power/prec/tuff/crit stat impacts significantly on a players effectiveness.
2. Prove that a player with MF gear require more support on average that every other player in a group.

Or QQ less about MF.

He already proved it… also anyone who ever used a MF set can see the difference which is huge. In addition playing with MF-set users is always funny as their usefulness in any high content (like dungeons) is approaching zero. I’ve been in a group with 2 other guildies and 2 MF users, let me tell you they weren’t much help and they were dying horribly.

If the difference is so low I expect players to use MF sets in WvW, but any sane player wouldn’t use it now right? There is a good reason for that

Ridgeblader.7135:

Sleepy.2647:

Why should anyone provide any proof to you about how MF hurts to the team when it’s so blatant obvious, it could be said the same about you, prove that it doesn’t hurt your team because so far everyone who says “it doesn’t hurt the party” simply says that with no actual proof or valid argument.

The burdon of proof lies with the person or people making the claims. The impact is not blatantly obvious. You have no proof other that theoretical imaginings and rough number crunching.

You cannot say that it adversely affects a group anymore that having a well geared player with a solid build who can’t play for crap Or having an under geared player in your group.

An ungeared player has better stats than an MF set user

Come on guys, i am challenging the idea, not shooting it down. I am just asking for a bit of proof. Videos are easy to make rather than this – Take it from me, I was there I saw it mentality.

If an idea cannot provide a little proof to back it up from a simple challenge then it’s not worth diddly therefor how can a community support the idea and gain the attention of the dev team?

maddoctor.2738

An ungeared player has better stats than an MF set user

now you are just being ridiculous.

Ridgeblader.7135:

You cannot say that it adversely affects a group anymore that having a well geared player with a solid build who can’t play for crap Or having an under geared player in your group.

Player skill and build has nothing to do with this topic, and it’s the only poor excuse people like you argue about in an attempt to be right.

So, by what you are saying…since I can play good enough I should be able to play with my character stripped because I will still be better than bad players and my party shouldn’t complain? Huh? It doesn’t make any sense.

If i had the choice when making a group, I would take any non 80 or non exotics player over a MF player anyday. If I’m going to have to carry someone I rather help the one who really needs it, not the greedy one who probably has a few sets of gear sitting on their bank and is still using rare MF armor and green jewerly (very few MFers have exotic MF gear).
A green set of gear adapted to your build is much better than MF exotic gear, I’m sure you don’t need a proof to know this.

Sleepy.2647:

If i had the choice when making a group, I would take any non 80 or non exotics player over a MF player anyday. If I’m going to have to carry someone I rather help the one who really needs it, not the greedy one who probably has a few sets of gear sitting on their bank and is still using rare MF armor and green jewerly (very few MFers have exotic MF gear).
A green set of gear adapted to your build is much better than MF exotic gear, I’m sure you don’t need a proof to know this.

This ^^

I feel exactly the same, I have no problems grouping with a lower level player or an ungeared player, but those MFers get on my nerves because as I said on my post on the first page, they INTENTIONALLY LOWER their character’s capabilities to earn more loot at the expense of my experience.

maddoctor.2738

An ungeared player has better stats than an MF set user

now you are just being ridiculous.

[/quote]

Do the math A full Geared Rare (maybe with some Greens) versus a full Rare MFer (as Sleepy said very few MFers are using Exotic MF gear) with Green jewelry (again, most MFers are using Green jewelry. Do the comparisson in stats and we can see who is being ridiculous.

maddoctor.2738:

When someone gets full glass cannon or MF gear they won’t only cause the deaths of themselves (good riddance I never help or rez people will “luck” in dungeons and will never will, I just tell them to use WP and repair) but they will cause the deaths of their mates too.

you blame MF, but you don’t seem to be working for the group yourself.

maddoctor.2738:

You seem to forget (I dont’ know why) that this game has events that you have to actually protect someone, defend something or kill something fast, a dead player isn’t helping the group at all, but he will get his uber loot anyway, how is that fair?

A person using MF wouldn’t want to die, since that nullifies any benefit gained from MF as repair costs. So its not because of MF, they’re just not too good players in general. Having a bit extra toughness doesn’t exactly make you immortal, and having MF gear doesn’t make you dead by default.

maddoctor.2738:

Your logic is really out of this world, you aren’t really playing this game aren’t you? Repair costs for deaths? Are you serious? Repair costs nothing, and you getting better loot will outweight any kind of loss you might have

I’m not sure if we are talking about the same game. I’m talking about GuildWars2, you?
Repaircosts is one of the major gold sinks, and if you die a lot, those will go up. Having some 100% extra MF (from armor) doesn’t mean you get legendaries from every drop. The average gain for 100% per drop seems to be more like some 20c.

maddoctor.2738:

Damage doesn’t play any role on the loot tables, learn your facts straight, if it did, glass cannons would get better loot than tanks which isn’t happening at all.

If you don’t deal enough damage, you won’t get tagged for the kill, you won’t get drops. Or XP. Simple as that. You haven’t noticed?

maddoctor.2738:

tl;dr: What we get here is a few players getting BETTER gear/loot while doing nothing and those that are actually playing are getting LESS loot, how is that in any way fair? Shouldn’t those who do more be rewarded more? Why would slackers and low quality-skill players be rewarded more than skillful players?

Or at least at an option to see how much total MF your party members have so we can kick them easily and let them rot

See, this is why ANet doesn’t want people inspecting each others armors. There is always one elitist in every group complaining about every minor detail, just because they think they are right about everything. Having MF doesn’t make you a bad player, and it doesn’t mean you die more than any other party member. Armor doesn’t equal skill. There are a ton of skills you can use to nullify damage completely. (I remember my ranger having 7 dodges in BWE’s… plenty enough to keep dodging almost nonstop.) It doesn’t matter what toughness/vit you have at all, most of the time. Unless you’re rubbing your face in some bosses stomach.

WvW is a different story, so is sPvP.

Sleepy.2647:

Now, I’d like to know, how many times have you been on a dungeon run that failed solely because someone opted for MF instead of, lets say, power?

In normal dungeons not really noticable since usually i only do fast paths that take 10-30 mins each. On fractals, plenty of times I’ve had 2-3 MFers in my group and the difference was huge.[/quote]

Given that there is no inspect feature, how’d ya figure? After your team totally failed, they confessed to using MF? Or… You started a dungeon run with people using MF? Something here doesn’t seem to add up…

Sleepy.2647:

Too many to count. Same goes for those who spec for purely glass cannon builds but those are even easier to identify and either kick them, or if they are guildies, teach them how to play and be of use in dungeons. I’ve been in dungeons when I had to kill a boss or two with 2 of my friends because the other MF users were usually dead = useless.

Again, there is something fishy here. Anyways, if an MF user is dead all the time, it’s not because he opted for MF, its because he generally doesn’t know how to play. Dying the whole time nullifies any benefit gained from MF.

Sleepy.2647:

I’ve even tested it with a whole team of people using MF and not using it, the difference is HUGE to the point that it was much more harder to complete and DPS was lacking everywhere.

You seem biased to believe MF would make everything worse, which is likely to reflect on any test you do. E.g. you lose on purpose, you just don’t know it.

Sleepy.2647:

Don’t make ridiculous examples of repairing costs, if you want to use MF in dungeons fine, but accept some people needs to have a choice if they don’t want MFers.

No, they don’t. People don’t need to have any reason to discriminate other people.

Sleepy.2647:

The fact that you can’t know if someone uses MF or not it’s a flaw, and obviously if only ONE uses MF it won’t kitten your group too much…but try with the whole team using MF and then talk.

Off topic, averaging the MF across the team that is already using MF doesn’t change anything.

Sleepy.2647:

You can also make any dungeon with 3-4 people by that matter.
If someone chooses to use Vit/Toughness gear they are choosing to be tanky, your examples are completely jokes…when you choose MF you are giving up on other stats for nothing in exchange but a self profit…and yet you are in a group.

And when you decided not to train dodging 3 hours a day, you are making yourself equally vulnerable. And yet, you are in a group. Lemme guess, next you want a damage meter to see who isn’t doing enough DPS? Right…

Sleepy.2647:

People calls others elitists but I would bet anything that these same people wouldn’t invite a non level 80 to do dungeons, how is that any different than non wanting MFers in your group?

I don’t mind playing with people who are below my level, as long as they are at or above the dungeon level.

Full green gear with cheap runes is better stats wise than full exotic MF gear. If no one noticed, exotic MF gear has less stats on the main stat and no third stat.
Not to mention that a MFer won’t have a set adapted to their build, they have MF…period. So, with about 70s you can gear up a character and bring much more to your team than a MFer.

And to the above post, half of these quotes are not even mine, wtf?

Comparison:

Green berseker chest- 89 power 59 precision 4% critical damage + Ruby orb (20 power, 14 precision, 2% critical damage)
Explorer MF chest (exotic)- 72 power 72 precision 3% MF

Yeh…MF gear is so good that green gear beats it by a mile.

And to the above post, the first quotes are not even mine, i could answer to all the quotes but most of your replies are just again the overused argument “I play well so I deserve to use MF in a group and be carried by my team”.

Fred Fargone.3127:

you blame MF, but you don’t seem to be working for the group yourself.

You do know that a dead player is a useless player and affects the whole team right? If they intentionally use subpar gear and die it’s not only affecting them but me too. Simple as that. Since there is no way to know of their MF status (to kick them from the group) I need to resort to some other tactics, it works pretty well.

A person using MF wouldn’t want to die, since that nullifies any benefit gained from MF as repair costs. So its not because of MF, they’re just not too good players in general. Having a bit extra toughness doesn’t exactly make you immortal, and having MF gear doesn’t make you dead by default.

Well it doesn’t make you dead by default but as I’ve said countless times you are intentionally gimping your character for personal gain. Why do that?

I’m not sure if we are talking about the same game. I’m talking about GuildWars2, you?
Repaircosts is one of the major gold sinks, and if you die a lot, those will go up. Having some 100% extra MF (from armor) doesn’t mean you get legendaries from every drop. The average gain for 100% per drop seems to be more like some 20c.

Huh? If you haven’t noticed, with MF gear on you get a lot more rares + rare materials that are worth 100 repairs. You should do more research on the benefits of MF ^^ you seem uniformed

If you don’t deal enough damage, you won’t get tagged for the kill, you won’t get drops. Or XP. Simple as that. You haven’t noticed?

The damage is 8% of the mob’s health, and you have plenty of time to do that damage in dungeons as, if you haven’t noticed, mobs have lots of hp there, you know even more than veterans. A simple run to a dungeon can saw you this, just one

See, this is why ANet doesn’t want people inspecting each others armors. There is always one elitist in every group complaining about every minor detail, just because they think they are right about everything. Having MF doesn’t make you a bad player, and it doesn’t mean you die more than any other party member. Armor doesn’t equal skill. There are a ton of skills you can use to nullify damage completely. (I remember my ranger having 7 dodges in BWE’s… plenty enough to keep dodging almost nonstop.) It doesn’t matter what toughness/vit you have at all, most of the time. Unless you’re rubbing your face in some bosses stomach.

Having MF DOES make you a bad player and it doesn’t take a genious to understand that. Armor plays an important role to any build, worthless armor = less effective build, it’s very simple to understand I think. Also you totally fail to understand the main issue, read mine and Sleepy’s post and you might identify it, on my post it’s in bold, hard to miss unless you are blind.

Sleepy.2647:

And to the above post, the first quotes are not even mine, i could answer to all the quotes but most of your replies are just again the overused argument

Oh, I was replying to you and mad at the same time, seems I got some of the quotes mixed up. Sorry ^^

If you did that, they’ll you’ll get people demanding you to bring MF to join their parties, which is also a bad outcome.

Sleepy.2647:

Player skill and build has nothing to do with this topic, and it’s the only poor excuse people like you argue about in an attempt to be right.

I don’t believe I have made a statement to the point of me being right or wrong. I believe you have either misread or not understood the point i am making, or are to blinded by your own point of view to see it any other way.

I don’t believe that MF makes a large impact. I am not saying I am right in this point. I have asked for some simple or solid tests before I support the idea listed in the OP.

Thats all.

Simply grab all your buddies, do a quick video of a dungeon with MF gear and without, post it on youtube and link it here for people to see that it has a noticeable effect. Thats all I am asking for. A little substance to back up your statement.

Player skill can be as detrimental to a group as a person geared with MF. As the op states:

he will also be hurting the rest of his party (by doing less damage, healing less, taking more damage and thus requiring more frequent assistance from the others, etc.).

This too can be applied to a poor player or someone undergeared. It is a valid point to raise. By this rational any groups that have players that require the above should have all stats evened over the group?

Sleepy.2647:

The fact that there is people complaining about MF is a sign that something is wrong with it.

People complain regardless. If you always listed and reacted to everyone that complains you would constantly be changing things. This forum is full of complaints and not all of them justified. You would have ANET take on board every single complaint listed on this site and make the appropriate changes too?

maddoctor

but those MFers get on my nerves because as I said on my post on the first page, they INTENTIONALLY LOWER their character’s capabilities to earn more loot at the expense of my experience.

Just because you like to squeeze every last bit of efficiency out of your build, skill rotation and gear should mean that everyone must also follow suite and play as you play?

maddoctor.2738:

You do know that a dead player is a useless player and affects the whole team right? If they intentionally use subpar gear and die it’s not only affecting them but me too. Simple as that. Since there is no way to know of their MF status (to kick them from the group) I need to resort to some other tactics, it works pretty well.

1) You don’t know if they’re using MF or not,
2) you just seem to be assuming they are since they die. And you don’t help them stay alive as they go down. Then complain about how they are dead. Sorry, I am having hard time following your logic.

maddoctor.2738:

Well it doesn’t make you dead by default but as I’ve said countless times you are intentionally gimping your character for personal gain. Why do that?

Some people do it because they are selfish, some don’t care what they wear as it doesn’t affect their ability to deal damage, survive and help their team.
Even with MF gear, I’m still the guy who survives longest, and usually ends up getting people up from downed state. Oh, I got skills for 8 sec damage immunity btw. I’m playing as elementalist with a staff.

maddoctor.2738:

Huh? If you haven’t noticed, with MF gear on you get a lot more rares + rare materials that are worth 100 repairs. You should do more research on the benefits of MF ^^ you seem uniformed

You saw the other staff elementalist here wondering why MF aint working for them? I’m also a staff elementalist… maybe there is something seriously wrong with MF and staff elementalists? O.o
I’m not getting enough yellows or greens to cover a few extra deaths.

maddoctor.2738:

The damage is 8% of the mob’s health, and you have plenty of time to do that damage in dungeons as, if you haven’t noticed, mobs have lots of hp there, you know even more than veterans. A simple run to a dungeon can saw you this, just one

Yeah, but a dead player doesn’t deal damage, remember?
I guess I was getting at it from an difficult to grasp angle. Sorry =/

Having MF DOES make you a bad player and it doesn’t take a genious to understand that.

I’ll just use that as the counter argument here.

Armor plays an important role to any build, worthless armor = less effective build, it’s very simple to understand I think. Also you totally fail to understand the main issue, read mine and Sleepy’s post and you might identify it, on my post it’s in bold, hard to miss unless you are blind.

I am half blind, actually, glad you brought that up.
Anyways, you and me seem to have a different understanding of what is a “issue” in a meant-to-be-casual game.

MithranArkanere.8957:

If you did that, they’ll you’ll get people demanding you to bring MF to join their parties, which is also a bad outcome.

Not to mention the issues this suggestion raises. Have a glass cannon and 3 guys with MF. Then go do some of the easier dungeons. You’ll get MF and capped damage. How’s that fair for anyone? 5th guy can be what ever, doesn’t matter.

Fred Fargone.3127:

Not to mention the issues this suggestion raises. Have a glass cannon and 3 guys with MF. Then go do some of the easier dungeons. You’ll get MF and capped damage. How’s that fair for anyone? 5th guy can be what ever, doesn’t matter.

How is that worse than the current situation where you could group up with MFers and suffer the exactly same thing and at the same time not getting “rewarded” for it?

I doubt anyone would ever ask people to use MF gear if MF was shared, maybe 1/1000 groups would do it.

The difference is people who ever used MF gear knows perfectly how it weakens your character, some will tell the truth and some will tell whatever they want in order to keep it like it is so they can “stealth” MF in dungeons for a self profit. The key word is SELF. Self and Group don’t fit each other.

Sleepy.2647:

How is that worse than the current situation where you could group up with MFers and suffer the exactly same thing and at the same time not getting “rewarded” for it?

I doubt anyone would ever ask people to use MF gear if MF was shared, maybe 1/1000 groups would do it.

It’s because you chose to opt for damage. Your stats aren’t artificially shared, just everyone else’s. And they can’t help it.

If you want to share one attribute, share them all. Then its fair.

Besides, if you get maxed damage and a good amount of MF on top of it, isn’t it the same as wearing two sets of armor at the same time? (While others are wearing less than a full set of armor.)

Sleepy.2647:

The key word is SELF. Self and Group don’t fit each other.

Indeed. I got nothing against sharing MF if every other attribute is equally shared. Then again, if you selfishly want others to share their attributes while you can keep yours… Now, that’s selfish.

Fred Fargone.3127:

It’s because you chose to opt for damage. Your stats aren’t artificially shared, just everyone else’s. And they can’t help it.

If you want to share one attribute, share them all. Then its fair.

Enough arguing, better to just add to ignore and not read such trollish bs.

Sleepy.2647:

Enough arguing, better to just add to ignore and not read such trollish bs.

Don’t supply a modicum of actual evidence, just cry bs and rage quit. Juvenile.

Alt F4 much?

Sleepy.2647:

Fred Fargone.3127:

It’s because you chose to opt for damage. Your stats aren’t artificially shared, just everyone else’s. And they can’t help it.

If you want to share one attribute, share them all. Then its fair.

Enough arguing, better to just add to ignore and not read such trollish bs.

Right, suit your self, but it doesn’t make sharing one attribute while not sharing others any better idea.
Though you made a very wise choice dropping the first paragraph of your message. It wasn’t too flattering for either of us.

Nah, i just decided that i had enough reading so many troll posts, I’m done with both of you

Sometimes it’s fun replying to trolls, but this already got kinda boring.

Sleepy.2647:

Nah, i just decided that i had enough reading so many troll posts, I’m done with both of you

Sometimes it’s fun replying to trolls, but this already got kinda boring.

Claiming anyone who disagrees with you is a troll isn’t really a valid arguing method, even though some people sure seem to treat it as such.

Fred Fargone.3127:

Sleepy.2647:

Nah, i just decided that i had enough reading so many troll posts, I’m done with both of you

Sometimes it’s fun replying to trolls, but this already got kinda boring.

Claiming anyone who disagrees with you is a troll isn’t really a valid arguing method, even though some people sure seem to treat it as such.

God forbid people have a difference of opinion.

Yes, because arguing that bringing more DPS or being more tanky is “selfish” and shares nothing for the team is a so valid argument and certainly is not trolling…please stop it, you are making me laugh so hard.

Trolling is fun when it’s not that obvious and I’m always willing to feed it, but when it gets to that point you already wish you didn’t. Anyways, have fun, this is my last post for you,

Kisses.

I guess since this is an MF topic, I thought I would just show you guys an idea I had about re-doing the MF system to address topics like the one the OP raised

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/A-Re-imagining-of-Magic-Find/909390

charms are cool, but maddoctor things like contributing more on a mob, can be very controversial especially since player’s will feel obligatory to contribute or suffer losses. It might seem like you can measure things out like this superficially, but it doesn’t work because player’s will feel jealous of other people who simply contribute more on one individual mob. It also makes people feel the need to be in a frenzy all the time and contribute constantly to one mob. It should be about overall progress and not just contributing to individual mobs to get more gain.

Contribution factor in and of itself is sort of like communism. You feel you have to contribute, or you’ll be lynched essentially. Not good in an RPG.

maddoctor.2738:

I’d say they should add the option of “increasing” your MF by actually doing more on a mob, […] but that would ruin support builds.

Exactly. How do you “measure” things like casting a Wall of Reflection and saving a teammate, etc.? Very tricky.

Personally I find Magic Find a nonsensical stat, but I can kind of see its merit in solo play; if you’re an experienced player, it gives you an “excuse” to make the game slightly harder for yourself (basically giving up one stat in every piece of armour) in exchange for slightly improved loot.

In group situations it’s just broken, and should either be averaged across the entire party or completely ignored.

anything can be measured through an engineering approach Account

don’t rely on discrete math.

There’s a vocal opposition against the usage of Magic Find (MF) gear and it’s well warranted. It encourages and rewards selfish behavior for optimal gain, limit not only the player’s survivability/DPS contribution (as intended) but his party as well, and all in all goes against Guild Wars’s social gameplay aspect. But what if Magic Find was made a party-wide stat?

The outcry calls for removal of the Magic Find stat, however the developers have taken great lengths to incorporate it and it can be seen as a great influence to the continued monetization of the game.

e.g. People desire exclusivity in items/gears, they set a goal to attain this.
The game offers a mechanic for these people to increase their chances, they keep playing rather than be discouraged at the dismal drop rate. A bigger active community encourages more players buy into the game and play it.

Now, what if the game was made to share Magic Find stats among the party members? A new understanding comes into play since everyone, regardless of their stance on this issue, would love to have a higher chance of obtaining great items/gears. We already know that MF percentage is increased when in a party, but each players’ MF gear contribution is still separated. If this stat were to be shared such as the “Strength in Numbers” trait from Guardians (+70 Toughness to party members), would it not mitigate some of the complaints against the current MF system? People will now balance their total MF against the team’s survivability/DPS and not just think of themselves.

Of course, a caveat would be there has to be max effective MF stat pool for the party since Magic Find sources are bountiful and having 5 party members all contributing to the MF count would be ridiculous.

Tigre.6458:

The game offers a mechanic for these people to increase their chances, they keep playing rather than be discouraged at the dismal drop rate.

There lies the biggest problem with the Magic Find mechanic, it proliferates every item that does not need to be (thus flooding the market), and having little to no impact on the items that sorely need its only redeemable aspect.

Tigre.6458:

We already know that MF percentage is increased when in a party, but each players’ MF gear contribution is still separated.

If that is the case, then there would be no need to further increase the MF qualities, because it only furthers the problem I listed above. You can double and triple your chance to find rarer items, but this is limited to drops from dead foes. The items that most people are hunting for are dropped so rarely from mobs that they most often come from dungeon chests (your cores/lodestones/etc). Since the MF ability does not affect anything that is not a dead foe, it makes it useless in the one area where partying is essential, dungeons.

Hmm. Interesting notion indeed. However, stats on armor should not go party wide. Why? It doesn’t make much sense. Saying MF boost should go to all party members is like saying the toughness of someone’s rumor should go to all. It’s a stat you choose to have in place of another. IMO, it shouldn’t be touched at all, and is fine as it is. Let everyone hate on it if they will, people need to get over the obsession with it “weakening the party”. Bad players who won’t cooperate delay success, not a stat.

I think making MF benefit the entire party would add an interesting system in which players would balance their survival, damage, and MF stats to maximize the loot gain in dungeons. Stacking MF instead of other stats makes the dungeon harder, so it works as a difficulty scaling system (which is something I’d been wanting in every dungeon outside of fractals). I think we’d be seeing the most hardcore groups going MF-heavy on their stat allocation and the casual pugs less so. Balanced properly, it would be a nice risk vs reward system for groups to consider.

@ xCrusadentx: MF seems like the only stat that would make sense to go party-wide. It is like the character’s increased ability to identify rare loot for his party, so one character’s MF could potentially increase another person’s loot rarity.

Threads were merged.

Minibiskit.6158:

I think making MF benefit the entire party would add an interesting system in which players would balance their survival, damage, and MF stats to maximize the loot gain in dungeons. Stacking MF instead of other stats makes the dungeon harder, so it works as a difficulty scaling system (which is something I’d been wanting in every dungeon outside of fractals). I think we’d be seeing the most hardcore groups going MF-heavy on their stat allocation and the casual pugs less so. Balanced properly, it would be a nice risk vs reward system for groups to consider.

@ xCrusadentx: MF seems like the only stat that would make sense to go party-wide. It is like the character’s increased ability to identify rare loot for his party, so one character’s MF could potentially increase another person’s loot rarity.

You do bring up a good point. My main point is that MF should not be removed or nullified in dungeons. It’s silly that hardcore players have absolute 0 tolerance for MF. I wouldn’t mind the party-wide buff, but removing is out of the question.

xCrusadentx.2784:

Hmm. Interesting notion indeed. However, stats on armor should not go party wide. Why? It doesn’t make much sense. Saying MF boost should go to all party members is like saying the toughness of someone’s rumor should go to all. It’s a stat you choose to have in place of another. IMO, it shouldn’t be touched at all, and is fine as it is. Let everyone hate on it if they will, people need to get over the obsession with it “weakening the party”. Bad players who won’t cooperate delay success, not a stat.

Lets be completely fair here: taking MF on your gear does impact your performance. It may not be by a lot, it may be almost completely insignificant (especially depending on your build), but it does have an impact.

Bad players tend to have a larger impact on a group than good players in MF gear.

Bad players will always be bad players, no matter what you do to stats. Selfish players will always be selfish players, too. Close-minded players… well, you sense the trend.

MF% is the difficulty setting. Set the level for your group before you start and trust people to comply with the request. If you have reason to believe they are not, then address the issue. Kick them from the party if you have to. But, for the love of Melandru grow a pair and talk to your groupmates like they are adults and solve your own problems before asking mom and dad to come in and force them to play nice. You don’t have to group with jerks, there are plenty more people out there that would love a spot—I recall one time where I could have finished off the last 2 spots in a group (wife and I) but we left because one person in the group was a jerk; the group chose the jerk over us, so we left, started our own group, and finished before they did.

“Selfish stats” are such a hollow argument when I don’t even have to wear gear at all. I can enter a dungeon naked if I choose to; I can wear the cheapest armor I can find, I can take off my helm and shoulders and you would never know. I can elect to not use consumables, I can run away and hide, I can bring sub-par skillsets, I can save 3g10s by not buying any trait books… you have so much power to undercontribute in ways completely unrelated to gear that the people fighting to “fix” this issue are missing the larger point—you’re ignoring the fact that you’ve chosen to approach this as a witch hunt and the only solution that will actually meet your ends will require you to interact with your group mates and trust them… and then punish them should they establish the trust was misplaced.

Being an adult is hard, isn’t it?

Fildydarie.1496:

xCrusadentx.2784:

Hmm. Interesting notion indeed. However, stats on armor should not go party wide. Why? It doesn’t make much sense. Saying MF boost should go to all party members is like saying the toughness of someone’s rumor should go to all. It’s a stat you choose to have in place of another. IMO, it shouldn’t be touched at all, and is fine as it is. Let everyone hate on it if they will, people need to get over the obsession with it “weakening the party”. Bad players who won’t cooperate delay success, not a stat.

Lets be completely fair here: taking MF on your gear does impact your performance. It may not be by a lot, it may be almost completely insignificant (especially depending on your build), but it does have an impact.

Bad players tend to have a larger impact on a group than good players in MF gear.

Bad players will always be bad players, no matter what you do to stats. Selfish players will always be selfish players, too. Close-minded players… well, you sense the trend.

MF% is the difficulty setting. Set the level for your group before you start and trust people to comply with the request. If you have reason to believe they are not, then address the issue. Kick them from the party if you have to. But, for the love of Melandru grow a pair and talk to your groupmates like they are adults and solve your own problems before asking mom and dad to come in and force them to play nice. You don’t have to group with jerks, there are plenty more people out there that would love a spot—I recall one time where I could have finished off the last 2 spots in a group (wife and I) but we left because one person in the group was a jerk; the group chose the jerk over us, so we left, started our own group, and finished before they did.

“Selfish stats” are such a hollow argument when I don’t even have to wear gear at all. I can enter a dungeon naked if I choose to; I can wear the cheapest armor I can find, I can take off my helm and shoulders and you would never know. I can elect to not use consumables, I can run away and hide, I can bring sub-par skillsets, I can save 3g10s by not buying any trait books… you have so much power to undercontribute in ways completely unrelated to gear that the people fighting to “fix” this issue are missing the larger point—you’re ignoring the fact that you’ve chosen to approach this as a witch hunt and the only solution that will actually meet your ends will require you to interact with your group mates and trust them… and then punish them should they establish the trust was misplaced.

Being an adult is hard, isn’t it?

I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you’re saying here.
The point of this thread is to discuss the effects of MF on a party’s performance, as per the OP. A common stance taken is that this stat is the reason why groups with people who run MF gear are a hinderence to the group. I am saying that is not the case, and that a player’s skill affects it more. Which is true whether a player is good or bad, whether the impact is positive or negative. As you said, you can make things hard for your group with the list of things you said, but what I am trying to say is that MF is not this selfish mechanic that some think it is. People shouldn’t be concerned with what stats a player is using, but rather how they handle themselves In a fight, if they’ve done the instance before, and see if they need help. Not whine about how NF is the downfall of dungeon parties. That is what I am saying. If people are really that obsessed with 1 stat that slightly affects performance, then they need to grow up and learn its not the end of the world. It’s a person’s choice to roll MF if they wish. The idea that MF will spread among party members after I think about it is a good idea to reduce the idea of this “selfish stat”.

A simple answer to all this wall of text.

If the majority of people that use all MF gear are very good or at least know how to play as backline this discussion won´t see the light of the day. But no, most people don´t know how to play with a P/T/V gear, imagine a MF gear. In my guild only ONE person can use MF gear and don´t delay the party, it´s a ranger and she knows how to play (on a 80 person guild).

I like to use MF gear, just some acessory, food and banner in AC and COF.

Zero Angel.9715:

This is a great idea. Even moreso if MF transfers over to other members in a dilute sense. Think for example if you have the MF wearer getting 65% of his MF when grouped and each teammate getting +35% of his MF. Well, the dude who is sporting MF gear might think twice about doing it, and party members might be a little less reluctant to party with him even if he did. Furthermore if you have 2 guys in the party sporting MF gear, you are effectively giving 100% MF to the guys sporting the gear while the other party members get 65% MF (assuming the MF gear guys MF is the same). Assuming that all party members were in full MF gear with the same amount of total MF, they would effectively get 205% of their average base MF, but would be essentially be playing on hard mode due to the stats they would have to give up to get that much combined MF.

….reading that, especially the last part, actually made me excited. I love hard dungeons and going into one with the leader saying “And everyone bring all your magic find gear” would make me say to myself ‘…this is gonna be awesome’.

That is of course if your worn magic find and the sum of the party’s was somehow added or averaged across the team. It’d sate my enjoyment of tough dungeons while giving me some good drop along the way.

As is, I actually only use magic find trinkets and keep my combat armor on (I only have combat armor, currently, often a direct damage set and a condition damage set) then switch to combat trinkets when the beef hits the skillet.

An idea I just had to handle magic find, replace the magic find in gear with something else then add a new type of system. The enchantment system: basically, All Gear can have magic find on it, but it’s a random enchantment on gear that is hidden until you equip it. There could be other enchantments, like maybe +exp, +gold, or other effects that are more for out-of-combat. I’d even look into the ability to transfer enchantments from one piece of gear to another, perhaps once per-story mode run where you talk to an NPC at the end who then does that for you because using a transmutation stone on the two pieces of gear will simply give you a new piece with a hidden stat that will be randomly generated when you put it on.

Oh, that would actually make me want to try on every piece of equipment I get just to see what enchantments it could have so I can get the ones I like. It might even change the economy so those 20 copper warhorns are actually worth a bit more (maybe 25 copper!).

Magic find is really an awful stat in this game. It promotes selfishness and also promotes people to gimp their characters in order to be selfish in the drops. Why is this stat in the game at all? The entire game is built around cooperation and being social and we have this useless and boring stat that completely contradicts the game’s premise.