Guild Wars 2

I think that when a game offers different styles of play we should be able to play in any of those styles and still be effective.

As it stands, for most PvE content, if you aren’t running full berzerker’s, there’s a pretty large contingent of people that get angry, make assumptions about your level of skill and throw insults at you. At least from a dungeoning perspective.

I don’t have a problem with someone wanting to go full berzerker’s, it’s a valid choice. The problem that I do have with it is that it’s supposed to be a high risk, high reward playstyle but I feel that the reward is too high and/or that the risk is too low. Not to mention people are essentially enforcing this playstyle on others and in some cases, nurturing a toxic, anti-social environment for players.

I don’t deny that full damage builds are effective and could be seen as the most efficient if everybody does the right thing, what I’m saying, however, is that other playstyles should be equally effective and desirable in some way.

I’m not entirely sure how to make other roles more effective, it’s difficult when any build can throw out defensive boons but here’s some ideas that I’ve had that might help others think of ways to even out the roles a bit.

- Make enemies in PvE hit harder whilst making toughness more effective.
- Possibly make enemies in PvE attack more often and/or give them a larger repertoire of abilities.
– This is a risky one, what if defensive boons such as protection and aegis(?) scaled somehow with healing power?
- Another risky one, what if attack/condition damage were shaved down just a little but the Might boon were made more effective? Perhaps not… people are already dissing non-fire fields enough as it is.
- Maybe a trait for support builds that deals a fraction of any over-heals as AoE damage?

Look, before anyone gets up in arms about this, I’m not saying these need to happen, I’m just trying to get ideas flowing to even out the roles a bit in PvE, in favour of making support/defense builds a little more desirable to have in your party.

Does anyone else have any other ideas towards making support/defensive builds more desirable in PvE?

I’m just surprised that they don’t have something like in the MMO game DCUO.

Roles, represented by an icon before your name that gave you basic bonuses for your role.

Shield – Tanky, Support, dps
Crossed Swords – DPS, support
Medical Cross – heals, support, dps

I don’t think simple stat bonuses based on a role we choose should be how it’s solved, however, since that’s essentially bringing back the whole trinity system which they don’t want to do.
I especially like my first two and the last ideas in the points I mentioned.

I don’t want to nerf zerker per se, I just want there to be desirable reasons to take up the other playstyles that exist and I think that my suggestions here at least push the support/defensive builds a little more towards being desirable to have with the intention of not knocking all out dps build’s desirability out of the picture.

Just as an example assuming that a few of ideas of mine are in place:
Enemies are now hitting faster and hitting low toughness characters harder, a team of dps players start having trouble staying up in a particular encounter, all of a sudden it would be preferable to have a high healing power player there to administer a buffed up protection boon and heals to them to allow them to take far less damage and stay alive which equals more damage and faster encounters.

I know this isn’t straying entirely too far from the whole trinity idea but the purpose of these ideas is simply to make other playstyles outside of dps more desirable to have around. I would love to hear any other ideas, too. I’m aware that my ideas aren’t perfect.

I use a Guardian with a Shield and Mace, He has over 1.5k in healing power, and many times have I had to keep people alive in big boss fights.

Being a healer of this kind is reward enough for me. Especially when you know that if you wasn’t there, then it’s likely the dungeon would fail. due to serious wipe outs.

That’s usually what I run, too because I enjoy that kind of play style. However, I am entirely aware that a lot of people see anyone in cleric’s or soldier’s gear as “bad at the game” or “using the gear as a crutch/training wheel to berserker” which entirely isn’t true, I simply like having fat heals, they like having fat damage. The problem is that people are more focused on efficiency and speed which usually means full on damage to get the job done fast and any other builds are essentially laughed at. Hence why I’d like to make support/defensive builds more immediately/evidently desirable to have on board.
I know when I’m in hairy fights and my heals have often saved many people from getting downed etc I’m the only that tends to know just how much I kept someone else afloat, other people would probably see me not doing as much damage as them and consider me a leech since my contribution is not immediately obvious.
I dunno where I’m going with this but you get what I mean.

I sort of understand you, but I doubt this is anything game related and can be fixed in such a way…. people will always remain pigheaded, and believe others aren’t doing as good as they are… I kicked a few guys out my guild for making other members feel useless in a dungeon, repetitively…. it’s just not right, but it happens.

Until either a add-on of some kind is made, or GW implement a way to see damage and healing output, then we wont really be appreciated. The guys in my guild, male and female I should clarify… (not fair to use the term guys as in gender, anyway) all know exactly how important my Healer type Guardian is, and when you get that backing from your guild, you and they will feel much better about having you with them in large fights, and dungeon runs.

Good luck friend.

Sickle.6502:

Until either a add-on of some kind is made, or GW implement a way to see damage and healing output, then we wont really be appreciated. The guys in my guild, male and female I should clarify… (not fair to use the term guys as in gender, anyway) all know exactly how important my Healer type Guardian is, and when you get that backing from your guild, you and they will feel much better about having you with them in large fights, and dungeon runs.

Good luck friend.

That’s for sure, the irony is that such a tool would introduce so much more elitism than there currently is that I don’t think it would really fix the problem entirely either.
I think this is going to be a problem inside and outside of the game until support/defensive roles are optional but preferred for a smooth run.

Thanks for taking the time to read/reply

I think the main problem here is that DPS is simply too effective. I don’t think DPS should be toned down, but I think the other roles should be brought forward to be on par with a DPS role. I also think they should redesign stuff like Defiant/Unshakable, to allow control and condition builds to be just as effective against bosses as DPS. And bosses should have counter measures against DPS.

In GW1 we had Spiteful Spirit which punished players that simply spammed attacks, and forced them to spread out more. And we had enemies such as Bladed Aatxe in one of the elite areas, which would tear through anyone if they didn’t wear a ton of armor, and used protective enchantments. You need this sort of stuff to make support more important. Right now the game’s combat is way too simple.

I think you’re right on the money there, Malafide. Hence my first and third ideas in the list up there (well, all of them, really).

Too late my arms are already up. I think that defensive is already good in pve so long as no one else knows. I can face tank pretty much anything in full soldiers and don’t have issues in dungeons as long as there is no gear check.

Heta.8629:

I can face tank pretty much anything in full soldiers and don’t have issues in dungeons as long as there is no gear check.

What you’re really saying, however, is that you do have issues if there is a gear check. Meaning a lot of people don’t want defensive/supportive builds in their runs, which is their choice, really but it’s undeniable that they’re currently still less desirable to have than straight DPS which is the whole point of this thread, to suggest ways to give players real reasons to want to bring someone along that is geared for defense/support.

I wonder if what is fueling this “support bad, zerker good” mentality is that going support heavy do not mean you can take any more licks in the short run. You still have to dodge and evade like the rest of them on the heavy blows, you just recover a bit better in the long run.

Meaning that support builds are better at attrition, while zerkers are all about not getting into a attrition fight in the first place.

Never mind that outside of boon duration (not much gear for that) and healing power (groan), there are really not much that affects support. Meaning that you can in practical terms play support with a zerker gear set.

That’s not true, I hardly have to dodge anything with my Support/Healer Guardian character.
He removes 2 lots of conditions every 10 seconds, so they don’t bother him, and I can normally act LIKE a tank… I say “like” because the holy trinity was abolished in gw2. But roles in general, and ways you wish to play is not something they can remove.

A support role is exactly that, you DO sacrifice a ton of damage and replace it with a ton of healing, allowing the people with high damage the chance to maximize their damage potential…
If only I could have a skill “taunt” – That would really be a great thing.

Also, if you try to play a support in Berserk gear, then you are NOT supporting anything, even yourself… Support is to help others, to help everyone around you.

You stay alive, by keeping others alive.

I swear that guardians is something unique in this.

Maybe because just about any action produces some AOE boon, and that again produce a personal heal…

But yes, having some way to manipulate mob aggro would go a long way towards a more cohesive group experience overall.

I won’t say that i’m missing the trinity as it is in other mmos, but in gw2 exping a new character and getting full exotic gear now is relatively easy fast and cheap that it could be introduced (a mitigated trinity anyway), since almost everyone can have a dps a tank and a healer character without much trouble. At least the dungeon game could be balanced in another way letting every kind of playstyle to complete it in the same amount of time. A full zerker party should know that he can hit hard but can be hit hard aswell and so should have to dodge more, or try to switch the aggro between the party members; 4 zerkers should know that having a tank or a healer is a good thing since a tank could take the aggro letting them to do theyr dps or know that the healer is there to keep them alive to do theyr dps and not someone to avoid because the dungeon would be slower… aggro shouldn’t be so random, mobs and bosses could try to kill whoever hits harder so that the other party members actually cooperate with him not just spam attacks… what i mean is that every playtyle shoud be enhanced and promoted not just zerker.

The dungeon adapts to whatever gear and builds are in it? That’s an interesting idea. Hopefully the same idea could be applied to events.

@Digiowl – in response to what you said about what’s fueling the whole thing. That’s what my first suggestion was all about. A one shot attack from a boss or something will flatten everyone in the party, regardless of builds and gear, however, a large percentage of non-boss mobs attack like once in like, three seconds or so. My suggestion is essentially an increase in sustained damage from foes to make sustained support more worthwhile to everyone and at the same time, increasing the effect of toughness would enable people to balance out their survivability against the increased sustained damage.
In response to what you said about zerker’s throwing out support boons, with the exception of heals, that’s entirely true. That’s what makes this a difficult thing to suggest ideas for but that’s why I thought that perhaps defensive boons such as protection and/or aegis could scale a little with healing power. All of a sudden, healing power becomes far more useful (I quite like it but I admit it’s a pretty hated stat). Of course the scaling wouldn’t be over the top but maybe along the lines of a high healing power character’s protection stops 40% of damage instead of 33% and their aegis scales up to have one additional block on it or something. Nothing super overpowered but still quite noticeable. In a group situation, the boons could stack the same way conditions stack, the boon applied by the highest healing power ticks first.

I know we all pretty much agree here. I’m not trying to start arguments with anyone, just in case it sounds that way.

I approve this in any possible way.

I do agree that people are often elitist or even very rude against other people who simply has a different playstyle. (I like to play support too)

And often i’ve been save a full wipe cause of my support build.

A way to make them more desiderable would be make zerk less desiderable, more squishy (sorry for my poor vocabulary).

They couldn’t be MORE squishy…. their damage output is the only useful thing about Zerk guys, I prefer a more rounded character to outright damage.

What good is hitting something extremely hard if you cant take what you dish out, or rather, what IT dishes out?
That’s why supports are needed, they bolster the defensive/healing abilities that DPS guys lack.

Right now if you get hit by a boss while wearing zerker gear, you’re pretty much dead. But if you’re wearing a ton of armor and toughness, the end result is often not that different. You still take a ton of damage if you get hit, so overall it’s not surprising that the zerker approach is so popular.

Giganticus Lupicus is a perfect example of this. It may be one of the most fun bosses in the game, but it also blatantly exposes the weaknesses of the game’s combat system. Because none zerker players die just as easily at Lupicus than those wearing full zerker gear. Toughness simply doesn’t matter enough, and neither does healing power. And thus killing an enemy as fast as possible, is a far better strategy to prevent as much damage as possible.

On the money again, Malafide!

We have all now established that nerfing zerker’s survivability isn’t the answer as it’s already pretty low, all things considered. The question is, what can be done to make having support in your group the more preferred option?

Like I mentioned earlier, I think more sustained damage from foes is a pretty good solution. Be it slightly harder hitting foes and/or foes hitting more often. An increase in the effectiveness of toughness is probably a good idea in this scenario, too.

I’d love to hear some other ideas or people’s thoughts on my ideas in the original post.

One example from recent weeks. I was facing down a elite krait just to see how tough they were using my “tank-ish” engineer. His normal attacks didn’t phase me much. But when the big hit came in a inattentive moment, i watched my health go from near full to near empty. One hit and i was scrambling for every heal i could dig up while trying to avoid further damage.

From what i have learned since, the elite is pretty much the normal kind x3. Meaning they seem to hit 3 times as kitten average. All fine and good for the normal attacks, as the typical variant seems to hit silly little as a baseline. But this basic upscaling sends the hard hits spinning out of control quite quickly.

What all this does is leave very little margin for error. Meaning that the difference between tank and zerker is bordering on academic, because you need to keep dodging anyways. Meaning that going for defensive stats are for the most part a futile gesture as the drop in DPS do not balance out with the increase in survival.

Too much dps race not enough boss mechanics… healing power needs a large buff, toughness needs a slight buff (only toughness, not armor) and boss damage needs an appropriate nerf in line with stronger mechanics.

Boons should apply to downed players, just scaled down in effectiveness. Stats from trait points (but not armor) should affect your performance while downed. Get up quicker to do your job as a support player!

%of xyz stat converted to abc stat in a new line of perfumes crafted by chefs, artificers, and huntsmen.

Vitality from traits reduces dazed duration Toughness from traits reduces knocked-back/down duration & distance. Healing from traits reduces stunned duration. Boon duration from traits reduces feared duration.

just throwing some ideas around xD