Guild Wars 2

I had this idea I thought would be cool for classes who don’t rely heavily on evades (Warriors, necros, maybe guardians) if there was a such thing as “Evade” hate spells. I’m not saying flood the game with them (please lord). However I do think it’d be an interesting way to combat all the vigor/evades for classes that don’t have them without hurting the ones that do.

(This is in response to Endurance Hate, which would make life even HARDER on classes without vigor. Bad idea.)

So what’s evade hate?

Simple: Have some moves that still contact the enemy while they’re evading. Such as dodge rolls/evasions/Invulnerable.

For instance, DeathShroud’s number 1 could be an evade hate that still hit an evading enemy.
(Dare I say it, to fix a lot of heart break and issues) Corrupt boon be an evade hate so we don’t poison ourselves so much for no good reason.
Things of that nature. Yes I play necro which is why I only suggested for Necro, I don’t play Warrior/guardian often, so I didn’t want to suggest anything for them and look stupid.

Er, I think your idea of evade hate destroys the idea of evade.

Evade destroys the point of skill shots/timing abilities, Boon hate destroys the idea of defensive(or otherwise) Boons, it’s to even the play field for the have-nots without making everything the same. I’m not saying make all of our auto attacks just go right through. Just some abilities that would be more powerful against high evade targets. If Characters and Necros can’t have high evasion/invuln, then why not at least be better at attacking those who do in little ways, not just every ability. I think you’re taking my suggestion to be too extreme.

ronpierce.2760:

Evade destroys the point of skill shots/timing abilities, Boon hate destroys the idea of defensive(or otherwise) Boons, it’s to even the play field for the have-nots without making everything the same. I’m not saying make all of our auto attacks just go right through. Just some abilities that would be more powerful against high evade targets. If Characters and Necros can’t have high evasion/invuln, then why not at least be better at attacking those who do in little ways, not just every ability. I think you’re taking my suggestion to be too extreme.

Actually, no. Evade destroys the skill-less use of skill shots and poorly timed abilities, as well it should. If you can’t time your abilities to avoid them being evaded, then you shouldn’t be landing them, as per mechanics working as intended.

Pyroatheist.9031:

ronpierce.2760:

Evade destroys the point of skill shots/timing abilities, Boon hate destroys the idea of defensive(or otherwise) Boons, it’s to even the play field for the have-nots without making everything the same. I’m not saying make all of our auto attacks just go right through. Just some abilities that would be more powerful against high evade targets. If Characters and Necros can’t have high evasion/invuln, then why not at least be better at attacking those who do in little ways, not just every ability. I think you’re taking my suggestion to be too extreme.

Actually, no. Evade destroys the skill-less use of skill shots and poorly timed abilities, as well it should. If you can’t time your abilities to avoid them being evaded, then you shouldn’t be landing them, as per mechanics working as intended.

I guess I shouldn’t be able to land hits on regen rangers with Vigor and sword+dagger, or an evade thief, or a Mesmer who has stealth+Phant defender(to block the times I do hit) but also access to vigor via staff and 25% up time invuln plus a shatter to invuln some more? That’s not skill bud. It’s the same thing in reverse. It’s having passive evades to avoid needing to time your own evades.

i like the idea that no matter what the enemy can do I can always evade it.

tbh a better option is just reducing the number of evades that builds can bring. Nerfing energy sigils, insane endurance regen, skills that evade (which are weird anyway because only part of the animation evades so it’s kind of stupid imo).

ronpierce.2760:

I guess I shouldn’t be able to land hits on regen rangers with Vigor and sword+dagger, or an evade thief, or a Mesmer who has stealth+Phant defender(to block the times I do hit) but also access to vigor via staff and 25% up time invuln plus a shatter to invuln some more? That’s not skill bud. It’s the same thing in reverse. It’s having passive evades to avoid needing to time your own evades.

I think its more that we need more wide-spread boon hate than what we have as right now boons are incredibly hard to counter unless you field a necro/thief (possibly warrior soon?), and the removal rate can be slow vs. the re-application rate. In fact specific boon hate may not be a bad thing to introduce rather than just “strip 2 boons” have things like “strip vigor/fury/retal” much like how thieves have “remove X condition” through their heals and other classes have specific condition hate. We had somewhat similar concepts in GW1 with how warriors had the “block hate” skills like Irresistible Blow and Seeking Blade → Aegis hate. We could easily retool some of the less useful skills on warriors/rangers to have this sort of viability as boon hate.

If weakness is buffed to actually be usable, you may see it… be used. It is evade hate.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Actually, no. Evade destroys the skill-less use of skill shots and poorly timed abilities, as well it should. If you can’t time your abilities to avoid them being evaded, then you shouldn’t be landing them, as per mechanics working as intended.

this.
Btw, having evades means you can also fake-cast things to bait evades (ie: a guardian on kyhlo, baiting evades till enemy can be “safely” knocked away with hammer)
No evade = just spam everything, enemy can’t block it anyway.

In guild wars 1, certain abilities had conditional effects if they were mitigated in a certain way.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Irresistible_Blow

If blocked, Irresistible blow knocks you on your kitten . Also note that the skill is on a 6 second cd, and it costs very little energy. Trying to mitigate hammer warriors damage with block was stupid (instead, you’d take advantage of their kittenty adren build up and blind them when they were about to unleash their pressure combo)

The important thing to note here is that it wasn’t so much ‘evade hate’ as it was ‘types of protection hate’.

Imagine a skill: Poisoned Medicine. Ground targeted Applies 3 stacks of bleeding for x seconds. If affected foe has regeneration, it applies 5 stacks of bleeding and a stack of poison.

Or something like: Protector’s Betrayal: Under your sustained damage level damage, if target opponent is under the effects of protection, x2 damage + 10 vuln.

Or maybe something even like: Rended: x damage. If target foe has 15 stacks of vulnerability, apply deep wound. If not, apply 10 stacks of vulnerability.

Tripwire could be redesigned such that it doesn’t activate until someone tries to evade across it, then it causes 3s kd.

Etc.

Evade hate is perhaps too strong of a word. A smarter move would be to balance skills that give evades to have longer cooldowns. Skills with evade should be defensive and situational, not spammable buttons as they currently are for some classes.

So in theory, yeah I agree. I like the idea of making sure there’s counters to strong game mechanics. Actual implementation would need to be done very carefully though, and I think necro DS #1 would be too much. I’d prefer maybe a short duration condition that does damage for each evade.

Brigg.6189:

So in theory, yeah I agree. I like the idea of making sure there’s counters to strong game mechanics. Actual implementation would need to be done very carefully though, and I think necro DS #1 would be too much. I’d prefer maybe a short duration condition that does damage for each evade.

That’s probably a bit too much as it punishes the classes that are already soft. The reason thieves and rangers have so much evade is because their melee specs are soft specs (thief especially) if you start just blankly dealing them damage on their dodges with their already low health and armor, that might be too much. They need those extra dodges to survive, so if we take it away we need to boost their survivability in other ways.

I think its better to tackle the source of the problem: spammable evades, spammable vigor, and spammable aegis.

Isn’t the thread on “endurance hate” still going? That is a much better concept. Making weakness hurt endurance more, or something similar to the endurance regen you get with quickness on.

Have skill go through evades, that just doesn’t make any sense. Conditions (when already applied) already do that. And since this probably has something to do with S/D thieves, they are very weak to conditions.

this is not about endurance gains, Eonxbonx, it is about the nature of evade.

im with Briggs, in that i can certainly see the gilding on this idea, like certain aoe spells that can be avoided by dodging out of them. im not sure how dodging through flame (in a semi realistic way of looking at things) would avoid the flame entirely.

that is, i see what the OP is talking about.

But Pyro and Folli are right, the dynamic of evading attacks is essential to the skill set of being situationally aware of your environment and your opponents, and increases both challenge and fun to combat. missing a dodge sucks, (like when a guardian baits the evade) but evading feels good, it is an accomplishment that wholly benefits you and your team.

The reason “Endurance Hate” doesn’t work is that those without a lot of evades just simply get hurt the worse because they have no ability evades AND get to use their little evades (dodge roll) less. Endurance hate actually hurts MORE who it’s trying to help. It’s not just dodge rolls that’s the problem, but the short cooldown(or no cooldown) evades that are spammable or happen far too frequently that make a fight near one-sided. Dodge rolling itself is not an issue, its the combination, and really the largest issue is evades on weapon skills, but also the potency of vigor. Endurance itself without those other benefits are actually almost too slow. Necromancers are almost Endurance starved as it is. If you make attacks that their Endurance away even more, we’d literally never get to dodge.

For once, I somewhat agreed with you, Pierce.

Some classes have far too many evades, and I personally feel that classes without them should be able to punish that.

Agreed The Mighty Altroll. The whole form of balance isn’t “I can do this” and “You can do that”, it should be a form of Assault and Response. Currently people can respond to conditions (removal), they can respond to stealth (aoe) they can respond to damage (healing/toughness) they can respond to healing (poison/burst) they can respond to cc (stun breaks). Evade just doesn’t have that. It’s a one sided fight mechanic and is far too accessible.

ronpierce.2760:

Agreed The Mighty Altroll. The whole form of balance isn’t “I can do this” and “You can do that”, it should be a form of Assault and Response. Currently people can respond to conditions (removal), they can respond to stealth (aoe) they can respond to damage (healing/toughness) they can respond to healing (poison/burst) they can respond to cc (stun breaks). Evade just doesn’t have that. It’s a one sided fight mechanic and is far too accessible.

this is a very good way of putting things. though, i suppose people will argue that CC is the evade counter.

except that you can evade cc landing on you.

ronpierce.2760:

The reason “Endurance Hate” doesn’t work is that those without a lot of evades just simply get hurt the worse because they have no ability evades AND get to use their little evades (dodge roll) less. Endurance hate actually hurts MORE who it’s trying to help. It’s not just dodge rolls that’s the problem, but the short cooldown(or no cooldown) evades that are spammable or happen far too frequently that make a fight near one-sided. Dodge rolling itself is not an issue, its the combination, and really the largest issue is evades on weapon skills, but also the potency of vigor. Endurance itself without those other benefits are actually almost too slow. Necromancers are almost Endurance starved as it is. If you make attacks that their Endurance away even more, we’d literally never get to dodge.

You actually think this wouldn’t hurt classes who only have two dodge rolls? If you are able to hit a class in their dodge rolls that just makes them weaker. Conditions already do this. Someone said earlier in this thread (I think), that dodging ill-timed skill shots should be rewarded with you evading them.

Why should someone get hit, by death shroud 1 (e.g) because I dodged it and I am about to die?

EoNxBoNx.9213:

ronpierce.2760:

The reason “Endurance Hate” doesn’t work is that those without a lot of evades just simply get hurt the worse because they have no ability evades AND get to use their little evades (dodge roll) less. Endurance hate actually hurts MORE who it’s trying to help. It’s not just dodge rolls that’s the problem, but the short cooldown(or no cooldown) evades that are spammable or happen far too frequently that make a fight near one-sided. Dodge rolling itself is not an issue, its the combination, and really the largest issue is evades on weapon skills, but also the potency of vigor. Endurance itself without those other benefits are actually almost too slow. Necromancers are almost Endurance starved as it is. If you make attacks that their Endurance away even more, we’d literally never get to dodge.

You actually think this wouldn’t hurt classes who only have two dodge rolls? If you are able to hit a class in their dodge rolls that just makes them weaker. Conditions already do this. Someone said earlier in this thread (I think), that dodging ill-timed skill shots should be rewarded with you evading them.

Why should someone get hit, by death shroud 1 (e.g) because I dodged it and I am about to die?

The difference is:
Those less reliant on dodging would less likely be effected by the (few) abilities that are evade-hate, while others would feel the hurt more often who do try to evade every attack.

This is opposed to the previous suggestion:
Endurance hate, which would effectively burn endurance. In this case, Those without evades would also never be able to dodge cause the endurance would be eaten, and the evades on weapon skills would be untouched.

Yes, this would be a better option to target the real enemy.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

ronpierce.2760:

The reason “Endurance Hate” doesn’t work is that those without a lot of evades just simply get hurt the worse because they have no ability evades AND get to use their little evades (dodge roll) less. Endurance hate actually hurts MORE who it’s trying to help. It’s not just dodge rolls that’s the problem, but the short cooldown(or no cooldown) evades that are spammable or happen far too frequently that make a fight near one-sided. Dodge rolling itself is not an issue, its the combination, and really the largest issue is evades on weapon skills, but also the potency of vigor. Endurance itself without those other benefits are actually almost too slow. Necromancers are almost Endurance starved as it is. If you make attacks that their Endurance away even more, we’d literally never get to dodge.

You actually think this wouldn’t hurt classes who only have two dodge rolls? If you are able to hit a class in their dodge rolls that just makes them weaker. Conditions already do this. Someone said earlier in this thread (I think), that dodging ill-timed skill shots should be rewarded with you evading them.

Why should someone get hit, by death shroud 1 (e.g) because I dodged it and I am about to die?

Also, knowing to change to DS, which degens and can be bursted out of, to finish someone off who is about to die would be a skill factor for the Necro. Sure you’re trying to play skillfully, but so is the Necromancer. Skill goes two ways. This would be countering a counter (which many evades/invulns already do)

ronpierce.2760:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

ronpierce.2760:

The reason “Endurance Hate” doesn’t work is that those without a lot of evades just simply get hurt the worse because they have no ability evades AND get to use their little evades (dodge roll) less. Endurance hate actually hurts MORE who it’s trying to help. It’s not just dodge rolls that’s the problem, but the short cooldown(or no cooldown) evades that are spammable or happen far too frequently that make a fight near one-sided. Dodge rolling itself is not an issue, its the combination, and really the largest issue is evades on weapon skills, but also the potency of vigor. Endurance itself without those other benefits are actually almost too slow. Necromancers are almost Endurance starved as it is. If you make attacks that their Endurance away even more, we’d literally never get to dodge.

You actually think this wouldn’t hurt classes who only have two dodge rolls? If you are able to hit a class in their dodge rolls that just makes them weaker. Conditions already do this. Someone said earlier in this thread (I think), that dodging ill-timed skill shots should be rewarded with you evading them.

Why should someone get hit, by death shroud 1 (e.g) because I dodged it and I am about to die?

The difference is:
Those less reliant on dodging would less likely be effected by the (few) abilities that are evade-hate, while others would feel the hurt more often who do try to evade every attack.

This is opposed to the previous suggestion:
Endurance hate, which would effectively burn endurance. In this case, Those without evades would also never be able to dodge cause the endurance would be eaten, and the evades on weapon skills would be untouched.

Yes, this would be a better option to target the real enemy.

When I read that bold text, I can’t help but feel this is just another thread about S/D thieves. Considering rangers, warriors, and thieves are the only three classes with evade on weapon skills, and no one makes threads about rangers short bow 3 or warrior greatsword 3.

Regardless, the skill cap in this game would drop drastically if something like this actually happened. You could use your “evade hate” skill on someone whenever they try to dodge. In that case, these skills would need large CDs and would need to be utilities. If not evade, and the dodge mechanic would be better off being removed from the game.

Eonxbonx, I do not believe you understand the point, or the concept of it. He’s not asking for a Thief skill that could be spammed on an initiative cost to interrupt someone that even thinks about dodging/evading/healing. We’re talking about a skill counter to a skill capability, (and honestly, evasion isn’t exactly a skill-required thing, since most of the time you’re just evading until your heal is up)

EoNxBoNx.9213:

ronpierce.2760:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

ronpierce.2760:

The reason “Endurance Hate” doesn’t work is that those without a lot of evades just simply get hurt the worse because they have no ability evades AND get to use their little evades (dodge roll) less. Endurance hate actually hurts MORE who it’s trying to help. It’s not just dodge rolls that’s the problem, but the short cooldown(or no cooldown) evades that are spammable or happen far too frequently that make a fight near one-sided. Dodge rolling itself is not an issue, its the combination, and really the largest issue is evades on weapon skills, but also the potency of vigor. Endurance itself without those other benefits are actually almost too slow. Necromancers are almost Endurance starved as it is. If you make attacks that their Endurance away even more, we’d literally never get to dodge.

You actually think this wouldn’t hurt classes who only have two dodge rolls? If you are able to hit a class in their dodge rolls that just makes them weaker. Conditions already do this. Someone said earlier in this thread (I think), that dodging ill-timed skill shots should be rewarded with you evading them.

Why should someone get hit, by death shroud 1 (e.g) because I dodged it and I am about to die?

The difference is:
Those less reliant on dodging would less likely be effected by the (few) abilities that are evade-hate, while others would feel the hurt more often who do try to evade every attack.

This is opposed to the previous suggestion:
Endurance hate, which would effectively burn endurance. In this case, Those without evades would also never be able to dodge cause the endurance would be eaten, and the evades on weapon skills would be untouched.

Yes, this would be a better option to target the real enemy.

When I read that bold text, I can’t help but feel this is just another thread about S/D thieves. Considering rangers, warriors, and thieves are the only three classes with evade on weapon skills, and no one makes threads about rangers short bow 3 or warrior greatsword 3.

Regardless, the skill cap in this game would drop drastically if something like this actually happened. You could use your “evade hate” skill on someone whenever they try to dodge. In that case, these skills would need large CDs and would need to be utilities. If not evade, and the dodge mechanic would be better off being removed from the game.

Thief, ranger and Mesmer are my top enemies. I include Blur into the line of Evades.

Vena.8436:

Brigg.6189:

So in theory, yeah I agree. I like the idea of making sure there’s counters to strong game mechanics. Actual implementation would need to be done very carefully though, and I think necro DS #1 would be too much. I’d prefer maybe a short duration condition that does damage for each evade.

That’s probably a bit too much as it punishes the classes that are already soft. The reason thieves and rangers have so much evade is because their melee specs are soft specs (thief especially) if you start just blankly dealing them damage on their dodges with their already low health and armor, that might be too much. They need those extra dodges to survive, so if we take it away we need to boost their survivability in other ways.

I think its better to tackle the source of the problem: spammable evades, spammable vigor, and spammable aegis.

Well, my reasoning for a condition would be that it would be something you could recognize and make a decision about, either cure it, use a different defensive move, or eat it. What it would really punish is if someone would continue to spam evades with it on. But yeah, even that would be hard to balance and would be kitten squishy classes.

But yeah, I also agree with going after the source. I’d be happy to see that too.

Err… evade hate on DS 1 attack…..

So, how does a skilless 1 spam solve evades?

Evade hate is defeating the purpose of evades.

There are already ways to defeat evades…wait until the evade is over and attack. In most case, the hit usually land since most skills have cast time which gives a half second window for anything.

Errr… the only class in which evades is OP is BM ranger, but thief is not OP. Mesmer is not OP either.

Pyroatheist.9031:

ronpierce.2760:

Evade destroys the point of skill shots/timing abilities, Boon hate destroys the idea of defensive(or otherwise) Boons, it’s to even the play field for the have-nots without making everything the same. I’m not saying make all of our auto attacks just go right through. Just some abilities that would be more powerful against high evade targets. If Characters and Necros can’t have high evasion/invuln, then why not at least be better at attacking those who do in little ways, not just every ability. I think you’re taking my suggestion to be too extreme.

Actually, no. Evade destroys the skill-less use of skill shots and poorly timed abilities, as well it should. If you can’t time your abilities to avoid them being evaded, then you shouldn’t be landing them, as per mechanics working as intended.

This would be true if it wasn’t for the unbalancing availability of Evade in some specs.

Ranger with a GS / Sword Dagger has 4 Evade skills. 3 on one weapon set.
A 1s Evade during each autoattack chain with the GS…
Evade Utility skill and a huge amount of Vigor + 50% increased regen rate for just 5pts meaning a lot of dodge rolls too. And the highest self heal available.

A Thief specc’d for Initiative regeneration with Sword Dagger can spam Larcenous Strike for 50% evasion uptime, gap closing, boon stealing and solid damage.
Oh and the boon stealing is Unblockable…

I think thats not a bad Idea!

I don’t see how it would destroy Evading/Dodging; simply because there is some sort of an Answer to it doesn’t make it obsolete.

I don’t really like the Idea of it doing DMG though, it’s too much of a counter of the intended use of Evading and could be extremely frustrating to play against: I dodge sth. very well and then I get a burst slapped in my face – not very fun! ^^’

It could be sth. that would reduce the further use of Evades/Dodges (Drain Endurance) or apply vulnerability or make the Enemy have reduced offensive Capabilities, reduce Movement etc. Basically everything besides big Amounts of Spiked-DMG.

PowerBottom.5796:

I think thats not a bad Idea!

I don’t see how it would destroy Evading/Dodging; simply because there is some sort of an Answer to it doesn’t make it obsolete.

I don’t really like the Idea of it doing DMG though, it’s too much of a counter of the intended use of Evading and could be extremely frustrating to play against: I dodge sth. very well and then I get a burst slapped in my face – not very fun! ^^’

It could be sth. that would reduce the further use of Evades/Dodges (Drain Endurance) or apply vulnerability or make the Enemy have reduced offensive Capabilities, reduce Movement etc. Basically everything besides big Amounts of Spiked-DMG.

we already have a condition that does that… its called weakness and its getting a global buff.

The reason why is not effective in the game is because there are too much condition removal in the game. So, basically its useless against all classes except Mesmer and thieves.

Ranger is kidda on the OP side based on number which I happy that the pet will be nerfed

loseridoit.2756:

PowerBottom.5796:

I think thats not a bad Idea!

I don’t see how it would destroy Evading/Dodging; simply because there is some sort of an Answer to it doesn’t make it obsolete.

I don’t really like the Idea of it doing DMG though, it’s too much of a counter of the intended use of Evading and could be extremely frustrating to play against: I dodge sth. very well and then I get a burst slapped in my face – not very fun! ^^’

It could be sth. that would reduce the further use of Evades/Dodges (Drain Endurance) or apply vulnerability or make the Enemy have reduced offensive Capabilities, reduce Movement etc. Basically everything besides big Amounts of Spiked-DMG.

we already have a condition that does thakittens called weakness and its getting a global buff.

The reason why is not effective in the game is because there are too much condition removal in the game. So, basically its useless against all classes except Mesmer and thieves.

Ranger is kidda on the OP side based on number which I happy that the pet will be nerfed

But Weakness isn’t sth. that has to be timed well with the dodge of the opponent, which is what I had in mind. Besides that, it’s a Condition, like you’ve written.

And I think the Argument of too much Condition-Hate is quite funny, because we’ve yet to see stuff like:

- Full Condition-Builds with 3+ Condi-DD’s, Epidemic (possibly multiple Epidemics!) etc.
- Very strong offensive split-oriented Condition-Builds that abuse the fact that AoE-Condi-Removals increse in effectiveness in big Teamfights.

PowerBottom.5796:

But Weakness isn’t sth. that has to be timed well with the dodge of the opponent, which is what I had in mind. Besides that, it’s a Condition, like you’ve written.

And I think the Argument of too much Condition-Hate is quite funny, because we’ve yet to see stuff like:

- Full Condition-Builds with 3+ Condi-DD’s, Epidemic (possibly multiple Epidemics!) etc.
- Very strong offensive split-oriented Condition-Builds that abuse the fact that AoE-Condi-Removals increse in effectiveness in big Teamfights.

Trust me, weakness is quite strong. I killed lots of shatter mesmers with that condition. Stack it and the enemy will blow away their defense cd which destroys the enemy sustain. Woot, the condition will reduce burst skills too.

Trust me, there is lots of condition removal in the game.
Guards, necros, elementals have very good access to condition removal.

Epidemic is meant to counter boons which serves a different purpose. Teams only bring necros to destroy guards.

I think people are overplaying the concept of skillful dodges. Most people just smash dodge and luckily evade Banish, grenades, Eviscerate, Corrupt Boon and Epidemic, and the enormous access to vigor lets them get away with it.

I have seen these same people use Earth Armor, Save Yourselves, or an invulnerability and immediately dodge, which makes absolutely no sense unless they’re fighting a necromancer — and even then it makes little sense because good necromancers typically give it a second before using Corrupt Boon.

But I think the problem is vigor and compounded evades, blocks and invulnerabilities. Those problems should be addressed before evade or endurance hate is added.

Only hate skills what this game really needs are stealth hate.

how about an evade hit that stops the target from evading for a few secs, but only takes effect if the attack was evaded. has good back and forth play so you can do something if you know for sure your just going to get evaded anyway and yet can be avoided by the target simply not dodging it.

ronpierce.2760:

Pyroatheist.9031:

ronpierce.2760:

Evade destroys the point of skill shots/timing abilities, Boon hate destroys the idea of defensive(or otherwise) Boons, it’s to even the play field for the have-nots without making everything the same. I’m not saying make all of our auto attacks just go right through. Just some abilities that would be more powerful against high evade targets. If Characters and Necros can’t have high evasion/invuln, then why not at least be better at attacking those who do in little ways, not just every ability. I think you’re taking my suggestion to be too extreme.

Actually, no. Evade destroys the skill-less use of skill shots and poorly timed abilities, as well it should. If you can’t time your abilities to avoid them being evaded, then you shouldn’t be landing them, as per mechanics working as intended.

I guess I shouldn’t be able to land hits on regen rangers with Vigor and sword+dagger, or an evade thief, or a Mesmer who has stealth+Phant defender(to block the times I do hit) but also access to vigor via staff and 25% up time invuln plus a shatter to invuln some more? That’s not skill bud. It’s the same thing in reverse. It’s having passive evades to avoid needing to time your own evades.

Those builds are meant to be hard to catch. Note how a guard isn’t very evade ish… They are meant to tank through errrthang. Same with necros they have minimal evasion but they do have staying power and tons of bleeds. And phantasmal defender honestly when its summoned now you know. you will have to fight that Mesmer w/o it later on in the match blinds are your friend. And who has blinds? Well kitten near everyone.
I don’t understand what is so hard about dealing with mesmers all it takes is a well timed well of darkness one of the guard leaps thief blinding powder or a ranger bird. And bam you just screwed that Mesmer over.
Evade hate would pretty much destroy the core of several builds in this game.

Evade destroys the idea of large burst damage, burst damage destroys the idea of sustained damage, sustained damage destroys the idea of effectively tanking, effectively tanking destroys the idea of fun, and fun destroys the idea of PvP in it’s current state…no wait, crap, it’s the other way around. I was on a roll there.

evades/dodges mean different things for different classes, for instance a bm hunter who gets one of his abilities evaded does not impact the outcome greatly and he/she just continues to grind away at the opponents hp in most cases. on the other hand there are builds that do tones of damage but require setting up and a final boom to work, and if dodged spells disaster but if it lands the fight can be over in a matter of seconds.

Does this mean evades are broken? or is it just a way for certain classes to survive these intense damage builds/classes whose sole purpose is to melt faces? if something like this was added I think a fair few classes would just be glass without the cannon and there spvp days would be over.

new concept: hate hate

It was better if the reworked weakness would be able to do some damage like confusion and retaliation everytime someone evades. It wouldn´t be Overpowered and it will punish more the ones that spam evades all the time.

hamsteak.1368:

new concept: hate hate

Peace already exists, it’s just underpowered.

If any profession should have this then it should be mesmer. In gw1 they were all about punishment. Different types you could build them to stop melee, casters, degen, energy denial, interupt etc it required a brain to play. here its just another skill spammer. I liked mesmer better in gw1 because of this. They have confusion but after the nerf its not worth using.

tom.7468:

If any profession should have this then it should be mesmer. In gw1 they were all about punishment. Different types you could build them to stop melee, casters, degen, energy denial, interupt etc it required a brain to play. here its just another skill spammer. I liked mesmer better in gw1 because of this. They have confusion but after the nerf its not worth using.

Mesmers are one of the main targets, they don’t need more buffs. >_>:

I don’t really care one way or the other about “evade” or endurance or invuln hate or whatever, but I will say the one class that absolutely does not need access to this kind of thing is Guards. They have more than enough for dealing with evade classes (and much else moreover) as it stands.

shimmerless.4560:

I don’t really care one way or the other about “evade” or endurance or invuln hate or whatever, but I will say the one class that absolutely does not need access to this kind of thing is Guards. They have more than enough for dealing with evade classes (and much else moreover) as it stands.

Yeah I guess I could agree with that, in a way their walls already are evade hate.

This made me think, what if “Weakness” just lowered dmg by say 30%, and the “fumble” part became its own thing or something called Clumsy that said “50% chance when evading/dodging to trip and fall.” That’d be awesome. XD

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Er, I think your idea of evade hate destroys the idea of evade.

I agree with you whole-heartedly.

To the OP: Evasion is a very legitimate part of the game. It’s not overpowered or unbalanced at all. You’re the only person I’ve ever heard of who has some dislike of it.

Tell you what. Place a personal per-character cooldown of at least 20 seconds versus hold skills (meaning the enemy can only use one hold against a player per given time alotted, regardless if hit with more than one hold by multiple enemies), and dull the damage 100-blades inflicts (the most common follow-up to any given hold), and I might consider vouching for this.

Until then, I shall continue not letting you within my personal space, lol.

Temariah.9372:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Er, I think your idea of evade hate destroys the idea of evade.

I agree with you whole-heartedly.

To the OP: Evasion is a very legitimate part of the game. It’s not overpowered or unbalanced at all. You’re the only person I’ve ever heard of who has some dislike of it.

Actually, evade-hate has been around as long as thieves and regen rangers have. Folks, we’re regen’ing for a reason. We don’t have the escapability of thieves, nor the armor to stand toe to toe with most of the heavier classes. Hence the regen and the condition builds focused on popping in and out of combat.

Archer Henchman.2534:

In guild wars 1, certain abilities had conditional effects if they were mitigated in a certain way.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Irresistible_Blow

If blocked, Irresistible blow knocks you on your kitten . Also note that the skill is on a 6 second cd, and it costs very little energy. Trying to mitigate hammer warriors damage with block was stupid (instead, you’d take advantage of their kittenty adren build up and blind them when they were about to unleash their pressure combo)

The important thing to note here is that it wasn’t so much ‘evade hate’ as it was ‘types of protection hate’.

Imagine a skill: Poisoned Medicine. Ground targeted Applies 3 stacks of bleeding for x seconds. If affected foe has regeneration, it applies 5 stacks of bleeding and a stack of poison.

Or something like: Protector’s Betrayal: Under your sustained damage level damage, if target opponent is under the effects of protection, x2 damage + 10 vuln.

Or maybe something even like: Rended: x damage. If target foe has 15 stacks of vulnerability, apply deep wound. If not, apply 10 stacks of vulnerability.

Tripwire could be redesigned such that it doesn’t activate until someone tries to evade across it, then it causes 3s kd.

Etc.

That kind of thing would be awesome, and it was one of the things I loved about GW1: CONDITIONAL EFFECTS. Unfortunately it seems like ANet don’t want to make GW2 as interesting, so instead we have to make up our own conditional effects, e.g. Fiery Rush or Whirlwind Attack into a wall to get extra damage.

I think the way evade works now, is one of the most perfect mechanics of the game,
please don’t change it. Evade by default should cause ALL skills the miss, no exception.

I think having skills go through block, was bad enough. It should’ve never happened,
but making skills hit through evade, would make matters even worse.