Guild Wars 2

MithranArkanere.8957:

Gummy.4278:

The only thing I would like to say is this:

For 5 months to the day it was like this. If it was broken, don’t let us play for 5 months with a broken system. Then all of a sudden, without any prior acknowledgement say or yeah we fixed this. Yeah some people are not gonna be able to readily accept, what has been taken for granted, that it would be like this.

It’s not a boxed game you can resell when you get tired of it, and may only have a few updates and then stay like that.
It’s an MMO. So it’s more like a ‘service’ than a ‘product’.

The game is subject to change. A warning should be both in the box and the legal documentation.

This doesn’t me that they’ll one day go bananas and change things too abruptly. Only that they both add new content and monitor existing one, and they’ll change content to fit their design if and when they the issue.

The game doesn’t have to be ‘broken’ to change things. And things being one way for a long time is no reason to keep them that way.

I understand the concept.

That was not my point. I am not saying that I care that they made the change. More like that this is the reason some people do not like the change.

Katz.5143:

@ Agent Ice – well said.

I would like to point out that really this punishes a good group more than a poor group. If one person dies, and you can’t get to them, they are left out of the fight. Sometimes for a very long time if the group can’t stop to rez them or can’t get to them. You will have to completely finish whatever is going on.

The “bad group of rez rushers” that some of you say is the reason that we need this mechanism are less punished by this because they will all die and then all rez.

I think a compromise would be that after a certain period of time the person be allowed to rez and rejoin the fun.

A timer to use the waypoint if dead would be a good thing. I’d make it something like 3-5 minutes maybe? Long enough that 90% of the time the fight will be done before then, but short enough that during the really tough fights, the dead can come back to help tip the scales.

Robotukas.1673:

Regenc.9256:

I too disagree with this suggestion. Although the battles have become more difficult, I find it much more enjoyable working together as a team. Suggestions on battle style and teqniques are shared more between players to complete areas, players learn the key mechanics the Guild Wars team has put together of skills working together in a party that really make for dynamic tactics over mindless clicking, and when an area is completed everyone feels they became a better player in some way.

The heart of this game is that we are able to feel accomplished for more then just the gear we can aquire for countless hours of playtime. Isn’t that what gaming is about in the begging?

When in your party is only experienced players. But we are talking about all players and from different country. Better think how you will attract more players to buy this game and stay longer? Because we want that GW will be for long time, not like AoEO. Read about this and look dev mistakes.

I agree, that is an issue, and there tends to be more inexperienced than experienced. Especially in dungeon runs. Maybe they can implement something for this if they ever implement the Dungeon Grouping system. If you are graded on how many times you have completed a dungeon maybe they can pair you with inexperienced players looking to learn the runs. Maybe even an entire section for experienced to help out less experienced, I’m sure there are plenty out there more than happy to help and support that.

I have played the game since day one and ever since this updated went live i have played far less and less. All the people i grouped up with don’t like it, in the main chat people don’t like it. It seems there is only a small percentage of elitism on the forums that actually like it. It’s simply no more fun to play, i play to relax and what once was a fun and enjoyable experience has now become a frustrating one. There are certain dungeons where it has become unbalanced for this feature. It’s just plain stupid now and broken in certain areas.

Logged over 1000 hours on my ranger, i don’t know if i will reach 1100 with these changes.

People saying get a good group, kick the noobs don’t get it. I don’t want to spend an hour finding a good group with good players. That’s frustrating enough with high level fractals. Dungeon running was always smooth, challenging and fun. Not anymore now.

Time to learn to play. Its not elitism it is common sense. If you’ve truely played 1000 hours and still need to rez rush to finish a dungeon you are definitely doing something wrong.
There is absolutely ZERO skill involved in rez rushing. Do you honestly beleive you’ve done anything to earn a reward if all you do is run in burst DPS, die, rez, rinse and repeat?
Everyone has some healing, everyone has some survivability skills, everyone has a dodge button, learn to find the balance between offense and defense and you will become a better player.

my guild did SE last night; we hadn’t done it since the patch. others, yes, SE, no. plus, we had a new guildie in with us, he’d never done SE at all.

got to the kudu fight, which we all HATE. 2nd golem popped up and, well? i didn’t see any bit of retuning to it at all — still just as hard as remembered. in discussing the fight in ts3, our new guildie said, “well, this means we just have to figure out how to do it, right?”

he reminded me of what i love about this game — there is no zerging. you can’t just go roflstomp most of the content. we buckled in, came up with new strategy and, while we did still go down a LOT, we also did manage, finally, to down the 2nd and 3rd golems. we felt great!

here are two things i DON’T like about dungeons, in gw2, though:

1) even when you figure out your strategy, your strategy seems to require knowing you are likely to go down several times — either have a lot of repair cannisters on you, or plan on paying a lot in repair bills. this is counter-intuitive — it just ain’t fun, guys.

2) most boss fights REQUIRE you to change from melee to ranged, in order to fight them. to me, this is a limitation in the design of the encounter, NOT of the player’s playstyle. yes, i’m very well aware that all professions are able to be built so they’re all NEARLY equally good as ranged or melee … but the truth is, the thief is simply better melee. the ranger is simply more effective ranged. so you, in designing your boss fight mechanics, have forced players to play it “your way,” again, rather than determining a way to make the fight difficult and still allow for ranged OR melee combat.

this, actually, is a trend i’ve found in most dungeons, in most games — melee combat is the red-headed stepchild of dungeoning and, frankly, again, it indicates a lack of design on the developers’ parts.

it can be done, but it can’t be done in a “fun” way, more a grit-your-teeth-and-get-through-it way. that will have repercussions.

Isende.2607:

2) most boss fights REQUIRE you to change from melee to ranged, in order to fight them. to me, this is a limitation in the design of the encounter, NOT of the player’s playstyle. yes, i’m very well aware that all professions are able to be built so they’re all NEARLY equally good as ranged or melee … but the truth is, the thief is simply better melee. the ranger is simply more effective ranged. so you, in designing your boss fight mechanics, have forced players to play it “your way,” again, rather than determining a way to make the fight difficult and still allow for ranged OR melee combat.

I don’t follow.

Granted, in the dungeon in question (SE story) yes, the terminator golem does seem to force you into range as I don’t think it’s possible to get near any part of it to hit with melee, but most dungeon foes are easier when you just melee them and actually get tougher if you try to range them (without proper protection). And there’s a lot of examples of this: (any of the AC end bosses, the nightmare vines in TA, Alpha in CoE, Lupicus in Arah, etc.)

Secondly, melee tends to hit harder and faster due to chaining basic attacks. So going range or melee is more of a preference. If you can defend against their melee attacks, survival in close is very simple but if you mess up, the boss is right there to punish you. So range can be more forgiving.

Thirdly, it’s new to me hearing that Thief is better at melee. Better how, though? A guardian has a lot more leeway in dealing with foes up close (protection, aegis, heals, armor, blocks, etc). An elementalist has other boons, conditions and mobility to let them leap in and out. Mesmers are great at melee when they engage in it, often with short burst mitigative boons and outs to escape with nary a scratch. And all those professions can provide huge team support while doing so by sharing their gifts with the rest of the group.

So explain exactly why you believe one feels forced to range content and where only a thief is ‘good’ at melee. Perhaps it’s just that I’m ignorant because I’ve never personally played the class.

i think there may’ve been a misunderstanding — my statement wasn’t that a thief is better than any other profession at melee but that, a thief, when played, has better ability to deliver damage in melee mode than in ranged mode. however, a thief’s damage and ability to take damage also depends heavily on mobility — lots of movement. many of the boss fights, especially the ones i referred to, kinda negate that into a situation where, if you’re not a heavy-armored guardian or warrior, specced to eat the damage, you cannot withstand more than a second or so of up-close-and-personal with the golems. therefore, it’s better to run that fight from ranged, with either pistols or shortbow, than it is in your (thief’s) build that inflicts heavier damage — i.e., melee.

In a dungeon, players go in as a team. So I think reviving as a team would be an excellent concept to adopt.

It should not be a string of suicide-kiting like people used to do in CoF Path 1’s before the final fight.

What I love most is how if a good strong member is defeated, the team will slowly try to revive him/her without dying themselves, instead of yelling at them to rally.

The dead member feels guilt, while the living members (who want to revive them) feel a mix of sympathy and urgency. It’s a much more social and emotional experience

This teaches players to try harder to stay alive and makes losing a team member have more impact.
I like that, the idea of losing a team member really meaning something.

Those who can’t tolerate this can play solely with guilds and friends.
Those who die too often are forced to excel or feel guilty whenever they go into a dungeon.

And I haven’t even touched upon how if you’re defeated while fighting a boss…

YOU DON’T GET ANY LOOT

DreamOfACure.4382:

In a dungeon, players go in as a team. So I think reviving as a team would be an excellent concept to adopt.

It should not be a string of suicide-kiting like people used to do in CoF Path 1’s before the final fight.

What I love most is how if a good strong member is defeated, the team will slowly try to revive him/her without dying themselves, instead of yelling at them to rally.

The dead member feels guilt, while the living members (who want to revive them) feel a mix of sympathy and urgency. It’s a much more social and emotional experience

This teaches players to try harder to stay alive and makes losing a team member have more impact.
I like that, the idea of losing a team member really meaning something.

Those who can’t tolerate this can play solely with guilds and friends.
Those who die too often are forced to excel or feel guilty whenever they go into a dungeon.

And I haven’t even touched upon how if you’re defeated while fighting a boss…

YOU DON’T GET ANY LOOT

My suggestion is to make dungeons with Difficult mode (Casual, Normal, Hard). So everyone can choose level and go to next level if it was not enough challenge. So problem is resolved. Isn’t?

Catisa.6507:

Time to learn to play. Its not elitism it is common sense. If you’ve truely played 1000 hours and still need to rez rush to finish a dungeon you are definitely doing something wrong.
There is absolutely ZERO skill involved in rez rushing. Do you honestly beleive you’ve done anything to earn a reward if all you do is run in burst DPS, die, rez, rinse and repeat?
Everyone has some healing, everyone has some survivability skills, everyone has a dodge button, learn to find the balance between offense and defense and you will become a better player.

You so funny. I think you have in brains two things: You and Computer. But that about dev? Do you support game every month? Does everyone support game every month? GW2 is F2P and they need to make profit for future. ArenNet can get profit from GW fans, PVP players, PvE players and also even from new or casual players. So better think how we can attract more players even if they don’t understand language, or first time playing GW or even they play when they have time. All this players gives profit. When You have kids I hope they do everything that you want, but not always is happening. Because we are different ;-)

Robotukas.1673:

My suggestion is to make dungeons with Difficult mode (Casual, Normal, Hard). So everyone can choose level and go to next level if it was not enough challenge. So problem is resolved. Isn’t?

Tripling the work for whoever’s working on dungeons and fracturing the population of dungeon goers into 3?

Yeah… no.

Easier for the developers and healthier for the players, to simply get everyone in the same mind set. To stop making light of dungeons, and actually try to improve their skills.

Reading the forums and seeing people complain about various aspect of dungeons and grouping in them, I started thinking of an idea last night. One complaint was of course the inability to wp back during combat and it’s affect on difficulty for casual dungeoneers. The other complaint that sort of hit home for me was the prevalence of rushing through dungeons for the rewards and the unpopularity of killing ‘trash mobs’ because of bad loot.

So what if maybe, there were special instance specific ‘skills’ one could pick up along their adventures through [insert Dungeon]? Theses special skills would be sort of random aquires from mobs between bosses and not the event mobs. Some of these would be event specific and only really useful in certain fights and after the instance is over, they all disappear.

I’d call these little things ’Adventurer’s Inspiration’ and each party member can have 3 of these and none of their own can be ‘copies’ but some can be copies between party members. Some examples, and using AC as an example because everybody has probably ran that dungeon at least once:

Catacomb Secret Knowledge: Use this to permanently disable all traps within 360 range of you. Works on AC ghost rangers’ traps as well.

Charged Essence Collector: Use ecto-undeath distillate to rez a fully defeated ally to life.

Essence Collector Repair Kit: Unique. Only 1 available per instance and across whole party. Repair a damaged or destroyed Essence Collector.

Graveling Spike Trap: Throw a trap that activates once a round to deal damage to foes that pass over it.

Detha’s Cannon Upgrades: Choose to upgrade a single cannon, giving 3 extra abilities to it.

Flame Scepter Pepper Spark Spell: Unique. One per instance across entire party. Toss a pepper spark from the Flaming Scepter into Colossus Rumblous/Howling King’s mouth to choke them. If used at the proper time, their dreadful howl will no longer do damage for the remainder of combat (this will reset if he leaves combat).

Anyway, the idea behind this is, if your group is good, they can just run dungeons like they do now and get their same reward. People that have trouble with the dungeon could resort to killing the mobs between events to get various special bonuses for the instance to help them out but there’s still limited amount of these. Lastly, those that enjoy exploring around the dungeon areas rather than just going from one event to the other aren’t completely hosed for their time spent, they get a reward of a possibly easier boss battle if they choose.

GummiBear.2756:

well surely if you had to watch the battle more than a couple minutes it should have been possible for your team to ress you? if not well either a bad team, or a VERY VERY bad mistake on your part to die at a spot they can even reach you

It wasn’t me so I’m not sure how she ended up where she did. But it was on the other side of the wall in the airship. We couldn’t get to her. Just a pain that she was missing the fun. It was that longggggg battle in the airship in Arah so she missed a lot.

DreamOfACure.4382:

Robotukas.1673:

My suggestion is to make dungeons with Difficult mode (Casual, Normal, Hard). So everyone can choose level and go to next level if it was not enough challenge. So problem is resolved. Isn’t?

Tripling the work for whoever’s working on dungeons and fracturing the population of dungeon goers into 3?

Yeah… no.

Easier for the developers and healthier for the players, to simply get everyone in the same mind set. To stop making light of dungeons, and actually try to improve their skills.

So be a hero in game. And show how to do when you go to dungeons with at least one noobs in party all the time. So for us no need Difficult level. Play more D&D and you will see why this system is more better than here about dungeons. I don’t explain deep for you, because you don’t think that you losing and that you can get.

i haven’t been in a dungeon since the update, but just by reading about it and comments so far, it seems to me that this was poorly thought out and has quite a few glitches to iron out before it has the intended outcome

other than that, pretty much what Agent Ice said

(and no, usually i’m not the one going down, i’m the one doing the reviving/resurrecting)

Katz.5143:

We had a person who accidently dodge rolled then died to a part of the airship we couldn’t reach in Arah. She had to stay there bored while four of us fought. If she hadn’t been out of reach we could of rezzed her. If she could have waypointed, she could have gotten back to having fun instead of snoozing from boredom.

There’s an interesting point: now that WP is unavailable in these circumstances, do we need a /stuck to at least move one’s corpse to a reachable point? Perhaps, to avoid exploiting /stuck to move to a more “rezable” location, the WP button shouldn’t be completely disabled but allow one to teleport, still dead, to the selected WP? If the party wipes, you’ll be no worse off in terms of running back and if the party succeeds, you’ll still need to run back from the WP, but that’s no worse than it was pre-patch.

I’m fine with the new system, the only problem is it’s next to impossible to viably revive fallen team members, once one goes down it’s only downhill from there. If you try to revive, you get killed, if you manage to get one up either they go right back down or you do the second they are up. If we had more VIABLE revive skills or speed/mechanics, the new system would work just fine and still curb rez rushing because you’d still need skill and planning to get those revives off. Just don’t misunderstand me though, I love the new system and hope it stays, it just needs some work because right now it is a new system slapped on top of an old one and doesn’t exactly mesh well.

DryHumour.1307:

Katz.5143:

We had a person who accidently dodge rolled then died to a part of the airship we couldn’t reach in Arah. She had to stay there bored while four of us fought. If she hadn’t been out of reach we could of rezzed her. If she could have waypointed, she could have gotten back to having fun instead of snoozing from boredom.

There’s an interesting point: now that WP is unavailable in these circumstances, do we need a /stuck to at least move one’s corpse to a reachable point? Perhaps, to avoid exploiting /stuck to move to a more “rezable” location, the WP button shouldn’t be completely disabled but allow one to teleport, still dead, to the selected WP? If the party wipes, you’ll be no worse off in terms of running back and if the party succeeds, you’ll still need to run back from the WP, but that’s no worse than it was pre-patch.

Yeah some of them need the corpse location adjusted, but I can say, having just done this last night, if she had payed attention to the waypoint there are small spots where your team will be out of combat between groups she could have ninja’d in to the waypoint. I know because it happened to me and a few others when we glitched off the guns and over the side. Only took a minute or two for the opportunity to open up and we were right back in the fight no problem.

simple solution for everyones problem build a shout warrior or a guardian or a banner regen warrior and stay alive. no but seriously there comes a time when you have to have support players. but when i see a 5 signet warrior join a group i initiate a kick cause he isnt bringing anything except dps to the table. and well since you cant rez rush anymore support is needed even more. thiefs they can run venom leeching and help throw out heals. everyone wants to play this dps game and it comes down to having players that help each other stay alive. now some dungeons are cake an you can just bash your way threw it but the ones people complain about. try taking a 5man group that has good composition and actually cordinate stuff. dont just gw2lfg it and pug with all out dpsers in a harder dungeon.

Jeffrey Vaughn.1793:

Combat has always disabled map travel via waypoints.

In pve that is fair cause “combat” applies to you always
But in dungeons it’s not totally waterproof
While I do like it partly:players need to help each other more and use skill if they want to succeed in dungeons(rather than respawn 100 times to overcome something,…)

The disabled wp in combat-mode can become a curse in dungeons if a rushing party leaves you behind dead while constantly engaging new foes in combat and eventually bosses sometimes(no longer is th wp disable only related to your combat)
Or like for example in the flame-orb tunnels from Cathedral of flames path 3(the one where you get instantly killed if the aoe pops while you are at it)
lets say the group ignores you and continues attacking,pulling mobs and eventually the boss…you just lay there being instantly defeated,feeling all useless…
And angry at the group for abandoning you and being so reckless not to give you a chance to even waypoint and try over at that earlier point were you actually failed
Well,with such a group, with no team spirit, “leave party” is the best thing to do(which I did in that situation)

But you see,its just that you get punished really hard sometimes with this system in place with no chance to contribute nor get drops (for mistakes that are no longer yours)
Because they decided not to wait for you and just continue engaging new combat you are no longer part of,thus keeping you from possible drops for that 1 mistake you made earlier,which is no longer relevant to the combat the groups keeps engaging.(its another battle and you are left out)
Doubt you would get dungeon reward too if you don’t get the chance to contribute at the boss because you got instantly killed at a “puzzle” part in the dungeon earlier.
It would be the same like if in pve you party up with someone on that map,you die at the other side of the map but cant waypoint because the other member is engaging combat somewhere far south for a map event that you are not part of

You just get no chance in some situation with the “disabled waypoint in combat mode while in dungeons” ,and get punished for instant dead/combat you are no longer part of too
That is the main difference with it in pve (you only can waypoint if you are out combat mode(your combat) or you are defeated)and why it needs some adjustments(I dont say its bad to have"unable to wp during combat" in dungeons but you could get punished for other battles your party engages after the actual defeat reason of your own)

Perhaps a system when you are far behind the waypoint will become available again
Or a reckless state on party members leaving someone behind.That the waypoint costs get transfered to them for abandoning a party member.This encourages to leave no one behind like that.And some sort of solace for the abandoned player that gets no reward for the other combat the group keeps engaging

Tipsy.5802:

Jeffrey Vaughn.1793:

Combat has always disabled map travel via waypoints.

In pve that is fair cause “combat” applies to you always
But in dungeons it’s not totally waterproof
While I do like it partly:players need to help each other more and use skill if they want to succeed in dungeons(rather than respawn 100 times to overcome something,…)

The disabled wp in combat-mode can become a curse in dungeons if a rushing party leaves you behind dead while constantly engaging new foes in combat and eventually bosses sometimes(no longer is th wp disable only related to your combat)
Or like for example in the flame-orb tunnels from Cathedral of flames path 3(the one where you get instantly killed if the aoe pops while you are at it)
lets say the group ignores you and continues attacking,pulling mobs and eventually the boss…you just lay there being instantly defeated,feeling all useless…
And angry at the group for abandoning you and being so reckless not to give you a chance to even waypoint and try over at that earlier point were you actually failed
Well,with such a group, with no team spirit, “leave party” is the best thing to do(which I did in that situation)

But you see,its just that you get punished really hard sometimes with this system in place with no chance to contribute nor get drops (for mistakes that are no longer yours)
Because they decided not to wait for you and just continue engaging new combat you are no longer part of,thus keeping you from possible drops for that 1 mistake you made earlier,which is no longer relevant to the combat the groups keeps engaging.(its another battle and you are left out)
Doubt you would get dungeon reward too if you don’t get the chance to contribute at the boss because you got instantly killed at a “puzzle” part in the dungeon earlier.
It would be the same like if in pve you party up with someone on that map,you die at the other side of the map but cant waypoint because the other member is engaging combat somewhere far south for a map event that you are not part of

You just get no chance in some situation with the “disabled waypoint in combat mode while in dungeons” ,and get punished for instant dead/combat you are no longer part of too
That is the main difference with it in pve (you only can waypoint if you are out combat mode(your combat) or you are defeated)and why it needs some adjustments(I dont say its bad to have"unable to wp during combat" in dungeons but you could get punished for other battles your party engages after the actual defeat reason of your own)

Perhaps a system when you are far behind the waypoint will become available again
Or a reckless state on party members leaving someone behind.That the waypoint costs get transfered to them for abandoning a party member.This encourages to leave no one behind like that.And some sort of solace for the abandoned player that gets no reward for the other combat the group keeps engaging

I agree with most opinion. It should some way how to improve dungeon system and is better to make for hardcore players and for casual players.

Gee, I guess this is a bump as everyone seems to have talked it all out almost two weeks ago, but since I go on dungeon adventures seldom (so far anyway —- so much to do…) I just encountered the “new” no rez-rushing system.

I have played GW and GW2 starting with betas in both (not a noob but far from considering myself an excellent player) and have come to trust and relie upon ANet’s decisions on gameplay. This new system fits into that aura. Having said that and having run into a couple of frustrating circumstances last weekend, I have a couple of suggestions for consideration.

One situation was the last boss fight (that flame legion dungeon) where I got booted into the lava early into the fight, losing over 7000 health/pulse. There was no way for a party member to even get to me to rez. In spots such as those could the devs not develop (down the road sometime) some sort of “fun” way of drifting a dead member to an accessible spot?

In another where I also got killed early in the last boss fight (I know, you see a trend here) I spent quite a bit of time staring at the dirt instead of the fight fun. Eventually, I was rezzed and we went on to kill the dang thing. The suggestion is this: an observer system such as GW had when you were in a team and dead you had the option of viewing the fight “through the eyes” of one of your live teammates until you were rezzed. Still feel bad about not contributing to the battle but having some fun watching the action.