Guild Wars 2

Grimm.8236:

Just because GW2 takes some aspects from WoW, does not make it a clone you moronic infant.

I stopped reading there. You’re clearly not worth my time.

Not sure if people read the moderator. Stop bringing up WoW. It isn’t constructive to this thread in any way. As for those apposed of the “Gear treadmill” raids bring, we know AreaNet wouldn’t make that the reward for “raids”. It would be some currency like tokens from dungeons or karma which you collect to get skins. With the dozens of new legendaries appearing in LA (Yes I said dozens) I’m sure people would welcome new skins to diferentiate themselves from the others takin their style. Never played a “raid” type instance but from how people described them, it could be done well with AreaNet if not better. Dynamic events are fun and are the open world “raid” some are looking for but for the most part, there is no orgnization. Dungeons come down to cordination and quick responses from its participants so expanding on this to a 10-15 man party would be really interesting to try out. Not saying it would be flawless from the start, it may need to be shut down for weeks to tweak things here and there but I’m positive AreaNet would approach “raids” without goin mainstream MMO.

castlemanic.3198:

Taemek.1602:

Further content could be the gate, if it was something as trivial as skins, I doubt no one would do it. It could be a gate for future skill points, who knows, the possibilities of reasoning behind raid content is truely endless. Gear grinds are a lazy mans tool to justify it.

Raid content has to serve a purpose or it is irrelevant.

Why does there need to be gates? There doesnt! simple as that. We already have a form of raiding, those large scale events, there doesnt need to be more of that in an instanced environment.

The part where you have to actively participate in it, it isn’t required and you are missing the point here because I doubt you played MMORPG’s in their prime 15 – 20 years ago.

Do me a favour and use your definition of what community means to you, not the text book dictionary version of it. Tell us what it is.

You’re right, seeing as i wasn’t even alive 21 years ago. However, that’s irrelevant seeing as gaming culture as a whole is shifting towards allowing players to have lives if they so desire. Now a days, there is more emphasis on having fun than having a second job in an online world (probably the only benefit of the gaming industry going truly commercial), which is essentially what you’re asking for if everyone must be required to do raids on this specific day of the week during these specific hours, no excuses (exaggeration for effect).

A manner that you’re right about is that there are less and less people who are accepting others the way communities used to. If you don’t have this achievement, you’re dirt, and I’m glad that GW2 is atleast trying to move away from that mentality.

And I DID use my definition. It happens to coincide with the dictionary term of it, and why should it not?

You seem to be slightly misinformed, you see, not much has changed in the past 20 years in regards to how we spend our time. We all had social lives back then, kids, mortages, responsibilities and we still have that now today, however, there wasn’t many MMORPG’s on the market which allowed us to spend years achieving what people, like yourself, have come to expect in a few short months.

This is where the community aspect of it has been damaged and what you percieve as fun has come at a price to the industry in regards to the community.

Again, the younger generation truely have no concept of this, the truth is simply this, with how the market is today, if you aren’t playing this game, you are playing another, if you aren’t playing that game, you are playing another and it goes on and on. So while the games are simply casual in nature today, you churn through more of them with little requirement to be part of any real community in the name of fun.

Sorry, but I fail to see the fun in that.

Vlaxitov.5693:

Taemek.1602:

Start thinking creatively……this is the 21st century, not the 90’s.

This “creative thinking” you’re talking about has really just ended up being codeword for dumbed down. You seem to draw the assertion that you’re an oldschool mmo player and if thats so, then you should know that the makers of these games have been steadily simplifying them in attempt to sell more of their product.

So a big hoorah for the 21st century and mmo makers who think they can appeal to the original fanbase and soccer moms at the same time. A big hoorah for one size fits all gaming. Lets all celebrate this era of mediocracy in video games and tell anyone who doesen’t like it that they need to “start thinking creatively.”

When it comes to the raiding I don’t see this game supporting anything higher than a ten man dungeon and it would still be fun. Anything bigger than a ten man and the mechanics of this game would make such a raid either really frustrating or about as meaningful as the dragon fight zergs.

You won’t get an argument from me in how this has damaged the MMORPG industry today.

I think, that if a game was to try and turn the tides in regards to longevity, creativity and a community aspect again that we would have a winner.

The downfall is not so much the casual nature, it sure as hell part of it, but what also plays a large part of it is, the simple fact that game designers have a hard time keeping up releasing content to keep people interested. Even though people like to think that the majority of the player base is casual in nature, the truth is, yet again, if they aren;t playing this game, they are playing another. Some people have several games on the go but might only play them all for a few hours per week which equals 20 – 30 hours per week across several games.

So even though people like to think they play casually, they still eventually run out of content and look else where or even just quit outright claiming they have seen it all before. This is where most companies begin thier buy back schemes, you know, free play time, special items etc if you come back and play etc etc to try and regain those players.

I think you and I both know where the industry is headed, the sad thing is, alot of other people don’t, but unless 20+ million people just stopped paying/playing MMORPG’s tomorrow, nothing will change and companies will keep abusing this cookie cutter template for a quick buck.

It has been said several times here, if you want raid go WoW. I rather see more people doing meta’s and temples event, etc. I like GW2 because it is going up a different path and I’d like to give them a chance to build something new in MMO’s. More content? Well, get online this weekend LOST SHORES!

Rewards for raids don’t even have to be gear/skins. The XP/Karma/Money rewards that go with DE’s in the open world seem to cater to nearly everyone that does them.

IMO, if Arenanet is going to add raids, they need to make sure that people will do them for the right reasons: To have fun by attempting legitimately challenging content as a team, not for an obligatory gear treadmill.

So what should raids have that would accomplish that task?
-Tough encounters. Even if massive whining ensues over their difficulty, raids should be the final step in the difficulty ladder for the game.

-Mostly Currency rewards. No i don’t mean emblems and badges from that other MMO, i mean Money, XP, Karma, and crafting mats. This way, there will be adequate compensation for overcoming the challenges, but people won’t feel obligated to do the content just for the phat lewts. Make a kitten cool armor skin or something else cosmetic for doing the raid, but don’t overdo it or else people will start to feel obligated. Runes are also fine, as long as they are exotic tier only.

You shouldn’t make any content obligatory, for that matter, or else the game starts to feel like a job. People should WANT to do something because it sounds fun/challenging.

-Raids should feel like raids, not the 100-floor tower of bosses. I think the Temples are the best example of what a raid should be, save the fact that they are open world. You can never expect to hold a temple indefinitely, simply move in and take what you can from it for a brief moment.

-Reward accomplishment in raids more dynamically, similar to the bronze/silver/gold contribution medals in place already. For example, say the first encounter is “X person is trying to close the side gate, so to stall for time they send a legendary abomination out to hold you off.” If you beat the abomination fast enough, you should be able to run through the side gate and acquire a different path through the raid with more possible rewards than you would if you had let the gate close. Or you could take a third option and use an Asuran mind control device or something to take the abomination and barge your way through a third gate. Compare that to “either you kill the boss or you don’t”, and you have a lot of possibilities for raids, depending on what the group is capable of/feels like doing.

Ephesus.7291:

It has been said several times here, if you want raid go WoW. I rather see more people doing meta’s and temples event, etc. I like GW2 because it is going up a different path and I’d like to give them a chance to build something new in MMO’s. More content? Well, get online this weekend LOST SHORES!

Unless that content patch has enough content to tie people over until the next content patch, people will start to look else where and just to calrify, WoW was not the only game to have raiding…………everytime someone mentions WoW, a little peice of me dies inside.

Sorry, but thats about how simple it is.

MasterGeese.4756:

Rewards for raids don’t even have to be gear/skins. The XP/Karma/Money rewards that go with DE’s in the open world seem to cater to nearly everyone that does them.

IMO, if Arenanet is going to add raids, they need to make sure that people will do them for the right reasons: To have fun by attempting legitimately challenging content as a team, not for an obligatory gear treadmill.

So what should raids have that would accomplish that task?
-Tough encounters. Even if massive whining ensues over their difficulty, raids should be the final step in the difficulty ladder for the game.

-Mostly Currency rewards. No i don’t mean emblems and badges from that other MMO, i mean Money, XP, Karma, and crafting mats. This way, there will be adequate compensation for overcoming the challenges, but people won’t feel obligated to do the content just for the phat lewts. Make a kitten cool armor skin or something else cosmetic for doing the raid, but don’t overdo it or else people will start to feel obligated. Runes are also fine, as long as they are exotic tier only.

You shouldn’t make any content obligatory, for that matter, or else the game starts to feel like a job. People should WANT to do something because it sounds fun/challenging.

-Raids should feel like raids, not the 100-floor tower of bosses. I think the Temples are the best example of what a raid should be, save the fact that they are open world. You can never expect to hold a temple indefinitely, simply move in and take what you can from it for a brief moment.

-Reward accomplishment in raids more dynamically, similar to the bronze/silver/gold contribution medals in place already. For example, say the first encounter is “X person is trying to close the side gate, so to stall for time they send a legendary abomination out to hold you off.” If you beat the abomination fast enough, you should be able to run through the side gate and acquire a different path through the raid with more possible rewards than you would if you had let the gate close. Or you could take a third option and use an Asuran mind control device or something to take the abomination and barge your way through a third gate. Compare that to “either you kill the boss or you don’t”, and you have a lot of possibilities for raids, depending on what the group is capable of/feels like doing.

This is exactly what I was refering too in regards to being creative.

5 stars for this guy.

Lutharr.1035

DBM made WoW raids evolve which is a quote from Blizzard themselves. They knew it was there so had to incorperate it or have trivialised content. Just saying its down to number is utter BS. Every MMO has numbers involved just as GW2 has (u have noticed those numbers flash up i assume) so just breaking it down like that just shows either ignorance or blind hate.

And you’ll notice how I implied it dumbs things down which is exactly how WoW is evolving to amass more subscriptions and exactly what we were talking about in terms of difficulty. That game uses instant-death because there isn’t any. If things don’t die before the time limit, you do instead. That is the difficulty. GW2 does difficulty differently and I can’t see a reason for them not to apply the dungeon difficulty curve to the raids which is a good thing.

So again, all for small “raid” scenarios. I especially like the idea of picking bosses to affect the outcome. Right up this game’s alley.

Also, everything MasterGeese.4756 said.

Taemek.1602:

You seem to be slightly misinformed, you see, not much has changed in the past 20 years in regards to how we spend our time. We all had social lives back then, kids, mortages, responsibilities and we still have that now today, however, there wasn’t many MMORPG’s on the market which allowed us to spend years achieving what people, like yourself, have come to expect in a few short months.

This is where the community aspect of it has been damaged and what you percieve as fun has come at a price to the industry in regards to the community.

Again, the younger generation truely have no concept of this, the truth is simply this, with how the market is today, if you aren’t playing this game, you are playing another, if you aren’t playing that game, you are playing another and it goes on and on. So while the games are simply casual in nature today, you churn through more of them with little requirement to be part of any real community in the name of fun.

Sorry, but I fail to see the fun in that.

So you’re disagreeing with content being made for people to churn to, and you want things to be achieved in years again? What I view as fun, you don’t find fun, and what you find fun, I don’t view as fun. People have different tastes and the industry as a whole is shifting towards a more casual player base as you yourself have noted.

I assume you purely mean online games, or atleast games that allow online interaction, and while you may find the community aspect lacking, a lot of people aren’t, as they themselves show the initiative to make those communities last and stand the test of time. More people now a days are finding that they want more short term fun instead of taking years to get a reward. I don’t think that purely the playerbase or the industry is to blame, but society as a whole. I’ve spoken with several people many years my age and they always take about the calmer, slower based society that they were used to, up to even 10 years ago. With the advancement of technology as fast paced as it is, and almost every industry turning towards serving a larger number of customers, life is fast, there aren’t enough hours in the day to accomplish all the things that we want or even need to do anymore, and the same has come to be expected from video games.

The majority of gamers now a days want to be able to enjoy quick content that is fun to them without it having to drag on for what may be years. Maybe you find that fun, and that’s fine, but the majority of gamers don’t, as industry standards show. Also what seems to be affecting the industry is the large movement from computers to consoles (and then ironically adding computer features) that are dominating the market. While most Xbox games can be expected to be found on PCs, games on other consoles practically stay there, and you’re right, that’s probably killing the community aspect that you love.

While I can understand where you’re coming from, different people value different things in games. For me, being a mainly RPG player, i delve into the story aspect of things, whether it takes a long or short time to go through, getting through the story itself is the thing that matters most to me in RPGs. For you, it’s community.

I mean this sincerely, why don’t you try to find one of those stable communities? While guilds have little meaning that they did in other MMOs, im sure there are GW2 communities that you’d absolutely love to join.

MasterGeese.4756:

stuff

What you’re saying goes well, but a couple of things still stand out:

While yes, making raids non-obligatory is a great step forward, that’s still content that most players won’t see.

As for completely dynamic raids, i can only say that it would be a pleasurable dream come true, but i doubt that ArenaNet would dedicate the time needed for truly dynamic raids when there are so many other facets of the game that need attention currently. I can probably see this happening in a couple of years, and this kind of content would be perfect for an expansion that far in the future, but definitely in the short run i think Anet has enough on their plate.

good suggestions none the less.

Just as a note for people who seem to forget this: It’s entirely possible to disagree and not be rude or childish. Calm down lol.

I don’t necessarily think I’d want to see massive 20+ person “raids” at all. But adding a few more people (Even if we go back to GW1 standards of 8/12 being the norm) could be fun. I do kind of miss Fissue of Woe, Underworld, The Deep, etc.

It’s always nice to feel like a bamf because you solo’d some big bad dude, it’s also really nice to feel awesome because you worked together with a handful of friends to do the same thing, on a larger scale. Coordination can be a ton of fun here with combo fields and all that. There’d definitely be potential, I think.

Granted, does that mean I’m expecting to see something like that? Ehh, probably not.

castlemanic.3198:

So you’re disagreeing with content being made for people to churn to, and you want things to be achieved in years again? What I view as fun, you don’t find fun, and what you find fun, I don’t view as fun. People have different tastes and the industry as a whole is shifting towards a more casual player base as you yourself have noted.

“Casual” being codeword for dumbed down socialist gaming where everyone gets their fair share and their participation trophy. You’re right, it has shifted to that and its clearly not sustainable with the proof of being that almost all newer mmos have crashed & burned by any measurable standard over the last few years.

You say different strokes for different folks but it seems to me that most game makers have been trying to herd us into one size fits all gaming for a long time now. They think that people with a higher levels of hand eye coordination, or an eye for detail, or a brain for strategy will somehow find a way to enjoy the same game that someone who would be just as happy with a chatroom that plays cartoons enjoys. Its never going to happen.

In game/music comparison terms, I want to listen to Squarepusher but most game makers dare not put anything less shallow than Katy Perry on the shelves anymore.

Big raids in this game would be a ridiculas zergfest, not fun nor challenging. I do think you could probably get away with a 10 man, but anymore than that would be lulz just like the dragon fights are. I also give Anet alot of credit for making this game as well as they did considering their stance against “gated content.”

Vlaxitov.5693:

castlemanic.3198:

So you’re disagreeing with content being made for people to churn to, and you want things to be achieved in years again? What I view as fun, you don’t find fun, and what you find fun, I don’t view as fun. People have different tastes and the industry as a whole is shifting towards a more casual player base as you yourself have noted.

Big raids in this game would be a ridiculas zergfest, not fun nor challenging. I do think you could probably get away with a 10 man, but anymore than that would be lulz just like the dragon fights are. I also give Anet alot of credit for making this game as well as they did considering their stance against “gated content.”

Your kind of contridicting yourself a bit. You give credit to AreaNet for making this game as well as they did and yet say that adding raids wouldn’t be challenging or fun. Whose to say they would make raids that way? They have their own flavour on adding content and I’m sure they would work for a long time on an idea like this (Assuming it was to be added) to ensure it was rewarding, yet not an obligation along with being not just something to do, something you WANT to do.

NinjaEd.3946:

Vlaxitov.5693:

castlemanic.3198:

So you’re disagreeing with content being made for people to churn to, and you want things to be achieved in years again? What I view as fun, you don’t find fun, and what you find fun, I don’t view as fun. People have different tastes and the industry as a whole is shifting towards a more casual player base as you yourself have noted.

Big raids in this game would be a ridiculas zergfest, not fun nor challenging. I do think you could probably get away with a 10 man, but anymore than that would be lulz just like the dragon fights are. I also give Anet alot of credit for making this game as well as they did considering their stance against “gated content.”

Your kind of contridicting yourself a bit. You give credit to AreaNet for making this game as well as they did and yet say that adding raids wouldn’t be challenging or fun.

No, I said big raids wouldn’t be fun that anything over a 10 man would end up the same kind of zergfest we see with dragon fights. Thats what I said exactly that anyone could read to confirm. I’m not contradicting myself rather than you’re either misunderstanding or misconstruing what I’ve said.

NinjaEd.3946:

Whose to say they would make raids that way? They have their own flavour on adding content and I’m sure they would work for a long time on an idea like this (Assuming it was to be added) to ensure it was rewarding, yet not an obligation along with being not just something to do, something you WANT to do.

I never said they should even make raids at all. I only said that they do make raids, they probably shouldn’t try to make raids bigger than a ten man due to the nature of this game’s mechanics. You’re putting words in my mouth, then trying to argue with me about things I agree with you on.

For those that feel the need for large scale coordinated content, have you considered getting your feet wet in WvW? I came from PvE raiding games like EQ2, WoW, Rift and I am finding WvW to be far superior to PvE raiding because of the human factor. This is only my opinion obviously but fighting against human opponents and adapting strategies to match or counter is so much more interesting and challenging and it has all the great aspects of raiding like:

• noobs standing in fire
• avoiding ground targeted AoE poo
• collecting tokens to spend on gear
• getting killed in two seconds when you fail to react (whether it be standing in fire or shooting at a reflect shield)
• trying to coordinate a large group of people to accomplish a common goal
• thieves dying when they fail at their uber move in melee

It’s just like raiding but your enemy isn’t scripted AI and theres no gear treadmill or entry barrier.

My god the fanbase of this game is so obnoxious and idiotic. go back to WoW god kitten that makes me so mad

castlemanic.3198:

I mean this sincerely, why don’t you try to find one of those stable communities? While guilds have little meaning that they did in other MMOs, im sure there are GW2 communities that you’d absolutely love to join.

You have hit the nail on every aspect of this post in regards to why, MMORPG’s are simply not real MMORPG’s anymore today. The communities I would love to join simply do not exsist, hence why I lead a guild of my own and have so for over a decade now. The casual nature of these games even hurts guild communities more then one would think, but we won’t go there just yet.

As we have discussed in other threads, console based RPG’s are starting to drive the MMMORPG market and there is very little left to be desired about how a MMORPG caters to a community of people.

You seem to be lacking the ability how ever to understand the concept of playing for years. While alot of people have no issues playing for years, companies have trouble retaining a strong and healthy player base for years due to the nature that even casual gamers themselves churn through content/games. People will stay and play a game that appeals to them and keeps them driven to churn out the content if there is constant content updates.

From here, issues arise. If it is fluffly based content released with no means on upgrading your character, most people start to quit. I personally do not believe that this game will retain a healthy player base if the constant progression is nothing more then skins.

I have level’d up four level 80’s now, working on a 5th (kind of). I play on a High/Full populated server. The majority of the population seems to have hit the level 80 range, with zones lower in level now being barren waste lands with almost no one in sight. Most casual based players have 1 maybe 2 level 80’s at this point and if you are a frequent forum bandit you will notice that increase in content needed posts are increasing.

Put simply, if Lost Shores does not house some meaningful and beneficial form of character advancement, then you will start to see a dip in population numbers over the next 3 months.

I cannot and will not speak on behalf of Anet in regards to what they have coming out or thier plans for the future, but after watching the gaming community over many games now over the past 15 – 20 years, I know this much, if a game starts to bleed players within the first 12 months, it is very hard to gain them back. But as you have pointed out and many others including myself, this is the casual nature of gaming today. People would rather churn out titles/games today with a quick fix of almost what seems to be instant gratification then spend a good few years playing a great game, with great people = great community.

Also one last thing, do not mistake old school gamers for not understanding the market today, we understand it all too well. What we believe players like yourself are missing, is a truely epic gaming experience. Epic online gaming experiences have been watered down by this cookie cutter sandbox style based MMORPG industry they keep on milking today, I can’t help you understand what I am talking about here, because it was something you had to experience. Zones that were so big they felt like they had no ending, dungeons so diverse and so thick with lore that you could literally get lost in, quests that you had to actually had to think your way through instead of following the yellow-brick-road, and the greatness goes on and on.

In my honest opinion, even if casual gamers today who have never experiened an old school feel in MMORPG gaming was to feel that today, you would be gob smacked. Alas, new generation gamers seem to be stuck in the mind set that old school gamers were hermit basement dwelling no-lifers living with thier parents. This to me is sad, because on the contary, old school gaming was not like that at all, until the industry started to shift into what we see gaming as today and allowed children to start playing them. We won’t go there though.

Why does the only character advancement people can conceive is seeing bigger numbers on their screen I just don’t get it…
And furthermore, why do those big numbers MUST be achieved doing large group stuff

If raids were added to GW2 they would be nothing like WoW, just as 5 mans aren’t like WoW. I think people quoting WoW on both sides seem to ignore this.

Pros:
Will allow guild progression – one of the biggest things raids do is help guilds.
Add another element to dungeons

Cons:
Our combat system doesn’t support it. Sorry it just doesn’t support a highly usable raid system. Raids in WoW works with 25-40 people because the devs themselves know who does what <Tank/Heal/DPS> without this it would be nearly impossible to create a good “raid” without just taking a 5 man boss and upping damage/hp/tossing more adds.

Combo fields – They currently are VERY limited. Even with 5 people it acts wonky. It wouldn’t handle 25 people tossing combo fields all over the place

The actual game engine – Lets be real here. You can’t even turn off all non-required spells effects. with 25 people tossing everything they have it will look horrible. Let alone rendering the players/crashing.

So I am against a raid instance – however

An open world dungeon with the difficult of explore mode would be nice. Have it set up like Temple of Veeshan from Everquest (which could house up to three raids) by using a VERY large zone and multiple “wings” for a massive set of players to go through. Set it up to use DE’s/Meta Events (similar to Temple) that push the players back and forth between the dungeon mobs and NPC allies. Add respawns + one WP back at the ent (to prevent zerging) to add difficulty and I think that is a bit better.

To many people in other games do nothing instanced raids all everyday.

If instance raids was in this game, many players would not be contributing to DE"s and Meta events.

Onshidesigns.1069:

To many people in other games do nothing instanced raids all everyday.

If instance raids was in this game, many players would not be contributing to DE"s and Meta events.

You could always join a guild who is doing DE’s, Meta and Raid content.

Dispite what many try and say, guilds do you know, cater to peoples needs and wants.