Guild Wars 2

This has been discussed ad nauseum with the developers but it’s time to revisit this.

Rezzing defeated players in the middle of combat, is detrimental to skillful play. I recently recorded a video of me 1v5:

http://youtu.be/97iwxawOemo

Where I kept downing people, and they could keep rezzing the defeated person. The advantage goes to the zerg. Not because of skill, but because of numbers. While I know the developers are afraid of changing the defeated state because of it’s pve implications, shouldn’t defeat… matter? If people are defeated make them run back. Make it a real consequence.

would rather have them remove downed state or make them all equal

Ernt. See, you had time warp on your bar and didn’t use it for that first stomp. Your stomp was halfway complete, that means you could have done it different and got the stomp completed. I think with the NPCs involved you were giving them chances to rez off the NPCs dying. Maybe you should AOE less lol

Do I think one person should be able to beat 5 normally? No.

The downed state is fine. It gives us a rollercoaster that is needed in games.

psirca.9452:

Ernt. See, you had time warp on your bar and didn’t use it for that first stomp. Your stomp was halfway complete, that means you could have done it different and got the stomp completed. I think with the NPCs involved you were giving them chances to rez off the NPCs dying. Maybe you should AOE less lol

Do I think one person should be able to beat 5 normally? No.

The downed state is fine. It gives us a rollercoaster that is needed in games.

Downed is fine, it’s the defeated state I have a problem with. You should not be able to rez someone from defeated if you’re in combat.

I wish they’d remove resurrecting defeated players AND downed state, but sadly, that would only fly for ‘hardcore’ servers and GW2 is decidedly not a hardcore game. :/

No. Leave it all as is.

I can see what you are saying, it’s pretty annoying to win and still be beaten. At the same time though, during sieges and such, it would be pretty annoying to have to run all the way across the map everytime an AoE takes you out if you have 30 teammates that can revive you.

I’d rather see them instead of making it so you can’t revive while in combat, they should just make it so anytime you take damage, it stops you from reviving… this would make the most sense to me. I mean, it must be pretty hard to doctor your teammate while you are lit on fire or getting stabbed in the back or shot in the head with an arrow…

Maybe even a short debuff when you are interrupted while reviving would be feasible. If you take damage while reviving someone, it interrupts it, and gives you a 5-10 second cooldown before you can revive again.
You know, they could always just make it so if you are reviving, it makes you super vulnerable. Say, for instance, if you attack someone who is sitting there reviving someone, it’s automatic crits every hit, or you do 5x more damage or something against them because they are an easy target.

There’s really several things they could do without disabling it altogether.

I agree with the OP,

currently groups offer too much safety from bad play in PvP. “Oh my mate just died? Let me just click him for 3 seconds and we’re good again”.

Currently PvP in GW2 is like PvP where everyone has a Battlerezz.

2 changes would address most issues I have with the downed-state.

1. Direct Damage should interrupt the revive process from downed-state. This would allow anyone to interrupt a revive, not just those with a knock-back, stun or daze currently at hand. Considering how quickly you can revive, this is really a necessary change.

2. Resurrections (aka. reviving dead players) should only be possible out of combat. This makes it possible to actually destroy zergs rather than battles continuing ad nauseum.

That’s actually a great idea, stop people from ressing (fully) dead players when in combat. This isn’t perfect, but it would be a good step in the right direction

I agree something has to be done. Rewarding bad play isn’t the way to go, you shouldn’t win some engagements because you have sheer numbers.

Reduce the stomp time by another 2 seconds and reevaluate. Noone should be stronger in the downed state than they are alive, some classes seem to take forever to “kill” still after they are downed.

Downed state is something more useful in sPvP, in world vs world is becomes a “rally off the bunny kill” fest. There’s too many NPCs in WvW to not rally during a fight and the more people in an engagement the more mass rallying there is.

Dee Jay.2460:

1. Direct Damage should interrupt the revive process from downed-state. This would allow anyone to interrupt a revive, not just those with a knock-back, stun or daze currently at hand. Considering how quickly you can revive, this is really a necessary change.

2. Resurrections (aka. reviving dead players) should only be possible out of combat. This makes it possible to actually destroy zergs rather than battles continuing ad nauseum.

I agree with this post 100%
I think it’s ridiculous how fast you can revive a downed teammate.

Example: yesterday I was defending a supply camp from about 3 invaders… I downed two of them and they were able to just pop back up because of the third (and then the third and second) continuously reviving them.
I downed one of them a few times, but it got me no where seeing as how they were basically invincible in terms of actually dying.

TL;DR Odd battles are nearly impossible to win when you’re the underdog due to reviving in combat.

Dee Jay.2460:

I agree with the OP,

currently groups offer too much safety from bad play in PvP. “Oh my mate just died? Let me just click him for 3 seconds and we’re good again”.

Currently PvP in GW2 is like PvP where everyone has a Battlerezz.

2 changes would address most issues I have with the downed-state.

1. Direct Damage should interrupt the revive process from downed-state. This would allow anyone to interrupt a revive, not just those with a knock-back, stun or daze currently at hand. Considering how quickly you can revive, this is really a necessary change.

2. Resurrections (aka. reviving dead players) should only be possible out of combat. This makes it possible to actually destroy zergs rather than battles continuing ad nauseum.

Direct damage meaning single target, or including AE damage? I think the latter is a great idea, it allows you to drop your AE on top of a downed player, thus preventing them from getting revived and allowing you to finish them.

Edit: How about modifying the downed penalty for WvW? After your first down if you’re downed again within the next, say, 2 minutes, you’re dead. And when you’re revived from down, you should revive with less health than half. Half is a ton for some people.

This idea has merit.

Also like the idea of harsher penalties for being revived repeatedly.

I dislike the downed state in WvW because it works in favor of the zerg, and not skilled play.

It compounds issue with the AoE cap, and it’s at times silly that downed players do more damage or have greater survivability downed than alive.

With the food buff some warriors run around with over 100k downed health. Meaning you need to stomp to finish them, which is next to impossible when fighting a zerg. Stomps take to long even with quickness.

While I do not think the downed state should be removed the HP in the downed state and the buffs for downed state health need to be reduced.

Downed state health should be the same as your normal HP.

Like many i know gw 2 is not the super hardcore L33t skill game but rigth now the downed is a badly implemented skill cap,we all like the thrill to finish the kill or rally yourselfs but in the end its just favor the numbers and make any kamikaze tatic invalid because dont matter if you downed 10 player the time you die… Ta-da they rise again.

Dee Jay.2460:

I agree with the OP,

2 changes would address most issues I have with the downed-state.

1. Direct Damage should interrupt the revive process from downed-state. This would allow anyone to interrupt a revive, not just those with a knock-back, stun or daze currently at hand. Considering how quickly you can revive, this is really a necessary change.

2. Resurrections (aka. reviving dead players) should only be possible out of combat. This makes it possible to actually destroy zergs rather than battles continuing ad nauseum.

This are good sugestions and a good start.

To our OP:
I think you are looking at this all wrong and arguing that coming back alive is somehow bad. The downed state isn’t guarantee for anything, death or resurrection. It is simply a new stopgap iteration to prevent adding the same old fluff elements from other traditional MMOs and having them taking more primary roles in PvP (i.e. dedicated insta rezzers, coordinated aoe stackers, unmitigated cc/elite bombers, endless front line tank walls, etc…). Frankly I like not seeing the same traditional tactics & compositions and I also like the comfort this down state provides knowing that although every fight must end if you and your people happen to keep your cool it can possibly make a turn around in your favor.

I think you should earn all of your kills and this downed state is a great mediator of TTK to help assure this. Likewise, if you happen to be on the receiving end and pop back up I see it as a justified bonus to you keeping a level head (or perhaps your enemy’s lack of diligence). Your video is a good example as it shows in that going against 5 rookies you were still well out manned and their superiors numbers made it harder for you to earn their deaths as I think it ought to be.

Although, I will concede that adjusting the downed state to have some sort of diminishing returns to prevent those near endless sort of stalemates would only help to add to the dynamics of both attacking and defending.

I agree that a defeated (not downed) player should be teleported to their starting waypoint upon ‘death’. As an added benefit we’d also get rid of all the corpse-scouting.

So keep downed and apply a forced teleport to waypoint upon defeat.

I like downed. I might take issue with a few of the downed state powers, but overall it is a good mechanic.

Steely Phil.3952:

I like downed. I might take issue with a few of the downed state powers, but overall it is a good mechanic.

It’s grown on me. I didn’t like it at first, but have gotten used to it. I’ve seen fights turn because one person, ONE, decided to start rezing downed and dead players in the middle of a fight. Since there is a lack of healing in this game, imagine a guardian being downed, then rezzed and popping off the full heal elite skill. That can and will turn the tide in some battles. (Yes as a front line guardian I have done this and seen this done to my team.)

I like the downed mechanic but I think it needs some adjustment.

My biggest issue is one player can revive a downed player faster than the stomp animation. That seems really broken.

Large groups resurrecting dead players in combat is also pretty bad, it seems too punitive to defenders. Limiting res’s to out of combat only is probably too much, but I’d like to see harsh diminishing returns on multiple res’ers, especially in combat.

Ok a lot of you in this thread are not understanding my OP.

Downed: Is the active state you can still fight back. Where you have access to your abilities and can still stay in the fight possibly rallying back to fight. THIS state I have no problem with and welcome this part of the game.

Defeated: Is when a downed player is… defeated. Where you no longer have access to your abilities/rally and must wait to be rezzed, or waypoint out. THIS IS what I have problems with. Bad play should be punished.

I think the ability to rez is fine. Especially given this is WvW, rather than PvP. It balances against the temptation to have more waypoints and is a better mechanic.

Also,Think about it. If you want WvW to die out quickly just make it less “forgiving” and more punishing. Remove rez and make players have to run across the map. It might feel good to “punish” those players who are not as good as you are, but you need those “casual” and “not as skilled” players. Otherwise forget about any attention to battlegrounds in future releases.

Laska.3865:

I think the ability to rez is fine. Especially given this is WvW, rather than PvP. It balances against the temptation to have more waypoints and is a better mechanic.

Also,Think about it. If you want WvW to die out quickly just make it less “forgiving” and more punishing. Remove rez and make players have to run across the map. It might feel good to “punish” those players who are not as good as you are, but you need those “casual” and “not as skilled” players. Otherwise forget about any attention to battlegrounds in future releases.

It is the very “casual friendly” nature that is killing WvW. Pvp is not casual friendly. No matter how much the developers attempt to dress it up. It’s not. It never will be. Some players can only fight against scripted encounters and this is why pve exists.

There is nothing casual about WvW other than, anyone can join it. The repair costs are not casual. The siege costs are not casual. The gear you get from it is not casual. The upgrade costs, not casual.

I can actually get behind this idea in PvP areas.

If you are downed, you can still be rezzed. Dead you lose vision (Any of the above suggestions to remove scouting). Stomped and you are forced back to respawn.

That’s what I could get behind.

[quote=705953;SoulstitchMMO.1396
It is the very “casual friendly” nature that is killing WvW. Pvp is not casual friendly. No matter how much the developers attempt to dress it up. It’s not. It never will be. Some players can only fight against scripted encounters and this is why pve exists.

There is nothing casual about WvW other than, anyone can join it. The repair costs are not casual. The siege costs are not casual. The gear you get from it is not casual. The upgrade costs, not casual.

[/quote]

Good luck trying to get GW to support development heavy battlegrounds while being convinced to discourage so called “casuals”. Do you really think they are going to support BGs fine tuned for only a couple of hundred players? Not going to happen. Might as well try to enjoy being around other people who are not “as god” as you are… oh, I mispelled that didn’t I.

LOL, there are way to many people that PvP that need to get a life. It’s a game, and since it is multiplayer you will have to SHARE it. By the way. I have stomped you before

i wish its just.
downed->combat res is ok
defeated->only ressable when ressurector is NOT in combat.

god knows i had enough people/squad go in w/e dmg invun/protections they got, res a good 30% of defeated player, run back. wait for cd, repeat. cant do anything to stop it. especially since for most classes, interrupts are single target or close to melee range for aoe not to mention projectile block negates most range interrupts.

As a regular soloer/duoer who frequently does 1vX, downed state is about as stupid a mechanic you could create.

It’s hard enough to take on multiple attackers at once, let alone having them rally off a bystanding deer, or rezzing their teammate while standing in a pool of fire. It’s nothing short of absurd.

Downed state ought to be disabled in PVP zones, or as suggested numerous times on the forum, the rez should be channelled and should break and be reset to zero on damage. There should be a forced respawn timer on entering the defeated state of about 30-120 seconds.

mjharrison.3209:

As a regular soloer/duoer who frequently does 1vX, downed state is about as stupid a mechanic you could create.

Downed state is exactly what makes things like <2 second kill thieves not broken. Downed state puts a hard floor on TTK at time it takes to down opponent + time to finish the opponent, which allows team-mates to react to defend.

Downed is fine and with big maps and lots of travelling its actual a good idea. Also prevents as folks have pointed out rewarding glass-cannon/thieves from being rediculously OP.

Now Dead….I dont mind Dead being ressurected with 3 exceptions :

1) You cannot res dead in combat (leave downed as is)
2) When dead you go blind and mute (and if you are from Sea of Sorrows or Blackgate you have Kenny Loggins music played, you also cannot talk / whisper etc. Things go black…like for example when you are dead.
3) You cannot be res’d by stealthed players.

Thus teams that can win an engagement totally can rez their dead and rumble on. Folks who are downed can be brought back up as is (this creates and opportunity to use downed players as bait btw).

Oh yeh and when downed, other than perhaps stuns/knockbacks/fears you shouldnt be able to damage other players (other than those with pets who should guard their masters body/try to revive it)

Yes take out reviving defeated players, cause it seems “attrition” only applies to constantly trebbing a wall from the safety of your keep or tower as the defenders repair the walls.

Seriously, there really is no reason to fight if you aren’t going to do a complete wipeout of the other side cause, even if you managed to down 29 out of the 30 of them, that one guy is going to start reviving all of them and they can keep chugging.

Tulisin.6945:

Downed state is exactly what makes things like <2 second kill thieves not broken. Downed state puts a hard floor on TTK at time it takes to down opponent + time to finish the opponent, which allows team-mates to react to defend.

Quite frankly this is a ridiculous justification. First, because thieves can easily stealth-stomp (itself ridiculous); second, PVP games should not have insta-gibbing at all, it’s the opposite of skill; third, it completely unbalances the 1v1 situation (lolol 100% to 0% in < 2secs then stealth-stomp).

If you are saying dead ppl should not be able to be ressed while downed people can be well i agree. Nothing like watching half an army rise up when you killed them 5 mins ago.

mjharrison.3209:

Tulisin.6945:

Downed state is exactly what makes things like <2 second kill thieves not broken. Downed state puts a hard floor on TTK at time it takes to down opponent + time to finish the opponent, which allows team-mates to react to defend.

Quite frankly this is a ridiculous justification. First, because thieves can easily stealth-stomp (itself ridiculous); second, PVP games should not have insta-gibbing at all, it’s the opposite of skill; third, it completely unbalances the 1v1 situation (lolol 100% to 0% in < 2secs then stealth-stomp).

Stealth stomp is easy to counter in anything but 1v1, and it doesn’t take 2 seconds unless the thief is also burning Haste.

The downed state creates an interesting meta that makes PvP more enriching, and more importantly the game is built and balanced around it, taking it out would have serious consequences.

What the downed state does not do is make 1v1 particularly different.

Its funny how easy it is to down some players, then discover they get super powers and do more damage when downed..

downed state dumbs down pvp, and rewards zergs. It rewards tagging everything, esp an npc that can be easily killed in case you get downed so you can easily rally as needed.

Adding some servers without the downed system in wvw would take over in popularity super fast. Imagine getting to pvp without get out of jail free cards for zergs.

I don’t mind the downed state. If you can down someone very easily, just continue to focus fire him when he is down instead of running over to try to stomp him. Treat it as a additional sliver of health bar instead of some kind of life-after-defeat state. However, I do feel that the abilities in the downed state could use some balancing among classes.

I agree with OP that there should a penalty for resurrecting the completely defeated. Instead of completely outlawing it, perhaps a severe penalty work better. For example, resurrecting defeated players in combat is 66 or 75% slower (unaffected out of combat). This might even introduce an additional element of strategy since resurrecting players are a beacon for AOE/siege attacks, players can use their advantage to damage a group of players more quickly, and the resurrecting team still has the option to do so, but have to be much more careful even against a smaller force.

Telegraph.7509:

I don’t mind the downed state. If you can down someone very easily, just continue to focus fire him when he is down instead of running over to try to stomp him. Treat it as a additional sliver of health bar instead of some kind of life-after-defeat state. However, I do feel that the abilities in the downed state could use some balancing among classes.

I agree with OP that there should a penalty for resurrecting the completely defeated. Instead of completely outlawing it, perhaps a severe penalty work better. For example, resurrecting defeated players in combat is 66 or 75% slower (unaffected out of combat). This might even introduce an additional element of strategy since resurrecting players are a beacon for AOE/siege attacks, players can use their advantage to damage a group of players more quickly, and the resurrecting team still has the option to do so, but have to be much more careful even against a smaller force.

hmm i like that idea. If they come back from the dead make em 75% of thier former self unless they res them selves at a waypoint.
Oh and in 75% of thier self means they come back with only 75% of thier original stats. If they die again lower by 5% till they are basicly zombies lol. Because its haunting when your people whipe out a zerg and some lost souls come and res everyone and continue the war.

You ppl still don’t get it. When you complain anything just about anything about GW2 features such as ability to rez defeated players in combat, think about how these features generate $ for Anet.

It make sense for Anet to introduce the ability to rez in order to increase their $. When you are defeated, that is one repair bill. Other player res you, you are likely to be downed again in the immediate future after res. That is a second repair bill for Anet. Res→downed→res→downed = cash register ringing for Anet. Get it?

If you are seriously wanting such feature to be removed, propose alternative that can earn more $ for Anet. That will set them thinking seriously about your proposal. Otherwise, all talks are just hot air. Get it?

Oh and here is another thing I forgot to mention about reviving defeated players. Let’s say someone is attacking a keep, and the defenders manage to defeat one of the attackers. His friend starts reviving him. So ok, defenders start hitting the guy who is reviving, and he just rolls out of range and heals up.

Here is the issue: The progress he made in reviving the defeated player? It doesn’t reset, at all. And you can’t hit the defeated player to undo any progress put into reviving them. Its really rediculous when you’re desperately firing a cannon at a corpse just to see its health bar continue to increase.

I like the downed mechanic and its implementation. I’d maybe shorten the time until you are unrezzable to 2 minutes at which point player is forced to view map only. This adds pressure to rez within a reasonable time and removes corpse cam scouting.

SoulstitchMMO.1396:

This has been discussed ad nauseum with the developers but it’s time to revisit this.

Rezzing defeated players in the middle of combat, is detrimental to skillful play. I recently recorded a video of me 1v5:

http://youtu.be/97iwxawOemo

Where I kept downing people, and they could keep rezzing the defeated person. The advantage goes to the zerg. Not because of skill, but because of numbers. While I know the developers are afraid of changing the defeated state because of it’s pve implications, shouldn’t defeat… matter? If people are defeated make them run back. Make it a real consequence.

Not to be off topic, but I have to know. Same Soulstitch as was in Rift? crosses fingers and grins (You tried to convince me to play LoL, same Sinfullysweet as in Rift)

When Defeated Armor Breaks… that is all

Something has to be done about the rez situation, no doubt.

I run with a 10-15 man group of very skilled players, and we love the challenge of facing larger numbers. However, the rez mechanic is an endless frustration for us. When we surprise attack 40 people, we may down 15-20 immediately, but after that initial hit, we are forced to address a few enemies running about insta-rezzing those we already downed/killed while an ever-increasing number begins to fight back.

It’s a dismal situation, and the advantage is ALWAYS with the numbers.

Being able to rez a downed player faster than you can stomp is ridiculous.

The downed penalty has virtually no impact on PvP and was clearly designed for players getting one-shot in PvE dungeons.

There is a large gamut between “removed downed and rez’ing completely” and “it’s fine.”

I think modestly reducing revival healing and significant diminishing returns for multiple revivers would go a long way to making all combat, whether it’s outnumbered 1v3, 5v10, or an even battle of 20v20, far more fulfilling while keeping the mechanic an important (and I think fun) part of the game.

Right now the mechanic over-rewards staying safely away from the enemy which I think most people agree is not a great PvP experience.

I run small groups in WvW (3-4), and we’re literally almost always outnumbered when fighting. While I agree that downed favors having more players, I would be content with one simple change: don’t allow people to rally off of mob kills. That has been one of the most frustrating things in WvW for me. We had a 4 v 10 fight that we lost literally because of a mob rallying players. Other than that, I think it’s fine.

Instant burn dead corpses to get rid of them. Force a respawn at base.

I don’t agree with the instant burn. If you’re fighting a group and you wipe them out and have someone left alive at the end to rez, I think you should be able to do so. I agree, though, that you shouldn’t be able to rez fully dead players while in combat. I’m sure with greater numbers they get rezzed up fairly quickly, which is completely stupid. Only 1 group has ever tried to do that to my small group, and 5 of them got 100 bladed down by 2 warriors while trying to rez a dead guy. On a much smaller scale, doesn’t make much sense. On a ZvZ scale, I could see it being a problem.

Seems like most of the anecdotal stories from those in favor of the OP involve being outnumbered by 2 to 1 or more. Naturally, they conclude it is this unfair mechanic that is the reason for their loss and not that they lacked the skill to overcome a very lopsided battle.

“It’s not fair I couldn’t kill 5 guys solo” isn’t a problem the game design should be corrected to fix.

Just remove downed state from Wv3, its fine for PvE. Its lame in Wv3 as a large group vs smaller has almost no chance of losing if the larger group pays attention and gets on downed folks right away. This occurs all the time, a more skilled group owns a larger, but the larger wins because the smaller cant spike anyone and the larger keeps rezing them. Remove it from Wv3 period. It’s already lame in the fact that a ton of players do more damage dead than alive. (lol) Also kitten how players take way less damage “dead” than alive (rofl) Fight someone 1v1 and they barely get you to half health before you down them…then play the knockdown, stun, teleport game while theyre in the downed state and when u finally get the spike…ur like 10% health = DUMB! Sort of agree with the post to autoport dead players. You cant fight, move, or anything else while your dead…so why allow them to “see” and scout siege placements for their team. But instead of an autoport make their default screen be the map, so they cant scout for their team, but can still get a rez if their teamates can do it.

I for one will never touch GW1 sPVP or tPVP for as long as Downed State is as big a factor as it is. It’s not fun to play, not good to watch, takes focus away from the core combat, rewards numbers over skill, is unbalanced and rife with exploits/bugs.

It’s a failed experiment, and the longer Anet clings to it, the worse the prospects for GW2 as a serious PVP game look.

While PVE and sPVP have been thoroughly disappointing, WVW is very good and will probably keep me playing for a while (until Darkfall 2 comes out?).

SoulstitchMMO.1396:

Ok a lot of you in this thread are not understanding my OP.

Downed: Is the active state you can still fight back. Where you have access to your abilities and can still stay in the fight possibly rallying back to fight. THIS state I have no problem with and welcome this part of the game.

Defeated: Is when a downed player is… defeated. Where you no longer have access to your abilities/rally and must wait to be rezzed, or waypoint out. THIS IS what I have problems with. Bad play should be punished.

You are being reasonable in your view of the downed state. You are, however, assuming way too much in saying “Bad play should be punished.”

Getting ganked by two thieves you had no way of knowing were near you and you could never see due to rendering errors is not “bad play.” Getting overrun by ten players who all focus on you because you could never see them and kill you before you can even react is decidedly not bad play. Being caught and killed by even one player when you have low life and no more cooldowns after defeating a skilled player is not bad play. In fact, you could be the most skilled player in the game, as most PvP’ers assume they are, and still get killed even though you did everything right.

Yes, there are plenty of times where people play poorly and get killed. However, these and a thousand other situations in WvW where either circumstances or game bugs/issues or balances issues result in your death do not automatically constitute “bad play.”

It is one thing to suggest that you should be unrevivable once defeated for your sense of what is best for the flow of the game. I might even agree with you on that. However, to suggest that a player’s defeat is the result of “bad play” soley based on the idea that, if you are dead, you played badly, is a completely unsupportable conclusion.