Guild Wars 2

The application of it is just ridiculous.

Why? A little elaboration please.

Why?
I like it. It makes people think a bit when in combat.

Its much to punishing for melee builds; your options are move or don’t move; I could see the addition of another DoT based attack but one that hurts movement doesn’t fit a meta in which movement/dodging is a fundamental.

It makes people think “well, I could move and take a ton of damage, or I could sit still in a mobility focused MMO and let this Thief nuke my face with 100% accuracy while I do absolutely no damage”.

It’s essentially a straight up damage increase to any class that gets it, that punishes melee builds and anyone who doesn’t want to sit still like you’re playing WoW.

It’s simply another mechanic that is no fun to deal with.

Folk.2093:

Its much to punishing for melee builds; your options are move or don’t move; I could see the addition of another DoT based attack but one that hurts movement doesn’t fit a meta in which movement/dodging is a fundamental.

Exactly. It’s nothing but a damage increase, there is no real depth.

Not moving is worse than moving, even though moving just helps the enemy.

Its punishing for ZERK WARRIORS, yea… Someone who would actually build some vitality have no problems at all.

I think someone here got killed by torment and doesnt have any source of giving it himself

Folk.2093:

Its much to punishing for melee builds; your options are move or don’t move; I could see the addition of another DoT based attack but one that hurts movement doesn’t fit a meta in which movement/dodging is a fundamental.

So, don’t be stupid and only use melee then?

The whole point of it is to force people to decide if it is worth the extra damage from moving, or risking death by not moving.

i was kinda glad when i read about torment. i thought it would be good to have some kind of a way to decrease OP mobility of some classes (thiefs/eles). and what did we get?

give my warrior torment so i can put it on thief and if he gets in stealth, torment stacks should double instantly.

lordkrall.7241:

Folk.2093:

Its much to punishing for melee builds; your options are move or don’t move; I could see the addition of another DoT based attack but one that hurts movement doesn’t fit a meta in which movement/dodging is a fundamental.

So, don’t be stupid and only use melee then?

The whole point of it is to force people to decide if it is worth the extra damage from moving, or risking death by not moving.

So everyone should change any builds focusing on one weapon or two combo melee weapons or shut up?

As if builds weren’t cookie cutter and limited enough, now we need to make sure we have these as additional checks:

1.) Have a ranged weapon in your build with traits to make it useful? If not then

2.) Have a build with tons of condition removal that doesn’t have any other kind of strategy that wouldn’t utilize condition removal? If not then

3.) Have a build with tons of Vitality instead of toughness or berserkers? If not then

Oh well.

I agree torment is a joke. Anet said that movement is a core mechanic in this game which is dumb to say anyways because what game is it not. Do you really think movement is not important in other mmo/games? Torment adds NOTHING nobody thinks for a second if they should move or not because there is ZERO reason to not move.

don’t think torment has changed much tbh, its just a big buff to necro ds, and even then its just another ability to spam before lifeforce runs out. Ive played the new necro in wvw, and all you do is run into the middle of a group, spam wells, spam staff marks, enter ds, spam aoe fear, spam life transfer, torment, leave ds, epidrmic, run away and wait for loot bags to spawn

Two words. Condition removal.

Something that I’ve seen brought up but haven’t had to deal with is ranger pets. Even if it kills them, they’ll just stupidly run around with torment, racking up the damage trying and failing to hit a moving target.

Homonavn.6348:

Its punishing for ZERK WARRIORS, yea… Someone who would actually build some vitality have no problems at all.

I think someone here got killed by torment and doesnt have any source of giving it himself

So your advice is everyone should use vitality ? Hell…lets just remove all other stats and use vitality stats on all !

I think the op has a valid point,but seeing torment in action,i think the dmg is rather minimal to be a real issue.

I would’ve liked it way more if the damage it dealt was distance-based. Want to teleport 1200 range away from me? Sure, but you’ll have to eat 1.5k burst damage, for example. Would make for way more interesting situations where limiting your own mobility may very well be the right choice : as it stands, nobody stands still to mitigate the damage as they would take more from other sources anyways. And while conditionmancer may be a little over the top, anyone who complains about torment on thieves/mesmers makes me laugh: think about it, their condition builds are/were kinda bad, and the burst ones don’t get to use torment.

Alarox.4590:

It makes people think “well, I could move and take a ton of damage, or I could sit still in a mobility focused MMO and let this Thief nuke my face with 100% accuracy while I do absolutely no damage”.

It’s essentially a straight up damage increase to any class that gets it, that punishes melee builds and anyone who doesn’t want to sit still like you’re playing WoW.

It’s simply another mechanic that is no fun to deal with.

It did amuse me that on top of this, they gave it only to the 3 most popular PvP classes.

If the patch had released on April 1, I would have thought it was an April Fools joke. :-\

There we go ^

It’s not like mesmers and thieves autoattacks now have torment. Some of their builds, that were without doubt weak, got buffed. I see no problem with that and I don’t understand how people fail to realize this.

P.s. Necro was one of the less popular PvP classes

Azure Prower.8701:

Two words. Condition removal.

This.

Stun Chill Cripple and Immobilise say hi. Most of the conditions affect movement already. This one just happens to do damage too.

Only necros have easy access to it anyway, and they needed a buff in pvp. Scale venom is still bad.

Mesmer torment isn’t really going to be a thing. Scepter 2 applies torment but it actually has to block an attack to apply anything at all. If you see a mesmer raise a scepter into a defensive position just quit attacking. The only other skill is offhand sword and I don’t know a single mesmer who uses that weapon.

Necro’s with a death shroud build could be a problem but they needed a buff anyway. If you see a necro in death shroud try to get out of his range fast. The torment skill range isn’t all that large.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Mesmer torment isn’t really going to be a thing. Scepter 2 applies torment but it actually has to block an attack to apply anything at all. If you see a mesmer raise a scepter into a defensive position just quit attacking. The only other skill is offhand sword and I don’t know a single mesmer who uses that weapon.

Necro’s with a death shroud build could be a problem but they needed a buff anyway. If you see a necro in death shroud try to get out of his range fast. The torment skill range isn’t all that large.

Death shroud build is more power based, its condi necros that get the most out of torment.

Alarox.4590:

So everyone should change any builds focusing on one weapon or two combo melee weapons or shut up?

No, but anyone not having range capability should expect that there will be moments when they’ll be doing 0 damage due to not being in melee range. Melee attacks do come with a range disadvantage for a reason.

Azure Prower.8701:

Two words. Condition removal.

Also this.

People are already complaining about Torment?

Might as well complain about Bleeds.

All torment is honestly is a amp’d bleed if you move,. Good ways to counter things like this are.
1) Condition Removal
2)Regeneration skills/Food/ Sustaining ability

The condition is lackluster at the very maximum. You aren’t forced to stand still, and the damage caused by it isn’t too noticeable considering that a maximum of 5 stacks can be applied (only by a mesmer who hits with illusionary counter). 5 stacks of torment = 5Bleed(1.5)^CondiDamage, which doesn’t add up to much. 7.5 stacks of bleeding hurts just enough to notice, and it’s rare enough that you’ll never get hit by it in your wildest dreams.

Folk.2093:

Its much to punishing for melee builds; your options are move or don’t move; I could see the addition of another DoT based attack but one that hurts movement doesn’t fit a meta in which movement/dodging is a fundamental.

Yes it does.

The entire point of torment is to punish you for running. Clear the condition, or don’t run.

If you cripple yourself with full-melee builds with insufficient survivability and condition cleansing that’s your problem.

It’s not like Torment is easy to “spam” either ways. Nor does it hurt that much either…

Azure Prower.8701:

Two words. Condition removal.

You sir or madam, win this thread.

Conditions got you down? Remove them. If torment is allowed to tick it’s full duration, it’s pretty much your fault. This is the lesson I have learned when first trying it out & having others try it out on me. (except now I troll and transfer it back to necros/thieves for the luls)

notices this is a PvP complaint

Take it to the sPvP forums, because in general PvE it is just fine.

How to go against torment

Warriors – mostly you are glasscannon zerkers, you could equip a signet which icncreaes precision and removes all conditions upon activation.

Guardians – teleport skill to the target and you have tons of removers

Necromancer – deathsroud, dark path

Elementalist – pfff tons of heal and removers

Thieves – shadowstep and return, or use torment yourself

Mesmer – Null field, its importan or just blink, or use freaking greatsword

Engineer – tons of elixirs that remove conditions

Ranger – you’re a ranger, you always have the bow and the pet.

I think the issue is the availability of other conditions on top of the application of torment.

People say to simply cleanse it off, but keep in mind that you can not target a specific condition to be removed when you have a large amount on you.

Also the frequency that torment can be cast on you and the duration that it lasts is an issue.

I am sure it is all still in a balancing phase, and those two points can be addressed if need be.

The third issue the players have with this condition is the selected professions to gain torment. It is viewed that they are already effective in mobility, and an added mobility skill seems overkill and heavy stacked in favor of already disliked professions/builds.

Complaints are valid, but they have to come with quantifiable data so that it can be adjusted and fixed if need be.

Necromancers have the worst mobility in game, and the only one that had a strong condition damage build before the patch They get to use torment once every…30s if I recall correctly? As for condition dmg thieves and mesmers, I don’t really know but it seems to me they don’t have access to many conditions.

Wolfheart.1938:

Necromancers have the worst mobility in game, and the only one that had a strong condition damage build before the patch They get to use torment once every…30s if I recall correctly? As for condition dmg thieves and mesmers, I don’t really know but it seems to me they don’t have access to many conditions.

We have access in the form of venoms. Venoms suck though.

Please. A stack of Torment barely deals more damage than a stack of Bleed and the very few application methods only apply a few stacks.

I don’t think Torment is conceptually a good idea (it punishes people for what they’re supposed to be doing anyway) but in practice, it’s a very small DPS increase.

CMF.5461:

Also the frequency that torment can be cast on you and the duration that it lasts is an issue.

Necros get 10 seconds of Torment (3 stacks) on a 40 second cooldown, Mesmers get 8 seconds of Torment (5 stacks) on a 12 second cooldown, but only if the use the still-bad Scepter, and Thieves get 5 seconds of Torment (up to three stacks) on a 45 second cooldown, but that requires them to use a Venom instead of a Signet or Deception skill. The Mesmer is the only profession that can get significant Torment uptime and, again, that requires them to use the terribleness that is their Scepter.

CMF.5461:

The third issue the players have with this condition is the selected professions to gain torment. It is viewed that they are already effective in mobility, and an added mobility skill seems overkill and heavy stacked in favor of already disliked professions/builds.

Necros are arguable the lowest-mobility profession in the game while Thieves almost never build condition damage (and their Torment application is by far the worst as well) and the Mesmer’s torment is on a terrible weapon.

I when I say effective in mobility, I guess what I meant is mobility control.

Either by moving faster yourself or by hindering the movement of your target.

Stuns/immobilize/snares and now also torment.

I have not had a personal issue with it myself yet, but I have yet to feel its full potential. We will see how it goes as people develop strategies and use torment more throughout the next few days.

CMF.5461:

I when I say effective in mobility, I guess what I meant is mobility control.

Either by moving faster yourself or by hindering the movement of your target.

Throwing the net that broadly rather undermines your argument, wouldn’t you say? Torment is just the sort of effect you’d expect on a class that focuses on mobility control.

I don’t think I’m fronting an argument so much as addressing concerns. I have said that it is yet to be determined on if it “needs to be removed”. The factors I identified I feel need to be looked at to determine if the condition is too strong or not.

So you can stop trying to create an image of me of having no leg to stand on and should not talk.

Mobility as control is exactly what that torment is.

Swiftness is a boon which allows the attacker to get out of harms way via increased mobility.

Immobilize/Cripple/Chill are conditions which were designed two fold: keep the target in harms way and to allow others to remain out of reach of the one afflicted by those conditions.

Torment is a new aspect of movement control which increases in damage if the target moves, otherwise does sub par damage if you remain stationary.

By staying still you become prone to other sources of damage such as ground effects or staying withing range of additional attackers, so the majority of the time you would want to stay mobile….not always though, which turns into a risk versus reward debate.

The question is did we need another variable in the mobility war?

Increased Movement:
Swiftness/Teleport/Stun Break/???

Decreased Movement:
Immobilize/Cripple/Chill/Torment/Knock down+back/Stun+Daze/(maybe invisibility if you want to count that)

There are already ways to control movement, did we need torment? Or could they have provided more sources of the existing movement control mechanics to those classes who may have needed it?

Necros are argued at having the worst self mobility, but the developers have stated they feel necros have great mobility control via cripples and chills and the like. They are now given another form of control when the developers have said mobility was fine for necros.

Mesmers have great mobility in the idea of they are difficult to lock down and fight with the variety of illusions, teleports, and daze/stuns available to them. They are now given another form of mobility by hindering movement of the target in catching them even more.

Thieves have a self professed advantage with mobility as they are supposed to be very squishy when caught by design, so they are given many outs and ways to disengage from combat as a core mechanic. They are now given one more movement hindering ability to stack on top of already good mobility.

All said and done, I have said a lot of negative things about torment, but I reserve my judgement on if it is bad or good. I voice my fears and continue to watch to see how it develops.

As far as my concern on the availability of the condition, it seems it is not prevalent at the moment with necros, thieves, and mesmers having a 40s, kitten 15s (only on successful block) cooldown respectively.

The other two concerns:

• is it too strong stacked with other conditions
• do the classes that received it need it?

We will see as time goes on. The developers have said they don’t like to make sweeping changes that drastically change the game, so this is their way of testing the waters I am sure.

Yeah torment isn’t all that threatening. Maybe it hurts more from necro as they can stack it a lot but in wvw on my pvt warrior it’s quite useless. Burn still does way more dps than torment and it doesn’t even have to stay on for too long. In all honesty, standing still is just a bad idea for anyone. You’re better off taking the extra degen than sitting still and not dodging any attacks.