Reading this forum and reddit (most notably http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/15jmk7/confessions_of_a_magic_find_leech), I’ve seen many proposed changes to the magic find stat, and many valid arguments why they may not be good changes.
Proposal: allow the option to disable the magic find stat when making a dungeon instance. With magic find disabled, a player in magic find gear has no incentive to continue to wear MF, and will either swap to his/her DPS or protective set for a smoother and faster run (note: I realize knight’s and explorer’s gear have the same DPS on paper, but being able to dodge/kite fewer times and/or stay in melee longer produces more actual DPS), or will join a party that is not disabling magic find.
This addition would remove the prisoners’ dilemma that one is only hurting himself by not leeching extra loot to the detriment of the rest of his party. There is no fear that somebody is secretly contributing less than he/she could and getting more, because nobody is getting more and a slower run will hurt the leecher as well. Besides removing the dishonest/secretive leeching described in the reddit post, there will also not be the potential downsides that may come from completely removing MF, or adding an inspect function. My opinions on those two options are below.
Inspect function: I am actually strongly in favor of this, although many will argue that it will lead to (arguably) unfair exclusion of some other players that either run full healing, full tank, full glass cannon, or do not yet have full exotics. I myself am willing to help an inexperienced or undergeared player as long as he/she is willing to listen; unfortunately some others may not feel the same way, going by results instead of effort, and inspect will make it easier for those players to exclude others.
Complete removal of magic find: I personally would not mind this change, as I myself do not run magic find. However there are casual players in open world PvE who like to magic find, as well as parties of guilds/friends who knowingly use magic find with each other (perhaps in a preset rotation if the dungeon is not viable with five magic finders). Almost all would seem to agree that magic find is only an issue if someone is “leeching” with it without the knowledge/consent of his party members, so complete removal is possibly overkill.
This is absurd, by all rights simply absurd. Yet again another post and thread amongst many that claim the hurtful nature of MF and yet show no supporting evidence that someone in MF hurts the groups run.
Before you zealots go off on your witch hunt just please show me
How much power = raw damage
– meaning how many points in power do you need to get +1 damage
How many points in Precision Adds to your crit chance ?
How much Vitality adds to your health
How much Toughness mitigates how much damage?
I have ran Arah path 1,2,3,4 with a full MF group, we did it with no wipes. How are we any less of a group than a group in all exo’s?
I have been running MF set as a Mitigation Gaurdrian concealed as CoF gear and I have only died 3 times in the past 2 weeks which includes All paths in Arah, CoF, SE, TA, AC and HoT, how are you going to tell me I hinder a party?
If your in a group that has a prefect run no wipes no deaths everything goes smooth and you finish it with in 28 minutes and three people say yeah I got two exotics I love my magic find gear, are you going to yell at them and tell them that you could have run that dungeon 5 minutes quicker if they weren’t greedy?
A good run is a run that doesn’t have a lot of wipes and people that know what they are doing. MF gear does not change a persons skill or cause party wipes bad players do. I have ran with groups that are in full Exotics as they linked their gear after I linked my MF set. that died and wiped more times than I can count. In fact 7 out of 10 times we are wiping it is not because of MF gear as usually the person if not in MF gear.
Stop blaming a stat for bad players. Asking for the removal of it cause you don’t agree with it is just as selfish as the people that use it.
An Inspect option is the worse Idea ever thought of, it is already bad enough I go to run SE and a 57 joins us and the elitist jerk boots him cause he is not 80 or has 845 achievement points. Where you might not care about gear ( minus MF ) others will and you my friend are a rare breed.
In closing there is no substantial proof that MF creates a detriment to a group. As no one knows the Attribute conversion for power vitality toughness precision. By your own words you would rather help out a person less geared and less skilled ( which creates more of a detriment than MF ) than take a person that is a good player in MF. Even though that good person probably knows how to stay in the fight just as long as the person not in mf gear and can dodge and kite just as good as anyone else. You would rather take the “Noob” that dies to everything and leaves you fighting a 4 man battle the whole time, which in all honesty is longer than having a MF gear person in the group. That is like groups that want to run through 25 mobs to run from boss to boss ( cause it is faster) and lose two or three people in the process. Then they have to wait for the two or three people to get there, which usually ends up one of them dies again. So the group had to wait 5 to 8 minutes finally everyone is there and they are battling the boss, one person dies and has to run the mobs again dies two more times finally makes it back and in the end the group took roughly 12 minutes longer. When in the first place if they just cleared the mobs and took 5 minutes to clear the 25 mobs this would have never been an issue. So why do people do it, because they think it is faster, just like why do people blame MF for bad players, cause it is the only stat that doesn’t do DPS.
I promise you if then did remove magic find all your so called problems would still be there and what would you blame next ? Regardless of weather it was fully benificial or not I ran fractals Lv 1 – 3 in level 55 gear on my ele ( I didn’t actually realize it ) I was the only one standing 90% of the time and once I even kitted the boss and killed him form 5% or so, I also did AC, CoF, and TA in the same gear again never having issues. If I could do that in 55 gear ( that was rare ) and had smooth runs and be beneficial why does it matter if we could have done it 5 minutes faster ? If I could do that in 55 Gear and be beneficial what makes you think that level 80 MF gear is any less efficient?
You want the party leader to have the option to disable MF at the start of a dungeon…
Fine, but everyone in MF gear gets the option to kill another attribute on everyone else.
And let’s stack it!
Party leader wants to kill the MF on two players, in fairness those two get to kill the power and toughness of everyone NOT in MF gear.
Karma is a kitten!
You want the party leader to have the option to disable MF at the start of a dungeon…
Fine, but everyone in MF gear gets the option to kill another attribute on everyone else.
And let’s stack it!Party leader wants to kill the MF on two players, in fairness those two get to kill the power and toughness of everyone NOT in MF gear.
Karma is a kitten!
Exactly, it is the players choice to run MF just as it is your choice to not run in it. Honestly most players in MF due to the heavy trolling done on them have transmuted their gear like I have and learned to play a lot better than your average player that thinks Gear> than skill. Personally I will take a MF player any day over a fully exo player at least they have the potential to be a better player. This is not 100% true but neither is the player in all Exo’s and level 80 is the better player than the 37 in greens or yellows.
This is a game of player skill not gear.
This is absurd, by all rights simply absurd. Yet again another post and thread amongst many that claim the hurtful nature of MF and yet show no supporting evidence that someone in MF hurts the groups run.
First off, thank you for a serious reply.
When a party wipes on the last boss of the grawl shaman in fractals while the boss has only 10% health remaining, and there are two players running magic find, it’s not exactly difficult to figure out a major contributor to the wipe. Ranger in the party was gimping his damage while the guardian was gimping his survivability.
The simplified damage formula works as follows (the full equation is known, by the way: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage):
(Power * WeaponAtk * SkillCoef) / (EnemyDef + EnemyToughness)
Before you zealots go off on your witch hunt just please show me
How much power = raw damage
– meaning how many points in power do you need to get +1 damage
This depends on the enemy total armor, as well as your roll on WeaponAtk, and your crit chance. Power scales linearly with damage, though, so adding 5% more power gives 5% more damage.
How many points in Precision Adds to your crit chance ?
21 precision = 1% crit chance. The fury buff is effectively 420 precision. You also forgot to mention crit damage, but it’s added onto a 150% multipler, and the multiplier is used whenever you roll a critical hit.
How much Vitality adds to your health
10 HP per point of vitality.
How much Toughness mitigates how much damage?
Toughness does not scale exactly inversely with damage, but total armor (def from armor/shield plus toughness) does. A player with 2000 total armor who takes 2000 damage from an attack would take 1666.7 with 400 more toughness (2400 total armor) and 1333.3 with 1000 more toughness (3000 total armor)
I have ran Arah path 1,2,3,4 with a full MF group, we did it with no wipes. How are we any less of a group than a group in all exo’s?
It sounds as if your group knows the dungeon fairly well, and you are trying to compare yourselves to PUGs doing the dungeon for the first time, although they have standard exotics. If you were to compare yourselves to a group of equal experience running full berserkers or whatever optimizes their party, then yes, you guys would be less of a group.
If I need to state anything for the sake of credibility (I don’t think it’s necessary myself but others may not share this view), I have the Dungeon Master title myself and my main is at 33 in Fractals right now.
I have been running MF set as a Mitigation Gaurdrian concealed as CoF gear and I have only died 3 times in the past 2 weeks which includes All paths in Arah, CoF, SE, TA, AC and HoT, how are you going to tell me I hinder a party?
I’m not a results-oriented person; I’m effort-oriented. Any person not trying as hard (emphasis on “trying” and not “accomplishing”) as possible with their gear and game play abilities is not welcome in my or my guild’s runs. As I’ve mentioned in other threads, I would expect more in Arah from the warrior that soloed Lupicus than I would expect from a guildy or PUG doing Arah for the first time.
As a side note again, I realize knight’s and explorer’s gear have the same damage on paper. But, being able to dodge less and keep DPSing, as well as being able to stay in melee longer rather than range, will both improve damage in game. Also, a set of knight armor will generally have runes that help with survival and/or damage, while the explorer armor will have more magic find runes.
Also, since you mentioned playing as a guardian, playing in glass MF gear (explorer/traveler) will dramatically reduce total armor vs knight/soldier armor, and will throw a lot of the melee aggro (favors highest total armor) onto another party member. If you are going this route, perhaps this is why you died so few times. Going full defensive MF gear (wayfarer) gives no offensive stat boost, so you would maintain aggro but do much less damage (~30-50% loss of DPS via power, and probably the same amount more from loss of all the other stats). I keep a set of emerald trinkets alongside my main ruby trinkets to increase my total armor in case someone else in my party is the aggro magnet and cannot handle it well enough.
(edited by Dave.2536)
If your in a group that has a prefect run no wipes no deaths everything goes smooth and you finish it with in 28 minutes and three people say yeah I got two exotics I love my magic find gear, are you going to yell at them and tell them that you could have run that dungeon 5 minutes quicker if they weren’t greedy?
No, but I would add that person to my block list and not ever run with him again. That 5 minutes you mentioned would apply (probably in increasing increments) for each party member running MF. Do you really think it would be just 33 minutes if all 5 were running MF? If not, then yes, you were leeching and being carried.
rest of your post
Can you please run through the intent of my proposal again (and, if you haven’t already, I urge you to read the reddit post itself)? Improving party performance (clear time/wipes) and one’s own success (loot accumulation) should not be mutually exclusive. More and more players are feeling forced to run MF, or play exclusively with friends/guild, because it is beneficial to themselves, and at the cost of party performance. Neither of these is healthy for the game in the long term.
I also realize that not everyone wants MF gone. The option to disable magic find in a dungeon would be open and clear to the entire party, so you could join another party that chose not to disable it. You could then run your MF with no shame and secrecy, and the rest of us would no longer have the prisoners’ dilemma of helping ourselves or helping the party. Because, if/when everyone chooses to help themselves, nobody will end up getting much.
I also don’t want to have to ask everyone in my group to ping their gear, which is why I proposed this instead of echoing others’ demands for “inspect”. The comparison of an experienced player with magic find and a random PUG is not relevant; the more appropriate comparison is a random PUG with magic find and another random PUG without magic find, and I will take the second one every time because statistically he will have a higher expected contribution and a higher ceiling potential.
But, if nothing is done about the current state of MF, I will be forced to become more and more elitist. If this results in players being forced to farm up another set of CoF armor with real stats and runes just to try to “trick me”, then at least that player will have that set to change to if a run goes poorly, and I would have the assurance that the leechers that get by my check are not just “some random PUG with MF”, but a “PUG with MF and a brain”.
This is a game of player skill not gear.
It was until ANet felt the need to add even more vertical progression into the game. The “skill not gear” argument is nowhere near as credible in GW2 as in GW1. In GW1 there was maybe a 15% difference in optimal and sub-optimal max level gear. In this game, optimal max-level gear can add 50% more more damage and/or survivability. There are definitely other sets of stats I’d prefer not to have in my group, but I can tolerate players running suboptimal gear if they aren’t intentionally gimping themselves for selfish reasons. That the game rewards this behavior is beyond broken.
You want the party leader to have the option to disable MF at the start of a dungeon…
Fine, but everyone in MF gear gets the option to kill another attribute on everyone else.
And let’s stack it!Party leader wants to kill the MF on two players, in fairness those two get to kill the power and toughness of everyone NOT in MF gear.
Karma is a kitten!
Someone didn’t understand the intent of my proposal…
If the party does not want MF in the party, you are free to join another party that does not have it disabled.
Also, toughness and power should be disabled on everyone, just like MF would be disabled on everyone. Have fun leeching that party…
Intentional or not, you do raise an interesting point about ignoring toughness. If an experienced clear group wants to run full glass cannons, disabling toughness would grant their wish of getting the glass cannons they wanted.
PS: welcome to my block list.
(edited by Dave.2536)
And people say this is supposed to be a social game, yet elitist put others on block/ignore list just because of their gear preference.
How anti-social of you ROFLMAO!
And you obviously didn’t understand my reply to your proposal. If you want to give the party leader the ability to kill a stat on another player’s gear when entering a dungeon, then the party leader and other party members better be prepared to have a stat killed by the affected players in return. It is called eye for an eye.
When a party wipes on the last boss of the grawl shaman in fractals while the boss has only 10% health remaining, and there are two players running magic find, it’s not exactly difficult to figure out a major contributor to the wipe. Ranger in the party was gimping his damage while the guardian was gimping his survivability.
Again your blaming the gear instead of the player.
My gear to exo’s
- 91 power
- 31 precision
-16% crit
I have 28% crit on my character as it stands with out exo
It sounds as if your group knows the dungeon fairly well, and you are trying to compare yourselves to PUGs doing the dungeon for the first time, although they have standard exotics. If you were to compare yourselves to a group of equal experience running full berserkers or whatever optimizes their party, then yes, you guys would be less of a group.
No we complete the dungeon with no wipes at a good time pace that doesn’t mean we are less of a group lol, that means we can complete a dungeon just as effectively as your group can in less superior gear, to me that makes us the better players.
I’m not a results-oriented person; I’m effort-oriented. Any person not trying as hard (emphasis on “trying” and not “accomplishing”) as possible with their gear and game play abilities is not welcome in my or my guild’s runs. As I’ve mentioned in other threads, I would expect more in Arah from the warrior that soloed Lupicus than I would expect from a guildy or PUG doing Arah for the first time.
Your not a result guy your an effort, so again you would rather have bad players in the “best gear” wipe you ten times and drop and make your run twice as long and that is fine with you. Although God Forbide you take on a player that knows what he is doing in MF gear that can complete the dungeon with no wipes and no deaths because he isn’t doing the damage you expect or deem he should be doing. The fact that you don’t want anyone in your run in MF is your choice, but being an elitist and gear checking them is just as unfair, the game main purpose is to play how you want… now you want everyone to appease to your style of play.
As a side note again, I realize knight’s and explorer’s gear have the same damage on paper. But, being able to dodge less and keep DPSing, as well as being able to stay in melee longer rather than range, will both improve damage in game. Also, a set of knight armor will generally have runes that help with survival and/or damage, while the explorer armor will have more magic find runes.
How does explore gear cause you to not be able to dodge as much… gear or not you can dodge twice. My warrior is traited so she does more damage when her adrenaline is full and she has 0 endurance to evade, I increase my damage by almost 20%. I don’t die hardly any on her. I can stay on dps in melee or out of melee, although by your statement I take it you assume the only way to dps is in melee.
If you want a reason to be socialized with, perhaps don’t be selfish and leech?
Aside from my trollish moments, I’m actually considered a nice person in game, as long as people listen/communicate/cooperate/don’t gimp themselves for selfish gain. I get friended on many of my higher level PUG fractal runs because people see me as an effective teammate. I’m also happy to run with many of them again because I see them putting as much effort as I am, both in planning (gear) and execution (gameplay).
Perhaps if you put in similar effort you’d get a similar social experience. In the meantime I don’t feel I’m missing out socially one bit at all by excluding you.
If you want a reason to be socialized with, perhaps don’t be selfish and leech?
Aside from my trollish moments, I’m actually considered a nice person in game, as long as people listen/communicate/cooperate/don’t gimp themselves for selfish gain. I get friended on many of my higher level PUG fractal runs because people see me as an effective teammate. I’m also happy to run with many of them again because I see them putting as much effort as I am, both in planning (gear) and execution (gameplay).
Perhaps if you put in similar effort you’d get a similar social experience. In the meantime I don’t feel I’m missing out socially one bit at all by excluding you.
My friend list is expansive enough that I can ask any 4 of them at anytime to run a fractal and they will in a heartbeat. Again your presumptive attitude that because I am in MF gear people hate me and want nothing to do with me when over 75% of my friends list knows I run in MF gear and daily I get ask to run fractals and arah and higher level content, cause they know I am a good player and they know I bring forth enough effort to the table that they never have to worry about me. Just cause you don’t like it doesn’t mean others wont accept it.
My last post was directed at the other guy in this thread, sorry. It was an unfortunate coincidence that I forgot to quote him and your post came before mine.
Again your blaming the gear instead of the player.
I’m blaming both in this case. Either better players or two team members not running magic find would have finished the job. It’s much harder to filter out player skill than it is to filter out selfish stats. That run, by the way, was why I started demanding no magic find in my parties.
My gear to exo’s
- 91 power
- 31 precision
-16% critI have 28% crit on my character as it stands with out exo
And what is this deficit after trinkets, runes, weapon, and sigil? Running defensive runes on semi-defensive armor (soldier runes on knight armor) on my guardian and I still manage 1857 power/59% crit chance/71% crit damage on 16k HP/2955 armor. The knight set is more for aggro control in PUGs (emerald trinkets in storage as well if it’s not enough), as I’d probably run closer to full glass with a regular group.
No we complete the dungeon with no wipes at a good time pace that doesn’t mean we are less of a group lol, that means we can complete a dungeon just as effectively as your group can in less superior gear, to me that makes us the better players.
No interest in self-handicapping unless we’re talking about full blown untwinked. I’ll take my faster/cleaner runs.
Your not a result guy your an effort, so again you would rather have bad players in the “best gear” wipe you ten times and drop and make your run twice as long and that is fine with you. Although God Forbide you take on a player that knows what he is doing in MF gear that can complete the dungeon with no wipes and no deaths because he isn’t doing the damage you expect or deem he should be doing. The fact that you don’t want anyone in your run in MF is your choice, but being an elitist and gear checking them is just as unfair, the game main purpose is to play how you want… now you want everyone to appease to your style of play.
I’ll even take a guy in full greens/rares who’s never done the dungeon if he’s willing to listen and cooperate. I can and will teach/help. I never said anything about best gear. I only said “not self-handicapping”. When gear above greens/yellows becomes easily accessible to newer players then I’ll start requiring that.
I have no issue with you or anyone else getting extra loot, but not secretly, without our consent, and at our expense. I’ve been posting “no magic find” on all my LFM postings, but I fear people like you will start joining them knowing you’re less likely to be stuck with another MFer. If you can promise me that MFers will never ever join my runs, I’ll shut up and go away. Otherwise, I’m seeking the best alternative to an inspect function and/or the complete removal of MF.
How does explore gear cause you to not be able to dodge as much
I meant that survival stats allow you to dodge less. But, since you asked this question anyways, traits like vigorous precision will grant longer vigor uptime with higher crit chance.
by your statement I take it you assume the only way to dps is in melee
Melee damage very follows ANet’s model that it be significantly greater than ranged, as it’s multihit and generally has higher skill coefficients. One possibly notable exception is the scepter on the guardian, but it only surpasses melee weapons (never the 1h sword) on single targets that don’t move (requires someone to hold aggro which you’re probably not doing). Almost no comparison between warrior greatsword and warrior longbow/rifle (longbow has nice combos for parties; rifle I cringe every time I see one).
(edited by Dave.2536)
Rest assured I was not the one who reported. My first sentence to you was thanks for a serious reply, and I do appreciate the dialogue.
I also don’t see why you would be this vehement against my proposal, as it would have little to no impact on you. You mention playing with friends who understand that you run MF and that they have no problems, and neither do I.
As far as making a rule for no MF in guild, the author of that reddit post admits to leeching in his own guild runs by fooling his guild. It’s pretty clear that some in the community are not as honest as you, so I am asking for a tool to remove this deception.
I don’t believe that you can’t be effective (others not as much); I do believe that you could be more effective, and that by not doing so you are setting a bad example and precedent as more and more people will feel compelled to run full MF or completely shun PUGs. That is the problem with the current prisoner’s dilemma.
Another edit: I may take you up on the offer to boot legendary wielders (they can be transmuted, by the way). My (limited) sample size has indicated those users are generally in the lower half of the players I play with. But I will boot 4/5 signet warriors long before I do that (I cringe, make a few jokes in guild chat/TS, but let them stay).
EDIT 2: I’ve thought of a good compromise. From now on MF Consumables = Kick in my groups (I’ll offer blackberry pies or other food as alternatives if people have nothing else). I suppose the loss of sigil of luck (instant kick) and 30% from food (50% from boost) may be enough incentive to deter people from my parties.
(edited by Dave.2536)
Will read the rest of your post soon (with a reply if I have one), but rest assured I was not the one who reported. My first sentence to you was thanks for a serious reply, and I do appreciate the dialogue.
Well then the Moderators have a weird sense of what is constructive and what is not.
Look basically there are many players out there like me, that can run an clean dungeon run as you put it, that are in MF. It does take a lot more skill and timing on my part to play it but I do it well. I understand that there are players out there that just are bad, but no matter what gear you put them in they are still going to be bad.
So blaming a stat for the bad players is not exactly fair, Like i said you don’t ever have to run with someone in MF that is fine that is your choice when making a group, I am not discrediting you on that fact. I understand your worried about someone coming in in MF gear trans mog and an extra set on the side, Let me say this your willing to run with them all day as you put it. I do the same but I have Never used my normal gear, I have even gotten high compliments from people Just like you that detest MF and I have linked my “regular gear”. Even though I never changed to the “normal gear” the placebo effect was still there, they assumed I was in normal gear and when the run went smooth and clean they never said, “hey by my calculations that run could have been done 7 minutes faster WTH” They in turn said that was he best run I have seen, and by far your one of the most beast Guardians I have seen mind if I add you too friends.
So my gear is not inducive of my skill to preform at an effective and contributing manor, might not be what your looking for but I assure you that with good players all around your runs would never be hindered by me out side of a few seconds to a few minutes slower. Not saying we should group up but in general try keeping an open mind that there are good players that can have smooth and clean runs despite the gear they are in.
I made a comment on another thread that I ran a elementalist in level 55 gear in Arah, runs always went smoothly I never died even on lupios. I did this for some time before I actually realized that my gear was 55. I admit the runs could have gone faster but the runs were all smooth and clean runs. That right there is the one proving factor that gear is not a great determining factor like other MMO’s out there and that is what I am trying to get people like you to understand. That when you have that crappy run it is not because of gear, I am sure you have had people come in your group with no MF gear and just new to the dungeon in greens. You tell them what is up and how the run is going to do, they listen and preform great no mistakes. In all essential aspects of the run it went smoothly no wipes no problems, even with the person in all greens, Minus the fact the run could have gone faster even your self admits that the run is probably a good run. This can and is true even with magic find, if a player knows the fights and what he is doing and knows what to avoid and where to stand or listens the run may be slower but in the end you can still have a clean run.
But you can’t base your opinion of every person in MF gear to that one person on reddit. That is one of thousands.
(edited by Kaimick.5109)
Also this MF issue is not a prisoners dilemma fyi the guy on reddit apparently doesn’t realize what the prisoners dilemma is. I think he saw the latest episode of Burn notice and said hey that sounds great lol.
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