Guild Wars 2

Hi,
I just want to point out that having no level requirement for FoTM is a really bad design. While I can choose to leave the group if I want (if there are very low levels in the group), it is still a waste of time to see some of these people try to get into FoTM groups.

I was just in a group, starting fractals on an alt, lvl 1(I know, not very hard), and a level 16 joined. When I asked about his level he said he did FoTM fine last night.

1. He probably has no head gear or shoulder gear
2. He probably has no runes
3. He probably has no sigils
4. He has..5 or 6 traits to speak of
5. He has maybe one utility slot
6. His health is upscaled to the bare minimum most likely.

This is recipe for disaster IMO. There should be at least a minimum requirement for fractals since they do take a bit more coordination and skill than your average dungeon. If a brand new player who hit, lets say, level 15 last night…wants to join a fractal but does not know how the game works with dungeons yet, and really doesn’t have a clue on his class, why should he be allowed to join a group?

Id say at least a minimum requirement, when you get your first elite skill(cannot remember what level that is, 30?). Id push for 80 because in my opinion the fractals are our current end game.

Thoughts?

Last thing we need is to start filling this game with level restrictions, especially not 80. Maybe 30 would be alright.

Up to fractal 9 I guess its ok to bring someone lower than 80, but bringing them to 10+ only gimps your group. They have no way to get AR and they have no use pre 80 for the rings or relics.

Even if its an alt to someone who has done it several times it still gimps the group, if someone wants gear for alts from fractals, do it on an 80 or something.

I sense it will turn into a much greater issue when the patch comes with dynamic fractal levels within the group. You can have a level 18 looking for a fractal 1 ending up in a fractal 30. I’m just glad there is a kick system.

Let me clarify(and not to sound elitist):

A very low level character, a level 16 warrior for example, should not even be able to enter a fractal. This is not being elitist, its realist. At that level you might have ONE utility slot, and a handful of traits. Even if that persons health is upscaled, we’ll be rezzing up all run. And lets not be naive, there are a lot of people that are not as “l33t” as you guys so to them, even low level fractals would be difficult. You know as well as I, that if you get one or two bad players in a fractal run, its hell even at lower levels. Hell, I remember I was around lvl 7, doing the powersuit boss. Kept telling the two people in my group to keep moving to the next lava dump. They stood there trying to “tank” him, etc etc. Mean while, he kept regenning all health and myself and the other 2 had to keep rezzing those guys because they kept dropping in seconds. This example has nothing to do with level requirement, just trying to point out that even at lower fractal levels its not always an easy run. All depends on your group, and allowing new low level players to enter the dungeon is recipe for disaster.

For fractals only, I really think there should be at least some sort of level requirement. At least 30. Hell, you can get to that level in a weekend.

The lower fractals are much more about doing the mechanics right than all the normal dungeons and as such a level shouldn’t be required. You have the right to not invite/kick if creating or request a kick or leave if joining a fractal run.

Deciding to not run fractals with a low level doesn’t make you n elitest, though refusing to run it with an non geared 80 does. However saying a minimum level requirement should be added is elitest. Why if a group wants to take a lowbie in should that be any problem of yours if you have the ability to leave the group and find another.

Just last week I ran a fractal 1 with my level 80 warrior, my fiance’s (who is not really a gamer) level 80 hunter, a level 80 mesmer (who had never been in fractals), a level 36 mesmer (who had never done fractals) and a level 26 guardian (who had done fractals a few times on his main). The whole 3 fractal run only took 1hr 10min, though we did use voice chat and were lucky on our fractal/path draws.

Why should he be allowed? Because it’s up to the rest of the group to decide whether they think they have a chance with him. Technically, everything but the best possible gear decreases your chance at completing certain content. Yes, your power increases faster at lower levels, which means the rate at which the chance of completing any given content increases is inversely proportional to the invested leveling a character. You want to find out if an averagely skilled player will be a liability at any given level and equipped gear? Get the best player you can find, tell him to level a character to the point you want to find out about, and do the content with him a few times. If he has any sort of problem with it, it’s probably safe to say that his equipment wasn’t good enough.

If you don’t want to go through all of the trouble, you can talk to the other members of your party and come to a consensus.

But as more and more of the population reaches max level, the bias towards demanding level 80s will for any given content will gradually increase. That’s just the way it is.

If you are a wise party maker, you would get a level 80. that means he is likely wearing the sufficient gear, traited and has enough grasp of the basic game mechanics already.

Its not even about being completely decked in exotics, or even rares. The level 16 does not even have a full bar of utilities or an elite skill. The level 16 might be a completely new player to the game, found out about fractals on the forums and is trying to get into a run. Disaster!

Yes, my choice to leave the group and find another, but sometimes it DOES take 10-20 minutes to find a fractal group your level.

I am not in favor of excluding low levels from the fractals. If they can find a group willing to take them (friends/guildies), they should be able to join.

cesmode.4257:

Yes, my choice to leave the group and find another, but sometimes it DOES take 10-20 minutes to find a fractal group your level.

Not allowing level 16s in the dungeon won’t get you a group any faster. Kick him and wait for an 80 if that is what you want. In a system where the level 16 is unable to join, you would have to wait anyway.

Should have a level requirement of 30 imo, so slots are unlocked

I’d look at the achievement points first. If he has like 3k+, that’s kinda a good indicator this isn’t his first char, and isn’t new to fractals or the game mechanics. but if it’s like… 300 or so, that’s really a recipe for disaster. Personally, a prereq to go to fractals is to read up on them, to know each fractal so that you know what you’re doing and you end up spending less time explaining and dying due to learning curves.

Ashanor.5319:

Last thing we need is to start filling this game with level restrictions, especially not 80. Maybe 30 would be alright.

Oh you mean like all the other dungeons in this game?

This is kinda a non-issue. Ive not EVER seen a character lower than 80 join in a fractal, let alone at the levels where agony resistance is needed.

The only thing I can see happening is people asking to see AR equipment before being accepted into parties. If you havent got the required AR then in my opinion youre not entitled to join those groups. The general rule is fractal level minus 5 for AR. If you want to go higher than your given AR should allow you to go then find a group that will allow that or make one yourself. This patch is here to make it so that people with similar AR resistance and experience can party together regardless of fractal level, not so that level 16s can go partying at F30. I personally have 25 AR….I know i’ll ‘gimp’ the team if I go in at F40 so i’ll wait until I have more AR.

I don’t think you need to limit it. If you don’t want to run with a low level, don’t do it. The low level fractals can be done by some pretty low level characters.

I did level 1 fractal on an alt the other day and the party’s levels were 24, 26, 62, 66, 80. It was a PUG and still went incredibly smooth because people were willing to listen to directions and work together. Hell, this group did far better than groups I’ve been in with all 80’s on similar level fractals.

Additionally, on a side note: Level 16 characters have two uSkill slots, not one like someone mentioned.

Xaaz.8472:

Phantax.1369:

What a load of elitist rubbish !

If it wasnt for the fact you’re obviously serious, Id accuse you of trolling !

Elitist rubbish? You people are disgusting. Yeah, a fully geared 80 should carry a level 16 though a fractal why exactly? I’d love to hear your argument on this.

Because this game isn’t about winning, it’s about having fun!!

/barf

couldn’t agree more, I have no problem helping someone who hasn’t done a dungeon before, but carrying people is not in my list of priorities.

Lvl 50 in an AC exp? cool.
Lvl 75 in my CoF? cool.
lvl 15 in my fractal group? uh no sorry, I think i’ll take an 80, thanks.

If this is wrong I don’t wanna be right.

While I think character level 30 would be reasonable for the slots, in the end it doesn’t really matter much.

Other than the day fractals were released, I don’t even recall any non 80s ending up in my groups.

And if someone sub 80 joined my group for a lev 30 difficulty fractal daily, I’d take them because that must be some seriously awesome player, most likely Chuck Norris on his alt.

Ashanor.5319:

Last thing we need is to start filling this game with level restrictions, especially not 80. Maybe 30 would be alright.

Exactly my thoughts. We already have discrimination of all types happening in the game.

He has to be level 80 to run with us.
He has to be wearing all exotics and runed to run with us.
He can’t be an engineer to run with us.

We don’t need anymore of these types ruining the community. I personally can’t wait for them to restore the rewards to the open world so we can end this nonsense and the elitists can continue their elitism not affecting anyone else but themselves.

Personally, I have no desire to run any dungeon with a pug that is not level 80. They could be fantastic players, but there is no way to determine this predungeon. Guildies and friends, on the other hand, are a different story! Creating an arbitrary restriction such as level 30 is pretty unnecessary in my opinion as you get to decide who you group with.

So lemme see if I understand pro-lvl 16-fractals puggers statements right….

You would rather carry someone and do an extra portion of work in an instance while they contribute little nothing at all instead of each party member pulling their fair share of the weight? And your reasoning behind this is “because it’s easy”??

O…..K……point made I guess, I just can’t wrap my head around people who want to gimp their party for some random person who couldn’t be bothered to put in the same effort you did to level their char (there are lots of quick lvl options avail tbh)

…..may I join your fractals and sit there just healing myself? Sounds about the same contribution a lvl 16 can achieve, and I can at least heal you with my boons. I’d like to get to lvl 30 on my lvl 10 guard plz, so uh, let’s get to beating that for me shall we?

Kaeden.6952:

So lemme see if I understand pro-lvl 16-fractals puggers statements right….

You would rather carry someone and do an extra portion of work in an instance while they contribute little nothing at all instead of each party member pulling their fair share of the weight? And your reasoning behind this is “because it’s easy”??

O…..K……point made I guess, I just can’t wrap my head around people who want to gimp their party for some random person who couldn’t be bothered to put in the same effort you did to level their char (there are lots of quick lvl options avail tbh)

…..may I join your fractals and sit there just healing myself? Sounds about the same contribution a lvl 16 can achieve, and I can at least heal you with my boons. I’d like to get to lvl 30 on my lvl 10 guard plz, so uh, let’s get to beating that for me shall we?

If a player is kitten, it makes no difference if they’re lvl 1 or 80, they’ll still be kitten. Remember that they are boosted up to lvl 80 while they’re in there, so it’s not like they’re not dealing any damage and get 1shot by everything.

Kaeden.6952:

So lemme see if I understand pro-lvl 16-fractals puggers statements right….

You would rather carry someone and do an extra portion of work in an instance while they contribute little nothing at all instead of each party member pulling their fair share of the weight? And your reasoning behind this is “because it’s easy”??

O…..K……point made I guess, I just can’t wrap my head around people who want to gimp their party for some random person who couldn’t be bothered to put in the same effort you did to level their char (there are lots of quick lvl options avail tbh)

…..may I join your fractals and sit there just healing myself? Sounds about the same contribution a lvl 16 can achieve, and I can at least heal you with my boons. I’d like to get to lvl 30 on my lvl 10 guard plz, so uh, let’s get to beating that for me shall we?

A lvl 16 person is leveled up to 80 when they enter the fractals. They may not have the gear or trait points, but they are still going to be able to dole out a notable portion of the group’s damage.

I’ve been in more than a few fractals groups with true level 80s who were completely worthless, and nothing more than drags on the team. That could happen at any level.

A lvl 16 with an ounce of common sense will be worth FAR more than a lot of the lvl 80s I’ve played with.

As was said above, I’d say as long as they have a skill or 2 I’d have no problem bringing them along until agony really becomes an issue. Fractals are not complicated at all and most have some stupid gimmick to them. If they can understand the fight I’d bring them along. There’s no DPS timer or anything to worry about.

Idc if people bring lvl 16’s to fracs with them, like I said I can’t just figure out why people would not even have the respect for other players to level up past 16 before going “ok! it’s time to take on Jade Maw.” This thinking boggles me even more-so when people go “it is fair that I do more work than this guy and we get the same reward.”

….maybe there is some more important/pressing content for that level 16 to do first, like, oh, I dunno, getting his/her second utility skill? XD

Downvote. Fractal dungeons are more about mechanics than stats/gear. I doubt having level 80 exotics really mean much when you’re a dolphin. The only thing it really slows down is the damage on boss fights (and even then, those have heavy mechanics over straight damage). It’s not like you’ll survive Jade Maw’s Care Bear Stare by being higher leveled.

If a level 1 character wants to do a low level fractal with his friends, I don’t see why we should stop him.

My guild recently ran fractal level 1.. we were able to complete two fractals with no problem.. had to cut it short on third.. Party was..

Guardian lvl 80, full exotics
Elementist lvl 80, full exotics
Engineer lvl 19
Warrior lvl 68

Just four of us.. The fractals we completed were Underwater and Cliffside.

Kaeden.6952:

Idc if people bring lvl 16’s to fracs with them, like I said I can’t just figure out why people would not even have the respect for other players to level up past 16 before going “ok! it’s time to take on Jade Maw.” This thinking boggles me even more-so when people go “it is fair that I do more work than this guy and we get the same reward.”

….maybe there is some more important/pressing content for that level 16 to do first, like, oh, I dunno, getting his/her second utility skill? XD

Again, players get their second utility skill at 10.

And people are saying that if you want to run with only 80’s that’s fine. You don’t have to run with 16’s. But don’t stop people that may want to run with 16’s from doing so.

Katai.6240:

Downvote. Fractal dungeons are more about mechanics than stats/gear. I doubt having level 80 exotics really mean much when you’re a dolphin. The only thing it really slows down is the damage on boss fights (and even then, those have heavy mechanics over straight damage). It’s not like you’ll survive Jade Maw’s Care Bear Stare by being higher leveled.

If a level 1 character wants to do a low level fractal with his friends, I don’t see why we should stop him.

because he doesn’t even have skills unlocked for it? I agree with the idea that a level 30 requirement would be good. After all it’s what AC requires.

Katai.6240:

If a level 1 character wants to do a low level fractal with his friends, I don’t see why we should stop him.

This is exactly my point. We shouldn’t stop them. However, I’ll be kitten if some internet forum warriors are going to tell me that it’s wrong to kick them out of a pug. Stick with your friends or your guildies if you want to join with a low level character. Don’t expect the 80’s to cater to your desire to run a fractal.

To the post further up about 2/3manning it. Big deal. Been there, done that. Bottom line is I’d rather 3 man it than bring low levels to fill out the party, most of the time it ends up being that anyway.

Are all 80’s capable? Far from it. However, I will take my chances that the 80 will outperform the 16. Again, my preference. Nothing elitist about it, which is why I added to the thread in the first place.

Xaaz.8472:

Katai.6240:

If a level 1 character wants to do a low level fractal with his friends, I don’t see why we should stop him.

This is exactly my point. We shouldn’t stop them. However, I’ll be kitten if some internet forum warriors are going to tell me that it’s wrong to kick them out of a pug. Stick with your friends or your guildies if you want to join with a low level character. Don’t expect the 80’s to cater to your desire to run a fractal.

To the post further up about 2/3manning it. Big deal. Been there, done that. Bottom line is I’d rather 3 man it than bring low levels to fill out the party, most of the time it ends up being that anyway.

Are all 80’s capable? Far from it. However, I will take my chances that the 80 will outperform the 16. Again, my preference. Nothing elitist about it, which is why I added to the thread in the first place.

I did not say I had seen people 2/3 manning it (though I have done that too). I’ve seen 5 people lvl 2 and 3, all light or medium armour, do it. Someone else posted the actual link. Your argument was that if a full group of low levels couldn’t do it, they have no right to join a lvl 80 group. The fact is, a full group of low levels can do it, and therefore (according to you) they should be able to join the 80s.

To me, Fractals are an endgame, level 80 affair. I’m sure it’s possible to clear some of them with lower levels, depending on player skill — but I don’t think it’s asking too much that someone be max level to join. If a level 16 character can join a Fractal run, that is a problem.

As an aside, the whole mechanic of upscaling/downscaling is not perfect. A level 80 being downscaled in Queensdale can utterly mop up any mobs effortlessly, whereas that cannot be said of someone whose character really is of that level. And vice versa — someone who’s upscaled to 80 still doesn’t have access to all the skills, traits, and capacity for stats. How does a non-existent helm or shoulder piece get upscaled, anyway? How do you upscale ZERO?

The minimum level for FOTM should definitely be 80, since the upscale feature does not adequately account for gear, traits, runes, skills, etc.

It’s not about elitism. It’s about the fact that the upscale feature does not do everything that it should do, which therefore makes a playing a sub-80 in FOTM unviable.

If low levels want to do fractals, that’s cool. I think it’s kinda rude to join pugs if you’re that low though. Sure that low level could be the best player ever…but I don’t know that. When you join a group, it isn’t just about you. There are 4 other people spending their time to do this. Its rude to expect them to risk wasting it on the off-chance the low level was good. When it comes to pugs, I’d rather take an 80 who would live through more hits if they do it wrong, then the lower level who won’t.

Just like I won’t do fractals until the fix the d/c issue. I sometimes have connection issues, and it’d be rude of me to waste their time on the chance I do d/c.

Edit: As a side note, does anyone have the numbers on the scaling? Obviously a 16 upscaled is nowhere near as strong as an 80, but exactly how much do they get upscaled?

Vayra.3290:

Xaaz.8472:

Katai.6240:

If a level 1 character wants to do a low level fractal with his friends, I don’t see why we should stop him.

This is exactly my point. We shouldn’t stop them. However, I’ll be kitten if some internet forum warriors are going to tell me that it’s wrong to kick them out of a pug. Stick with your friends or your guildies if you want to join with a low level character. Don’t expect the 80’s to cater to your desire to run a fractal.

To the post further up about 2/3manning it. Big deal. Been there, done that. Bottom line is I’d rather 3 man it than bring low levels to fill out the party, most of the time it ends up being that anyway.

Are all 80’s capable? Far from it. However, I will take my chances that the 80 will outperform the 16. Again, my preference. Nothing elitist about it, which is why I added to the thread in the first place.

I did not say I had seen people 2/3 manning it (though I have done that too). I’ve seen 5 people lvl 2 and 3, all light or medium armour, do it. Someone else posted the actual link. Your argument was that if a full group of low levels couldn’t do it, they have no right to join a lvl 80 group. The fact is, a full group of low levels can do it, and therefore (according to you) they should be able to join the 80s.

So because 1 group of well played low levels completed it, we should invite every low level character into our group? Not going to happen. There’s also videos of people soloing Arah. While that is an exceptionally played character, that certainly is not possible by most. Sure, you found a video of experienced fractal runner doing it on low level toons. Sure, that group should be allowed, the 1000’s of other low levels should not.

You can argue anything you want and it still won’t change my stance. I will never, ever allow a low level player in any fractal group I am running. It doesn;t matter if I am running a brand new 80 alt, I will kick all low level players as will the rest of my team and that’s even if we need to bother with a PuG, which usually will not be the case.

Don’t blame the players, blame the devs. They made the system, and encourage the system. If the devs wanted a community in game do you think they would have instituted fractals in the first place? A localized dungeon so people don’t have to go out into the world?

I’ve got a lvl 80 thief that is 20+ and I’ve run fractals like a billion times (I sometimes farm level 20 for gold since it’s like 3g+ per run). I find fractals fun since I’ve always been a dungeon runner.

I leveled a Guardian alt and was able to get up to level 10 (not actually doing 10) before I hit 80. I think I started doing them around level 20ish.

Now I would argue that my Guardian at level 20 was reasonably less effective than he is at 80 — that’s common sense. Keeping my gear current (each 5 levels) the scaling wasn’t too poor. I obviously didn’t have my elite skill available yet and my runes aren’t as nice (Shout build so Soldier runes at 80 are way better than when you are leveling).

Given all that information, would you still not want a lower level in your group if we are doing anything below level 5 fractals? I know all the fractals like the back of my hand and will be able to dodge most of the incoming damage since it’s regular routine. Not to mention a willingness to do more of the objectives (carry hammer / break seal, stand on buttons, light fires, etc) to somewhat make up for the lower level?

Usually when a group questions me when I’m on an alt I just link the 12213213 billion ascended rings sitting in my bank and they don’t care that I’m low level anymore