Revert some changes to mesmer

Revert some changes to mesmer

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Posted by: ddoi.9264

ddoi.9264

“…These skills must now be cast in line-of-sight of the target. These skills now behave as normal attacks that the mesmer must connect in order to summon the phantasm, and they will fail if the mesmer is blind or the ability is cast on an invulnerable target.”

Anet, you’ve gone too far with this severe nerf. The greatsword phantasm was attacking targets which were out of sight. It was a bug, and the fix is justified. However, everything else wasn’t. The only fix you had to make was to make sure iberserker fails to summon if not in line of sight.

Instead, you’ve given phantasm summoning skills all the disadvantages of behaving like a normal attack with none of the benefits.

Not only can phantasm skills be cancelled outright with no illusions summoned and full cooldown by dodge/block/invulnerability, but the extra disadvantage of phantasms being able to be killed before its attack is launched always made it a chance-based skill at best; no other classes’ skills suffer from this discrimination.

If a ranger shoots an arrow or a warrior swings the sword and it is not dodged/blocked/target has no invulnerability boons, then the attack connects and target takes damage. It will hit. Period. They don’t fail to cause damage when the attacker is attacked, the target has moved or goes out of range. If it hits, IT HITS.

Why should phantasm skills be any different now that it “behaves like a normal attack”? If the phantasm skill has sucessfully connected, then the phantasm should be rendered temporarily invulnerable so that it stays alive long enough for its first attack to hit and cause damage, just like a normal attack, period.

Oh, and this is all assuming line of sight works properly…and any class using ranged weapons can tell you how unreliable it is with “obstructed” popping up even when there’s a clear view of your target. Not only that, but the slightest elevation differences, objects and bumps in terrain are already sucessfully causing phantasm skills to fail.

Honestly, please, just send one dev to look at the mesmer forum for half an hour. Read through some of the new posts. It is obvious you guys have not given much thought about the latest changes for this class at all. Patch after patch there’s been nerf piled upon nerf to this class completely at the expense of PvE players with no consideration given at all outside PvP. It deserves a break.

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Posted by: GADefence.5634

GADefence.5634

Does this mean you can evade phantom summons now?

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Posted by: Torguish.4786

Torguish.4786

Does this mean you can evade phantom summons now?

Yes.

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Posted by: tqhx.2190

tqhx.2190

Fix the Phantasmal Berzerker!!! Why why why, my dps was just ok before, and now its just awful because my zerker spins around and nothing gets hit, or i get one tick for 500?? My only reliable damage skill now is Mind Wrack, thanks. We have 1 ability that causes a useful amount of damage now. Mesmers went from being very slightly OP if at all, to complete pushovers.

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Posted by: E Tan.7385

E Tan.7385

Does this mean you can evade phantom summons now?

Even before you was able to evade a sommoned phatom… LOL

how many time my berserker damage failed because my target was evading…

Seriously…

“we leave the grind to other MMOs.”
Mike Obrien
Legen – Wait for It – dary joke

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Posted by: GADefence.5634

GADefence.5634

“Even before you was able to evade a sommoned phatom… LOL”

I don’t mean that. I mean can you evade the summoning skill used to GET the phantom since it’s a regular attack – EX: Does summoning the phantom fail if you press 4 while someone is dodging?

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Posted by: Iruwen.3164

Iruwen.3164

Yes, unfortunately it does. Good luck trying to create an illusion on an invulnerable boss trying to increase your ether fest healing.

Iruwen Evillan, Human Mesmer on Drakkar Lake

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Posted by: tqhx.2190

tqhx.2190

Yes, unfortunately it does. Good luck trying to create an illusion on an invulnerable boss trying to increase your ether fest healing.

Yes, they have taken the entire idea behind the mesmer class, and made it impossible to use. You would think they could fix the LOS zerker issue, fine, but to make it so its hard to summon your primary source of DPS, Healing, well everything….sigh

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Posted by: Samiell.1259

Samiell.1259

I went up against a tank build guardian last night and failed miserably due to not being able to summon up only 1 phantasm and 2 clones the entire fight. I’ve never complained about changes and nerfs to a class or build. This, however is a fundamental change on how a GW2 Mesmer plays. Our damage comes from phantasms, utility from clones. If its just a Mesmer in a 1v1 with little to no clones or phantasms, we lose.
I just want to know if this Is what Anet was looking for with the change results or if it wasn’t . I went for a support build so I could heal in W3. Could hardly do that because I couldn’t keep clones up for their regen. So between clone/phantasm summoning changes and the new los change having such an odd effect on summoning. I’m pretty much out of ideas.
Sorry gang but my favorite thing about this game ( play style of the Mesmer ) has been ruined. Fundamental changes to a class were not needed. If it gets any better or is changed back, I’ll be back. Outside I that, I’m done with this game.

Black Ops supply line disruptions.

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Posted by: Runiir.6425

Runiir.6425

Seriously, this isn’t broken. You realize your phantoms are considered ATTACKS. Your opponant dies and it is destroyed. It is an attack. It isn’t a fully formed pet. There is no reason for you to whine, be more careful in when you use them like every other class has to with their attacks.

A mesmer is not a damage class. You are not ment to cause big numbers without a lot of effort or build up time (our best damage comes from staff equiped, one clone, 2 warlock phantoms…or put 3 locks up on a large boss figh tlike a dragon and you push numbers no one else can touch).

The mesmer is a “build up” damage individual. The class has no honest spikes, it is a wear down with constant barrage of attacks and misdirections. Even with the change I have little trouble dealing with people 1 on 1. That being what the class is designed to do (hence why they have been known as “duelists”…a duel being 1 on 1).

The class is designed for misdirection, not damage. Out think your opponant while dealing lesser damage and still rip them apart with a death of a thousand cuts.

If you wanted to do spike damage or aoe damage regularly…you chose the wrong class. The mesmer is a duelist, a 1 on 1 fighter and a great class to use to confuse a group untill backup arrives.

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Posted by: ddoi.9264

ddoi.9264

Runiir, you are missing the point. If they are ATTACKS, then why don’t they ACT LIKE IT. Phantasms can connect yet still do 0 damage because it can be killed before it does. No other attack in the game gives you a chance to avoid damage after the attack connects. If the skill hits, you get damaged. Simple as that.

Besides, calling phantasm skills mere attacks is a severe understatement considering how many utilities, traits and skills are tied to the number of illusions mesmers has put up. It is so much more. Shatters, clone on death, bonuses depending on number of illusions…it is the identity of a mesmer, and this is simply a completely unwarranted nerf.

Attacks failing to connect on other classes results in loss of dps and that’s it. Maybe some loss of a few boons/cc’s that could’ve been applied. Failure to summon an illusion for mesmers on the other hand means:

*less heal – ether feast
*less damage – mind wrack, cry of frustration, compounding power
*less cc – diversion, debilitating dissipation, crippling dissipation
*less defense – diversion, illusionary defense
*less utility – iWarden projectile reflection, cripple on phantasmal berserker
*etc

The list goes on. The new penalties imposed on mesmers for phantasm skills not connecting is far too great with this patch. The attack connecting and phantasm being summoned should’ve been kept separate. For example if you summoned a phantasmal swordsman while being blinded, the phantasm’s attack would miss. But the phantasm would still actually be summoned.

Can you imagine a warrior using hundred blades stop swinging as soon as the skill begins just because the first swing was blocked? Or an elementalist failing to cast meteor shower for its duration and going on full cooldown just because the first fireball was dodged? Does a necomancer’s well disappear instantly if you happened to be invulnerable as it was applied? Doesn’t make much sense does it?

tl;dr, Damage from phantasm skills were able to be avoided through dodge/block/invulnerability/death of said phantasm before patch, and it should’ve stayed that way. It was perfectly fine. Illusions not being summoned at all on top of that by said methods, no.

Yes, you may still be doing well in PvP. More power to you. But what about PvE? There’s so much more to this game than 1 on 1 and mesmers should not have to be pigeon holed into a ‘build up’ build…which by the way was nerfed, with the increase in iwarlock cooldown and attack intervals.

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Posted by: Runiir.6425

Runiir.6425

ddoi…I know MANY warriors would wish hundred blades did stop the moment you missed just so they wouldn’t keep doing the animation while gettign ripped apart from behind or from outside the conal attack range.

I pvp with mine, my girl pve’s with her’s and has almost zero problems. The mesmer is not and was never intended as, a dps. You are a support class. Designed from the ground up to help out with a group. A solo mesmer is the weakest class in the game when it comes to damage…by design. You also have more ways to confuse/interact/effect a battlefield to your side’s favor than any other class.

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Posted by: ddoi.9264

ddoi.9264

I just bought a greatsword on my lvl 80 warrior, used hundred blades and pushed the movement keys and the skill stopped instantly long before the full animation finished. What exactly is the problem…? Are people really so dense they didn’t try pressing some keys, or does the skill work differently in pvp?

And I don’t understand why you’re bringing up dps potential of mesmers; that’s not the problem I’m addressing. It’s phantasms failing to summon due to the damage failing to connect. Other skills execute their full function whether target has been hit or not.

(edited by ddoi.9264)

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Posted by: Ryuujin.8236

Ryuujin.8236

Ok let me explain in greater deal so all the non mesmers can understand, and hopefully the devs can understand what has gone wrong here in clean concise terms; so cast aside your preconceptions about this being a DPS arguement or just mesmers whining.

Class mechanic resource
All classes have a resource that is associated with their class mechanic. Rangers have a pet they double team with and the pet is traited and controleld to further boost the effectiveness of the pair, warrior build adrenaline and there are traits that give additional benefits such as high defence when adrenaline is high. Thieves are based on initiative and their traits and skills revolve heavily around it.

Mesmer’s class abilities use illusions as their resource. Mesmers are semi unique (along with rangers) in that their “resource” can be directly attacked by an opponent to deny them access to it. The problem with the nerfs is that now not only can you destroy teh resource, but you can deny the mesmer even generating it, simply by having aegis up or blinding them.

Phantasms as attacks, not pets
The next thing is the common misconception of phantasms being “pets”. Mesmers do not summon illusions like minions, they are an exotic single target attack, they deal damage comparable to any other classes heavy hitting primary attack and most mesmers don’t expect a phantasm to live long enough to hit twice, to all intents and purposes a phantasm is foremost an attack and secondly it generates a point of their class resource to then convert into a shatter or defensive ability.

When a warrior drops his hundreds blades, or a thief drops unload blind or aegis only blocks the first hit. But when a mesmer uses a multi-hit phantasm, say iWarden or iZerker, if he is blinded all the damage from the phantasm is mitigated and he also loses his class resource. it’s like blind stopping an entire HB barrage and then killing his adrenaline.

Not only this, but the failed attack goes onto a full cooldown cycle afterward!

Illusions as utilities
Not all illusion spells are offensive. iWarden can be traited to behave as a missile shield, iDefender provides AoE damage mitigation, iDisenchanter provides anti-boon/anti-condition support.

However since these require a target to be summoned, blinds and blocks prevent the mesmer using an on self utility spell (imagine thieves reaction if they wern’t allowed to use shadow refuge while blinded xD). Furthermore many illusions can be traited to provide additional benefits to the mesmer like regeneration and protection when in close proximity, in much the same way engineers can be traited for regen and swiftness while using a kit, again these on-self traits can be blocked with obscure things like blind, block or even a dodge roll.

Very unpredictable.

In summary
The nerfs however well intentioned have ended up being farther reaching than I think arenanet intended. Mesmers are punished to an extreme degree by conditions that do not affect any other class nearly as harshly; to compare it to another classes mechanics, it’d be like making a warrior lose all adrenaline, and completely interuppt his entire next skill, (even if it was a multi-strike skill like HB), AND deny him the ability to use his warbanners simply because his current target has aegis up.

My suggestion
Make blind/block/daze/dodge etc affect both mesmer and phantasms. If the mesmer is blinded, his phantasms are blinded; in the same way a ranger blinded can’t shoot you, a mesmer blinded can’t “shoot” you with his illusory ranged attacks, while at the same time not taking away their ability to build resource points or cast utilities

The Ashwalker – Ranger
Garnished Toast

(edited by Ryuujin.8236)

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

Nice post by Ryuujin. I agree completely with the background and the summary of the issue.

Also props to the OP for bringing up the issue and for reminding everyone that one of the changes did fix a skill that was working improperly, i.e. not all the changes were bad.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: ddoi.9264

ddoi.9264

Devs, please disregard my opening post and focus on the above post by Ryuujin. It is exactly the point a lot of people are trying to get across and couldn’t have been made more clear.

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Posted by: Senadgar.9360

Senadgar.9360

I have to say, I fully, 100% agree with this post. I love my mesmer, proabaly my favorite class with the Guardian right under it. This change had a massive amount of far reaching effects for me just as ddoi.9264, and Ryuujin.8236 have described. In PvE, it was…odd playing my mesmer tonight. On many bosses I couldn’t even summon a phantasm because it was insta blocked, or I got blinded. The phantasm should still summon…I thought half the issue with mesmers was to make a target decide, should I attack the phantasm thats going to keep hurting me, or attack the mesmer. As of this change, its block the phantasm or blind the mesmer, no phantasm kill the mesmer. (Im really sleepy hope that made sense, just wanted to put my 2cents in.)

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Posted by: Phloww.1048

Phloww.1048

I know I’ve posted on another thread about ideas of different phantasm function, but I agree with ddoi.9264 and Ryuujin.8236. However, I think the devs are trying to force us to use clones more than phantasms since they hardly touch anything with clones in this patch. While we do generate clones more often than phantasms, phantasms help us in damage, control, and support. Nerfing the phantasms like this is practically making us partially handicapped. I love the mesmer in GW1 and love playing as my mesmer in GW2. If this nerf is intended, at least decrease the recharge of phantasms to like 10 secs or something. Maybe make phantasm our pet and have only 1 active at a time or perhaps make all phantasms as utilities instead. I’m sure there are many of us who are not happy with this patch change and wanted it revert prior to the patch or something better.

I know right now, the main thing seems to be the Lost Shores events, so I can understand not responding right away, but I hope for responses and fixes to our phantasms real soon.

P.S. – Thank you, Karl, for taking the time to provide us info among this mayhem. Hopefully, you or others may shed some more light on this shortly. ^^

(edited by Phloww.1048)