Guild Wars 2

Removing Quickness and Stealth from finishing opponents would completely unbalance Thief. Thieves CAN’T finish people reliably without those abilities. We are extremely squishy, and we have a hard time finishing people if they have teammates around even with these tools. If you took them away, then Thieves would not be able to finish people after downing them, which would not be balanced.

I think the post revolves around finishing downed players when in stealth but if you think about it, the downed skills still work. Guardian knockback still knocks you back, Necro fear still fears, thief teleport still teleports, engineer still launches you. Most downed skills have some sort of defensive AoE so being stealth or not it doesn’t make you any less effective. You either get lucky and kill off a low hp target to rally or channel a heal that gets interupted if you get hit. Not many options regardless of the enemy being invisible or not.

Wraith.9426:

Removing Quickness and Stealth from finishing opponents would completely unbalance Thief. Thieves CAN’T finish people reliably without those abilities. We are extremely squishy, and we have a hard time finishing people if they have teammates around even with these tools. If you took them away, then Thieves would not be able to finish people after downing them, which would not be balanced.

You may want to try to play something else than a thief before posting such nonsense. If thieves are squishy while finishing people, what should cloth wearers say?
We understand it’s hard to lose some OP abilities, some people are just happy to be able to faceroll people, but for the sake of balance, some thief abilities need urgent modifications. And the ability to finish people while invisible and quickened is one of those.

Korrigan.4837:

Wraith.9426:

Removing Quickness and Stealth from finishing opponents would completely unbalance Thief. Thieves CAN’T finish people reliably without those abilities. We are extremely squishy, and we have a hard time finishing people if they have teammates around even with these tools. If you took them away, then Thieves would not be able to finish people after downing them, which would not be balanced.

You may want to try to play something else than a thief before posting such nonsense. If thieves are squishy while finishing people, what should cloth wearers say?
We understand it’s hard to lose some OP abilities, some people are just happy to be able to faceroll people, but for the sake of balance, some thief abilities need urgent modifications. And the ability to finish people while invisible and quickened is one of those.

did you know that necro and mesmer have higher base health than the thief? did you know the necro has a freaking second health bar, and that the mesmer can have 3 NPCs looking exactly like him around, as well as THAT DAZING DUELIST providing cover for his stomp?

did you know eles have a bunch of invulnerability and stability skills to choose from, or can just nuke a downed player from a distance?

maybe YOU should try playing a different class, say, thief, and see how well you fare with a melee class with 16k health at most.

You guys are being silly.

Eles can stomp in mist form, any class can stomp with stability. In fact, anyone can stomp stealthed if there’s an aoe stealth around. With smart players, that’s not terribly unlikely- assuming the group synergizes well, ofc.

Anyways, yeah sure whatever stealth stomps are annoying. Know what else is? When they’re downed and teleport away. When eles vapor form away. When warriors just get right back up. When you run into any class with quickness, whether they’re stomping or not.

If you want to take away stealth finishing from thieves, you better keep in mind that everyone should also want the same treatment applied to other classes.

agree because it kills the idea of downed state which should grant chance of survival

Wraith.9426:

Removing Quickness and Stealth from finishing opponents would completely unbalance Thief. Thieves CAN’T finish people reliably without those abilities. We are extremely squishy, and we have a hard time finishing people if they have teammates around even with these tools. If you took them away, then Thieves would not be able to finish people after downing them, which would not be balanced.

Moot argument.

If you can down a player from stealth before they can react to it, they are even squsiher then you.

This is besides the point anyway, the whole point here is, you cannot execute any skills while downed when the Thief is stealthed, you cannot even trigger your knockbacks if you have them or your teleports. ALL of these skills require a target and even if you have them as AoE’s, Quickness + Finish Them! triggers before the cast bar completes.

Most people with half a brain will agree, we can live with the fact that Thiefs can burst someone into a downed state from Stealth, being able to stealth up right after and Finish Them! is just over board.

Dreleth.3647:

Other classes can stomp people while invulnerable. While stealthed, you can still be knocked away, knocked down, or interrupted.

There is nothing wrong with stealth stomping, and usually the thief has to be careful when doing it too.

Thief can get Stability benefits just like any other class plus Stealth + Quickness combo.

You can still target everyone else when downed, you cannot target a Thief when stealthed. you need to target a player to execute skills unless they are ground based. (AoE’s, PBAoE’s)

Since the general theme here seems to be “give the downed player a real second chance”, maybe when trying to finish a downed player stealth/mist form/etc is dropped for the target of Finish Them! only.

So the downed player gets to target the finisher and try their downed skills on them, but they can’t announce them as a target and no one else can see/target the finisher any differently.

codiac.5642:

Since the general theme here seems to be “give the downed player a real second chance”, maybe when trying to finish a downed player stealth/mist form/etc is dropped for the target of Finish Them! only.

So the downed player gets to target the finisher and try their downed skills on them, but they can’t announce them as a target and no one else can see/target the finisher any differently.

I agree to a certain extent.

In my opinion, I think that Finish Them! moves just shoud be greyed out when in stealth/mist/etc form and only light up for use when not in it.

Pretty simple fix imho.

LOL, had an army of 7 Thiefs just now running around as a team, decimating everything in thier path……yes it is a skewed example when stacking characters like this and doesn’t show a true result, however, try dealing with that and see how you go.

Quite funny to watch when they can successfully lock down 20+ people.

That’s how it goes in a lot of cases spanning from other games to RL. A small group of dedicated people with a specific make-up/goal in mind will always have an advantage over a somewhat larger group of less organized individuals.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Taemek.1602:

Dreleth.3647:

Other classes can stomp people while invulnerable. While stealthed, you can still be knocked away, knocked down, or interrupted.

There is nothing wrong with stealth stomping, and usually the thief has to be careful when doing it too.

Thief can get Stability benefits just like any other class plus Stealth + Quickness combo.

You can still target everyone else when downed, you cannot target a Thief when stealthed. you need to target a player to execute skills unless they are ground based. (AoE’s, PBAoE’s)

really? i have yet to see that stability thief skill. the only one they have is dagger storm, and good luck stomping with that.

stealth still takes damage, stealth is still affected by AoE. thief has stealth. other classes have immunity to damage, or immunity to crowd control, which are both much stronger features to be used when stomping than stealth. an ele using mist form or armor of earth is much more likely to down you than a stealthed thief. a warrior with stability and endure pain, same thing. a guardian with AoE stability shout, same thing. and so on.

contrary to popular belief, being stealthed doesn’t mean you’re immortal. i seriously recommend anyone complaining about the thief to give it a serious shot. see if it’s all as easy as you think it is.

Other classes can buff other classes.

Again, your whole tone is way out of context and of topic.

The issue is, you need a target to execute downed abilities. The whole mechanic behind downed is a chance at a second chance. This is removed and trivilized by stealth when you cannot target a target to execute skills to apply the mechanic of second chance.

Taemek.1602:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Taemek.1602:

Dreleth.3647:

Other classes can stomp people while invulnerable. While stealthed, you can still be knocked away, knocked down, or interrupted.

There is nothing wrong with stealth stomping, and usually the thief has to be careful when doing it too.

Thief can get Stability benefits just like any other class plus Stealth + Quickness combo.

You can still target everyone else when downed, you cannot target a Thief when stealthed. you need to target a player to execute skills unless they are ground based. (AoE’s, PBAoE’s)

really? i have yet to see that stability thief skill. the only one they have is dagger storm, and good luck stomping with that.

stealth still takes damage, stealth is still affected by AoE. thief has stealth. other classes have immunity to damage, or immunity to crowd control, which are both much stronger features to be used when stomping than stealth. an ele using mist form or armor of earth is much more likely to down you than a stealthed thief. a warrior with stability and endure pain, same thing. a guardian with AoE stability shout, same thing. and so on.

contrary to popular belief, being stealthed doesn’t mean you’re immortal. i seriously recommend anyone complaining about the thief to give it a serious shot. see if it’s all as easy as you think it is.

Other classes can buff other classes.

so what are you telling me is that the only way the thief should be able to stomp people like the other classes do is if someone else helps him?

yeah, great idea. everyone can pop instability or invulnerability, but the thief? HA, find someone to buff you instead.

and right back at ya: stealth can be countered by AoEs and knockbacks, unlike invul/stability. get some friends to help you.

please, PLEASE think before you complain. thief stealth is good at stomping lonely players that don’t have an AoE counter (like guardian’s) or an escape skill (like ele’s). meanwhile, other classes have skills that are better at stomping in every other possible scenario, including group fights, and are just as good as stealth against the specific example up there.

Taemek.1602:

The issue is, you need a target to execute downed abilities. The whole mechanic behind downed is a chance at a second chance. This is removed and trivilized by stealth when you cannot target a target to execute skills to apply the mechanic of second chance.

tell me, what’s the difference between not being able to target, and being able to target and not do damage to it? i’ll tell you the difference. on the former, an AoE (like guardian downed 2) works. on the latter, it doesn’t.

so, for the 20th time: the thief’s ability to effectively stomp someone is WORSE than everyone else’s.

on PvP, you won’t down someone and then kill them during downed state. you have to keep the enemy from stomping you while your allies deal with him and you. and the thief’s only counter to “friends” is pretending he’s not really there. everyone else can just trigger superman mode and stomp you, not even a whole team of hammer guardians can do anything about it.

I completely support this thread. This feature would be great if it wasn’t “Thief Wars 2”, but considering the sheer number of thieves in PvP matches and WvW… the imbalance of being able to finish someone while being completely untouchable really starts to show.

Tolmos.8395:

I completely support this thread. This feature would be great if it wasn’t “Thief Wars 2”, but considering the sheer number of thieves in PvP matches and WvW… the imbalance of being able to finish someone while being completely untouchable really starts to show.

you’re not untouchable. untouchable is armor of earth. untouchable is mist form. untouchable is endure pain. untouchable is save yourselves.

untouchable is not stealth. stealth is very much touchable.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Taemek.1602:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Taemek.1602:

Dreleth.3647:

Other classes can stomp people while invulnerable. While stealthed, you can still be knocked away, knocked down, or interrupted.

There is nothing wrong with stealth stomping, and usually the thief has to be careful when doing it too.

Thief can get Stability benefits just like any other class plus Stealth + Quickness combo.

You can still target everyone else when downed, you cannot target a Thief when stealthed. you need to target a player to execute skills unless they are ground based. (AoE’s, PBAoE’s)

really? i have yet to see that stability thief skill. the only one they have is dagger storm, and good luck stomping with that.

stealth still takes damage, stealth is still affected by AoE. thief has stealth. other classes have immunity to damage, or immunity to crowd control, which are both much stronger features to be used when stomping than stealth. an ele using mist form or armor of earth is much more likely to down you than a stealthed thief. a warrior with stability and endure pain, same thing. a guardian with AoE stability shout, same thing. and so on.

contrary to popular belief, being stealthed doesn’t mean you’re immortal. i seriously recommend anyone complaining about the thief to give it a serious shot. see if it’s all as easy as you think it is.

Other classes can buff other classes.

so what are you telling me is that the only way the thief should be able to stomp people like the other classes do is if someone else helps him?

yeah, great idea. everyone can pop instability or invulnerability, but the thief? HA, find someone to buff you instead.

and right back at ya: stealth can be countered by AoEs and knockbacks, unlike invul/stability. get some friends to help you.

please, PLEASE think before you complain. thief stealth is good at stomping lonely players that don’t have an AoE counter (like guardian’s) or an escape skill (like ele’s). meanwhile, other classes have skills that are better at stomping in every other possible scenario, including group fights, and are just as good as stealth against the specific example up there.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Taemek.1602:

The issue is, you need a target to execute downed abilities. The whole mechanic behind downed is a chance at a second chance. This is removed and trivilized by stealth when you cannot target a target to execute skills to apply the mechanic of second chance.

tell me, what’s the difference between not being able to target, and being able to target and not do damage to it? i’ll tell you the difference. on the former, an AoE (like guardian downed 2) works. on the latter, it doesn’t.

so, for the 20th time: the thief’s ability to effectively stomp someone is WORSE than everyone else’s.

on PvP, you won’t down someone and then kill them during downed state. you have to keep the enemy from stomping you while your allies deal with him and you. and the thief’s only counter to “friends” is pretending he’s not really there. everyone else can just trigger superman mode and stomp you, not even a whole team of hammer guardians can do anything about it.

You are still missing the basic concept behind downed, second chance. Being stealth and stomping someone who cannot target you/others is removing that chance and trivializing defeat.

You can throw as many sceanrios at it as you like, the fact remains that stealth/mist/etc trivialize Finish Them!.

Be happy that your Thief is as powerful as it is for a burst class, it doesn’t need this as well. As others have pointed out, if they remove the ability for a Thief to stealth stomp, they have alternative ways of finishing someone in 1 second anyways. So whats the issue?

Taemek.1602:

You are still missing the basic concept behind downed, second chance. Being stealth and stomping someone who cannot target you/others is removing that chance and trivializing defeat.

You can throw as many sceanrios at it as you like, the fact remains that stealth/mist/etc trivialize Finish Them!.

Be happy that your Thief is as powerful as it is for a burst class, it doesn’t need this as well. As others have pointed out, if they remove the ability for a Thief to stealth stomp, they have alternative ways of finishing someone in 1 second anyways. So whats the issue?

what part of “other players can still damage you” did you not get?

what part of “every class but thief can put stability on to stomp the enemy” didn’t you get?

what part of “half the classes have actual immunity skills they can pop to stomp the enemy, and thief is not one of them” didn’t you get?

what part of “in PvP you’ll never rally by attacking a standing player with downed skills by yourself” didn’t you get?

in fact, did you even read my posts?

oh, and one last thing.

“Be happy that your Thief is as powerful as it is for a burst class, it doesn’t need this as well. As others have pointed out, if they remove the ability for a Thief to stealth stomp, they have alternative ways of finishing someone in 1 second anyways.” no they can’t. they spent all their resources taking you down (remember? thief has energy management and the pool is shared by both sets), so what little initiative he has left he’d rather save for the next battle than waste on a downed player, because no one likes being a sitting duck for 20 seconds in a PvP match.

just try playing a thief and see how long you fare by following all this handy advice you’re getting. pretend there’s no way to stealth yourself when stomping, try killing enemies by attacking them when they’re downed. see how you’ll watch that same enemy dance over your dead body instead.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Taemek.1602:

You are still missing the basic concept behind downed, second chance. Being stealth and stomping someone who cannot target you/others is removing that chance and trivializing defeat.

You can throw as many sceanrios at it as you like, the fact remains that stealth/mist/etc trivialize Finish Them!.

Be happy that your Thief is as powerful as it is for a burst class, it doesn’t need this as well. As others have pointed out, if they remove the ability for a Thief to stealth stomp, they have alternative ways of finishing someone in 1 second anyways. So whats the issue?

what part of “other players can still damage you” did you not get?

what part of “every class but thief can put stability on to stomp the enemy” didn’t you get?

what part of “half the classes have actual immunity skills they can pop to stomp the enemy, and thief is not one of them” didn’t you get?

what part of “in PvP you’ll never rally by attacking a standing player with downed skills by yourself” didn’t you get?

in fact, did you even read my posts?

I did read it but I am choosing to ignore you from here due to you still not participating with the topic at hand and trying to cover the whole issue up with blanket statements that make your class look underpowered.

You are simply dancing around the mechanic of downed, which is, second chance. Thiefs can trivialize a stealth Finish Them! move every encounter, where other classes have to wait minutes to do it again.

BrunoBRS.5178:

oh, and one last thing.

“Be happy that your Thief is as powerful as it is for a burst class, it doesn’t need this as well. As others have pointed out, if they remove the ability for a Thief to stealth stomp, they have alternative ways of finishing someone in 1 second anyways.” no they can’t. they spent all their resources taking you down (remember? thief has energy management and the pool is shared by both sets), so what little initiative he has left he’d rather save for the next battle than waste on a downed player, because no one likes being a sitting duck for 20 seconds in a PvP match.

just try playing a thief and see how long you fare by following all this handy advice you’re getting. pretend there’s no way to stealth yourself when stomping, try killing enemies by attacking them when they’re downed. see how you’ll watch that same enemy dance over your dead body instead.

Well, you must be the only thief who plays with a build that does not return iniative…….every pvp encounter I have been involved in regardless if it is sPvP or WvW, Thiefs almost always try to stealth Finish Them!, 1 person out of the picture is less people to deal with and if you can sneak in an Finish Them! move undetected, then people will do it, hell I will admit, even I have been known to do it on occasion.

This is my last post to you Bruno, so keep on drawing up those sceanrios that barely anyone uses.

Taemek.1602:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Taemek.1602:

You are still missing the basic concept behind downed, second chance. Being stealth and stomping someone who cannot target you/others is removing that chance and trivializing defeat.

You can throw as many sceanrios at it as you like, the fact remains that stealth/mist/etc trivialize Finish Them!.

Be happy that your Thief is as powerful as it is for a burst class, it doesn’t need this as well. As others have pointed out, if they remove the ability for a Thief to stealth stomp, they have alternative ways of finishing someone in 1 second anyways. So whats the issue?

what part of “other players can still damage you” did you not get?

what part of “every class but thief can put stability on to stomp the enemy” didn’t you get?

what part of “half the classes have actual immunity skills they can pop to stomp the enemy, and thief is not one of them” didn’t you get?

what part of “in PvP you’ll never rally by attacking a standing player with downed skills by yourself” didn’t you get?

in fact, did you even read my posts?

I did read it but I am choosing to ignore you from here due to you still not participating with the topic at hand and trying to cover the whole issue up with blanket statements that make your class look underpowered.

You are simply dancing around the mechanic of downed, which is, second chance. Thiefs can trivialize a stealth Finish Them! move every encounter, where other classes have to wait minutes to do it again.

i’m starting to think you ignored me from the beginning.

i never said thief was underpowered. thief would become underpowered, though, were ANet to listen to you and remove the only thing keeping thieves on a level playing field with other classes when stomping a downed player.

i’m contributing to the topic. i’m disagreeing with it, and that’s a contribution. i’m pointing out that were you to remove stealth from stomping, then every class in the game would have to lose stability, immunity, mist form, or whatever have you.

it’s not a thief thing. stealth trivializes downed state no more than save yourselves does. or are you going to say that Aegis and stability should also be removed when you’re stomping a player?

Taemek.1602:

BrunoBRS.5178:

oh, and one last thing.

“Be happy that your Thief is as powerful as it is for a burst class, it doesn’t need this as well. As others have pointed out, if they remove the ability for a Thief to stealth stomp, they have alternative ways of finishing someone in 1 second anyways.” no they can’t. they spent all their resources taking you down (remember? thief has energy management and the pool is shared by both sets), so what little initiative he has left he’d rather save for the next battle than waste on a downed player, because no one likes being a sitting duck for 20 seconds in a PvP match.

just try playing a thief and see how long you fare by following all this handy advice you’re getting. pretend there’s no way to stealth yourself when stomping, try killing enemies by attacking them when they’re downed. see how you’ll watch that same enemy dance over your dead body instead.

Well, you must be the only thief who plays with a build that does not return iniative…….every pvp encounter I have been involved in regardless if it is sPvP or WvW, Thiefs almost always try to stealth Finish Them!, 1 person out of the picture is less people to deal with and if you can sneak in an Finish Them! move un detected, then people will do it, hell I will admit, even I have been known to do it on occasion.

This is my last post to you Bruno, so keep on drawing up those sceanrios that barely anyone uses.

yeah, the scenario of “more than just two people in PvP” is a really unlikely one.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Taemek.1602:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Taemek.1602:

You are still missing the basic concept behind downed, second chance. Being stealth and stomping someone who cannot target you/others is removing that chance and trivializing defeat.

You can throw as many sceanrios at it as you like, the fact remains that stealth/mist/etc trivialize Finish Them!.

Be happy that your Thief is as powerful as it is for a burst class, it doesn’t need this as well. As others have pointed out, if they remove the ability for a Thief to stealth stomp, they have alternative ways of finishing someone in 1 second anyways. So whats the issue?

what part of “other players can still damage you” did you not get?

what part of “every class but thief can put stability on to stomp the enemy” didn’t you get?

what part of “half the classes have actual immunity skills they can pop to stomp the enemy, and thief is not one of them” didn’t you get?

what part of “in PvP you’ll never rally by attacking a standing player with downed skills by yourself” didn’t you get?

in fact, did you even read my posts?

I did read it but I am choosing to ignore you from here due to you still not participating with the topic at hand and trying to cover the whole issue up with blanket statements that make your class look underpowered.

You are simply dancing around the mechanic of downed, which is, second chance. Thiefs can trivialize a stealth Finish Them! move every encounter, where other classes have to wait minutes to do it again.

i’m starting to think you ignored me from the beginning.

i never said thief was underpowered. thief would become underpowered, though, were ANet to listen to you and remove the only thing keeping thieves on a level playing field with other classes when stomping a downed player.

i’m contributing to the topic. i’m disagreeing with it, and that’s a contribution. i’m pointing out that were you to remove stealth from stomping, then every class in the game would have to lose stability, immunity, mist form, or whatever have you.

it’s not a thief thing. stealth trivializes downed state no more than save yourselves does. or are you going to say that Aegis and stability should also be removed when you’re stomping a player?

I know, I know, I said last post, but this needs to be addressed.

You can still target these poeple and ethier teleport away out of range of the Finish Them! if your class has that skill or what ever other skills you have use of.

Again, you cannot do this with a stealthed Thief for obvious reasons.

As I mentioned earlier, stealth/mist/etc need to be greyed out Finish Them! buttons until you remove yourself from that condition. Simple.

Taemek.1602:

Kaizer.7135:

Ummmm NO, Thief’s can be downed by another player in downed. We need stealth, if we didn’t have it we could just Quickness>Heartseeker spam which kills about 1 sec more than the “FINISH HIM” animation

lol?

No. There’s nothing funny about getting hit for alot by downed players.

Kaizer.7135:

Taemek.1602:

Kaizer.7135:

Ummmm NO, Thief’s can be downed by another player in downed. We need stealth, if we didn’t have it we could just Quickness>Heartseeker spam which kills about 1 sec more than the “FINISH HIM” animation

lol?

No. There’s nothing funny about getting hit for alot by downed players.

I agree, I was laughing about having the ability to finish someone off almost as fast as Finish Them!.

Agreed. Finishing in downed status should be rightfully equal to everyone. Nothing should affect it.

I’ve seen far too many decent players at the mercy of the thief’s stealthed finishing blows. Infact i’d go as far in saying people exploit this in so many ways. In such a way that thiefs can down any chosen target in a matter of seconds within a group, stealth and finish leaving the group dumbfounded.

I don’t understand how moving your hands up to the sky then immediately striking down for a finish be considered ‘stealthy’. Especially when there’s a bright white magical thing at your hand during the execution of the finishing move. How is that in anyway relating to the ability of a stealth? It doesn’t.

What did people suddenly turn a blind eye and look away?

Stealth does not mean immune.
People seem to forget that.
Guardians will stop us from stealth-finishing.
Eles will stop us from stealth-finishing.
Thieves will stop us from stealth-finishing.
Aiming in the general direction of the thief will stop him with all other classes (maybe with the exception of necro and ranger.)

Let’s take a look at Ele’s mistform, and warrior/guardian stability.
Good. Now we’ve realized that stealth-stomping isn’t even half as threatening as those 3.
We’ve also realized that stealth-stomping is one of the few things thieves are good at and should be able to. I agree with quickness that shouldn’t affect the cast-time. Stealth shouldn’t drop though. We’re squishy enough as is, we don’t need to be even more squishy.

Ok let’s have a look here: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_downed_skills

Assuming you are a plank and run around solo in WvW or 8v8 PvP let us see what a player can do.

Thief: Teleport away.
Mesmer: Make a bunch of illusions, which will make you dodge the finish them.
Guardian: Blow up a great big push back interrupting the stealth finisher.
Elementalist: Mist form away.
Necromancer: Fear (not sure this one requires target).
Engineer: If you last long enough, great big explosion.
Warrior: Get up and start fighting (whichever plank thought that was a good idea needs shooting).
Ranger: Needs a target

As for the guy saying ‘buy you need a target to use certain skills from downed’. Well duh. But if your target is using stability, who cares? Your interrupt of the finisher won’t do anything anyway. If it doesn’t do anything, then nothing is done and therefore it’s the same as not being able to use the ability. Half the classes can still move away (mist form from downed).

As for the second chance stuff. It should not give you a really good second chance, absolutely not. Downed state in PvP is bad enough as it is, in WvW even worse as you can res from fully finished.

If you want to remove stealth stomping, aka the Thief’s only real way to stomp from any form of safety, you better bloody remove stability and invulnerability stomping. I’d take invuln over stealth any day for some reason. It can’t be interrupted and you can’t be killed. Woohoo.

Rika.7249:

Stealth does not mean immune.
People seem to forget that.
Guardians will stop us from stealth-finishing.
Eles will stop us from stealth-finishing.
Thieves will stop us from stealth-finishing.
Aiming in the general direction of the thief will stop him with all other classes (maybe with the exception of necro and ranger.)

Let’s take a look at Ele’s mistform, and warrior/guardian stability.
Good. Now we’ve realized that stealth-stomping isn’t even half as threatening as those 3.
We’ve also realized that stealth-stomping is one of the few things thieves are good at and should be able to. I agree with quickness that shouldn’t affect the cast-time. Stealth shouldn’t drop though. We’re squishy enough as is, we don’t need to be even more squishy.

Katsumoto.9452:

Ok let’s have a look here: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_downed_skills

Assuming you are a plank and run around solo in WvW or 8v8 PvP let us see what a player can do.

Thief: Teleport away.
Mesmer: Make a bunch of illusions, which will make you dodge the finish them.
Guardian: Blow up a great big push back interrupting the stealth finisher.
Elementalist: Mist form away.
Necromancer: Fear (not sure this one requires target).
Engineer: If you last long enough, great big explosion.
Warrior: Get up and start fighting (whichever plank thought that was a good idea needs shooting).
Ranger: Needs a target

As for the guy saying ‘buy you need a target to use certain skills from downed’. Well duh. But if your target is using stability, who cares? Your interrupt of the finisher won’t do anything anyway. If it doesn’t do anything, then nothing is done and therefore it’s the same as not being able to use the ability. Half the classes can still move away (mist form from downed).

As for the second chance stuff. It should not give you a really good second chance, absolutely not. Downed state in PvP is bad enough as it is, in WvW even worse as you can res from fully finished.

If you want to remove stealth stomping, aka the Thief’s only real way to stomp from any form of safety, you better bloody remove stability and invulnerability stomping. I’d take invuln over stealth any day for some reason. It can’t be interrupted and you can’t be killed. Woohoo.

AGAIN, you can STILL target those classes.

A stealthed Thief cannot be targeted, therefor, trivializing a Finish Them! move.

It has nothing to do, with being immune…..it is a target issue where you can simply not use ANY of your downed abilities, that is the issue. Even if any of those classes you guys mentioned was immune etc, you can still teleport/get a second chance from the downed state because you have a physical target.

What alot of people fail to understand with this topic is, downed state is suppose to be a mechanic for a second chance. If you cannot execute the skills you have in a downed state = broken mechanic.

Why are people acting like Thiefs can’t get stability either?

People in this thread tend to like to use organized group as an argument to vs a Thief, well I can tell you right now, an organized group is going to have someone casting an aoe stability based buff upon executing a pvp encounter thats for sure.

In GW2 you don’t need to target.
All you need to know is stay in range and use the skill, and it’ll hit.
Any knockback will hit them as long as they are not single target and one of their allies intercepts the hit, so skills that can knockback multiple enemies like Illusionary Wave will do the trick even better than skills like Point Blank Shot.

And if one of their allies uses stability with skills like “Stand Your Ground!”, you can still remove it, because it’s a boon. Boons can be removed.

Stealth isn’t immunity. With immunities like Obsidian Flesh I would agree. It’s also good that you can’t Finish under Death Shroud, since it’s an entire HP bar on top of another, but Stealth isn’t an immunity. It only prevents detection and targeting, it doesn’t remove the thief’s last location from your memory, and won’t prevent damage or boon removal if hit by skills.

MithranArkanere.8957:

In GW2 you don’t need to target.
All you need to know is stay in range and use the skill, and it’ll hit.
Any knockback will hit them as long as they are not single target and one of their allies intercepts the hit, so skills that can knockback multiple enemies like Illusionary Wave will do the trick even better than skills like Point Blank Shot.

And if one of their allies uses stability with skills like “Stand Your Ground!”, you can still remove it, because it’s a boon. Boons can be removed.

Stealth isn’t immunity. With immunities like Obsidian Flesh I would agree. It’s also good that you can’t Finish under Death Shroud, since it’s an entire HP bar on top of another, but Stealth isn’t an immunity. It only prevents detection and targeting, it doesn’t remove the thief’s last location from your memory, and won’t prevent damage or boon removal if hit by skills.

Negative, you get a massive red writing across your screen, telling you, you have no target.

This has been addressed in this thread already.

Hey hey, theifs need it, if you think it is that powerful become a thief.

As they say if you can not beat them join them XD

Black Dragon.3784:

Hey hey, theifs need it, if you think it is that powerful become a thief.

As they say if you can not beat them join them XD

I have a Thief and on occassion have used it.

It is boring after the first 10 times, needless to say, it is easily abused.

I really don’t care if you can target someone using invulnerability. You cannot do anything to them and therefore just because you can throw kittens at them, doesn’t mean you have a ‘second chance’.

The moving abilities I mentioned do not requikittengeting. The abilities that aren’t moving that I mentioned do not requikittengeting. There is that second chance.

How hard is it to understand that it doesn’t matter if they have stability or stealth if you can only stop them with a targeted interrupt. Vs stability, you do nothing to them. Vs stealth, you do nothing to them as you can’t hit them. However vs stealth guardians can still survive etc. Vs stability they can not. Unless you use an ability which half the classes in the game have, to re position themselves and therefore dodge the finisher.

As said, you either leave it how it is, or remove all of these things from stomping. No stability, no invulnerability, no elixir S stomping and no stealth stomping.

Downed state should NOT give you a good chance at a second chance. You SHOULD be heavy handicapped when downed. The point of it is to give a glimmer of hope, and i’d bet that it was mainly aimed at PvE as well.

Taemek.1602:

[…]
Negative, you get a massive red writing across your screen, telling you, you have no target.

This has been addressed in this thread already.

That only happens with skills that require a target to activate or skill like Flamestrike that can only target singe enemies.
Which are a few.

All AoEs, melee attacks and projectiles will hit, and those are the majority of the skills.

Use skills like Well of Corruption, and it’ll hit.
Use skills like Illusionary Wave, and it’ll hit.

As I said before, I’ve hit thieves trying to stealth-finish with Point Blank Shot.

All you need to do is remember that they are there, and you’ll hit.

I have a question. For all the QQ about “BUT YOU CAN’T TARGET THIEVES THAT MAKES THEM SO OP” has there been any consideration that you can target… other players nearby to activate your knockbacks? I can’t speak for the other professions, but for Guardian the knockback is centered around the guardian, so having ANY target, even if it’s just that dead bunny a few meters away, allows you to trigger your ability to get the desired results. In WvW if you can’t target anything then you’re doing something wrong.

Also it is perfectly valid to note that Thieves have no self-sufficient way to guarantee their Finish Them against most professions. Not being target-able is hardly the same as immunity and trying to act like it puts them at any more of an advantage than professions that can make themselves immune to interrupts when committing to the finisher isn’t valid.

It’s also not valid to ignore that yes, Stability is a thing and some Professions can put it on themselves at will regardless of whether it’s shared to the Thief or not (honestly, if it’s put on a Thief that close to the finisher, the source of the boon is likely trying to Finish You too, or is at the very least ready to go in for it if the Thief were to fail).

Just a tip for future reference: when talking about group scenarios it’s best not to ignore that it’s a Group Scenario.

I personally think the current balance is great. Some people don’t like the Downed state or don’t like how it works or how rally works. I do like it and I think it’s very well balanced at the moment.

Taemek.1602:

snip

ok, just tell me one thing. two things, actually.

what is the difference between a thief’s stealth, a guardian’s stand your ground (AoE stability + guardian’s free aegis), an ele’s armor of earth, and a warrior’s endure pain?

what difference does being able to target them make when they can’t be damaged or CC’d?

i just want you to answer those two questions. don’t go off on a tangent about not being fair to the downed player to not see the enemy, answer the questions. if you answer those questions and somehow make the answer come out as “stealth is unfair, the other classes’ options are not”, then you might have a point. but you have to answer the questions. because those are the questions the devs would ask before deciding if this is a valid suggestion or not.

You guys keep splashing skills around like they are instant reuse, they aren’t.

Stealth can be reused every 5 seconds, none of these skills can. If you spec for ini gain, you can stealth every 3 seconds. Start comparing apples to oranges or don’t compare at all, some of those skills you are trying to justify this with have x mins reuse.

Again, none of your examples or arguments hold any water.

Fact is, stealth gives an advantage no other class has, end of story.

you can still hit them while they are in stealth.

Taemek.1602:

You guys keep splashing skills around like they are instant reuse, they aren’t.

Stealth can be reused every 5 seconds, none of these skills can. If you spec for ini gain, you can stealth every 3 seconds. Start comparing apples to oranges or don’t compare at all, some of those skills you are trying to justify this with have x mins reuse.

Again, none of your examples or arguments hold any water.

Fact is, stealth gives an advantage no other class has, end of story.

funny, because from where i stand, your argument doesn’t hold any water, and i see plenty of people backing me too. and considering the devs haven’t done anything regarding it since BWE1, i assume they agree with me too.

different perspectives, maybe? or maybe you just don’t realize that what you’re saying makes no sense? i mean, you have yet to answer the questions i asked.

of course they have a longer recharge, they make your character immune to all damage, whereas a thief can be downed by a single lava font, for example (and eles usually spec into dropping lava fonts when downed, what a coincidence).

There’s a lot of ways to fortify a finisher, why remove this one? Guardians can throw their troll bubble over people or use stability to finish people guaranteeing. You can still teleport away, hit or aoe thieves in stealth. You and your allies need to just pay attention better. Thief is also the most fragile class in the entire game and are 100% wide open during finisher. Most of the time people just aren’t smart enough to realized I’m doing a stealth finisher and are sitting there regening or rezzing player instead of swinging at me when they just saw me use stealth.

Doggie.3184:

There’s a lot of ways to fortify a finisher, why remove this one? Guardians can throw their troll bubble over people or use stability to finish people guaranteeing. You can still teleport away, hit or aoe thieves in stealth. You and your allies need to just pay attention better. Thief is also the most fragile class in the entire game and are 100% wide open during finisher. Most of the time people just aren’t smart enough to realized I’m doing a stealth finisher and are sitting there regening or rezzing player instead of swinging at me when they just saw me use stealth.

Again, not the issue.

People need to learn reading comprehension before replying to a post unfortunately.

Taemek.1602:

Doggie.3184:

There’s a lot of ways to fortify a finisher, why remove this one? Guardians can throw their troll bubble over people or use stability to finish people guaranteeing. You can still teleport away, hit or aoe thieves in stealth. You and your allies need to just pay attention better. Thief is also the most fragile class in the entire game and are 100% wide open during finisher. Most of the time people just aren’t smart enough to realized I’m doing a stealth finisher and are sitting there regening or rezzing player instead of swinging at me when they just saw me use stealth.

Again, not the issue.

People need to learn reading comprehension before replying to a post unfortunately.

Really? Ok. “Stealth – Finish Them! Needs to go” ? Nope.avi. It’s fine, it stays, end of story. Nothing else to it.

If you got a juicy beef with Quickness or anything else comboing with it, sure.
Leave Stealth outa the equation.

Taemek.1602:

Doggie.3184:

There’s a lot of ways to fortify a finisher, why remove this one? Guardians can throw their troll bubble over people or use stability to finish people guaranteeing. You can still teleport away, hit or aoe thieves in stealth. You and your allies need to just pay attention better. Thief is also the most fragile class in the entire game and are 100% wide open during finisher. Most of the time people just aren’t smart enough to realized I’m doing a stealth finisher and are sitting there regening or rezzing player instead of swinging at me when they just saw me use stealth.

Again, not the issue.

People need to learn reading comprehension before replying to a post unfortunately.

if by “people” you mean “Taemek”, then you’re correct.

every class has a way to trick the downed player and stomp safely. thieves use stealth. mesmers press F4 and gain 4 seconds of immunity. guardians have a ton of access to aegis, stability, and other blocks. and so on.

that’s all there is to it, but you keep trying to make it sound like thieves have some unfair advantage over others. the problem is that you’re thinking of one on one, thief VS downed player scenarios, when you should be looking at group fights, and how the stealth works to provide a safe stomp VS other safe stomp skills.

Stealth is a core mechanic behind the Thief class.

Immunity, Stability skills etc etc are not core mechanics for any class and they have large reuse timers usually.

Stealth can be spammed, immunity based skills cannot.

Stealth allows for no target to be present for trivializing a Finish Them! move every 3-5 seconds depending on build.

Immunity, Stability etc based skills allow it every x minutes.

If you are still even remotely trying to justify it with this argument, then I am gobb smacked.

With this, I leave it at this because I am honestly sick to death of repeating myself. If you have Thiefs in here agreeing with this, that about sums it up really.

“stealth is a core mechanic behind the thief class”

“nerf stealth so it doesn’t work anymore”

you just sound like a sore loser now.

stealth “trivializes” stomping much less than stability or immunity, which have no counters to. meanwhile, stealth can still be damaged. i’d know, i’ve killed plenty of people that tried to stealth away (and been killed while in stealth). but hey, you played 5 minutes of thief on random arenas and you die a lot to thieves, that must mean the problem is the class!

Taemek.1602:

You can still target these poeple and ethier teleport away out of range of the Finish Them! if your class has that skill or what ever other skills you have use of.

Again, you cannot do this with a stealthed Thief for obvious reasons.

As I mentioned earlier, stealth/mist/etc need to be greyed out Finish Them! buttons until you remove yourself from that condition. Simple.

No, you can’t target a stealther. As a matter of fact that’s the only thing you can’t do to a stealther. Believe it or not nearly every ability in the game can be used without a target. in fact, even if you use those abilities without a target they will still hit targets!

Yes, you can teleport out of a stealth-stomp. I play a theif. Smart players with a downed-move action always always wait 2 seconds and then pop it. This usually forces the finisher to burn a cooldown on nothing in order to finish you out of their protected state of stealth/invuln/whatever.

“Protected finisher” is a tactical decision available to every class, and always requires someone to burn a cooldown (or initiative, or both) for their stealth, invuln, mist, or whatever protection they are using. Which leaves them without that cooldown to fight your teammates.

If you’re fighting anybody in a 1v1 and you go down, your downed state is virtually never going to get you back up unless help arrives. On the extremely rare occasion that it does, the fight was already so close that you’re getting back up with a rally by downing that guy with a random lucky shot or condition you applied before you went down.

Taemek.1602:

Doggie.3184:

There’s a lot of ways to fortify a finisher, why remove this one? Guardians can throw their troll bubble over people or use stability to finish people guaranteeing. You can still teleport away, hit or aoe thieves in stealth. You and your allies need to just pay attention better. Thief is also the most fragile class in the entire game and are 100% wide open during finisher. Most of the time people just aren’t smart enough to realized I’m doing a stealth finisher and are sitting there regening or rezzing player instead of swinging at me when they just saw me use stealth.

Again, not the issue.

People need to learn reading comprehension before replying to a post unfortunately.

The fact is that a Thief’s stealth is nothing more than what you see when regular enemies Stealth in solo PvE while exploring. Thiefs can use it more often but it doesn’t alter their survivability in any concrete way the way every other survivability measure does. That’s why Stealth has a shorter cooldown. Thiefs are just as kill-able while stealthed as while visible. That you can’t click on them to target them is the only means of effective survivability from stealth and it’s a freaking flimsy one at that. So a stealthed thief can’t be targeted so it’s hard for a downed player to counteract a finisher from one. The question still stands: what concrete difference is there between this and a character that applies Stability instead of Stealth? The difference is the stealther can be interrupted more easily.