Guild Wars 2

Since the trading post has a 15% fee, it can be assumed Anet doesn’t like buying items just to resell them. It discourages flipping to a degree that isn’t too punishing to the rest of the players.

But lots of flipping is still done, and it makes legitimate buyers and sellers much less able to use the TP. It steals savings from them, and destroys 15% of those savings paying fees a second time. Instead of player A getting a 1s savings, player B acts as the middleman and gets 85 savings. There would be more money if it didn’t happen.

Since there is rarely a need to sell something your just bought, I propose a limitation of a few days or a week where you need to wait before you can resell something you bought. This would eliminate the behaviour of: calculate if there’s a profit margin, buy a ton, sell immediately as it comes in.

The only people who would be affected more than a negligible amount are people making money to the detriment of the economy. The wait would introduce risk to this behaviour that doesn’t guarantee profit.

Whaddya think?

I personally feel that playing the market is a good element of the game. If anything the 15% should be reduced to allow more market play. I just find it intellectually stimulating for people and those who manage to make a lot of money off of it good for them. They are utilizing their brains (not game mechanics) to gain an advantage.

I think they should introduce timeout (3-7 days, maybe 10-15 days) on both buy and sell orders listing and reduce tax to 1-2% for listing and 3-4% for actual selling items. Add restriction of max orders per account (5buy/5sell) and add something in gem shop to increase that limit.

I have no idea what you’re saying with “stealing savings”. Nothing you’re saying makes much sense. It isn’t “stealing” anything. It’s just being observant and calculating prices that fit the demand. And i’m not sure how you figure it’s detrimental to the economy. Flooding the market with under-valued items hurts the economy just as much if not more than inflating prices. Look at all the items that are priced at vendor value. If someone buys all of those up and resells them for a more realistic price, that stimulates economic growth, with people being more likely to put items up on the TP instead of just vendoring them.

I would prefer 0% fee rate. But I’m probably in the minority on that. I think marketeering is fun but it becomes less so the higher the fees are.

I feel that the reason there is no person to person trade system is because Anet doesn’t want people to bypass the auction house. They want it so that you have to mail the item, which makes selling outside the auction house risky.

People think that if there is no fee that prices will skyrocket. That is not the case.

Clark, because of the market playing, that causes fluxing in the market. This allows for people actually buy for less and sell for more. It is because of market flippers that you are able to keep the market fluctuating. I think that the competitiveness of the market actually keeps it fresh for people who are wanting to kill time and are willing to put in the research of the items.

If you’re trying to maximize profit of what you’re selling: click the item, find out what the current market is (by “current market” I mean that you see which price the item is most available on), check how frequently the item moves, place your item up for sale for just under the market if it moves quickly. If it doesn’t, then you should sell it for maybe 1-2c less than what the lowest seller is going for. That ensures that you’re going to sell your item and that you get the price that you want while getting the item sold within a decent amount of time.

That’s my 2c. GL out there!

Flipping is not using your brain. It is the least difficult way to play the market. And there are different ways to play the market without playing the middleman. It is unfriendly, wastes gold and makes it more difficult for people who want to buy or sell something to actually do it.

I have made money by crafting things that are hard to find, buying materials for crafting cheap, looking for the best way to dispose of items. This is actual effort and thought making money. Flipping is something anyone can think of and do with next to no effort.

I like the idea of not being able to buy huge stacks of an item at once.

I don’t think a feeless TP will make prices skyrocket. It will make buy/sell prices equal and pointless. There would be no way to find deals as a flipper would take even 2c difference and sell them in bulk.

The more time goes, I feel like the smartest and most consciencous players will do worse than those who don’t care about the economy or the way they do business. It’s coming down to “lower yourself or stop making money”. Which for me means stop making money.

Onestar.2479:

I personally feel that playing the market is a good element of the game. If anything the 15% should be reduced to allow more market play. I just find it intellectually stimulating for people and those who manage to make a lot of money off of it good for them. They are utilizing their brains (not game mechanics) to gain an advantage.

The problem with this is it makes the market another form of PvP played by a few, rather than a tool that should be useful to all players.

If you want a market simulation game you should probably go find one that isn’t in an MMO.

When a few take advantage of a system to gain an unfair advantage over others, that’s a problem to be fixed.

I would be delighted to drop my flipping and go out and play the game instead. However, Anet decided that ridiculous drop rates, asinine DR, and exuberant costs of travel and armor repair were all good ideas to implement. As a result, I can’t play their game. I have to waste my time playing the market in order to make money which will eventually allow me to play the game. If you want me to stop this, please feel free to make Anet see the error of their ways.

Bubbles.1047:

I would be delighted to drop my flipping and go out and play the game instead. However, Anet decided that ridiculous drop rates, asinine DR, and exuberant costs of travel and armor repair were all good ideas to implement. As a result, I can’t play their game. I have to waste my time playing the market in order to make money which will eventually allow me to play the game. If you want me to stop this, please feel free to make Anet see the error of their ways.

Those are all excuses. You make much more money from events and hearts and loot than you’ll ever spend on repairs and teleports unless you’re some kind of tentacle-monster with crab-claws instead of arms… So go and play the game.

There are people who are playing the game without flipping. There are people who are playing without the trading post entirely. It’s not required to flip.

If you want a market simulation game you should probably go find one that isn’t in an MMO.

People flipping don’t do it primarily for enjoyment but because they find it a much more agreeable way to make gold in this game than grind, and grind some more.

The tax is an excellent gold sink. The people buying low and selling high actually make that tax be taken twice. So it’s great for the economy as a whole. Screw individuals.

I’m sort of enjoying playing the market from time to time. It’s not like it’s THAT easy with the 15% fee. Make mistakes and you lose money.

But it’s sort of faster than griding and I can watch series in the meantime. This way I can actually play the game when I want to instead of spending time on farming gold.

The problem with the tax is the money isn’t recycled back into the economy to boost growth, it is simple coin removed from the economy. Taking usable coin out of the economy makes less money available to use so more people are reluctant to spend money. I for hate the monetary system, it is a tedious an un-enjoyable grind to make 1g – even by flipping goods, which I have found is the easiest way to make money. However I spend 2 hours doing this to make 50silver because of the fees. Better loot over all will help the game, the game economy, the interest in the game, etc. The only reason I can see Anet keeping the economy in such a bad position is to force players to buy gold with real world cash, and to me, that is not right. Buying gold should be an option but not the way to make your wealth in game.

wait a minute … when I flip stuff on the TP I always buy for 1 more than anyone else and sell for at least 1 less than anyone else … how is this hurting anyone who is actually truing to buy or sell stuff
If I’m flipping iron ingots and you are selling them I’ll buy them for more than anyone else that’s good for you and if you are buying them I’m selling them for less than anyone else that’s also good for you.

If anything this practice is doing more to normalize the TP it is getting the buy and sell price as close to the same as possible while not loosing money to the taxs

Players that play the market increase the number of sales.

This increases the amount of gold sunk by the system.

If this “flipping” is prevented and the trade fee lowered, gold would inflate at a much faster rate.

Someone considered increasing the trading fee, and other fees, so that more gold is removed from the system. This could be done to reduce inflation!

Flipping is a tactic in market play, and there is risk involved. Arguably, the practice helps to stabilize supply and, with the fee and tax, serves as a steady currency sink.

That said, I suspect it’s being exploited by… let’s call them… illegitimate agencies. When I see eleventy bazillion of item X listed by… 2-4 sellers… that doesn’t pass the sniff test.

So, cap the number of things/stacks that can be sold at any given time. Make the cap high enough that it won’t hinder the casual market user. Provide a few earned means to expand that cap, as a game goal for market players.

The market is part of the game, so game design should be part of the developer’s approach to it. That’s noticeably lacking right now. It could be much more engaging.

Flipping will only be reduced WHEN there is actually several good ways to actually make money other than flipping items on the TP.

And until that happens, you will not reduce the amount of flipping being done.

Jamais vu.5284:

People flipping don’t do it primarily for enjoyment but because they find it a much more agreeable way to make gold in this game than grind, and grind some more.

QFT. The grind in this game is even worse than many others to make money simply because of Anet’s “anti-farm” code and the limitations imposed on mining.

zbrkesbr.4173:

Bubbles.1047:

I would be delighted to drop my flipping and go out and play the game instead. However, Anet decided that ridiculous drop rates, asinine DR, and exuberant costs of travel and armor repair were all good ideas to implement. As a result, I can’t play their game. I have to waste my time playing the market in order to make money which will eventually allow me to play the game. If you want me to stop this, please feel free to make Anet see the error of their ways.

Those are all excuses. You make much more money from events and hearts and loot than you’ll ever spend on repairs and teleports unless you’re some kind of tentacle-monster with crab-claws instead of arms… So go and play the game.

If a player is zipping around the world, the cost of travel can severely impede a persons income. So they are forced to look for events. BUT, if there’s no events going on for whatever reason (such as bugged out events) then theres very little way for a player to actually make money. After all, if they try to farm nodes, they won’t get very far. And the DR and anti-farm code discourages farming of items. And that’s before you consider the repairs costs involved when wearing a full set of exotics.

In short: The game is deliberately setup to discourage farming of items and crafting materials (just look at the drop rates of certain crafting mats for example). And until Anet give players better ways to make money that doesn’t involve Flipping, you won’t discourage it.

So, no, they aren’t excuses, they are very valid points.

Tarkaroshe.8370:

If a player is zipping around the world, the cost of travel can severely impede a persons income. So they are forced to look for events. BUT, if there’s no events going on for whatever reason (such as bugged out events) then theres very little way for a player to actually make money. After all, if they try to farm nodes, they won’t get very far. And the DR and anti-farm code discourages farming of items. And that’s before you consider the repairs costs involved when wearing a full set of exotics.

So, no, they aren’t excuses, they are very valid points.

No, they are excuses. Zipping around the world to look for events falls under my definition of “grind” instead of “playing the game”. Roaming around without teleporting is much more fun as you get to participate in numerous small events that are often more profitable than large ones with chests you’re looking for by teleporting. Also trying to maximize income (grind of same location) rarely have anything to do with fun in any game, change locations every now and then and you’ll never hit DR. And if you’re that worried about repairs – maybe its time to rethink your build, strategy and learn mobs’ behavior instead of just dieing to the 1st AoE.

zbrkesbr.4173:

Tarkaroshe.8370:

If a player is zipping around the world, the cost of travel can severely impede a persons income. So they are forced to look for events. BUT, if there’s no events going on for whatever reason (such as bugged out events) then theres very little way for a player to actually make money. After all, if they try to farm nodes, they won’t get very far. And the DR and anti-farm code discourages farming of items. And that’s before you consider the repairs costs involved when wearing a full set of exotics.

So, no, they aren’t excuses, they are very valid points.

No, they are excuses. Zipping around the world to look for events falls under my definition of “grind” instead of “playing the game”. Roaming around without teleporting is much more fun as you get to participate in numerous small events that are often more profitable than large ones with chests you’re looking for by teleporting. Also trying to maximize income (grind of same location) rarely have anything to do with fun in any game, change locations every now and then and you’ll never hit DR. And if you’re that worried about repairs – maybe its time to rethink your build, strategy and learn mobs’ behavior instead of just dieing to the 1st AoE.

And whilst “roaming” (i.e. running) players can stand a good chance of missing getting to the events that are actually running. Sorry, but the whole “just run everywhere” is impractical in a game that has time limits on events. So you cannot just expect people to not utilise quick travel in order to cross the entire world and get to events in time.

Now, if we had land based mounts, then your argument could potentially hold more weight. But we don’t have them. So you are essentially asking people to forget all other means of travel and run across the entire world “on foot”.

In the end such a discussion on personal definitions of “fun” and “grind” is irrelevant and is not worth getting into. This discussion is actually about why flipping is being done. And that simply comes down to the fact that players need to make money. Whether they like doing it or not is irrelevant. What IS relevant is whether or not the various means to make money are considered as viable when compared to “flipping”.

And the simple fact is that when such players compare Time + Effort vs Reward when taking part in those other means of obtaining in-game money, flipping is winning out.

As for the comments that are basically telling people to “learn to play”. Death is often inevitable in this game, whether it is the fault of the individual, or the entire group / s, or even the mechanics in the game. So such comments are really not very helpful at all. Besides, I’m willing to bet that you are either not wearing full exotics, or have so much money that repair costs are of little concern

My point is that a player who hasn’t made any money via flipping won’t have masses of gold to spend. And so ANY repairs can severely hurt their income. The game economy is harsh on players trying to make any money. That fact is undeniable.

“Flipping” is more rewarding – maybe, but less fun – definitely. But then again it boils down to personal definition of fun.

p.s. sent you pm to keep offtopic things… off topic.

zbrkesbr.4173:

“Flipping” is more rewarding – maybe, but less fun – definitely. But then again it boils down to personal definition of fun.

p.s. sent you pm to keep offtopic things… off topic.

Agreed

And if players are more inclined to “flip” than do other activities to gain money, then that needs investigating. The DR on farming items, the repair costs, the WP costs, and the limitations on gathering are contributing factors when a player compares the Time+Effort vs Reward.

I believe in capitalism and the free market. Your idea annoys me because it contradicts my beliefs.

If someone wants to buy an item to flip it, that’s their business, and they have a right to make a profit. Someone else can always undercut them with a cheaper price, and that’s their business, and they also have a right to make a profit. It’s how an economy works. I just don’t think there should be any limit on this type of market activity, including a cooldown.

Why? Maybe I want to do it. Or maybe I want to buy a material, but it isn’t there because someone bought it all so they could sell it at a higher price, but they have to wait a week to post it at the new price, so I have to wait a week to buy it. That makes me an unhappy Leowulf.

Haha the free market eh? There are limitations already. You can’t buy or sell karma items. This game isn’t the real world, and can be exploited like the real world can’t. If someone bought up all of the carrots in the grocery store at a sale price and opened a stand next to it selling for more, you’d smack them in the face. Because it’s anonymous, people don’t see how they’re crossing each other by missing out on getting slapped in the face when middlemaning.

The point with my suggestion is that they wouldn’t buy all the stock to begin with if they had to wait a week to sell it. So you wouldn’t get unhappy.

It seems like the only people who are against this are people who are profiting from it.

It’s not a grind to me as I didn’t rush to lv 80 in the first week. I am playing the game as they intended, and playing the market without resorting to unfriendly flipping. If I can do it, so can everyone else. No excuses needed.

This change would help the many at the expense of the few who are not the friendliest of players to begin with.

I disagree with this suggestion. There’s already a 10% tax and a 5% listing fee. If someone can make a profit off of flipping good for them.

Do you not think those fees are there to maybe discourage flipping?
They’re doing something Anet doesn’t want them to do, that shouldn’t be congratulated.

Clark Skinner.4902:

Do you not think those fees are there to maybe discourage flipping?
They’re doing something Anet doesn’t want them to do, that shouldn’t be congratulated.

I’d be very surprised if Anet actually cared about people flipping. It’s an economy; flipping happens. The fee isn’t intended as a punishment, it’s intended to serve as an incredibly powerful vacuum cleaner which sucks gold out of the economy.

Clark Skinner.4902:

Do you not think those fees are there to maybe discourage flipping?

Not even remotely.

Clark Skinner.4902

Do you not think those fees are there to maybe discourage flipping?

Nope.

They’re doing something Anet doesn’t want them to do

Can you cite a source for that claim?

Playing (read: manipulating the market tbh) the market, needs to become a bannable offense.
Making stuff more expensive for people without adding anything to the economy is shady business.
Down with capitalism in virtual worlds.

I like the idea of imposing a limit on how many items can be listed at one time. That is a good way to prevent flipping.

MithranArkanere.8957:

When a few take advantage of a system to gain an unfair advantage over others, that’s a problem to be fixed.

Are you insinuating that market flipping is taking advantage of something? If so, how? Where’s the exploit?

To that effect, wouldn’t you say that a Mesmer’s Illusions are an exploit of the system. They give off a mirror image of the character and is easily exploitable toward combat.

My point is this, just because you’re not willing to put in the time to make a profit TP flipping, there’s no reason that others can’t. Just as someone said, its another form of PvP. That may be so, but you can catch some really good steals if you’re willing to keep an eye on the market.

Malediktus.9250:

Playing (read: manipulating the market tbh) the market, needs to become a bannable offense.
Making stuff more expensive for people without adding anything to the economy is shady business.
Down with capitalism in virtual worlds.

The ability to play the market is rather the point of having one in the first place.

Wouldn’t, as the current system does, placing pressure on sellers to set their items at equal or less than 15% more than the asking price (demand) of the market (in order to prevent being undercut by flippers) actually prevent price inflation?

It does harm other players. It makes it much more difficult to buy something you actually want because flippers are meddling in sales. The legitimate buyers would be getting these deals, and legitimate sellers would be selling things more easily.

It’s actually not a case of “taking the time to flip”. It’s actually a really easy way to do it. I’d be far richer if I did it, and I spend more time on the TP than most. I just won’t treat other people like that. I care about the principle of the matter and the morality of my actions, not what will give me quick currency in a game. I don’t flip despite it being a easy way to make money.

If everyone did it, there would be no profit from it. Everyone doesn’t do it, not because they can’t figure out “buy low sell high”. They do it because it’s not honourable in-game just like it is not honourable in real-life. “Cut out the middleman” is common knowledge enough for this to be understood by all.

kamikazecopilot.9801:

MithranArkanere.8957:

When a few take advantage of a system to gain an unfair advantage over others, that’s a problem to be fixed.

Are you insinuating that market flipping is taking advantage of something? If so, how? Where’s the exploit?

To that effect, wouldn’t you say that a Mesmer’s Illusions are an exploit of the system. They give off a mirror image of the character and is easily exploitable toward combat.

My point is this, just because you’re not willing to put in the time to make a profit TP flipping, there’s no reason that others can’t. Just as someone said, its another form of PvP. That may be so, but you can catch some really good steals if you’re willing to keep an eye on the market.

No. It’s not the same. One is designed to work like that, while the other one is people taking advantage of the faults in the system.

How so?

When you put something to sell, you only get two prices:
- The current highest request.
- The current lowest offer.

You can put request WAY under the possible sell price. An item that can be sold to a trader for 1gold can be put on request for 1 copper.
Yet people can’t sell at that price anyways. Why are there requests so low?
First, because they can.
And second, smarty pants do that on purpose to reduce the ‘feel’ of worth of things.

You can put to sell an item way under the average price people offer. And some people will simply follow that price without checking the list that appears when you select “Buy more like this”.
Item has average price of 10s, put one on 1s, wait for people to fall for that, buy all of them and put them on sale for 9s.
And no one will be none the wiser.

This creates false data and false pricing.
It’s like going to a remote village and selling something they want or need for 10$, when it’s actually worth less than 1$. Like bottles of water.
You may say it’s business. I say it’s unethical. We have enough unethical business practices in reality. No need to bring any to a game in which characters are supposed to be heroes that won’t do evil on purpose.

So,this is what must happen:
- All existing requests under sale value must be removed, and any request under sale value must be prevented at all. They only clutter the system and serve no purpose, since you can’t sell at those prices anyways.
- The ‘match lowest offer’ section must be replaced with a list list just like the list you see when you buy, showing all the offers. That way you can see directly in that panel if there’s a single offer for 1s, and the next starts at 10s.
- Either you can’t sell back something you just bought for some time, by getting a cooldown for that item, or a cap on how many items of each type you can sell at he same time, or anything you buy becomes account-bound, so you can’t sell things you buy, and only buy stuff to use it, not to sell it back ( excepting collectible stuff, as those keep being added constantly in big bulks and flipping them is much harder, and making them account bound would be pointless, as you’ll just have to store them and them take them out of the collector tab).

THEN you can say it’s fair, because the info is clear, accurate, in the open and directly there without having to do ‘tricks’ like checking buy prices before selling that not everyone knows, so people can’t take advantage of unknowing newbies and people who doesn’t check forums and wiki.