Devs, below is a cut and paste from a discussion being held in the General forum:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Knock-backs/first#post2069684
I find it funny that Anet didn’t learn how to put DR on stuns and knockbacks yet.
…
Correct …
Even in LotRO characters have a 5 sec stun/knockdown DR … it’s a common mechanic in many MMOs.
I have a feeling this mechanic was simply overlooked while developing the game, or is already planned to be added soon. It just makes too much sense to be otherwise.
Regardless, adding a 5 sec stun/knockdown DR would be a perfect topic for the Suggestion forum.
(edited by Ision.3207)
Nope. Crowd Control is short duration for a reason.
In those other MMOs where you can literally be locked by control for 5, 8, 15 seconds, it’s only logical to implement immunity afterwards for players…but stuns, knockback and the like in this game last maybe 3 seconds at most. And you can dodge, block, blind and break these CC effects as well as using instant skills that work while stunned.
The answer to your problem is to not get stunned.
Nope. Crowd Control is short duration for a reason.
In those other MMOs where you can literally be locked by control for 5, 8, 15 seconds, it’s only logical to implement immunity afterwards for players…but stuns, knockback and the like in this game last maybe 3 seconds at most. And you can dodge, block, blind and break these CC effects as well as using instant skills that work while stunned.
The answer to your problem is to not get stunned.
Yet if you get stunned once you can just never get unstunned, because enemies have no CD. WoW had DR on stuns. So did LOTRO. Most MMOs had DR on stuns so you couldn’t get stunlocked to death.
Nope. Crowd Control is short duration for a reason.
In those other MMOs where you can literally be locked by control for 5, 8, 15 seconds, it’s only logical to implement immunity afterwards for players…but stuns, knockback and the like in this game last maybe 3 seconds at most. And you can dodge, block, blind and break these CC effects as well as using instant skills that work while stunned.
The answer to your problem is to not get stunned.
Until you run into several enemies that stun/knock you down. My engineer was killed by reef drakes due to chained stuns. Having a stun breaker equipped would work once, but with long cooldowns on most, it’s not a viable solution for chained control.
My warrior got trampled by centaur during an event in Kessex Hills and knocked down. I used “shake it off” to get back up again, and was immediately knocked down by a second centaur. I got up again, and knocked down a third time (and killed). Nothing I could do about it. I definitely couldn’t dodge while lying on the ground.
Until you run into several enemies that stun/knock you down. My engineer was killed by reef drakes due to chained stuns. Having a stun breaker equipped would work once, but with long cooldowns on most, it’s not a viable solution for chained control.
My warrior got trampled by centaur during an event in Kessex Hills and knocked down. I used “shake it off” to get back up again, and was immediately knocked down by a second centaur. I got up again, and knocked down a third time (and killed). Nothing I could do about it. I definitely couldn’t dodge while lying on the ground.
I’ve been killed by constant CC too. Ever try to take back a camp in Orr when trebs are constantly flinging you around while the priest risen have that PBAoE knockback attack and fear forcing you away?
But that doesn’t mean they are broken, it just means you need a group to faceroll content. When facing mobs alone, expect the game to not be so simple.
Multiple mobs that use stun/knockdown one after another can be a problem. Guardians have stability so they have somewhat of an easier time with this. However, the reef drakes in Southsun are definitely a challenge to take on, especially multiple drakes. I was on my guardian in Southsun the other day and ran into 3 drakes after trying to rescue another player. I barely won, and the 3rd drake was killed from downed state.
Engineer has Elixir C (among others) which acts as a stunbreaker. I have full Lyssa runes on mine, so it’s possibly to get stability from my Supply Crate elite if I see a knockdown coming.
Regardless of class, I’ve found it’s better to only try to aggro one or two enemies at a time. Than any CC they throw at you is easier to handle. Of course, this isn’t possible all the time.
I’ve been killed by constant CC too. Ever try to take back a camp in Orr when trebs are constantly flinging you around while the priest risen have that PBAoE knockback attack and fear forcing you away?
But that doesn’t mean they are broken, it just means you need a group to faceroll content. When facing mobs alone, expect the game to not be so simple.
And nobody wants to faceroll content. Make the mobs not de-aggro if you wish. Make them do insane damage, but give fair mechanics. DR on CC would just make it fair.
In most other MMO’s being stunlocked was much more of a major issue than it has been in this game.
And nobody wants to faceroll content.
But the content is faceroll when you have a group of people. Making CC ‘fair’ in your eyes would make it pretty much faceroll regardless.
In most other MMO’s being stunlocked was much more of a major issue than it has been in this game.
Yup, in games where CC is powerful, you need temp immunity otherwise you can’t do anything. Consider City of Heroes where you could face multiple foes with holds that could last upwards of 10seconds…and they only had temporary immunity to it in PvP…
But the content is faceroll when you have a group of people. Making CC ‘fair’ in your eyes would make it pretty much faceroll regardless.
Well a) you don’t go exploring a zone with a full party of 5. Zone exploration is not group content.
When speaking about group events I have more trouble with culling – suddenly you’re knocked down by nothing, you read in your combat log that there’s a champion risen somewhere, but no matter how hard you look you just can’t find one.
Well a) you don’t go exploring a zone with a full party of 5. Zone exploration is not group content.
Well a) when you’re zone exploring, rarely are you faced with more than 5 mobs at a time, b.) you can just run away from mobs as they can only chase you so far, and c.) if you can’t manage to kill open world mobs before they CC you to death, likely they are Vets/champions which are meant for groups.
its called protection status. After being affected by any condition a timer of protection of that status should last like 5sec not to allow what could be a perma mezz/stun/immo. Well in city of heroes/villians, Dominator could perma immobilise pople in pvp for long time until it get fix, some specific build could mezz/immo entire zerg :p They nerfed it and manage to implement a status protection system after being affected by a mezz/stun/immo/root.
its called protection status. After being affected by any condition a timer of protection of that status should last like 5sec not to allow what could be a perma mezz/stun/immo. Well in city of heroes/villians, Dominator could perma immobilise pople in pvp for long time until it get fix, some specific build could mezz/immo entire zerg :p They nerfed it and manage to implement a status protection system after being affected by a mezz/stun/immo/root.
That game is very very different from this game though.
For instance, you could enhance your holds and immobilizes to last upwards of 15sec and in the case of immobilize, they were pretty much perma out of the box. Then you had protection that worked in magnitudes, so you could be immune to mezz up to a point until mezz was stacked and overwhelmed your protection…beyond game specifics like your ability to fly or leap up/over/on tall buildings to escape or teleport without a cooldown or zip out of range in a second, they had a whole other slew of different things to balance around…
In this game, mezz only lasts a few seconds, it doesn’t stack it only refreshes, they are often on long cooldowns or telegraphed and we have many ways of negating attacks entirely, such as moving out of the way before the attack finishes, dodging etc.
Well a) when you’re zone exploring, rarely are you faced with more than 5 mobs at a time, b.) you can just run away from mobs as they can only chase you so far, and c.) if you can’t manage to kill open world mobs before they CC you to death, likely they are Vets/champions which are meant for groups.
so you’re saying that Veterans now are meant to be group content?
Also as far as I remember Orr never had groups of less than 5. Ever. So yes, the moment one will pull, the rest will follow.
That game is very very different from this game though.
For instance, you could enhance your holds and immobilizes to last upwards of 15sec and in the case of immobilize, they were pretty much perma out of the box. Then you had protection that worked in magnitudes, so you could be immune to mezz up to a point until mezz was stacked and overwhelmed your protection…beyond game specifics like your ability to fly or leap up/over/on tall buildings to escape or teleport without a cooldown or zip out of range in a second, they had a whole other slew of different things to balance around…
In this game, mezz only lasts a few seconds, it doesn’t stack it only refreshes, they are often on long cooldowns or telegraphed and we have many ways of negating attacks entirely, such as moving out of the way before the attack finishes, dodging etc.
Having in mind that they can re-apply a stun while you’re stunned I wouldn’t say that how long it lasts matter. You can be CC’ed to death. So yes, DR on CC is necessary.
so you’re saying that Veterans now are meant to be group content?
Also as far as I remember Orr never had groups of less than 5. Ever. So yes, the moment one will pull, the rest will follow.
Considering Vets usually come with other non-vets, it’s safe to say they are advance content. The game shouldn’t be downgraded so everything is as easy as a pair of regular mobs.
Having in mind that they can re-apply a stun while you’re stunned I wouldn’t say that how long it lasts matter. You can be CC’ed to death. So yes, DR on CC is necessary.
I don’t suppose you have videos, they don’t have to be your own, of people constantly CC’ed to death.
I’ve been playing Orr exclusively (took a long break and came back to some changes there). I’m not seeing it. Control effects don’t stack, they just refresh. If 2 mobs apply a knockback that last 3 seconds but only a half second apart (it’s not uncommon for mobs to use the same attack the moment they get aggro on you), that translates to 3.5 sec of CC’ed.
Theoretically, 5 mobs can take turns using their control skills until you’re out of dodges and out of stun breaks, but how often is that really happening? The closest I’ve personally come is those Champion Spiders pulling me in, immobilizing me and then following up with a (very slow and telegraphed) attack that pretty much kills instantly and summons more spiders after I’ve burned all my condition removal.
That isn’t being CC’ed to death, that’s simply the mob’s menacing attack that you must get away from at all costs.
They are short lasting but very accessible, more so on some professions than others. I agree with DR on controlling effects but not after 1. Maybe after like 3 or 4 cc effects you gain immunity AFTERWARDS for a couple seconds. This removes the ping pong effect you see in wvw.
Maybe this can replace defiant as well. Except the number of cc before immunity and the duration of immunity would vary. So for example, cc it once and it has a 10 second immunity afterwards, or cc it 3 times within 5 seconds of one another and it gains immunity for 30 seconds or something. Make cc rewarding in pve and not a disaster fest with 30+ defiant stacks…
CC is only really bad if you are the one taking aggro from many mobs at once, at which point it can be annoying and fatal. In those, situations, what we really need is more optimization so we can see the tells and use dodge, etc. to avoid them. In the meantime, you can try to anticipate based on past experience, and try not to be the guy who rushes into a dozen risen spiders solo.
In normal situations — running around Orr hitting nodes, exploring, etc. — CC is fine.
Considering Vets usually come with other non-vets, it’s safe to say they are advance content. The game shouldn’t be downgraded so everything is as easy as a pair of regular mobs.
So you’re playing solo content with groups and because of that you’re saying thakitten shouldn’t get DR?
Take note that most not group events have veterans, group events have champions. I have never seen anyone claim that veterans are group content before.
They are short lasting but very accessible, more so on some professions than others. I agree with DR on controlling effects but not after 1. Maybe after like 3 or 4 cc effects you gain immunity AFTERWARDS for a couple seconds. This removes the ping pong effect you see in wvw.
Maybe this can replace defiant as well. Except the number of cc before immunity and the duration of immunity would vary. So for example, cc it once and it has a 10 second immunity afterwards, or cc it 3 times within 5 seconds of one another and it gains immunity for 30 seconds or something. Make cc rewarding in pve and not a disaster fest with 30+ defiant stacks…
I’ll second this. It’s not one CC that kills you, it’s only death when they’re spammed.
(edited by Mirta.5029)
They are short lasting but very accessible, more so on some professions than others. I agree with DR on controlling effects but not after 1. Maybe after like 3 or 4 cc effects you gain immunity AFTERWARDS for a couple seconds. This removes the ping pong effect you see in wvw.
Maybe this can replace defiant as well. Except the number of cc before immunity and the duration of immunity would vary. So for example, cc it once and it has a 10 second immunity afterwards, or cc it 3 times within 5 seconds of one another and it gains immunity for 30 seconds or something. Make cc rewarding in pve and not a disaster fest with 30+ defiant stacks…
That is a possible solution, namely for the mob’s immunity. Defiance is pretty sucky, currently.
An addition to your suggestion I’d make: combine it with current Defiance. Make it so the defiance stacks decay naturally along with CC eating through it…say 1 stack of defiance every 2 seconds…so when you get 30+ stacks, yeah, they are going to be resistant for a while, but you can burn it down a bit faster and eventually it will be vulnerable on its own. I suggest this mainly because there needs to be some visual cue that tells you CC can work. It’d basically work like a timer you can monitor.
Another suggestion I might make for player immunity, is have it linked to Endurance. The less endurance you have, the longer the immunity. Your replenishing endurance would emulate you recovering after being locked. Having full endurance when the immunity kicks in basically just shortens the current lock. The idea being, you should be dodging to avoid these CC and if you still get CC’ed over 3 times despite having dodged and used your breaks, THEN you need some reprise.
In the meantime, you can try to anticipate based on past experience, and try not to be the guy who rushes into a dozen risen spiders solo.
In normal situations — running around Orr hitting nodes, exploring, etc. — CC is fine.
I actually started doing this, charging into a dozen risen spiders before everyone else.
On my Elementalist, I tend to use Focus off-hand so Swirling Winds negates it all.
On my Warrior, I have GS/Hammer. If I have adrenaline, I’ll rush in with an Earthshaker to interrupt followed by a swap Whirlwind to evade/move through them. If timed wrong then yeah, you’re going to get yanked. If timed right, it basically negates them and leaves them to be slaughtered in safety.
So you’re playing solo content with groups and because of that you’re saying thakitten shouldn’t get DR?
Take note that most not group events have veterans, group events have champions. I have never seen anyone claim that veterans are group content before.
You sure do enjoy jumping to conclusions.
It’s all relative to your skill level. For some players, Vets are not easy and they usually come with more than just Vets. Regardless of skill level, regular mobs are not difficult unless faced with numbers beyond what a solo player will normally face (read: group scaled content).
If you’re faced with 20 spiders or whatever, you either f&@$ed up because you were trying to run from them and trained more together, or you’re intentionally gathering masses of mobs to be killed. I don’t see why the game has to have more training wheels put on because of those scenarios. Bring up a valid scenario and perhaps we have something we can discuss with a more objective goal in mind.
CC is only really bad if you are the one taking aggro from many mobs at once, at which point it can be annoying and fatal. In those, situations, what we really need is more optimization so we can see the tells and use dodge, etc. to avoid them. In the meantime, you can try to anticipate based on past experience, and try not to be the guy who rushes into a dozen risen spiders solo.
In normal situations — running around Orr hitting nodes, exploring, etc. — CC is fine.
I think the main issue isn’t pve, it’s places like wvw and spvp where you can get chained cc and unless you have stability/invul you die. It really isn’t fun, its bad enough you take 10-20k in a couple seconds.
If you fight a heavy cc depending zerg you will know what I’m talking about. It is literally rag doll ping pong and you cannot possibly react to that. Dodge once, dodge again, still cc inc. It’s insane sometimes.
If you’re faced with 20 spiders or whatever, you either f&@$ed up because you were trying to run from them and trained more together, or you’re intentionally gathering masses of mobs to be killed.
Or you’re in part of a dynamic event. My example above with the centaurs trampling my warrior happened for an event to defend Earthworks Bluff. Waves of centaurs came running in. It’s not a group event. Just a bunch of chained knock downs. Yes. One after another after another.
In another example, I was in Orr and an event spawned where there were spiders attacking a nearby outpost. Or escort — not sure which. Doesn’t matter, because my character was chain-controlled until death. I used a stunbreaker, but of course that didn’t help since I was just knocked down/pulled again.
Boy! I’m sure glad I ran into that group of spiders! I totally knew what I was getting myself into, and could easily have prevented that! Except… that when they all spawned, my character was right in the middle of them. Fun! I really like sitting there watching my character die and being unable to do anything to prevent it!
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