Suggestion for long-duration stealth fix
I thought they removed the ability to C&D off walls? or did I dream that..?
NSP>ET>SoS>BG>ET>SoS>JQ>SoS>Mag>JQ
My fun laughs at your server pride.
My fun laughs at your server pride.
They did. And it’s back, although now the Revealed works correctly. Previously, you could recast C&D before stealth wore off and the Revealed wasn’t applied. Now it is working correctly – IE you’re Revealed if you re-C&D before it wears off. But you time it right and you’re only visible for a split second.
I’ve been guilty of abusing stealth. I’ll admit that. I also know that fighting someone who is almost entirely invisible for 5+ minutes (and yes, I’ve done that and longer) is horse crap.
As someone who plays every class, and sometimes loses to thieves, I still will never understand why people are so kittening hung-up on stealth.
Thieves are one of the squishiest classes with one of the lowest HP pools, I have always seen stealth as the only thing that saves them as a class.
I do see what the OP is saying about the fatigue thing, that is an interesting idea as c/d and/or D/P thieves can be annoying…But I find 9 times out of 10 people are just unwilling to walk away from a fight, if I see a perma-stealth thief I try to kill it, then if I don’t I usually just walk away.
Every once in a while there is one holed up in a keep or tower, and that is a pain but not impossible to stop….People in general just need to stop coming on here trying to get every class nerfed to hell just because they don’t like countering them.
Learn to walk away from a fight every once in a while, and let the noob perma-stealth thieves do what they are good at (being useless in general). If you chase them for 20 minutes, then you have allowed them to troll you to hell.
Mag Server Leader
As someone who plays every class, and sometimes loses to thieves, I still will never understand why people are so kittening hung-up on stealth.
Thieves are one of the squishiest classes with one of the lowest HP pools, I have always seen stealth as the only thing that saves them as a class.
I do see what the OP is saying about the fatigue thing, that is an interesting idea as c/d and/or D/P thieves can be annoying…But I find 9 times out of 10 people are just unwilling to walk away from a fight, if I see a perma-stealth thief I try to kill it, then if I don’t I usually just walk away.
Every once in a while there is one holed up in a keep or tower, and that is a pain but not impossible to stop….People in general just need to stop coming on here trying to get every class nerfed to hell just because they don’t like countering them.
Learn to walk away from a fight every once in a while, and let the noob perma-stealth thieves do what they are good at (being useless in general). If you chase them for 20 minutes, then you have allowed them to troll you to hell.
OP isn’t talking bout fighting thieves, He is talking bout a group staying behind, stealth, after losing a tower, staying stealthed for 5 minutes and then reflipping it WITHOUT breaking down a wall/door. Completely different.
NSP>ET>SoS>BG>ET>SoS>JQ>SoS>Mag>JQ
My fun laughs at your server pride.
My fun laughs at your server pride.
make exit stealth give revield and make smoke field + leap grant blind to the target hit instead of stealth problem solved
Commander Korsbaek lvl 80 Guardian
Ayano Yagami lvl 80 ele
Ayano Yagami lvl 80 ele
As someone who plays every class, and sometimes loses to thieves, I still will never understand why people are so kittening hung-up on stealth.
Thieves are one of the squishiest classes with one of the lowest HP pools, I have always seen stealth as the only thing that saves them as a class.
I do see what the OP is saying about the fatigue thing, that is an interesting idea as c/d and/or D/P thieves can be annoying…But I find 9 times out of 10 people are just unwilling to walk away from a fight, if I see a perma-stealth thief I try to kill it, then if I don’t I usually just walk away.
Every once in a while there is one holed up in a keep or tower, and that is a pain but not impossible to stop….People in general just need to stop coming on here trying to get every class nerfed to hell just because they don’t like countering them.
Learn to walk away from a fight every once in a while, and let the noob perma-stealth thieves do what they are good at (being useless in general). If you chase them for 20 minutes, then you have allowed them to troll you to hell.
This. this. this. this. Alot of times people will get distracted from the objectives in WvW, and run 10 miles chasing that one thief that managed to get away from your group. You are walking right into his trap if you do that. If you are still dead set on killing the thief, really all you have to do is stand in the smoke field when they pop blackpowder. The thief will get revealed when he trys to HS through the field and hits you. I used this tactic when i was dueling another pstealth thief, as it was obvious the winner would be the one who could get the other revealed first.
As someone who plays every class, and sometimes loses to thieves, I still will never understand why people are so kittening hung-up on stealth.
Thieves are one of the squishiest classes with one of the lowest HP pools, I have always seen stealth as the only thing that saves them as a class.
I do see what the OP is saying about the fatigue thing, that is an interesting idea as c/d and/or D/P thieves can be annoying…But I find 9 times out of 10 people are just unwilling to walk away from a fight, if I see a perma-stealth thief I try to kill it, then if I don’t I usually just walk away.
Every once in a while there is one holed up in a keep or tower, and that is a pain but not impossible to stop….People in general just need to stop coming on here trying to get every class nerfed to hell just because they don’t like countering them.
Learn to walk away from a fight every once in a while, and let the noob perma-stealth thieves do what they are good at (being useless in general). If you chase them for 20 minutes, then you have allowed them to troll you to hell.
OP isn’t talking bout fighting thieves, He is talking bout a group staying behind, stealth, after losing a tower, staying stealthed for 5 minutes and then reflipping it WITHOUT breaking down a wall/door. Completely different.
“It would also provide a fight time limit for Thieves that are hidden for the majority of the fight – if the thief spends more time invisible than visible, eventually the Fatigue will catch up.”
Sounds like he is talking about thieves in fights to me, at least in that regard.
Bravo to a well organized group of a thieves I would say, and for shame for not getting
together enough people to sweep the objective. My server has been guilty of shoddy sweep jobs, and we lost those objectives.
We have also stopped many mesmer/thief combos because during those times we were more than willing to devote 20+ people to sweeping them out. Granted it can be frustrating but just because you don’t see them doesn’t mean they aren’t taking dmg.
If you zerg an objective with 30+ people and leave it to be swept by 2-5 randoms that stay behind you can rest assured you will lose it if there is a thief/mesmer combo, that can organize the enemy for the portal.
Mag Server Leader
“make exit stealth give revield and make smoke field + leap grant blind to the target hit instead of stealth problem solved”
I think that’s an interesting idea, but it only solves one form of stealth abuse. A P/D thief will never come out of stealth. A group with 2 thieves can remain stealthed indefinitely. Heck, a single thief can. I’ve done dolyak escorts solo where the yak was never visible. So I think your idea about fixing P/D is not bad, the over-arching problem is indefinite stealth, regardless of how it was applied or maintained.
As for whether I’m addressing fighting thieves directly or dealing with tower defense and trolling – both. I’m usually on the offending side, but like it or not, it is neither fun to lose a hard-earned objective due to permanently invisible people, nor is it the intention of the WvW creators, who have spent much time crafting a balance between a fun and challenging experience.
nor is it the intention of the WvW creators, who have spent much time crafting a balance between a fun and challenging experience.
For the most part I agree with you, but from what I remember back when Portals were the hotbutton kitten of the day on the forums, the devs said they were working as intended when applied to portaling people in closed keeps.
Mag Server Leader
As someone who plays every class, and sometimes loses to thieves, I still will never understand why people are so kittening hung-up on stealth.
Thieves are one of the squishiest classes with one of the lowest HP pools, I have always seen stealth as the only thing that saves them as a class.
I do see what the OP is saying about the fatigue thing, that is an interesting idea as c/d and/or D/P thieves can be annoying…But I find 9 times out of 10 people are just unwilling to walk away from a fight, if I see a perma-stealth thief I try to kill it, then if I don’t I usually just walk away.
Every once in a while there is one holed up in a keep or tower, and that is a pain but not impossible to stop….People in general just need to stop coming on here trying to get every class nerfed to hell just because they don’t like countering them.
Learn to walk away from a fight every once in a while, and let the noob perma-stealth thieves do what they are good at (being useless in general). If you chase them for 20 minutes, then you have allowed them to troll you to hell.
OP isn’t talking bout fighting thieves, He is talking bout a group staying behind, stealth, after losing a tower, staying stealthed for 5 minutes and then reflipping it WITHOUT breaking down a wall/door. Completely different.
“It would also provide a fight time limit for Thieves that are hidden for the majority of the fight – if the thief spends more time invisible than visible, eventually the Fatigue will catch up.”
Sounds like he is talking about thieves in fights to me, at least in that regard.
Bravo to a well organized group of a thieves I would say, and for shame for not getting
together enough people to sweep the objective. My server has been guilty of shoddy sweep jobs, and we lost those objectives.We have also stopped many mesmer/thief combos because during those times we were more than willing to devote 20+ people to sweeping them out. Granted it can be frustrating but just because you don’t see them doesn’t mean they aren’t taking dmg.
If you zerg an objective with 30+ people and leave it to be swept by 2-5 randoms that stay behind you can rest assured you will lose it if there is a thief/mesmer combo, that can organize the enemy for the portal.
While I’ve been one of those mesmers that has abused the thief/mesmer combo, A LOT, I’ll say I think the big issue with this is that there are many things (besides walls) that you can stealth off of (heck there’s even the random outcropping bridge thing that does NOTHING in one of the spawn towers). The problem is they can stealth off of things which technically take no ‘damage’, which i think should be changed. I’ve seen thieves able to sit in stealth in a corner on a tiny breakable wall (I’m staring at you random tiny wall piece on south bay!), and then the moment they see someone coming, they just jump down to, for instance, the water gate walls in bay, etc. Since you don’t get knocked out of stealth if you take damage, they can easily move around. It’s not as much as an issue in keeps, where thieves mostly stay in the outer, and if there’s not mesmers, then they can’t do much. The issue I think is in towers, where unless you lay an AoE trap or something similar on every inch of wall, door, stair, etc, it’s very easy to miss a thief.
I personally think they should change it so you can only get stealth off of things you COULD damage as a thief. This wouldn’t affect the play on the field, it would only cut down on people stealthing off of walls, which is a really silly mechanic. People say “well if you chase a thief for 20 minutes, you’ve been trolled”, which is applicable in the field, but now think of that thief in your keep. You basically HAVE to chase him around. Even using my mesmer stealths I’ve kept 5 people in Bay chasing me for over 10 minutes until they brought a zerg on my head. (stealth, stealth, portal back somewhere, stealth, stealth, repeat), and I can’t even stealth off walls or gates or other people!
TC Golden Dolyak – [DOLY]
Mesmer – FURY
Rank 55 – Bunker Engi, Top 300
Mesmer – FURY
Rank 55 – Bunker Engi, Top 300
While I’ve been one of those mesmers that has abused the thief/mesmer combo, A LOT, I’ll say I think the big issue with this is that there are many things (besides walls) that you can stealth off of (heck there’s even the random outcropping bridge thing that does NOTHING in one of the spawn towers). The problem is they can stealth off of things which technically take no ‘damage’, which i think should be changed. I’ve seen thieves able to sit in stealth in a corner on a tiny breakable wall (I’m staring at you random tiny wall piece on south bay!), and then the moment they see someone coming, they just jump down to, for instance, the water gate walls in bay, etc. Since you don’t get knocked out of stealth if you take damage, they can easily move around. It’s not as much as an issue in keeps, where thieves mostly stay in the outer, and if there’s not mesmers, then they can’t do much. The issue I think is in towers, where unless you lay an AoE trap or something similar on every inch of wall, door, stair, etc, it’s very easy to miss a thief.
I personally think they should change it so you can only get stealth off of things you COULD damage as a thief. This wouldn’t affect the play on the field, it would only cut down on people stealthing off of walls, which is a really silly mechanic. People say “well if you chase a thief for 20 minutes, you’ve been trolled”, which is applicable in the field, but now think of that thief in your keep. You basically HAVE to chase him around. Even using my mesmer stealths I’ve kept 5 people in Bay chasing me for over 10 minutes until they brought a zerg on my head. (stealth, stealth, portal back somewhere, stealth, stealth, repeat), and I can’t even stealth off walls or gates or other people!
Personally I have no problem with any of that other than the ability to stealth off of a wall target. It is really just another layer of the game that is unique to two classes, I mean every class has something they do well. They might not all translate well to WvW, which I think is a problem for some people.
I think the thing that doesn’t bother me about it is that generally speaking for the scenario to work, you need 3 things:
Good Mesmer
Good Thief
Zerg/server willing to listen and organize to the portal
With that being said I have seen portal recaps fail more times than succeed. The times I have seen them succeed it was guild groups, or it was a situation where two portals or two mesmers were needed because the PUGs have no clue what is going on, as they don’t read chat.
Mag Server Leader
Yep. Whenever someone says “coming from a thief” and then proposes a nerf, it is BS.
Huh? My thief is named “Tired of OP” on FA, has 540 skill points after spending 50+ on superior ACs, WvW rank 42 or 43, and my max backstab on a player not down-leveled is 14.2k
Let me assure you, I’m a thief. Heck, I even had someone I insta-gibbed start a “nerf thieves” topic a few days ago:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Why-Not-Balance-Thieves-In-WvW-Like-Spvp/first
Let me assure you: I’m a thief.
They never removed the ability to CnD on walls. CnDing walls was just bugged, and even if you did it while stealthed, it did not reveal you. It gave you the debuff, but you were still stealthed fine, and could keep doing it. Knowing this, you should all also now realize that CnDing walls in intended design by Anet, or they would of removed it instead of just fixing the bug associated with it.
Also: this idea is kind of dumb, and removes one of the fun things thieves get to do. Follow the enemy zerg and report their position without anyone knowing youre there. Im not a fan of removing any of things thief can actually do, since its so useless in most aspects of WvW.
On February 26th patch: ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-February-26-2013 )
Cloak and Dagger: The player can no longer use this ability stack stealth by attacking WvW walls.
During that patch, it no longer worked at all. I was sad, but understood that it was never intended to work. Then with the May 14th patch, it started working again, although you would be properly revealed upon attempting to restealth before becoming visible.
I won’t believe that CnD’ing walls for stealth was ever intended until a red-name comes in and states it.
“stack stealth”
This the key part of that phrase from the fix. Stacking occurs from repeated use. They took that away and made it give the revealed debuff properly, as I originally said.
And I went out that very night and CnD’d walls to test it because the wording was funny, and they didnt say they removed the ability to do it, and it worked fine btw.
This is coming from a thief, so take that as you will.
I believe that there should be a mechanic to penalize long-duration stealth for thieves.
- Don’t lie, a telltale sign of a bad QQing because they got roflstomped by a Thief is a QQ thread that suggests stupidly idiotic nerfs while claiming to be a Thief main.
- A Thief in stealth is doing literally nothing besides running around doing no damage. A Thief could be stealthed for 10 straight minutes in GW2 and would still be perfectly balanced.
/thread
thiefhitfor2kbetternerf
all is vain
all is vain
Thieves are one of the squishiest classes with one of the lowest HP pools, I have always seen stealth as the only thing that saves them as a class.
They are squishy because that’s how nearly all thieves are built – by choice. There was a very good thief who posted videos explaining a regen thief who had great sustain. He was not squishy at all.
So many thieves out there are zerker built, and just spam ‘2’ to win. Rarely do you come across a good one that is crafty and plays well. Most the time they charge in hit their 1shot combo+ heartseeker spam, if it fails they stealth again and run (teleport) away. Good thieves outplay their opponents and not rely on insane burst to win.
boring post. how about you talk about mesmers or gaurdians
Thieves are one of the squishiest classes with one of the lowest HP pools, I have always seen stealth as the only thing that saves them as a class.
They are squishy because that’s how nearly all thieves are built – by choice. There was a very good thief who posted videos explaining a regen thief who had great sustain. He was not squishy at all.
So many thieves out there are zerker built, and just spam ‘2’ to win. Rarely do you come across a good one that is crafty and plays well. Most the time they charge in hit their 1shot combo+ heartseeker spam, if it fails they stealth again and run (teleport) away. Good thieves outplay their opponents and not rely on insane burst to win.
Mine has 3k armor, and does excellent damage all things considered. I build my thief (and all classes for that matter) for balance.
I find it boring to go full-on 12k crit zerker and skulk around looking for stragglers, I typically have minimum 2700 armor on any character I take into WvW. Over 3k on all of my heavy armor toons.
Mag Server Leader