Guild Wars 2

Please can you implement a Taxes and Tithes system for Guilds?

Taxes: Allow Guild leaders to set a percentage of member income to be given to the guild. This would automaticallybe drawn from all members sales or pick-ups based on the tax rate and placed into the Guilds Bank.

Tithes: Allow all members to increase their donation percentage at will.

This would allow for:

• Greater coordination in the purchase of Blueprints for WvW/Keep upgrades.
• Greater ability to coordinate the purchase of Commander titles.
• Greater ability to support guild members with particular purchases
• Greater ability to organise guild events that might cost a degree of money

This worked incredibly well in Warhammer Online. Please replicate it

The Tithes is a good idea, Tax is somewhat enforced though.

thebigredone.1269:

The Tithes is a good idea, Tax is somewhat enforced though.

Well yes they are, such is the purpose of a tax

It is down to each guild and its leadership to determine whether they even use the tax system as well as to determine the tax rate to ensure A. Guild members agree and B. That the tax level isn’t unreasonable.

Many guilds in Warhammer Online had Tax levels above 20% asmembers knew they would also benefit from such taxation, and as individuals realised they didn’t actually miss the money, it benefitted everyone.

Taxes are a bad idea. I don’t agree with the leader being able to literally “steal” any amount of money from his guildies. And I am guild leader.

What I would like to see is a system like in WoW, a guild perk you can gain with influence which INCREASES the gold drops of members by 5% or 10% (there can be different tiers) and the additional money goes in the bank. Then yes, I agree. But in no way I agree with reducing the member’s income.

Korrigan.4837:

Taxes are a bad idea. I don’t agree with the leader being able to literally “steal” any amount of money from his guildies. And I am guild leader.

What I would like to see is a system like in WoW, a guild perk you can gain with influence which INCREASES the gold drops of members by 5% or 10% (there can be different tiers) and the additional money goes in the bank. Then yes, I agree. But in no way I agree with reducing the member’s income.

1. How can it be stealing if it’s down to members to agree the taxation or if they’ll even use the system in the first place?

2. The perk you described is a tax system; you have simply shifted the goal posts.

3. Many members (if not most) would actually save money:

• They’d have no need to buy blue prints in WvW from their own money.
• They’d have no need to make large purchases as the guild bank could support them.
• They’d have no need to spend their own money on keep upgrades.

In reality, would you honestly miss 5% of your money? If you sold a sword on the Trading Post for 50copper, you’d automatically donate 2.5copper. This is hardly ground breaking for all the positive benefits.

If you would miss this money, then don’t use the tax system.

If you run the type of guild where members are unwilling to share wealth for the greater good, this clearly isn’t aimed at such people, but allow those of us who want to coordinate funds properly within our guild to have it.

Please don’t dismiss a feature because you don’t like it, especially when there would be the ability to turn it off or on dependant on the guilds choice.

I didn’t dismiss your feature, read my post again carefully. As you said, I shifted it. Instead of taking money aways from the actual income of guildies, I increase it and give the additional amount to the guild bank. Instead of penalizing my guild mates, I generate additional income just for the guild.
The result would be the same.
Maybe YOU like to punish your guild members, but I don’t

Lewis Burnell.2493:

3. Many members (if not most) would actually save money:

• They’d have no need to buy blue prints in WvW from their own money.
• They’d have no need to make large purchases as the guild bank could support them.
• They’d have no need to spend their own money on keep upgrades.

Think about this again, please… you realize that if the guild buys blueprints with the money earned from guild taxes, the members actually still pay for the blueprints with their own money? You know, even in “real life”, when the government builds that bridge with tax money, they do it with YOUR money… ;-)
Tell me, what’s the difference between buying a blueprint 1 silver, and giving 1 silver to the guild bank to it can buy a blueprint for you to use?
All I see in that system is the potential for abuses.

I honestly don’t see why you would complain about a feature you don’t have to use. If you don’t want it for your Guild you can simply set it to 0%.

A trebuchet blueprint costs 24 silver.
Say that you earn 50 silver each day. If your Guild went into WvWvW and you decide to use your trebuchet that would be half your daily income gone.

Now if the tax is set to 2% you would give 1 silver each day to the Guild bank. If your Guild has 24 members going into WvWvW they all lost 1 silver for the trebuchet instead of one guy losing 24 silver instantly.

So for this reason I would like a tax system as well.

Influence is used for guild unlocks, so why taxes?.

You may say otherwise, and you may even be an exception, but taxes in most games lead to corruption, as leaders keep part of them for themselves.

I’ve even seen cases of newbies getting taxes even though they didn’t know of it, and so their first much needed coins were reduced, greatly slowing down their initial progress.

If you need money from your members for a blueprint, just ask for it.

If you ask me, there should be a way to use influence to purchase those things as an alternative payment method, instead a tax.

Haldir is exactly right. This is about wealth distribution and sharing a burden. Considering a Golem costs 1g, I’m sure we’ve all encountered the situation where no one wants to purchase it, despite it being invaluable. Or, it’s always the same people putting their hands in their pockets.

It’s much better that 1g is spent from many members contributions over a period of time, rather than a single person.

In relation to the WoW system, it would unfortunately have economic reprocussions as it is physically generating wealth rather than taxing at the source. 100 people generating 15% additional income (out of nothing) which can then be withdrawn would really have an impact on the economy, hence why taxation at the source is the better solution.

In addition, the only abuse of the system is a rogue Guild Leader or Officer but I doubt that guild would last very long in such a situation. Considering its been used in Warhammer Online for years, to great success it really is a no brainer.

MithranArkanere.8957:

Influence is used for guild unlocks, so why taxes?.

You may say otherwise, and you may even be an exception, but taxes in most games lead to corruption, as leaders keep part of them for themselves.

I’ve even seen cases of newbies getting taxes even though they didn’t know of it, and so their first much needed coins were reduced, greatly slowing down their initial progress.

If you need money from your members for a blueprint, just ask for it.

If you ask me, there should be a way to use influence to purchase those things as an alternative payment method, instead a tax.

Why would people stay in such corrupt guilds and/or why would new players to such guilds not know, or be informed?

Again, there would be an option not to tax. If you don’t want it, don’t use it. If you use it, have your members agree on the figure. If your members don’t agree to it, they can leave.

I also think it’s sensationalist to suggest anyone would miss 5% or even 15% of their income. A credible and serious guild supports all new players.

Lewis Burnell.2493:

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Why would people stay in such corrupt guilds and/or why would new players to such guilds not know, or be informed?

[…]

Knowledge. If they don’t know that the leader and/or officers is skimming, leeching off their members, they can’t act on that.

It’s not as if the leader has receipts of anything they buy with that money.

And if influence was available for use to get things in WvW, or even commander tomes, I assure you people would still ask for taxes, because they don’t want the gold for stuff that’ll benefit the guild. They want it for themselves.
Humans are greedy.

MithranArkanere.8957:

Lewis Burnell.2493:

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Why would people stay in such corrupt guilds and/or why would new players to such guilds not know, or be informed?

[…]

Knowledge. If they don’t know that the leader and/or officers is skimming, leeching off their members, they can’t act on that.

It’s not as if the leader has receipts of anything they buy with that money.

And if influence was available for use to get things in WvW, or even commander tomes, I assure you people would still ask for taxes, because they don’t want the gold for stuff that’ll benefit the guild. They want it for themselves.
Humans are greedy.

Why would anyone join a guild they know nothing about? You’re confusing casual guilds (which really have no genuine need for such a system) and those that are more organised (have a recruitment process, website etc).

I’m a guild leader myself, and I don’t really like the idea of this.

First of all, the siege plueprint argument is kind of a moot point, because blueprints are soulbound (which is something I think is all kinds of wrong, but there it is). If a guild leader uses tax money to buy siege blueprints, only he can use those blueprints.
Besides, who seriously actually buys blueprints? I run through the WvW jumping puzzles once a day provided I can get to them (I’m able to run the eternal battlegrounds puzzle in just under 4 minutes if there’s no interference by enemy factions) and I know many people who do the same, so blueprints really are kind of a non-issue. I have at least a dozen arrow-carts and flamerams in my bank, and even 2 golems. I paid for none of them.

That point aside, I think the risk of corruption is just too great. The members do not need to agree with the taxation, the guild leader could just put it there without asking anyone. Not everybody would be willing to leave a guild over this. To think that it’d all be a democratic happy-land is just as naive as assuming the same were true of the real world. Are we asked if we agree with the taxes our governments put on us and use0 for stuff we may not even want them to (like giving it to banks and all that instead of doing something useful with it)?
So how would you make sure that it’s different in a guild environment? That’s right, you can’t.

I’m all for giving members an easy option to donate part of their sales etc. to the guild or having a guild buff that lets members earn extra and give that extra to the guild. But taxes? No. Just no.

Shyanmar.5936:

I’m a guild leader myself, and I don’t really like the idea of this.

First of all, the siege plueprint argument is kind of a moot point, because blueprints are soulbound (which is something I think is all kinds of wrong, but there it is). If a guild leader uses tax money to buy siege blueprints, only he can use those blueprints.
Besides, who seriously actually buys blueprints? I run through the WvW jumping puzzles once a day provided I can get to them (I’m able to run the eternal battlegrounds puzzle in just under 4 minutes if there’s no interference by enemy factions) and I know many people who do the same, so blueprints really are kind of a non-issue. I have at least a dozen arrow-carts and flamerams in my bank, and even 2 golems. I paid for none of them.

That point aside, I think the risk of corruption is just too great. The members do not need to agree with the taxation, the guild leader could just put it there without asking anyone. Not everybody would be willing to leave a guild over this. To think that it’d all be a democratic happy-land is just as naive as assuming the same were true of the real world. Are we asked if we agree with the taxes our governments put on us and use0 for stuff we may not even want them to (like giving it to banks and all that instead of doing something useful with it)?
So how would you make sure that it’s different in a guild environment? That’s right, you can’t.

I’m all for giving members an easy option to donate part of their sales etc. to the guild or having a guild buff that lets members earn extra and give that extra to the guild. But taxes? No. Just no.

Then don’t use the tax system, Shyan?

I’m unsure of your guild, but my own (Semper Dius, a prominent EU guild that’s been going for many years) relies heavily on democracy and we always have (we never make a decision without guild member consensus). What would be the value of a guild otherwise? In the example you raise, a guild leader could distribute the money during WvW events for individuals to purchase Blueprints as jumping puzzles aren’t always available (certainly not with our WvW queues!).

I don’t understand however why you would be against such an idea that worked so wonderfully in Warhammer Online, just because of a risk of corruption when you don’t have to use it. It really is that simple.

If a guild leader put in a tax rate of 50% against the wishes of his members, what member would honestly stay? And if they did, then that is their choice (or stupidity). Players are part of guilds through choice, they aren’t forced to remain.

I know Dius ran a poll many years ago to agree to the tax rate for our Guild in Warhammer Online with people agreeing 20% was absolutely fine.

But again, I’m describing its use for wider purposes outside of WvW, such as supporting members crafting, item purchases or any other use the guild deem appropriate.

Lastly, the guild “gold” buff really isn’t an option as it would have a too greater impact on the economy. It has to be drawn from the source.

Why are you people in a Guild if you don’t trust your Guild leader anyway?

Lewis Burnell.2493:

Why would anyone join a guild they know nothing about? You’re confusing casual guilds (which really have no genuine need for such a system) and those that are more organised (have a recruitment process, website etc).

If a Guild is organised then they should be organised enough to accept donations into the Guild Bank from their members.
Why would you require a tax? To force members to contribute perhaps? To force some members to subsidise the activities of others?

There is currently nothing on which a Guild can spend money except a bigger Guild licence. A Guild can already collect money centrally and then one person can go and spend it and that does not require a tax. Blueprints are bound to individual characters (which is a different issue) and therefore having an enforced tax to buy them is unreasonable especially when you already have the ability to accept donations from your members centrally.

A tithe option is the better of these ideas. A member would quite likely not miss 5% of their earnings at any point and might feel considerably more disposed to donate 1g over the course of a week’s play rather than play for a week and then donate that same gold at the end. It is the same thing ultimately but it is psychological to the player.

If items such as blueprints could be purchased centrally and stored in the bank for the use of anyone in the Guild then that would be a rather different matter – but still one that should in almost all cases be funded by tithe or donations rather than a tax.

Great idea. It gets my full support.
It supports the feeling of playing “for” a guild and on top of that the guild gets supported towards the pro points the topic starter posted without the members feeling bad about having to donate a certain amount of money.

GW2 design mantra is “is it fun”.

Well, in most people’s experience…. getting taxed isn’t fun.

Call it something else and you’ll probably have an easier time selling the idea.

Serindial.8973:

GW2 design mantra is “is it fun”.

Well, in most people’s experience…. getting taxed isn’t fun.

Call it something else and you’ll probably have an easier time selling the idea.

Haha, OK. Let’ call it Guild Charity.

There should not ever be a guild tax. I could see the ability to make it so you get a specific benfit based on the level of “donations” but a required tax guild is something I would never be a part of. I donate to a guild based on what I do with the guild, to tax me if I join a guild and have not done anything with them is just wrong.

Make it where the level of donations affect your level of guild benefits and I would be much happier than a “guild charity”. A tax by any name is still a tax. I could call it a “Guild cotton candy feeling fluffy bunny cute kitten support requirement” and it STILL is a tax.

Lewis Burnell.2493:

Haha, OK. Let’ call it Guild Charity.

In which case you are back to the donations or tithe options and a tax is not required or desirable.

Bolthar.4172:

There should not ever be a guild tax. I could see the ability to make it so you get a specific benfit based on the level of “donations” but a required tax guild is something I would never be a part of. I donate to a guild based on what I do with the guild, to tax me if I join a guild and have not done anything with them is just wrong.

Make it where the level of donations affect your level of guild benefits and I would be much happier than a “guild charity”. A tax by any name is still a tax. I could call it a “Guild cotton candy feeling fluffy bunny cute kitten support requirement” and it STILL is a tax.

So let me get this straight…

You wouldn’t want a system implemented, that you don’t have to use, just because you don’t like it? Even though a great many guilds would utilise it, and deeply appreciate it?

I’ll re-stress this for those struggling to read…

• You aren’t forced to use it.
• It’s optional.
• It is entirely the choice of the guild.
• You turn it off or on in the Guild options.

Guilds who do want to use it simply turn it on, and set the tax limit.

This suggestion won’t be for everyone or every guild I completely understand that, but professional, long term and dare I say “hardcore guilds” would definitely appreciate this.

My reference to Guild Charity was a joke by the way, it should still be called a Guild Tax

Lewis Burnell.2493:

This suggestion won’t be for everyone or every guild I completely understand that, but professional, long term and dare I say “hardcore guilds” would definitely appreciate this.

What you mean is Lewis Burnell would appreciate this… some others might also. To claim that a tax is required by or even desirable to professionals or hardcore players is a gross generalisation and unreasonable.

I can see that your idea of a tithe system has significant merit because you achieve your goal of getting central funds to accumulate with no effort on the part of your members, the choice to donate and how much to donate is left to the individual player rather than being forced into something. You also avoid the rather prickly issue of a tax that by your own comments is not required anyway.

Why not drop the tax idea and push the tithe option instead? You might gain greater support that way.

Why don`t they just make the items you need to buy for wvw cost karma instead of coin? People could donate karma since that is something everyone makes pretty fast. With the costs of repairs, ports, skins and whatever else you need , lets the players keep what little they earn but be able to donate karma.

Given the price of some of the higher tier Karma items, I do not think that most people would consider Karma to be more readily available than coin.

It could be worthwhile to allow a Guild to purchase blueprints with influence though.
They could go straight to the Guild Bank when purchased and fixed as bind on acquire so that whoever removes them from the bank has to be the one to use them.

Most if not all guild tax systems end in in benefiting a selected few at the cost of the majority. Democracy? You got to be kidding me. When the whole guild finances (e.g.) the siege engines of a part of the guild, then there’s no democracy, it’s called a rip off.
From reading his subsequent posts, I now know where the OP is coming from. And as a guild leader, I will never support such mechanisms.

And by the way, you have already mechanisms in place to make siege engines cheaper through guild influence. That’s all what is needed, and it benefits everyone don’t WvW without having to fork out personal gold.

PS: There’s no “professional” here. We are all players of a video game. Just to make this clear too.

Um if EVERY guild has the OPTIONAL ability to use it and I am in said guild BEFORE its done and I am not aware of it then it WOULD affect me. I can read just fine and your attempt to belitle my post because I replied as to WHY taxes are a bad thing just goes to show your trollish state of mind. Lay off the ayttacks on people who don’t agree with your ideas for a guild system and work with what people think “could” be viable options. I am not the only one posting saying that TAXES = Bad but DONATIONS for benifits = good.

Korrigan.4837:

Most if not all guild tax systems end in in benefiting a selected few at the cost of the majority. Democracy? You got to be kidding me. When the whole guild finances (e.g.) the siege engines of a part of the guild, then there’s no democracy, it’s called a rip off.
From reading his subsequent posts, I now know where the OP is coming from. And as a guild leader, I will never support such mechanisms.

And by the way, you have already mechanisms in place to make siege engines cheaper through guild influence. That’s all what is needed, and it benefits everyone don’t WvW without having to fork out personal gold.

PS: There’s no “professional” here. We are all players of a video game. Just to make this clear too.

How is it called a rip-off when its benefitting the entire guild, during WvW events? We hold regular such events. Instead of us always having to say “Please send X to Y”, a tax system removes all that hassle.

Professional is a term I was using to describe guilds that aren’t casual. i.e those with strict recruitment methods, hosted websites, ventrillo servers and regular events. Rather than those that invite anyone just from a /whisper. A tax system clearly wouldn’t be of much use to such guilds, considering it isn’t a rigid or structured environment.

Finally, and it cannot be said enough: if your guild doesn’t need it don’t use it.

Bolthar.4172:

Um if EVERY guild has the OPTIONAL ability to use it and I am in said guild BEFORE its done and I am not aware of it then it WOULD affect me. I can read just fine and your attempt to belitle my post because I replied as to WHY taxes are a bad thing just goes to show your trollish state of mind. Lay off the ayttacks on people who don’t agree with your ideas for a guild system and work with what people think “could” be viable options. I am not the only one posting saying that TAXES = Bad but DONATIONS for benifits = good.

Again, this clearly isn’t a option that affects you or your guild. With the option to turn it off, you wouldn’t be effected. Evidently however you’re struggling to grasp the option to tax guild members. What’s wrong with having such an option?

And no you aren’t the only one against it, but you are also one of the people here completely ignoring the positives and the ability to not use the system. Clearly you’ve also never played Warhammer Online and the success of such a system.

Either or, you’ve made your case against while failing to consider those of us who do want such a feature (of which there are many guilds: again, see WAR).

I’m struggling to understand the mindset behind opposing a system just because you don’t want it, despite it being optional. That’s like me saying I don’t want Warriors in the game just because I don’t like them.

A tax does not benefit the entire Guild. In your scenario, it only benefits those who are able to break through the queues into the world.

Furthermore, your tax in no way reduces the requirement for you to “send X to Y” unless all of your Guild members are able to remove items and money from the Guild Bank and all have the instant Guild Bank at my feet upgrade.
Having a central fund means you have the ability as a leader to easily send funds where easily because you have the funds… it does not mean that you do not have to send money to the player needing to pay for an upgrade or purchase a character-bound blueprint.

There are plenty of casual yet organised Guilds with recruitment methods, rules, voice servers, websites, scheduled events etc etc. None of those things makes you professional.

It cannot be said enough: no Guild needs it since you can already achieve the same things in game by having your professional and hand-picked members donate to a central fund. A tax benefits in the same way (and no more) than regular donations would but it annoys a lot of people.

Im all for taxes.

Blitz.3627:

A tax does not benefit the entire Guild. In your scenario, it only benefits those who are able to break through the queues into the world.

Furthermore, your tax in no way reduces the requirement for you to “send X to Y” unless all of your Guild members are able to remove items and money from the Guild Bank and all have the instant Guild Bank at my feet upgrade.
Having a central fund means you have the ability as a leader to easily send funds where easily because you have the funds… it does not mean that you do not have to send money to the player needing to pay for an upgrade or purchase a character-bound blueprint.

There are plenty of casual yet organised Guilds with recruitment methods, rules, voice servers, websites, scheduled events etc etc. None of those things makes you professional.

It cannot be said enough: no Guild needs it since you can already achieve the same things in game by having your professional and hand-picked members donate to a central fund. A tax benefits in the same way (and no more) than regular donations would but it annoys a lot of people.

What a tax system does do is remove the hassle though, without ever having to fish or remind individuals to donate. A tax in my guilds circumstance certainly would benefit all, it’s a little assumptive to pressume it wouldn’t. Again, I’m not just describing a guilds tax system to the benefit of WvW but also crafting, perhaps the purchase of crafting ingrediants, rare armour or weapons for players who need them.

All this flexibility comes with it, with access again determined by the guild and its members. If need be, you could always add an option NOT to be taxed. I don’t see why that would be a problem

It’s about giving players and guild options.

This is something ive been thinking about, because it’s boring to check have everyone payed their taxes for the guild! Automatic system for this would be awesome

Lewis Burnell.2493:

Clearly you’ve also never played Warhammer Online and the success of such a system.

I think most if not all MMORPG veterans know about the smashing success of Warhammer Online… or without the sarcasm, the failure of that game. Most if not all concepts of that game were flawed – it’s one of the worse examples you could use as game to take inspiration from.

And to answer another part of your post without quoting it (because I’m lazy and want to play GW2 right now…): we are not against the idea, we are against the way you suggest to implement it. Reducing an already low gold income, taxing every single transaction someone worked hard for, I don’t agree with that. That’s why I suggest going the “bonus gold” route: don’t touch the actual income, but add a percentage over it as guild income. My guild is “professional” by your standards, we have strict recruitment, a guild website, voice chat, etc… but our players are all married people with a life outside of the game, and some would not like the benefit of the little game time they have reduced even more. I LIKE the idea of a way to add guild income, I dislike the idea of reducing the actual income of my guild mates to achieve it.

Korrigan.4837:

Lewis Burnell.2493:

Clearly you’ve also never played Warhammer Online and the success of such a system.

I think most if not all MMORPG veterans know about the smashing success of Warhammer Online… or without the sarcasm, the failure of that game. Most if not all concepts of that game were flawed – it’s one of the worse examples you could use as game to take inspiration from.

And to answer another part of your post without quoting it (because I’m lazy and want to play GW2 right now…): we are not against the idea, we are against the way you suggest to implement it. Reducing an already low gold income, taxing every single transaction someone worked hard for, I don’t agree with that. That’s why I suggest going the “bonus gold” route: don’t touch the actual income, but add a percentage over it as guild income. My guild is “professional” by your standards, we have strict recruitment, a guild website, voice chat, etc… but our players are all married people with a life outside of the game, and some would not like the benefit of the little game time they have reduced even more. I LIKE the idea of a way to add guild income, I dislike the idea of reducing the actual income of my guild mates to achieve it.

Warhammer online was fine. The game didnt kill itself. Devs with bad patch timing or failed patches killed it

I am so against it because I am 100% against any single option that gives the guild leaders entire control over getting money from their membership of players without first notifying and asking if the users in said guild want it.

If your a guild leader you are supposed to be encouraging users to donate items/gold to help out the guild by playing with those who join the guild or setitng up things the Guild members want to do. You are not supposed to be sitting there saying I want to tick a box and just try and recruit as many people as I can just so I can gather their money until I get the next item to make my guild better.

What your proposing is just this type of scenario and IMHO NO guild leader should ever have that kind of power.

What happens if I join a guild I don’t play for a week. Someone leaves as a guild leader while I am not playing and someone else steps up and ticks the little guild tax box and I log in and start playing. My money income drops and I don’t notice it right away and I realize that the new guild leader isn’t doing ANYTHING to warrant me staying. I have then just paid into a guild I no longer want to be a part of.

Another scenario – I have someone recruit me to a guild saying things “will be cool” and “we will worship you”. I join the guild, and it has a tax. I then decide to give it awhile because they indicate they are going through a transition. All the time taxing me. I then find out the guild is a scrub guild and noone is helping anyone else. I leave but then all that time I was taxed and I got nothing from being a member of the guild.

I am not saying this is what YOU would do. I am not saying this is your intention. I am just saying this is 100% why I am so dead set on an option I would NEVER use even if I was a guild leader as this option can be ABUSED. Someone playing a Warrior when I don’t want to be a Warrior is an irrelevant arguement because that can’t be abused to affect everyone in the guild.

Basically this option to me begs of scammy leaders who just start recruiting people just to get more gold in their coffers. That is why I am so against the tax system and much more intrigued by the benifits of the guild membership to increase along with the donations.

Why not make a daily achievement for the guild, and as players complete it, guild gets a bonus for it?
Make it something guild members would have to go out of their way to do, like visit x number of hearts in a zone or something… then the guild members are out nothing but time, and the guild, as a whole, benefits.