Guild Wars 2

Before we start. I would like to see clean conversation in this thread. This is mostly covering PvE “endgame” side of things. There is some lengthy video watching and possibly some reading.

I’m a PvE guy and I feel Guild Wars 2 is missing something, something…big. I have been thinking about this for a while and have been debating on posting about it until after watching a GuildCast video that was posted on the Dec. 27th on Youtube. I don’t really keep up with these, but this title really got me.
Here’s the video: Please watch!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQx9gIlaQ-s (I have no idea how to embed videos)
I recommend watching this whole videos, but for the purpose of this video I will point out the related topics.

32:49 – 44:47 Mostly guild/social talk and some endgame
53:03 – 57:52 More on endgame

Now assuming you watched the video, how does everyone feel about this? I think something is missing both on PvE and the PvP side. Obviously there is more to do on the PvP side with the whole WvW thing, and all that’s missing is some of the things said in the video.

I feel we should have something like raids. These meta events that were meant to replace raids just aren’t cutting it. You sit and spam one thing, revive players and wait for the next phase to begin. Where is the challenge to some thing other than bosses hitting hard? I’m probably going to get told “then go back to World of Warcraft” for this, but I miss raiding. The feeling of getting a big group together and bringing down a powerful enemy that takes many tries is just satisfying to me.

I don’t know, maybe I’m the only one. I just feel like this game needs something to make it stick. The game is amazing but there IS something missing. Please don’t start a war over this. I know people weren’t expecting raids in this game, but I thought they were suppose to make something to substitute for them.

All I know is that all the games that copied WoW sadly disappear sooner or later.

This is something I’ve touched on briefly before, but I honestly think that instanced content with a lower player limit is the very antithesis of MMO.
MMOs should be about experiences with massive amounts of players and leveraging the advantages such quantities provide you with.
If you’re playing instances with limited numbers of players, you may as well being playing any other co-operative online game, from the original Guild Wars to Left 4 Dead.

This is the reason Fractals and Dungeons turn me off. They never change, they tell a set story, and playing them more than once offers ever decreasing returns in the enjoyment stakes.
Note however that this is purely my opinion and that I understand a lot of people enjoy repeating the same small amount of content with the same players over and over again.

So I say “Nay” to raids, and I’d go further and tell ArenaNet to reduce the amount of instanced content they’re planning to offer; try something that gets server populations involved instead. Something innovative, not iterative.

To raid or not to raid? Not to raid!

Since raids are pure and boring grind…… Not to raid.

Wow really great video, I’d say that their definitely feels like their is a void in both End-game and Social content. Raid’s without gear progression would be something that would at least IMO motivate more players to do endgame content with groups.

Layka.7465:

All I know is that all the games that copied WoW sadly disappear sooner or later.

So out of all that, where did you get that? This game to begin with is nothing like World of Warcraft. Raids in this game would just be harder dungeons with more people.

xCrusadentx.2784:

To raid or not to raid? Not to raid!

Nice feedback I suppose.

Ghoward.1306:

Since raids are pure and boring grind…… Not to raid.

And fractals and dungeons aren’t?

If you’re on the side that views fractals and dungeons as grind, then you should see why raids aren’t popular; we don’t need any more grind then we already have to deal with.

I don’t think things would be considered a grind if they weren’t so faceroll to do. From the dungeons I have done, the only thing challenging about the bosses is that they hit hard. I have only seen maybe a few mechanics from bosses since I have been playing this game.

I personally haven’t got anything against Raids. GW done larger group content well (better than WoW, imho), by making it a massive area in itself, with a quest chain to tell the story, which you got to get through it before you fight the final boss, as opposed to the linear approach most raids are constructed as nowadays, where you really, really can’t get lost.

However, rather than instanced raids, I’d much prefer them to add and improve the Meta-events (i.e. Dragons) into large scale raids in the world, where teamwork is essential, otherwise you will fail. Maybe hidden bosses / rare spawns that are down in caverns and such.

I’m sorry, I really don’t think GW2 would benefit from any sort of structured raid. What it does need is more end-game areas with large boss events with better rewards (and bigger repercussions for not running back when you die.)

I think the Temple of Grenth is a good example of a boss fight with interesting mechanics that will wipe the entire zerg if people don’t pay attention to them. But the boss himself is too much of a spank.

I think the Gates of Arah is a good example of a boss fight that’ll wreck your face off (like in that one movie with Nicholas Cage and John Travolta) if people aren’t paying attention to him, but he lacks interesting other mechanics.

When I go to Orr I hardly see anyone. Most people are at Cursed Shore waiting for events so they can farm them. I have done the Gates of Arah event, and I have to say, it was pretty hard. But all you have to do is stay out of the circles and wait for confusion to fall off so you’re not taking so much damage.

All I’m saying is the game needs more coordinated or challenging end game. Whether that be better meta events in zones or adding harder dungeon/raids. It just seems there is nothing that gives me that rush when downing something because it is so easy.

Raids wouldn’t have to be a grind. Dungeons atm are not grinds, the only grind we have is fotm and that’s because that’s how you get ascended rings. Nobody said raids have to have better gear to grind for. Maybe it can rewards skins that you can use to put on your items, skins without any stats. That wouldn’t require anybody to grind unless they really want that skin or they are a pve player and find stuff like that fun.

However, i find it hard for raids to work with real cordination in this game as there are no roles. A dungeon atm consists of 5 people that run through zerging every mob doing their own thing, there is no structure behind any dungeons, besides fotm abit.

EliteZ.1682:

Raids wouldn’t have to be a grind. Dungeons atm are not grinds, the only grind we have is fotm and that’s because that’s how you get ascended rings. Nobody said raids have to have better gear to grind for. Maybe it can rewards skins that you can use to put on your items, skins without any stats. That wouldn’t require anybody to grind unless they really want that skin or they are a pve player and find stuff like that fun.

However, i find it hard for raids to work with real cordination in this game as there are no roles. A dungeon atm consists of 5 people that run through zerging every mob doing their own thing, there is no structure behind any dungeons, besides fotm abit.

Exactly, you pretty much said some things stated in the videos. People are just scared of raids because of their experience in past mmos. There is this huge treadmill in other games were you have to farm the same raid or boss to get the one piece of gear you need to move on the the next raid or dungeon. In my eyes, that’s grinding. Dungeons now are pretty much the same way, but at least you get your own loot and tokens and have more variety of armor.

I’d argue that one of the reasons we’re not seeing masses of players regularly doing the big world events is that at 80, it costs too much in teleport fees to get to the next big event, you’ll stick to things close to where you currently are.
It’s definitely a barrier to my friends and I, and given how sparsely populated most areas of the game are now, I’d be willing to wager a majority of other people feel the same way.

So people are picking and choosing what they perceive to be the most rewarding events to ensure their teleport fees aren’t wasted and letting the others go ignored.

Although what you say Mungrul is true about teleport fee’s there and back, the world events are just not structured enough. You don’t need to be in a group with good team communication. It’s a simple matter of everyone do the same thing and zerg down the boss. They’re not challenging, not thrilling and there is no reason to keep redoing them. People want challenging content that they can redo for fun and not a gear grind. In WoW i raided, i had the gear, didn’t mean i stopped doing raids every week, i still did them because i like PVE over PVP and doing hard dungeons pushing yourself is what i find fun in MMO’s and that doesn’t mean release a new set of powerful armor every raid, just give us cosmetic rewards and we’ll be happy with being able to do something we enjoy. Atm the dungeons we have are simply to boring, to easy to keep going back and redoing, so once you’ve done them and fotm there isn’t really alot of PVE challenging end game

Nobody wants a remake of WoW raiding system, nobody wants massive gear treatmills. But we want challenging content that requires tactics, communication and hard work to complete and overcome with a group of friends.

robocafaz.9017:

I’m sorry, I really don’t think GW2 would benefit from any sort of structured raid. What it does need is more end-game areas with large boss events with better rewards (and bigger repercussions for not running back when you die.)

I think the Temple of Grenth is a good example of a boss fight with interesting mechanics that will wipe the entire zerg if people don’t pay attention to them. But the boss himself is too much of a spank.

I think the Gates of Arah is a good example of a boss fight that’ll wreck your face off (like in that one movie with Nicholas Cage and John Travolta) if people aren’t paying attention to him, but he lacks interesting other mechanics.

Orr is a great “raid” scenario that many people enjoy. However it has many flaws due to the fact that it isn’t organized. When one walks into Grenth, they usually walk in with the mindset that, “I’m goin to do damage, and stay alive. I’m sure someone else will work on getting downed people up or raise.” However it is clearly not the way that temple seems to work unless you get a kitten load of players screaming in map chat. Raids are basically organized temples of orr. Before going in, you would tell player X, “ok, work on getting downed people up” player Y, “You will keep boss busy with damage”, Player z “you and your group will take on addons” etc etc.

Now the whole comparison to World of Warcraft is both silly and bull kitten. The developers of ArenaNet approached many common MMO elements very differently and most of which with great success. OP isn’t asking for some 20-30 man party where you just grind out some unnecessary events. It is more along the lines of an organized dungeon with many people working together and not just for themselves. You just don’t get that sense of teamwork with a mere 5 man party or a couple dozen randoms in Orr… Not to mention it would promote more large scale guild events seeing as how there really arn’t many activities for guilds to do. Not everyone enjoys WvW.

That’s another thing. There is nothing large scale for guilds to do together. You only have those five people doing dungeons and that’s it. No one really levels or does meta events together, nor do we go to Orr. At least the guild I have been in.

Other MMOs, including but not limited to WoW, didn’t have the content for which they are currently known at release+4 months.

Give GW2 time. The basic design has merit, a more idealized implementation will follow; it happened in EQ, it happened in WoW, it happened in GW1.

But that’s the problem, Fildydarie. ArenaNet is making Guild Wars 2 different from every other mmo, so we might not ever see any sort of large scale dungeon/raid or more large scale challenging content.

ANet has challenged a lot of the fundamentals of MMO design. Nowhere have they said the don’t want to create interesting, complicated encounters, to the contrary, they have insisted they want to make content that is not exclusionary. You should be able to play the game and reap fair rewards for experiencing the content you enjoy. That fairly accurately sums up the key design elements; they know they need more large, organized content, but it takes effort and appeals to a subset of the player base—they have a full plate but are delivering new content and they are responsive… but 4 months is not a lot of time.

I’m not a level 80 yet so I really don’t know what is offered at level 80 at this point. I’m not sure what “The Lost Shores” brought to the table…but…in terms of raiding…why not offer a new super uber level map where trash mobs are very hard and every world boss is of legendary stature or an even higher level with more mechanics. Would need to have tons of players working together in an organized manner in this map that will still have the same type of dynamic event systems going on?

But, really difficult to pull off similar to a raid but not static and the same thing each time, but yet still in the open world that anyone can go to and isn’t limited to having a group of 20 to enter. Think, Rift Zone events at raid level difficulty but it is constant in this said map.

I think this pulls off the right kind of end game content that would fit in nicely with Guild Wars 2 and the way the questing works.

kizzle.6827:

I’m not a level 80 yet so I really don’t know what is offered at level 80 at this point. I’m not sure what “The Lost Shores” brought to the table…but…in terms of raiding…why not offer a new super uber leveling map where you will need to have tons of players working together in this map that will still have the same type of dynamic event systems going on?

But, really difficult to pull off similar to a raid but not static and the same thing each time, but yet still in the open world that anyone can go to and isn’t limited to having a group of 20 to enter.

I think this pulls off the right kind of end game content that would fit in nicely with Guild Wars 2 and the way the questing works.

There is a “endgame zone” that people are suppose to go to, kill the risen and take temples. The problem is the place is normally empty since Cursed Shore came along. All people do there is farm two evens, and when they aren’t up they either wait or go do another.

When ArenaNet first started talking about Orr is sounded amazing to me, and I thought “who needs raiding”. Well once I hit 80 and went there I was disappointed. There is more risen than players and no one really works on getting the temples. When we finally went after a temple we failed five times because there wasn’t enough players.

It seems the only endgame right now is going for your legendary and sitting in Lions Arch spamming the map with LFG. There needs to be something bigger.

domxnik.1453:

kizzle.6827:

I’m not a level 80 yet so I really don’t know what is offered at level 80 at this point. I’m not sure what “The Lost Shores” brought to the table…but…in terms of raiding…why not offer a new super uber leveling map where you will need to have tons of players working together in this map that will still have the same type of dynamic event systems going on?

But, really difficult to pull off similar to a raid but not static and the same thing each time, but yet still in the open world that anyone can go to and isn’t limited to having a group of 20 to enter.

I think this pulls off the right kind of end game content that would fit in nicely with Guild Wars 2 and the way the questing works.

There is a “endgame zone” that people are suppose to go to, kill the risen and take temples. The problem is the place is normally empty since Cursed Shore came along. All people do there is farm two evens, and when they aren’t up they either wait or go do another.

When ArenaNet first started talking about Orr is sounded amazing to me, and I thought “who needs raiding”. Well once I hit 80 and went there I was disappointed. There is more risen than players and no one really works on getting the temples. When we finally went after a temple we failed five times because there wasn’t enough players.

It seems the only endgame right now is going for your legendary and sitting in Lions Arch spamming the map with LFG. There needs to be something bigger.

I completely agree, I love the pve sides of MMO’s, prob the reason I played wow for so many years because no matter what anyone says about it, the PVE side of that game is by far the best i’ve seen yet.

Yet I thought GW2 would top that easily, the idea of orr having temples that you constantly have to fight over with large number of players, world bosses that require a group to take down (when infact seem easier then most group events i’ve come across and these are suppose to be big world bosses). The fact that you get exp dungeon and story mode with inside DE’s. The pve side of this game sounded so amazing. When infact it’s been a complete flop and is the reason i play maybe 3 hours a week now because i’ve got nothing to do that i enjoy besides fotm and reading for news on any new content.

Adding a new map to the game with seriously hard mobs would be an idea, but it wouldn’t be as fun as a “raid” just for your guild or friends to do alone without other groups and guilds runing around doing the same as you.

Pve needs some looking at, we need a reason to be in a guild with activites to do (unless you do Tpvp or WvW guilds are really useless). We need content that requires tactics and communication not a 15min speed zerg dungeon that you can do with complete randoms.

Nobody is saying Anet have to release anything within the next few days or few weeks, but some information about any ideas/plans they have for pve content would be great. I just hope they don’t spend all their time adding new fractals to fotm for any new pve content.

I liked the idea of the Guild Hall, too. Have guild achievements and have trophies in your Guild Hall. Ahh, I wish. (:

Completely agree with EliteZ. and domxnik with guild halls because anyone who played GW1 missed having those (comon, be honest). Aside from Tpvp, WvW, or helping with crafting guilds don’t get to do too much together. Adding increased party size would be one step in the right direction but there still needs to be that event designed for a large structured party and not a bunch of strangers grouping up for a temple that has no real cooperation. Even though FoTM continues to be fun for most, PVE needs attention outside of small 5 man dungeons.

Look raids are not boring and a grind unless the designers make them that way. Raids in this ame would be A HUGE draw for people. When i used to raid in other games, it was serious fun and they give you a reason to sign on daily. The sense of accomplishment you get from downing a boss for the first time is like nothing else in MMOs. Seriously i can still remeber the first time i downed a boss in Karazhan from warcraft, completely epic and it brought the entire guild together. You do not have to create a gear grind either. Most people would raid if there was currency and cool looking gear. The gear does not have to be statisticly better. Yes guild wars needs to implement raids because at 80 when you have your full gear set, ITS VERY BORING and everyone i know barly even plays anymore. That bums me out because this is such a great game but it lacks any reason for people to keep playing after maxx level.

I gotta chime in here. I played Wow for about 6 years, mebbe a little more. The one thing that kept bringing me back was Raiding. From my first Kills in Karazhan, my first Raid Drop (that gaudy green dagger from Moroes), the first time the Big Bad Wolf killed me. ( RUN AWAY LITTLE GIRL! ). Later raids Like Ulduar, which is still one of the best raids ever, that had a purpose and a story that brought you through the whole place.

Raids were something challenging, something to work for as a team, that taught you to play your class and fulfill your roll better.

I believe that Anet Could create raids in a way that could work, that would require teamwork, synergy between classes, and a real sesne of achievement and accomplishment in groups larger than 5, while still not being just a mindless Zerg press of bodies.

They would have to offer compelling rewards of course. One of my few problems with GW2 is the randomness of Gear on one hand (Boss Chests) and then the ‘Token Grind’ on the other. And when they do introduce ‘rare’ items, it’s not a 5% drop, or even a 1% Drop, it’s a crazy tiny thing. Cursed Chore has no real appeal, it’s not rewarding. Orr has no Unique Rewards for people to gather in Great numbers to do, save the Karma Exotics. People Will Complain about the ‘Carrot and Stick’ of other games, but this game sometimes feels more Stick and No Carrot. Perhaps have Dungeon Chests have a Chance to Drop Dungeon Specific weapons/armor as well.

I’m kinda going all over the place right now, but my point is, with the right group, and the right design, Raiding can draw players and really ensure people keep coming back and have an investment. Some folks like to play casual, I do too, or PVP, not always my bag, but I also miss Raid nights, and I dont wanna go to Pandaland

when you say raids everyone assumes gear grind, killing same boss every week, raid lockouts, random loot drops that annoy people. so if gw2 adds raids and decides not to copy wow/rift/swtor etc.. how would it be different and why would ppl do it besides gettin together more than 5 guildies to do something together?

Actually, reading this thread, one thing that occurs that might help, and has bugged me since beta:
Would it be possible to allow party sizes of more than 5 in open-world PvE?
I know you don’t have to be in a party to participate in an event, but it would greatly help guild groups coordinating some of the larger world events.
12 would be a good start.

Wretchedscar.4796:

I gotta chime in here. I played Wow for about 6 years, mebbe a little more. The one thing that kept bringing me back was Raiding. From my first Kills in Karazhan, my first Raid Drop (that gaudy green dagger from Moroes), the first time the Big Bad Wolf killed me. ( RUN AWAY LITTLE GIRL! ). Later raids Like Ulduar, which is still one of the best raids ever, that had a purpose and a story that brought you through the whole place.

Raids were something challenging, something to work for as a team, that taught you to play your class and fulfill your roll better.

I believe that Anet Could create raids in a way that could work, that would require teamwork, synergy between classes, and a real sesne of achievement and accomplishment in groups larger than 5, while still not being just a mindless Zerg press of bodies.

They would have to offer compelling rewards of course. One of my few problems with GW2 is the randomness of Gear on one hand (Boss Chests) and then the ‘Token Grind’ on the other. And when they do introduce ‘rare’ items, it’s not a 5% drop, or even a 1% Drop, it’s a crazy tiny thing. Cursed Chore has no real appeal, it’s not rewarding. Orr has no Unique Rewards for people to gather in Great numbers to do, save the Karma Exotics. People Will Complain about the ‘Carrot and Stick’ of other games, but this game sometimes feels more Stick and No Carrot. Perhaps have Dungeon Chests have a Chance to Drop Dungeon Specific weapons/armor as well.

I’m kinda going all over the place right now, but my point is, with the right group, and the right design, Raiding can draw players and really ensure people keep coming back and have an investment. Some folks like to play casual, I do too, or PVP, not always my bag, but I also miss Raid nights, and I dont wanna go to Pandaland

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precursor

Orr temples can drop precurors or other random exotics. Not goin against the topic of discussion, but your statement is wrong. As for offering compelling rewards, they would really, REALLY have to be challenging to the point where only good groups with Voip can do well because good rewards should never be repeatable every so often. Remember raids can be fun, but with more people comes more coordination and more room for error (because some people are just plain kitten). With a higher chance to fail, and then adding great rewards or a higher chance of great rewards would do the trick. It’s the same reason why loot from dragon chests is usually depressing although sometimes, you see a couple people get random exotics. It’s essentially spammable hence why the drop rate for good items is so low.

NinjaEd.3946:

Wretchedscar.4796:

I gotta chime in here. I played Wow for about 6 years, mebbe a little more. The one thing that kept bringing me back was Raiding. From my first Kills in Karazhan, my first Raid Drop (that gaudy green dagger from Moroes), the first time the Big Bad Wolf killed me. ( RUN AWAY LITTLE GIRL! ). Later raids Like Ulduar, which is still one of the best raids ever, that had a purpose and a story that brought you through the whole place.

Raids were something challenging, something to work for as a team, that taught you to play your class and fulfill your roll better.

I believe that Anet Could create raids in a way that could work, that would require teamwork, synergy between classes, and a real sesne of achievement and accomplishment in groups larger than 5, while still not being just a mindless Zerg press of bodies.

They would have to offer compelling rewards of course. One of my few problems with GW2 is the randomness of Gear on one hand (Boss Chests) and then the ‘Token Grind’ on the other. And when they do introduce ‘rare’ items, it’s not a 5% drop, or even a 1% Drop, it’s a crazy tiny thing. Cursed Chore has no real appeal, it’s not rewarding. Orr has no Unique Rewards for people to gather in Great numbers to do, save the Karma Exotics. People Will Complain about the ‘Carrot and Stick’ of other games, but this game sometimes feels more Stick and No Carrot. Perhaps have Dungeon Chests have a Chance to Drop Dungeon Specific weapons/armor as well.

I’m kinda going all over the place right now, but my point is, with the right group, and the right design, Raiding can draw players and really ensure people keep coming back and have an investment. Some folks like to play casual, I do too, or PVP, not always my bag, but I also miss Raid nights, and I dont wanna go to Pandaland

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precursor

Orr temples can drop precurors or other random exotics. Not goin against the topic of discussion, but your statement is wrong. As for offering compelling rewards, they would really, REALLY have to be challenging to the point where only good groups with Voip can do well because good rewards should never be repeatable every so often. Remember raids can be fun, but with more people comes more coordination and more room for error (because some people are just plain kitten). With a higher chance to fail, and then adding great rewards or a higher chance of great rewards would do the trick. It’s the same reason why loot from dragon chests is usually depressing although sometimes, you see a couple people get random exotics. It’s essentially spammable hence why the drop rate for good items is so low.

Yeah with a stupidly low chance to get that precursor drop, besides not everybody wants to get a legendary, I know i certantly don’t – those skins are terrible for the amount of grind you have to do to get them or gold requied if you’re too lazy to farm all the mats.

Good rewards doesn’t mean we want 5 exotics to drop from every boss, could be done in the same way normal dungeons are, each boss/raid gives a certain amount of tokens for that raid, then using those tokens you can trade them in for weapons, armor (not of any higher stats) Furthermore there could be a lockout like wow has so you are unable to just spam it where once you kill atleast one boss in that raid it locks to you so you can’t go back and redo that boss. If that’s not the way anet want to go then there are other ways around it, like the dungeon DR (although alot of people hate it, it does stop people spamming dungeons for the tokens) Another idea is what one WoW uses for it’s raid finder. Once you have killed that boss, you can go back and redo the boss, but you’ll get no loot at all, or maybe you could get afew small things that you would get from anywhere else in the game. That way it wouldn’t matter if you farmed a raid all day or farmed orr all day.

Yeah, I agree with the legendary weapon skins. I have a ranger and the short bow is just ridiculous. I’m a guy.

If they ever do bring in more dungeons or hopefully raids, they better add better looking skins. I want to look awesome.

I hope raids are never implemented in this game. Raids are divisive and exclusive, and are the perfect breeding ground for drama in guilds. I’ve seen raiding (and the elitist attitudes it creates) tear guilds apart, and turn friends against one another, across multiple games.

And when you get down to it, raiding success is all too often due to learning the choreography — “when the boss does X, everyone run to this corner; when the boss does Y, get behind this pillar.” Bleh…

I would FAR rather see more interesting and diverse open world content.

Spiral Architect.6540:

I hope raids are never implemented in this game. Raids are divisive and exclusive, and are the perfect breeding ground for drama in guilds. I’ve seen raiding (and the elitist attitudes it creates) tear guilds apart, and turn friends against one another, across multiple games.

And when you get down to it, raiding success is all too often due to learning the choreography — “when the boss does X, everyone run to this corner; when the boss does Y, get behind this pillar.” Bleh…

I would FAR rather see more interesting and diverse open world content.

That is the whole point of raiding, of dungeons in general. To learn the tatics and come up with the best possible ways of defeating that boss. Why else would they have abilities if you wasn’t suppose to come up with a way to get around those abilities that are just too powerful to soak up.

As for breaking up guilds and being too exclusive i completely disagree. This game is not other games, almost every lvl 80 i’d like to think has full exotics (as they’re so easy to obtain) and therefore nobody is in a posisiton where they can not physically do the raids, unless they don’t have enough skill, but then that’s their fault not the games. I could say paid tournaments in SPvP are rubbish because I’m no good at pvp and therefore it should not be placed in the game as I can’t win them. You can’t not put something in the game because 100% of the community may not have the skills required to complete it. I see loads of people moaning JP’s are too hard for them, doesn’t mean anet should take them out of the game beacuse they’re too “exclusive”

As for the guilds, i think it’s completely the oppisite. In the 6 years or so I played WoW i only ever had 3 guilds. From the time i got about lvl 50ish to the point wrath was released i was in a single guild – a raiding guild. When the guild fell the guild was such good friends we actually rebuilt the guild for those of us that still wanted it. I’ve never seen a guild fall apart because of “raid drama” so i’m sorry but i don’t think that’ll be a real issue here as it’ll actually give pve guilds a meaning.

Onto your final point about world content, It’ll never be up to standards. World content has to be created in order for anyone in the game to come along and be able to do it (hence why orr is such a zerg fest) you can’t have challenging world events as it will force people to stay out of certain areas even if all they want to do is explore it. As for instanced “raids”, only those that WANT to and ENJOY raiding will want to enter the instance and therefore anet can make it suit those players instead of the playerbase in general

I will admit I have not read this entire thread, so I don’t know for sure if this idea was raised or not. The topic of Raiding in GW2 came up over the holidays while listening to various podcasts. There appears to be some interest in this, but as we know the game was not designed with this in mind as it charts its own course through MMO waters.

That said, the thing that perhaps is most lacking in GW2 is a sense of active in-game community. What GW2 has done so very very well is make an MMO that you can solo effectively. You really don’t need to socialize to any significant degree at all to play the entire games content. On one hand this makes GW2 a fantastic option for the casual gamer since no dependencies are needed. However, as an MMO, it is by its nature a hub of human activity and as humans we tend to want social interaction at some point in our experiences. Allowing the concept of “raids” is one option for bringing larger player groups together in a shared experience.

Indeed, some guilds of players, both large and small, are active organizations who want to experience GW2 content together as much as possible. Having 5-man dungeons/instances are great… for up to 5 people. But there is a yearning by some for larger group involvement and if Arenanet is giving this idea serious consideration than may I make the following suggestion to them:

If a guild/group of people want to participate in a larger than 5-player party experience, in a dungeon/instance, without compromising the integrity of the gaming experience (re: balance) the Dev’s have so carefully created, simply create an option under a guilds ‘Guild Tab’ and, as an upgrade, spending guild influence, allow a guild leader to queue up a 8, 10, 15, 20-man, etc… type, “raid” capability. When it is ready to use and activated, it allows the players to make these larger type groups.

What it also does when activated, and a “raid” group is created and prepares to enter a dungeon/instance, is ups the difficulty of the dungeon with more veterans and champion level mobs, and bosses are harder to take down, soaking more damage and dealing out more too.

What it -does not- do is increase the drop rates or the amount of items dropped for players, since this is not the reason for doing a “raid” event in GW2.

Allowing players to be able to group up in larger groups to share an experience is the primary objective of this method, not the ability to acquire more than normal amounts of loot.

Doing it this way, the Devs don’t need to change their instances or environments, merely increasing their difficulty, with larger, tougher mobs and bosses.

It is (to my naive mind) a simple solution for the desire by some players for having larger than 5-man player groups, while reducing the potential for abuse (re: farming).

Best regards,
Khaladhen

khaladhen.9480:

What it also does when activated, and a “raid” group is created and prepares to enter a dungeon/instance, is ups the difficulty of the dungeon with more veterans and champion level mobs, and bosses are harder to take down, soaking more damage and dealing out more too.

But this is not how we want raids. The game is a zerg with mobs with stupid amounts of health that take 5-10 mins to take down a single one. Nor do we want mobs that just 1 shot you if you don’t move out of a red circle.
We want a challenge, not a test to see if you can zerg a boss down before he kills you. This is NOT fun. We want tatics that require group communication, tactics where certain things need to be done in order to kill the boss (such as FoTM but it needs to be taken even further) and if it’s not done on time or at all, then you wipe and have to try again. We want encounters where you will have to actually play together as a group to over come the instance because at the moment dungeons consist of 5 players that never have to talk to each other and just do as much damage as they can to finish the dungeon in the quickest possible way.

But i agree, anet don’t need to release new gear with new stats and i don’t think they’d do that again after the reaction of ascended gear. But we would like some rewards that stand out to say “Hey look we finally managed to finish that raid and look at this new sexy weapon skin i got from it”

EliteZ.1682:

But we would like some rewards that stand out to say “Hey look we finally managed to finish that raid and look at this new sexy weapon skin i got from it”

This, this and this!

I agree with the posters asking for just plain harder and better meta event bosses.

We can forgive the current world bosses to a point. I was sad when they nerfed the reactor elemental as that was a really fun and challenging fight, however it was also in a 1-15 zone. Thinking of cursed shore as “welcome to endgame content” also necessarily indicates that the current world bosses are okay being kinda lame as, honestly, they’re interim levelling content (with the exception of the claw)

Rather than raids, I’d like to see bigger and more difficult meta-chains and bosses for those chains in new zones. Think about an Orr without waypoints, where getting to and downing the boss really did take mass pushes on multiple fronts. Imagine the events were hard and rewarding, and imagine the bosses had complex mechanics.

Orr has a start on this idea, but the events are too small in scope, in in many cases the bosses are too easy for the sake of accessibility.

A “New Orr” with a really tough meta and fittingly tough rewards would be the kick in the pants the PvE endgame needs.

That’s where I’d like to see “raid” content exist in GW2. Something that you absolutely need large groups of players to cooperate to accomplish, but also something that exists in the dynamic world. Something that you round up the whole crew for, but not something limited to just your crew.

This is what I want after beating a boss.

I still don’t see meta events, Orr or even a new zone like Orr being harder since everyone and anyone can just walk in and do them. I’m asking for harder and larger content for groups, like dungeons but bigger.

domxnik

I remember that feeling. Never was in a world first raid team, but server first, yes. It’s awesome. And I think ANet could implement raiding in their own unique way.

The problem with just adding more Meta event chains in place of raiding is; It is almost impossible to get any cohesion among the group’s of people actually fighting the boss. Secondly because its an open world fight the mechanics of the larger boss’s will have to be dumbed down because by adding thing such as movement and certain boss effects/mechanics will cause the game to lag (Looking at you Karka event). Lastly, Because their is a scaling limit for event’s in the game boss’s can easily be encumbered by players standing in a single position spamming the 1 skill. Which means the boss dies in like 2 to 5 minutes which isnt fun. And for all the people who think Arenanet would not implement “Raids” or think they will make a “Gear-Treadmill” to accompany it; Think about Urgoz Warren and The Deep, both were 12-man instanced area’s with a large boss and weapon sets.

I think it would be nice to see ANet’s take on raids, or ‘larger player cap dungeons’, for those who don’t want to hear raid.

I think it would be tight. Anything more to do is better. Less just makes you look elsewhere. Whoever argues that simple fact is just selling arenanet short. Personally, I don’t think it would be too pretty tho. The AI is horrid, I feel the aggro system makes the boss ping ponging off of multiple people so quickly makes it look like it has 0 AI. Everything always seems to turn into a cluster-kitten anyway.

Many people seem to have the idea that comon “raids” would mean some dull drawn out instance that leads to gear progession. Guild wars 2 is not about giving the best stats to an exclusive few who have the time to put out for such things. As of legendaries not being cool enough, that is entirely an opinion (although idc for the shortbow tbh). But thats why they have announced that they will release more legendaries and work on the current existing legendaries. Remember Legendaries are purely cosmetic. For raid rewards, just like any other dungeon, it would offer some exclusive skin that people either want or they don’t want. The whole idea behind raids for GW2 would be something for guilds to do together in PVE since there isn’t much currently. It would be nice to merge all “raid” discussions into one post so more can be contributed as it seems these posts usualy fall off after a couple weeks for some reason…

Back to the top. (:

xCrusadentx.2784:

If you’re on the side that views fractals and dungeons as grind, then you should see why raids aren’t popular; we don’t need any more grind then we already have to deal with.

Here’s the thing, the gear from a raid wouldn’t be any different statwise than you would get from a fractal. Hell, it could just be dungeon sets, leaving the “best” gear in fractals.

Honestly, it’s about the challenge and the content, not the grind. Every person I’ve seen in here who hate the idea of raiding in GW2 have quoted “grind” as the main issue. Well, I’m certain we don’t have to have it that way. Content driven dungeons are completely viable for this game.

My guild would make GW2 their main game if we could raid in it. As it stands right now, there’s just nothing to do for a PVE guild to do as a guild. It’s really sad that GW2 is largely incomplete by missing out on this opportunity to be a top-end game that attracts MMO players of all types, encourages a positive change to the genre and builds a community.

robocafaz.9017:

I’m sorry, I really don’t think GW2 would benefit from any sort of structured raid. What it does need is more end-game areas with large boss events with better rewards (and bigger repercussions for not running back when you die.)

I think the Temple of Grenth is a good example of a boss fight with interesting mechanics that will wipe the entire zerg if people don’t pay attention to them. But the boss himself is too much of a spank.

I think the Gates of Arah is a good example of a boss fight that’ll wreck your face off (like in that one movie with Nicholas Cage and John Travolta) if people aren’t paying attention to him, but he lacks interesting other mechanics.

I was excited about the big meta events. And I still think they’re great! They provide a lot of fun for you and a group of friends or just show up with the rest of the random mob of players.

But, this is something I would do in the meantime between farming mats and raiding in other games. For example, these are akin to zone events in Rift. You would do zone events because they were fun and got some currency out of it to help itemize your gear. But mostly because they were something to do.

Zone events in Rift and Dynamic Events in Guild Wars 2 simply doesn’t replace raiding for an end-game raider. It’s about working with your guild to conquer challenging content. Needing to work as a group. Knowing what your specific role is in the group and executing that role with precision and skill. You simply do not get that in an open world event like this.

Open World events have their place, and should be made harder and provide better rewards, sure. But a replacement for raiding? I don’t think so.

I’ve said this over and over again. Raiding doesn’t need to be for everyone. Just like world exploration isn’t for everyone, or crafting, or PVP. Raiding does target a specific set of players. We’re not the majority, but we do push the content and challenge developers to better the game by providing deeper depth to their content and mechanics.

Raiding content needs to be optional and non-intrusive on the rest of the game, much like PVP. I’d be completely fine if Raiding worked exactly like PVP where everything done in Raids has zero effect on world PVE. So long as we got to see challenging large group content.

Guild Wars 2 has nothing for guilds to do outside of WvW. Which is sad, because the guild system in this game has a lot of potential that has just gone to waste. Considering the name, I fully expected being in a top tier guild would mean something in the end. Ends up, if you’re not PVP or just a guild with a mass of warm bodies moving in and out of it, it’s not worth it.

There’s no "gel" that sticks a guild together. No challenge to overcome that creates that lasting bond between yourself and your guildmates. Some of my best friends and business partners I met through raiding in other games. We bonded over the success of our guild in challenging content.

The content alone is one thing this game really lacks outside of zergs or 5 man groups. That content is what brings people together. Without it, the game is missing a critical piece to the MMO puzzle.

To have a successful MMO, you need:

1. Compelling "Leveling" process. This doesn’t have to mean levels, but the process of gaining in strength over time needs to keep players interested. Guild Wars 2 has this.

2. You need to have PVP that offers players a challenge against other players and rewards skill and strategy. Again, Guild Wars 2 has this.

3. You must have fun meta-game events. Things to do in the meantime between content. Keg-Brawl, holiday events, Dynamic Events, etc. Things that allow smaller groups to do on the fly without much effort that offer time-killers outside of normal content. Guild Wars does this well.

4. Challenging content to do with close friends or meet new people. Most games have this in the way of Dungeons. You and 3-4 other players get together to challenge these dungeons and get some kind of reward for doing so. Again, GW2 does this well enough. While I think the reward vs. challenge is off a bit, mostly due to one-shot mechanics, this game does have it and it does offer some hard challenges.

5. Crafting system that keeps people interested. Not much to say on this, but Guild Wars Excels in this area too.

6. Collection and Exploration. Lots of areas to discover and collect item from.

7. Last but not least, content that brings a guild together. A reason for guilds to work together. It’s the reason why many people play an MMO. The social aspect of it, and nothing does this like group content that requires communication, coordination and precise execution with your guild. Sadly, this just doesn’t exist in this game. There’s nothing beyond 5 players in PVE that isn’t solved simply by throwing more bodies at the events. Even if they were designed to be done in a way that required some kind of skill, more bodies just makes it a lol-fest. If you die, you’ll get rezzed. If you see someone die, you rez them. No big.

Seriously though, this game is missing a major element of what makes entire guilds move to a game.

Guilds who challenge content will challenge developers to design better events and better dungeons with more interesting mechanics and mechanics that are challenging, not because they’re going to kill out outright, but because they’re hard to do right. They will challenge the developers to ensure that abilities are tuned and fixed for PVE.

No one challenges the developers more than PVE Raid guilds and PVP guilds. The process of eeking out every drop of performance from your toon demands that abilities are balanced and functional. This benefits everyone.

Raids don’t have to be about the grind. We just want ArenaNet’s version of it. Weapon Skins, tokens, etc are fine.