Guild Wars 2

With the most recent balance patch still so new controversy is to be expected, and I try to ignore most of it. However as an occasional thief player I’ve noticed one thing for sure; nobody likes torment. Some players of other professions have tried to hold it over thief player’s heads as an undeserved addition, but the fact is that most thief players don’t want it. They have zero interest in the condition, and have even begun claiming that changing Skale Venom to apply torment instead of weakness was a nerf.

Conversely I’ve seen numerous engineer players expressing interest in the condition, so wouldn’t it make more sense to give it to someone who actually wants it and will actually use it? After all once player preference is taken into account there is really only one profession that uses torment; the necromancer.

As such I feel it would be worthwhile to give torment to engineers. Specifically to their Elixir Gun kit. With recent changes making kits more desirable across the board, and the Elixir Gun itself having the first stun breaker applied to kits, I expect we’ll see even more condition/support engineers like myself running around with at least the elixir gun on their bar. As such I feel like replacing the poison applied by Fumigate with torment would make for an interesting change. Not only would engineers actually use it, but would be more willing to create condition damage builds wherein it would actually be viable. Furthermore Fumigate’s AoE function, combined with its rapid damage ticks and low cooldown, would make torment more prevalent on the battlefield, thus making it have a noteworthy impact on combat and feel like a true addition, rather than just a tacked on extra nobody asked for and fewer will actually use.

ElixirGun’s PoisonBreath …

The poison is meant to reduce the targets heal. Better than Torment. And giving close range skills “Torment” is a bad design as well. If you’re close range, other melee characters don’t need to run towards you. If the other one is range, it doesn’t need to move anyways.

But the other point of Fumigate is the condition removal. It’s one of the game’s strongest ally-condition-removal, not a damage skill.

Arkham Creed.7358:

With the most recent balance patch still so new controversy is to be expected, and I try to ignore most of it. However as an occasional thief player I’ve noticed one thing for sure; nobody likes torment. Some players of other professions have tried to hold it over thief player’s heads as an undeserved addition, but the fact is that most thief players don’t want it. They have zero interest in the condition, and have even begun claiming that changing Skale Venom to apply torment instead of weakness was a nerf.

Conversely I’ve seen numerous engineer players expressing interest in the condition, so wouldn’t it make more sense to give it to someone who actually wants it and will actually use it? After all once player preference is taken into account there is really only one profession that uses torment; the necromancer.

As such I feel it would be worthwhile to give torment to engineers. Specifically to their Elixir Gun kit. With recent changes making kits more desirable across the board, and the Elixir Gun itself having the first stun breaker applied to kits, I expect we’ll see even more condition/support engineers like myself running around with at least the elixir gun on their bar. As such I feel like replacing the poison applied by Fumigate with torment would make for an interesting change. Not only would engineers actually use it, but would be more willing to create condition damage builds wherein it would actually be viable. Furthermore Fumigate’s AoE function, combined with its rapid damage ticks and low cooldown, would make torment more prevalent on the battlefield, thus making it have a noteworthy impact on combat and feel like a true addition, rather than just a tacked on extra nobody asked for and fewer will actually use.

You clearly haven’t crunched the numbers on torment, and thieves get free weakness on auto attack if you use dagger main hand and the 15pt Deadly Arts trait. Torment is a HUGE boost to a condition dmg thief’s dps. Just because it doesn’t help zerker’s doesn’t mean it was a nerf.

Oberon Vex.1389:

Arkham Creed.7358:

With the most recent balance patch still so new controversy is to be expected, and I try to ignore most of it. However as an occasional thief player I’ve noticed one thing for sure; nobody likes torment. Some players of other professions have tried to hold it over thief player’s heads as an undeserved addition, but the fact is that most thief players don’t want it. They have zero interest in the condition, and have even begun claiming that changing Skale Venom to apply torment instead of weakness was a nerf.

Conversely I’ve seen numerous engineer players expressing interest in the condition, so wouldn’t it make more sense to give it to someone who actually wants it and will actually use it? After all once player preference is taken into account there is really only one profession that uses torment; the necromancer.

As such I feel it would be worthwhile to give torment to engineers. Specifically to their Elixir Gun kit. With recent changes making kits more desirable across the board, and the Elixir Gun itself having the first stun breaker applied to kits, I expect we’ll see even more condition/support engineers like myself running around with at least the elixir gun on their bar. As such I feel like replacing the poison applied by Fumigate with torment would make for an interesting change. Not only would engineers actually use it, but would be more willing to create condition damage builds wherein it would actually be viable. Furthermore Fumigate’s AoE function, combined with its rapid damage ticks and low cooldown, would make torment more prevalent on the battlefield, thus making it have a noteworthy impact on combat and feel like a true addition, rather than just a tacked on extra nobody asked for and fewer will actually use.

You clearly haven’t crunched the numbers on torment, and thieves get free weakness on auto attack if you use dagger main hand and the 15pt Deadly Arts trait. Torment is a HUGE boost to a condition dmg thief’s dps. Just because it doesn’t help zerker’s doesn’t mean it was a nerf.

You’re overlooking the fact that even with this buff a condition thief’s DPS is still about half that of a zerker, and twice as hard to pull off.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Conversely I’ve seen numerous engineer players expressing interest in the condition, so wouldn’t it make more sense to give it to someone who actually wants it and will actually use it? After all once player preference is taken into account there is really only one profession that uses torment; the necromancer.

As a Mesmer, I love it.
Scepter Skill 2
for those who don’t know

As a Mesmer, I hate it.
Scepter Skill 2
for those who don’tknow it, it only inflicts torment on close range. And there, targets won’t follow you. Especially with a weapon which deals more damage in close range.

Nretep.2564:

As a Mesmer, I hate it.
Scepter Skill 2
for those who don’tknow it, it only inflicts torment on close range. And there, targets won’t follow you. Especially with a weapon which deals more damage in close range.

uhhh i think you have that backwards. Close range targets are generally melee, and if u kite via blink or a stealth, they kinda HAVE to follow you or else let you pummel them from a distance. However you are correct that it does have limited effective vs ranged enemies.

Arkham Creed.7358:

You’re overlooking the fact that even with this buff a condition thief’s DPS is still about half that of a zerker, and twice as hard to pull off.

Gonna post a build and explain. First: yes the BURST damage of a zerker thief is insane, dont’ get me wrong, I’ve theorycrafted a spec that will do 18k backstabs to medium/high armor, but its pure glass. The condition spec’s damage is over time but it still does decent DPS.

This is the condition build I am going to use to explain:

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|a.1m.h9.8.1m.h1h|8.1b.h1h.8.1b.h5|1b.716.1b.716.1b.716.1b.716.1b.716.1b.719|4x.d18.2x.d12.3x.d18.2x.d12.3x.d18.2w.d12|u48c.0.u34b.0.a3|30.d|57.5s.5k.5b.5u|e

Yes this site is not current with the newest patch, but the mechanics of the site are still viable when it comes to stat tracking. The only thing you have to do to this build is manually add in the 250 condition damage that isn’t represented by the corruption sigil. This build uses shadow trap, venemous strength and sigils of battle to get 15stax of might for your opening and maintaining 3-5stax while shadow trap is on cd. With full corruption stax and your 15stax of might (that the THIEF gives HIMSELF, no allies) you have 2232 condition damage.

With 2232 condition damage torment does the following: (0.11)x(2232)+32 = 277dps/stack. This is doubled when the enemy is moving to 555dps/stack. With the trait to increase venom strikes (residual venoms, Deadly Arts XII) you get four strikes of your Skale venom, which because of this builds condition duration, last 10s. (555)*(4stax) = 2220dps. This is JUST from venom and so long as the foe is moving, it does 1110dps if they stay still. This is JUST from skale venom. With the condition duration provided by this build torment lasts 10s (5s base +100%). If you calculate the full damage provided (2220)x(10s) you reach a maximum value of 22 200 damage over 10s from Skale Venom; obviously if they don’t move you will only deal 11 100 damage over 10s. Again this is JUST from skale venom.

With 2232 condition damage bleeding does (0.05)x(2232)+42.5=154dps/stack. Opening with sneak attack (pistol stealth skill) places 5stax of bleeding on the target (this is also where you apply the torment). DPS from bleeding is (154)x5=770. Sneak attack’s bleed lasts 4s base, this is doubled to 8s. (770)x(8s)=6164 damage over 8s.

However you can swap to your dagger set and apply more bleeds and a poison via deathblossom and auto attacks. Deathblossom adds another 3stax (154)x(8)=1232dps. Over the bleeds duration (I will only count the 8s of the sneak attack bleed, although the deathblossom bleed will stick around for 20s) you deal (1232)x(8s)=9856 damage over 8s.

Poison at 2232 condition damage deals (0.1)x(2232)+84=307dps

To find our overall, BEST CASE dps:

307dps from poison
1232dps from bleeding
2220dps from torment

= 3759 damage per second

Thats JUST from conditions, though your direct damage would be fairly weak. Yes this is best case scenario in SOLO play, but remember since I’m using Giver weapons and condition duration food/runes that your condition damage can actually be higher! I’m using this set up as condition duration gives more damage overall, just more slowly. This build is also pretty kitten good at surviving with 2880 armor and 14.5k hp on top of the normal stealth bullkitten that thieves get up to.

I don’t know about you but I think 2220dps FROM ONE SKILL on a a THIRTY SIX second cooldown (venom recharge trait) is FREAKING BROKEN

Oberon Vex.1389:

Nretep.2564:

As a Mesmer, I hate it.
Scepter Skill 2
for those who don’tknow it, it only inflicts torment on close range. And there, targets won’t follow you. Especially with a weapon which deals more damage in close range.

uhhh i think you have that backwards. Close range targets are generally melee, and if u kite via blink or a stealth, they kinda HAVE to follow you or else let you pummel them from a distance. However you are correct that it does have limited effective vs ranged enemies.

You didn’t understand it completely. Torment is useless when inflicted melee range. That means you have to go melee range, inflict it and then run away again. Why not making it ranged to begin with.
And making you force to use a 30s CD skill after a 12s one, is a bad design as well.

But well, well. I tested it again, and the Torment after blocking isn’t (AoE) melee range at all. So even when attacked by range, it’ll still inflict the blocked attack’s owner.
Does it change what I said earlier ?
No

You activate your block, a ranged guy attacks and inflicted with torment. Well, he’s ranged, he won’t have to move.
You activate your block, a melee guy attacks and inflicted with torment. Well, he already hit you in melee, so he doesn’t need to chase you anymore.
Designing it as melee skill or as block skill is pointless the way it is. Especially in PvE where ranged mobs won’t try to move/ dodge. In PvP, you can assume that ranged fighters won’t stand still and attack you.

So in PvE, I’d prefer an anti-torment in Scepters block. Deal double damage if the target does NOT move.

[ Edit ]
I forgot … ANet thinks this is a PvP game …

Nretep.2564:

Oberon Vex.1389:

Nretep.2564:

As a Mesmer, I hate it.
Scepter Skill 2
for those who don’tknow it, it only inflicts torment on close range. And there, targets won’t follow you. Especially with a weapon which deals more damage in close range.

uhhh i think you have that backwards. Close range targets are generally melee, and if u kite via blink or a stealth, they kinda HAVE to follow you or else let you pummel them from a distance. However you are correct that it does have limited effective vs ranged enemies.

You didn’t understand it completely. Torment is useless when inflicted melee range. That means you have to go melee range, inflict it and then run away again. Why not making it ranged to begin with.
And making you force to use a 30s CD skill after a 12s one, is a bad design as well.

But well, well. I tested it again, and the Torment after blocking isn’t (AoE) melee range at all. So even when attacked by range, it’ll still inflict the blocked attack’s owner.
Does it change what I said earlier ?
No

You activate your block, a ranged guy attacks and inflicted with torment. Well, he’s ranged, he won’t have to move.
You activate your block, a melee guy attacks and inflicted with torment. Well, he already hit you in melee, so he doesn’t need to chase you anymore.
Designing it as melee skill or as block skill is pointless the way it is. Especially in PvE where ranged mobs won’t try to move/ dodge. In PvP, you can assume that ranged fighters won’t stand still and attack you.

So in PvE, I’d prefer an anti-torment in Scepters block. Deal double damage if the target does NOT move.

[ Edit ]
I forgot … ANet thinks this is a PvP game …

I think you just dislike scepter two in general. Its a block, and now it provides much more damage. Your statement that melee attackers don’t need to follow you is completely ridiculous unless you assume that you (the player inflicting torment) is just gonna stand there and let a melee opponent wail on you. You don’t HAVE to burn blink, but chances are you would to get out of range again and force them to chase you, thats not bad design, thats using a skill for what it is designed FOR. Torment works well in PvE EXCEPT against ranged mobs, and the vast majority of mobs in the game are melee based, so its pretty good for leveling; even vs ranged mobs they still take more damage than they would from an equal amount of bleed stax (which mesmers don’t have reliable access to) WHILE STANDING STILL.

Part of the issue is you are using a reactive skill as a proactive one. Running up to a melee foe to use your block is a terrible choice. Instead just use it to block when you can’t avoid being hit, and it increases your damage and prevents you from being damaged.

Pretty much EVERY player is constantly moving in PvP, if you aren’t you are probably going to be spiked or focused.

Even in PvE, this is just more damage on a weaponset that is already geared towards condition damage, you aren’t losing anything from using it, it just an added perk over your normal damage.

Unless I’m bugged, it works with projectiles as well lol
Managed to inflict it on a user who tried to Arrow Cart me
Managed to inflict it on a user who tried to use barrage on me