Guild Wars 2

Hello everyone. GW2 is a good game, but it has a tragic flaw. That tragic flaw is the focus of this post.

GW2 devs always promote the main philosophy for the game experience as a community of players who cooperate, help and support each other as friends. That is all great.

Yet at the same time, the game includes an extremely toxic feature that is antithetical to that philosophy, a feature that can and does (at least in some cases) make the player’s actual experience become the opposite of that philosophy. This feature pits abusive players against innocent players – as enemies – and gives all the power to the abusive players. Yes, I am talking about the vote kick feature.

The vote kick feature gives any two players the power to kick anyone else from their party, at any time. No reason is required for any player to be kicked. Abusive players are given free reign to ruin the experience of any other player just because they feel like it.

From the perspective of a vote kick abuser, typical motivations which result in an innocent player getting kicked might include: the innocent is using a weapon, skill, or armor set that the abusers do not like, or the innocent is fighting or retreating in places where the abusers do not want him or her to, or the innocent is not killing mobs as fast as the abusers think he or she should be.

When an innocent player gets kicked out of a party, he or she loses all the time spent making the party (if the maker of the party is the one who is the victim of vote kick abuse), waiting for the party to be able to enter the dungeon (entrance events need to be done, etc.), and progressing through the dungeon. In addition, the victim of vote kick abuse also loses out on the rewards of the dungeon that he or she should be entitled to receive based on the work that he or she did prior to being victimized. Needless to say, the innocent player is robbed and therefore is left feeling terrible.

What I have just said is not theoretical. I have personally seen abuses such as this occur two nights in a row.

Meanwhile, after the innocent victim gets kicked, the abusive players – who have completely ruined the experience of other players – will go on to reap all the dungeon rewards, because they can simply replace their victims by inviting new players into the party.

While the innocent player is feeling terrible after being cheated, the abusive players have no reason to feel anything but delight, because as far the game knows, they have done nothing wrong, and they will never be held to account for their toxic behaviors.

To add insult to injury, the game does not even tell the innocent player which players abused him or her. In other words, abusive vote kickers remain anonymous, free to continue their reign of terror against and potentially make additional victims out of all other players they ever meet.

Even if the abusive players were not anonymous to their victims, they would probably get off scot-free anyway, because the reasons to submit a report in-game do not give the victim of vote kick abuse an option to report for that reason.

What ever benefit including a vote kick feature might have in being potentially useful on an very rare basis is far outweighed by the extreme toxicity that its presence causes far more often on a regular basis.

In order to take away from abusive players the power to create a toxic environment – and to be rewarded for it too – and to stop innocent players from becoming the victims of toxic players, I ask Anet to please to remove the vote kick feature from the game.

If Anet will not, I ask if they will please at least drastically alter how the vote kick feature works.

If vote kick stays in the game, it should require a minimum of four votes to go through. The in-game names of the people who vote to kick another player should be made known to the player who is kicked. The player who is kicked should have the ability to report everyone who voted to kick him or her, unless they had a legitimate reason (like AFKing) to do so. And Anet should post an in-game message every time a vote kick is about to be started, a message that says that abuse of the vote kick feature may result in account bans.

If the vote kick feature remains in the game and unchanged, then GW2 will never be a game about cooperation and friendship between players. Rather, it will remain a game that empowers toxic players viciously to grief innocent players with impunity.

Thank you to everyone who has read my post.

I agree with almost everything you said. My only problem is that I feel it should be a three players to vote kick someone.

I’ve always felt that a minority vote for a kick was ridiculous. I support at least bumping the requirement for kicking someone from a group of five to requiring three people to vote the target off.

I read your post, all of it, but i disagree in getting rid of the feature. The other night i had the displeasure of doing a dungeon pug with a person who i had the misfortune of grping with before. This guy thought it was ok to just stand in the hallway while the rest of the grp took on mini bosses and cleared trash mobs. He did it the first time i grped with him and started to do the exact same thing.

Now if we did not have the vote kick option, the grp would basically be down 1 man for the entire dungeon, at least by kicking the offensive player the toxic environment he was creating can be remedied.

I feel the only thing Anet needs to do is making vote kicking majority rules, so instead of the minority (2) the vote needs the majority (3 or 4).

It’s common sense it should be a majority vote..3/5…Another thing that should be implemented before aoe nerfs….

While I totally agree with you about players abusing the feature, just remember those kinds of lowlifes will find any way they can to abuse you, taking this out of the game won’t remedy that. I do however believe a 3 vote is needed. I too agree that a minority kick is a bad idea. 3/5 is ideal, hopefully this thread is seen and that is taken into consideration. I do not, however believe the feature should be removed.

Dradiin.8935:

Now if we did not have the vote kick option, the grp would basically be down 1 man for the entire dungeon, at least by kicking the offensive player the toxic environment he was creating can be remedied.

I agree that is a problem, but leaving the vote kick option in the game is not the best solution. The best solution is to allow players to report the leecher in-game for the reason of leeching. Once that option is in place, any player who leeches wouldn’t be around very long, hence the problem would not be widespread.

Raising the vote kick number to 3 would not solve the problem of rampant vote kick abuse. All that would do is decrease the problem slightly.

Having 3 players concur to abuse the vote kick feature together would not be rare. It would still happen – and victimize innocent players – all the time, just like it now does when 2 players do it.

Maybe raising the number of votes needed to 3 and ensuring that the victims have ways to ensure that all abusive vote kickers get reported and punished accordingly would work.

3/5 vote not solve much only takes 3 guildies to kick other 2 at end

Counter point example:

You’re doing a Fractal run, you just beat the second fractal’s boss and everyone grabbed their chest when one player goes afk without clicking ‘ready’.

you wait.. 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes…. with a vote kick system you have a way to move past this impasse, without it, you’re stuck waiting for that player forever or quit out of the run altogether.

That being said, it really should be a 4/5 vote.

Disagree. Raising the required vote to three is debatable, but getting rid of the feature would mean one player can cripple four others by not cooperating.

We -need- a method to remove disruptive party members or absent players, but I would say that I would support boosting the vote count to at least three players instead of just two.

The reason being that if two players bicker in a PUG, one might vote to kick the other, and a player might blindly click the confirm button, not really thinking the decision though.

Two other people (in parties of more than three) should be required to confirm a kick of another player.

Taking the ability away for players to kick other players would seriously hamper the game experience.

At the very least they should change it to 3 players instead of 2. I think if they did that it’d be perfect, I think the game has a system better then most when the group leader decides who stays and goes. In other games WoW for example the group leader can kick all 4 players if he wants to in an instant. Atleast here you need another person to vote for it

But we need it for those players that go AFK for ages, or are abusive and every other reason it was created for.

However, changing it to 3 players would require more work for Anet which maybe they don’t have time for at the moment. The way it is at the moment, if you’re in a group of just 2 people you simply leave the party. If you’re in a group of more then two people, you’re always able to kick the others. On the other hand though, if it’s 3 votes, then what happens if you’re in a group of 3? The third player isn’t going to vote to kick himself and therefore you’d still have the have the old system in play if you only have 3 players and a new system for when you have 4 or 5. Therefore, not only would they have to edit the current system, they’d also have to create a new system to go on top

Why not make it that on a vote kick all other party members have to agree. So group number -1.

If someone is truly being disruptive or a hindrance to the rest of the group then it should also be apparent to everyone else that is active in the group.

Not always, you could have 2 friends in your group that’re just trolling, so if you try to kick them, their friend will click decline and you’d have no way of removing them

I think the feature is fine as well. Majority vote is perhaps more appropriate, but the feature needs to stay.

I think the people that are for removing it altogether are missing the point. the problem is not that these people have the right to kick you, it’s that they are ok with, and sometimes enjoy, abusing other players. Removing this feature won’t change that one bit and they will always find a way to ruin your experience. By upping the required votes it at least allows the honest people in the party a chance to stop them in their tracks. Will you still get parties full of jerks willing to kick you on a whim? Yeah, but I can also guarantee that removing this feature won’t change anything. They will find a way to grief you, because that’s what they do to fill that void in their souls.

Two vote kick is okay, sometimes three is better, kicking past a certain point such at final boss or half point could be a debatable change. What needs added is a ‘Trust’ vote at the beginning of a dungeon that prevents vote kicks on the players, the only way to kick a player at that point is a 3/4/5 minute afk timer kick.

Or they can have it so that you can not kick during combat or after the final boss has been killed so you can’t get kicked before you loot the chest/rewards

Nay of the Ether.8913:

I think the people that are for removing it altogether are missing the point. the problem is not that these people have the right to kick you, it’s that they are ok with, and sometimes enjoy, abusing other players. Removing this feature won’t change that one bit and they will always find a way to ruin your experience. By upping the required votes it at least allows the honest people in the party a chance to stop them in their tracks. Will you still get parties full of jerks willing to kick you on a whim? Yeah, but I can also guarantee that removing this feature won’t change anything. They will find a way to grief you, because that’s what they do to fill that void in their souls.

This.

Also, the kickee doesn’t get a vote. Requiring 2 is 50% in a party of 5, 67% in a party of 4, and 100% in a party of 3. They could make it “over 50%” required, but you’re back in the same position with 3 jerks instead of 2 for a group of 5 and the situation is unchanged in any group smaller than 5. The problem is not that jerks can abuse a system that allows groups to deal with jerks, the problem is people are jerks—and you can’t solve that, all you can do is learn a lesson, take names, and move on.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Suggestion-Add-griefing/first#post1237694

I read most of the OP but I will have to disagree.

Yes, the system is abusable and it’s a shame when you’re a victim of this (and I have been a victim of this a few times myself) but there is no safeguard for playing with jerks. Your best bet is to simply avoid them. Blacklist them, report them, what have you. But making the kick system more cumbersome is just that: cumbersome.

Some instances where you just want to get the job done:
-Party member entered the wrong dungeon mode and now the party is locked in that mode. “Oh, let me just log out and see if that fixes it”. Quickly kicking the player, entering the proper mode and reinviting. Simple, easy and doesn’t require the entire team to coordinate the whole thing.
-Just finished a path and 3 of the guys just decided to do another path. The other 2 ended up logging before that and are still in the party.

Now I PuG for everything and I love running dungeons. What you need to do is:
a. Be a pleasant person. When you are, other people react and may remember you, and run with you again.
b. Friend the nice ones you meet.
c. Blacklist the jerks that caused you or your party grief (or not, depends on how jerky they were)

Yes, you’re going to eventually run into jerks that abuse the system and ruin everything. But hey, the ‘system’ is probably more likely to bug and either get your run stuck/screwed up causing you to have to restart vs some jerk that wants to kick you for fun.

Until it becomes such an epidemic that forces the dev’s hand, I wouldn’t want the system to be more clunky than it already is. Sometimes you just have to work with what you’ve got.

Now I will suggest one thing though: when you’re kicked from a group, the team chat is completely gone. If there’s an option to this, I don’t know of it. But it makes it harder to address these griefers when you can’t remember their exact name because chat is gone. This may be a feature to stop the kickee from harassing the kicker but it also protects the kicker if they are abusing the system. I think this should just go away. If you’re the kicker and the kickee is whispering curses to you, you can do the same and blacklist them/report them if you have to.

In my opinion, this isn’t a technical issue to be solved by tweaking the numbers, it’s a social problem and needs a social solution. For example, make it easier to report a party leader for dropping people — and start suspending people who make it a habit.

I doubt this happens all that often, so I don’t think we should create new rules. And requiring 3 or even 4 votes won’t prevent griefing — it will only reduce it. I think it would be better to focus on the people who do this, rather than impose a rule that makes it harder for the vast majority of players.

There’s a trade off. Right now, my guild does a lot of PvE activities and we form/reform parties all the time. Someone goes afk or logs out, but forgets to drop…I only need one person to “second” so I can remove them from the party and add someone else who wasn’t in the group. Require a majority vote and this is no longer possible.

In dungeons, there is also a legit use. I’ve been three times to Arah/storymode and on two of the occasions, someone /ragequit: once because the person thought the dungeon was bugged (it wasn’t) and the other time because the person wanted to rush without waiting for the rest of us (include 3 who had never been) to catch up. In both cases, most of the team was spending too much time trying to stay alive to notice the /kick request (as it was, it stayed up several minutes).

not only does the feature need to stay, but it needs to be added to WvW parties. It’s bloody annoying having to reform parties to remove 1 offline person because there is no way to get rid of them.

It should be 3/5, but I would not remove it altogether.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I doubt this happens all that often, so I don’t think we should create new rules. And requiring 3 or even 4 votes won’t prevent griefing — it will only reduce it. I think it would be better to focus on the people who do this, rather than impose a rule that makes it harder for the vast majority of players.

It happens alot. Most people have given up on anyone doing anything about it and dont report it. Spend a few hours on the forums searching, you’ll find lots of these kind of posts.

They should just make party leader valid. Party leader is marked (so it is obvious). They cannot be kicked from vote features and can kick anyone else without a vote. It is simple, and those who try to abuse it get known pretty quickly and ostrasized from most any other MMO community.

point to ponder: as LONG as you pug, you are at the mercy of the random folk YOU ACCEPTED being matched up with. as countless people have pointed out, if people wanna be abusive? they’re going to be abusive. remove this feature? they’ll become the ones who stand in hallyways, afk, twiddle their thumbs … whatever they can to be abusive.

truth is, “rules” whether written, exhorted, programmed in — what-have-you — CAN not replace courtesy, common sense, and gamesmanship. no matter WHAT you try to do to mandate others’ behavior, those who choose to do so WILL find loopholes. they WILL take advantage of those loopholes. they will, in short, make life miserable, and laugh about it, for as many folk as they can.

when you choose to pug, you accept this risk, knowing that the developers’ hands are tied past certain reasonable limits. one of those reasonable limits would be a majority vote requirement; not really hard to program, simply changing a rule/condition. but don’t hold the company/developer responsible for mandating player behavior. if you pug on your server? make note of the idiots. share that information around. if you pug on overflow? * shudders * i can’t even imagine it.