Guild Wars 2

Suggestion: give us some sort of Trinity – Lite.

After playing through to level 50 I have to say I miss the Trinity. No I don’t miss the long waits for groups and such but I do miss the structure in the form of designated roles.

I’m having fun right now, but the play gets a bit monotonous in dungeons. The rule seems to be kill, die, kill, die, kill, die, kill, die and ultimately win by attrition.

I miss the heroics of a tank coming in to protect the group or a healer getting the tank back up or the DPS burning the mob down at the right time and then support/utility backing the whole process up.

It just seems a bit too one-sided toward ranged. I play a Ranger btw. I wanted to roll a guardian but don’t want to experience frustration.

If guardians could have a bit more HP and some aggro generation would that be such a bad thing?

Thoughts?

The game already has a “trinity lite” of sorts, through what Anet calls support, damage, and control.

Damage is pretty much the same as dps, whether that’s burst or sustained, through physical damage or condition damage. These are usually glass cannon builds, investing in power and precision (dependent on the skills/traits you use) as well as condition damage, condition duration, and critical damage.

Support is similar to a healer, except not nearly as heal-heavy. You can drop some AoE heals here and there, but not on the same level as the self-heal. Supporters usually support through granting boons to their allies, or removing conditions, rezzing, and reflecting damage as the situation calls for it. Attributes to invest: healing power and boon duration.

Control is somewhat similar to a tank, you have some damage mitigation skills, but for the most part your controlling the enemy through cc and conditions. Attributes to invest: condition duration, toughness, vitality.

All classes can spec for these roles, but again, it is a “lite” version of the holy trinity; you are still very much hybrid in what you do. For example, your primary role as support will be supporting your teammates, but in the interim you need to be doing damage and cc-ing as the situation calls for it.

These three roles are much more clearly defined in sPVP, and it’s very obvious a “trinity lite” exists if you pay attention to competitive matches. For PvE, time will tell whether pugs will figure out GW2’s new system.

My issue is that even “support” builds are dps first, second, and third, with suppot tacked on as a distant fourth. I’ve been toying around with builds trying to find a way around this, but I haven’t had much luck. This isn’t a problem, per se, but something I did not anticipate and I don’t particularly enjoy it. I respect ANet for sticking to their vision and I’m trying to find a way to really enjoy it. I’m currently playing around with high mobility stealth resurection builds for wvw.

What is the “frustration” with guardian?

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

A common mistake that I’ve seen people make with guardians is assuming that they should be taking damage for other people. In my experiences, absorbing damage with your hit points is about the worst way to play defensively (second only to trying to heal people who are doing this).

For guardian, make sure to give consideration to the abilities that proactively mitigate, prevent, or better yet, reflect damage. These are harder to get right because they require more precise timing. But it feels really great when you plop down that wall of reflection, and return that blast of whatever for thousands of damage to the thing that threw it at you.

You think that’s hard, try reflecting things with the Engineer’s Flamethrower’s Airblast ability…

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

A common mistake that I’ve seen people make with guardians is assuming that they should be taking damage for other people. In my experiences, absorbing damage with your hit points is about the worst way to play defensively (second only to trying to heal people who are doing this).

For guardian, make sure to give consideration to the abilities that proactively mitigate, prevent, or better yet, reflect damage. These are harder to get right because they require more precise timing. But it feels really great when you plop down that wall of reflection, and return that blast of whatever for thousands of damage to the thing that threw it at you.

Thanks for the reply. I agree that HP stacking isn’t the best way to handle an encounter.
And due to the fact that I have not played a Guardian yet, I wasn’t aware of the abilities you mention. I’m very interested giving those a try.

That being said, what about the role of a Guardian as defined by it’s very name? Who is he guarding if not the group? Which brings me back to one of my suggestions above; having just a touch of aggro generation added so that when the group is going down, the guardian can draw aggro and and then plop down the wall of reflection you mentioned thereby allowing the group to recover a bit.

What do you think?

i just pugged a dungeon, as a guardian and was often the last one up, mostly becuase i was actually moving, vs the others i was with who would stand still, until you went to rez them(silly elies misting away)

dungeons have a major learning curve for some, convincing people to not just stand there and take the hit can be hard

ropestar.7645:

The game already has a “trinity lite” of sorts, through what Anet calls support, damage, and control.

Damage is pretty much the same as dps, whether that’s burst or sustained, through physical damage or condition damage. These are usually glass cannon builds, investing in power and precision (dependent on the skills/traits you use) as well as condition damage, condition duration, and critical damage.

Support is similar to a healer, except not nearly as heal-heavy. You can drop some AoE heals here and there, but not on the same level as the self-heal. Supporters usually support through granting boons to their allies, or removing conditions, rezzing, and reflecting damage as the situation calls for it. Attributes to invest: healing power and boon duration.

Control is somewhat similar to a tank, you have some damage mitigation skills, but for the most part your controlling the enemy through cc and conditions. Attributes to invest: condition duration, toughness, vitality.

All classes can spec for these roles, but again, it is a “lite” version of the holy trinity; you are still very much hybrid in what you do. For example, your primary role as support will be supporting your teammates, but in the interim you need to be doing damage and cc-ing as the situation calls for it.

These three roles are much more clearly defined in sPVP, and it’s very obvious a “trinity lite” exists if you pay attention to competitive matches. For PvE, time will tell whether pugs will figure out GW2’s new system.

In writing, what you say sounds great and plays out well in straight PvE.
But in dungeons, it doesn’t work effectively as the mobs are much tougher. This is where have a more Trinity-less-lite than what you describe would work well.

As stated by myself and others, right now dungeons are kill, die kill multiple times until you finally win through attrition. This will get unfun very quickly.

I kinda wish I could run dungeons with you, Anthony. You seem to know what’s up.

Thanks for writing this down Anthony. I’m sick of people calling my Guardian a tank.

As much as I’d love to Leeroy in as my Mesmer (and I do try most times), Temporal Curtains and Blinks and such only work so much especially multiple archers pretty much one shot me and then the prolonged aggro of other mobs tend to do me in as well when all my survival abilities are on CD.

So to be fair it’s not that weird to expect a heavy armoured profession to go in first. That doesn’t mean that they should act like tanks or be thought of as such. Far from it’s just simply their armour type that makes them less squishy and survive longer than a light armoured person (Not by much but some at least).

Edit: I’m speaking in terms of Explorable Dungeons

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

That’s why position is actually important in Guild Wars 2. Most of the guardian’s absorption/reflection abilities are sphere or lines. Wall of Reflection is an actual wall about 10 times the width of your character; plenty of room to protect your party. .

Hard to do on an Australian ping where a dodge roll or skills are .5 of a second behind the server. This game probably has the worst lag, warping in any mmo i have played (Even in pve)

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

Waypoc.6125:

That being said, what about the role of a Guardian as defined by it’s very name? Who is he guarding if not the group? Which brings me back to one of my suggestions above; having just a touch of aggro generation added so that when the group is going down, the guardian can draw aggro and and then plop down the wall of reflection you mentioned thereby allowing the group to recover a bit.

That’s why position is actually important in Guild Wars 2. Most of the guardian’s absorption/reflection abilities are sphere or lines. Wall of Reflection is an actual wall about 10 times the width of your character; plenty of room to protect your party. Then there’s abilities like Virtue of Courage (F3), which is not exactly a sphere of blocking but it applies a free block to every ally within range.

The main idea is that the combat and skills should keep you paying more attention to the game world than the various arbitrary numbers, bars, and meters typically associated with MMORPGs.

Not to mention I can guard my group from the rear or the frontlines; Save Yourselves + activate all of my Virtues + Tome Of Courage = one very confused, very alive party member who was expecting to be Defeated.

I spec my Guardian to mix equal parts control (movement-impairment on enemies, reflect attacks, blinds) and support (heal, condition purifying, Rally-oriented).

It’s even more useful and fluid than Aggro, because in tandem with someone like an Elementalist or an Engineer, I can control the movement of enemies at the limit of the range on my spells; “No, your bullets will not harass my Elementalist!” or “Boss, sit down before you fall down, enjoy my Line of Warding”.

It looks like Aggro because I can predict, counter, or nullify the advantages of the enemies. It’s better than Aggro because I can quickly retreat and get my bearings again and whip out my Staff to buff the group before resuming the CC from my Hammer or Shield-Scepter abilities.

I really wish people would cease making suggestions that directly conflict some of the core mechanics of the game itself. The lack of a reliance on the dreaded trinity is one of the biggest appeals of this game, especially since it rewards those of us who pull their own weight and enjoy engaging combat.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

That’s why position is actually important in Guild Wars 2. Most of the guardian’s absorption/reflection abilities are sphere or lines. Wall of Reflection is an actual wall about 10 times the width of your character; plenty of room to protect your party. Then there’s abilities like Virtue of Courage (F3), which is not exactly a sphere of blocking but it applies a free block to every ally within range.

The main idea is that the combat and skills should keep you paying more attention to the game world than the various arbitrary numbers, bars, and meters typically associated with MMORPGs.

this, wall of reflection and virtue of courage are 2 of my favorite skills. In dungeon explorable mode I can make it so much easier using wall to stop all damage from ranged mobs while they kill themselves, and virtue of courage gives your whole party room for mistakes in positioning, as if you have bad positioning in explore mode, your dead.

for example, in caudecus manor butler route using position and skills like these make it so you dont die a lot. the whole first boss is about positioning and reflection, and the second one too.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

A common mistake that I’ve seen people make with guardians is assuming that they should be taking damage for other people. In my experiences, absorbing damage with your hit points is about the worst way to play defensively (second only to trying to heal people who are doing this).

For guardian, make sure to give consideration to the abilities that proactively mitigate, prevent, or better yet, reflect damage. These are harder to get right because they require more precise timing. But it feels really great when you plop down that wall of reflection, and return that blast of whatever for thousands of damage to the thing that threw it at you.

although you are a developer, I have to disagree with you.
Many of Guardian’s abilites are blocks and shields, or heals.

I run a tank build in dungeons, because mostly my range is limited, and my two hander weapons are too sluggish and short range to be useful to myself as well as my group.

mace 3rd skill is a defensive skill which is useless unless being attacked.
the second skill is a symbol, meaning not mobile, and likely placed were melee teammates are at to protect them. meaning greater chance you will also be hit.

focus’s 5th skill is again a shield. useful when hit. pointless when not.

shield’s 4th and 5th skills nuff said.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

Waypoc.6125:

That being said, what about the role of a Guardian as defined by it’s very name? Who is he guarding if not the group? Which brings me back to one of my suggestions above; having just a touch of aggro generation added so that when the group is going down, the guardian can draw aggro and and then plop down the wall of reflection you mentioned thereby allowing the group to recover a bit.

That’s why position is actually important in Guild Wars 2. Most of the guardian’s absorption/reflection abilities are sphere or lines. Wall of Reflection is an actual wall about 10 times the width of your character; plenty of room to protect your party. Then there’s abilities like Virtue of Courage (F3), which is not exactly a sphere of blocking but it applies a free block to every ally within range.

The main idea is that the combat and skills should keep you paying more attention to the game world than the various arbitrary numbers, bars, and meters typically associated with MMORPGs.

Good intentions on your part, but why then did you make a combat where I can see almost nothing that is happening around me, if I am in melee range? Or are you trying to tell us that GW2 actually favors range over melee?
Roles in a fight are natural, they are part of us, humans. Maybe that is the reason so many players don’t like this “we are all the same” mantra, that GW2 promotes so heavily.
In my opinion not having trinity is more liked by people that see themselves primarily as part of a group, while having some sort of trinity is more liked by those that want more personal satisfactions and accomplishments.

The lack of a Trinity isn’t the problem with dungeons. The health, DPS, and general lack of variety in individual mobs is.

My guild is a carryover from GW1.

GW1:

Mobs move, recharge skills, and apply too much damage too fast for protection and condition control to be particularly effective.

GW1 tactics:

Ranged glass cannons in the backline, players that invested in damage mitigation skills in the frontline, minimal number of healers, follow target calls at all times.

GW2:

Mob numbers, movement speed, and DPS is so great than the immediate need to kill them outweighs any potential utility of non-DPS setups.

GW2 tactics:

Ranged glass cannons in the backline, players that invested into Toughness and/or health in the frontline, follow target calls at all times.

Regarding the Guardian, I really wish that revival signet was useful, I really do, but it doesn’t seem to be a targeted skill and it ALWAYS seems to favor NPCs that love standing in bosses 1-hit-kill clouds of death. I’ve never been able to raise a player when there was a downed NPC anywhere within spirit distance.

symke.3105:

Good intentions on your part, but why then did you make a combat where I can see almost nothing that is happening around me, if I am in melee range? Or are you trying to tell us that GW2 actually favors range over melee?
Roles in a fight are natural, they are part of us, humans. Maybe that is the reason so many players don’t like this “we are all the same” mantra, that GW2 promotes so heavily.
In my opinion not having trinity is more liked by people that see themselves primarily as part of a group, while having some sort of trinity is more liked by those that want more personal satisfactions and accomplishments.

I’d like to see your statistics on the notion that “so many players” dislike the trinity removal. My main problem with what you said is that you claim there are no roles when this has repeatedly been said to not be the case. As far as I know just about every class has a support, damage and control trait line. The only difference is that in GW2 these roles are mobile and proactive rather than stationary and reactive.

And also that you’re not required to take a specific amount of roles into battle with you which, in my opinion, makes those specific roles all the more immersive and worthwhile. In WoW when you play a specific role players expect you to do specific things. I’m sure there’s not a single tank or healer that has played WoW that is unfamiliar with both barks of orders and yells of disappointment. Here you’re not required to take a specific role for any specified reason other than your own prerogative. Here if someone were to actually chose to take up a support or control role in a fight; players are actually more inclined to be grateful for that person’s role rather demanding they perform in a specific way.

But above all; everyone knew from the start that Guild Wars 2’s initiative was to break the Holy Trinity. You bought the game knowing this so don’t expect the developers to rework their concept just because you paid for it. You won’t go walking into a lemonade stall, pay for a glass of lemonade and then demand that they give you orange juice so don’t do the same thing here.

Hellz NO!

Please keep it that way! No need for Trinity…

Achilles.3128:

symke.3105:

Good intentions on your part, but why then did you make a combat where I can see almost nothing that is happening around me, if I am in melee range? Or are you trying to tell us that GW2 actually favors range over melee?
Roles in a fight are natural, they are part of us, humans. Maybe that is the reason so many players don’t like this “we are all the same” mantra, that GW2 promotes so heavily.
In my opinion not having trinity is more liked by people that see themselves primarily as part of a group, while having some sort of trinity is more liked by those that want more personal satisfactions and accomplishments.

I’d like to see your statistics on the notion that “so many players” dislike the trinity removal. My main problem with what you said is that you claim there are no roles when this has repeatedly been said to not be the case. As far as I know just about every class has a support, damage and control trait line. The only difference is that in GW2 these roles are mobile and proactive rather than stationary and reactive.

And also that you’re not required to take a specific amount of roles into battle with you which, in my opinion, makes those specific roles all the more immersive and worthwhile. In WoW when you play a specific role players expect you to do specific things. I’m sure there’s not a single tank or healer that has played WoW that is unfamiliar with both barks of orders and yells of disappointment. Here you’re not required to take a specific role for any specified reason other than your own prerogative. Here if someone were to actually chose to take up a support or control role in a fight; players are actually more inclined to be grateful for that person’s role rather demanding they perform in a specific way.

But above all; everyone knew from the start that Guild Wars 2’s initiative was to break the Holy Trinity. You bought the game knowing this so don’t expect the developers to rework their concept just because you paid for it. You won’t go walking into a lemonade stall, pay for a glass of lemonade and then demand that they give you orange juice so don’t do the same thing here.

I didn’t use words like “most” or “majority” for a reason. Because I don’t know what most players think. No one does. “So many” is simply because the amount of posts about this on several different GW2 forums is high enough to allow this phrase.
And for your to attack my use of this phrase and then use words “everyone knew” at the end of your post is a definite “LoL” moment. I guess you allow yourself more freedom with words than you do to others, ha. Furthermore, only those that were following the development of GW2 knew this “no Trinity” fact. But of course according to you, that means all players of GW2 at the moment. Unbelievable, really.

Roles in GW2 are (imo) blurred and not that well defined, not non existent. It’s also my opinion that with time, you will be expected to use certain weapons and skills for combo effects and similar. Which is not very different than expecting to use certain build.
It’s the samekitten It just smells and looks differently (a joke).

And I am not demanding anything, just expressing my opinion.

symke.3105:

I didn’t use words like “most” or “majority” for a reason. Because I don’t know what most players think. No one does. “So many” is simply because the amount of posts about this on several different GW2 forums is high enough to allow this phrase.
And for your to attack my use of this phrase and then use words “everyone knew” at the end of your post is a definite “LoL” moment. I guess you allow yourself more freedom with words than you do to others, ha. Furthermore, only those that were following the development of GW2 knew this “no Trinity” fact. But of course according to you, that means all players of GW2 at the moment. Unbelievable, really.

Roles in GW2 are (imo) blurred and not that well defined, not non existent. It’s also my opinion that with time, you will be expected to use certain weapons and skills for combo effects and similar. Which is not very different than expecting to use certain build.
It’s the samekitten It just smells and looks differently (a joke).

And I am not demanding anything, just expressing my opinion.

Ugh, I can’t believe I trolled myself like that -_- Touche, my choice of words were indeed hypocritical and poor. What I should have said is removal of the Holy Trinity was the Guild Wars 2 initiative from the start, not everyone knew.

As to the rest of your post given; that it is your opinion. My previous most should have made it clear that mine differs from yours and exactly why. I suppose we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this matter.

Achilles.3128:

symke.3105:

I didn’t use words like “most” or “majority” for a reason. Because I don’t know what most players think. No one does. “So many” is simply because the amount of posts about this on several different GW2 forums is high enough to allow this phrase.
And for your to attack my use of this phrase and then use words “everyone knew” at the end of your post is a definite “LoL” moment. I guess you allow yourself more freedom with words than you do to others, ha. Furthermore, only those that were following the development of GW2 knew this “no Trinity” fact. But of course according to you, that means all players of GW2 at the moment. Unbelievable, really.

Roles in GW2 are (imo) blurred and not that well defined, not non existent. It’s also my opinion that with time, you will be expected to use certain weapons and skills for combo effects and similar. Which is not very different than expecting to use certain build.
It’s the samekitten It just smells and looks differently (a joke).

And I am not demanding anything, just expressing my opinion.

Ugh, I can’t believe I trolled myself like that -_- Touche, my choice of words were indeed hypocritical and poor. What I should have said is removal of the Holy Trinity was the Guild Wars 2 initiative from the start, not everyone knew.

As to the rest of your post given; that it is your opinion. My previous most should have made it clear that mine differs from yours and exactly why. I suppose we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this matter.

Agree. In the end it is just a difference of opinions. Have a nice day .

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

Waypoc.6125:

That being said, what about the role of a Guardian as defined by it’s very name? Who is he guarding if not the group? Which brings me back to one of my suggestions above; having just a touch of aggro generation added so that when the group is going down, the guardian can draw aggro and and then plop down the wall of reflection you mentioned thereby allowing the group to recover a bit.

That’s why position is actually important in Guild Wars 2. Most of the guardian’s absorption/reflection abilities are sphere or lines. Wall of Reflection is an actual wall about 10 times the width of your character; plenty of room to protect your party. Then there’s abilities like Virtue of Courage (F3), which is not exactly a sphere of blocking but it applies a free block to every ally within range.

The main idea is that the combat and skills should keep you paying more attention to the game world than the various arbitrary numbers, bars, and meters typically associated with MMORPGs.

I get it. It seems that situational awareness is what’s needed by all group members, not just the Guardian, which I really like. I’m actually looking forward to trying what you laid out.

Any chance we can run a dungeon together? :-)

Morvick.8475:

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

Waypoc.6125:

That being said, what about the role of a Guardian as defined by it’s very name? Who is he guarding if not the group? Which brings me back to one of my suggestions above; having just a touch of aggro generation added so that when the group is going down, the guardian can draw aggro and and then plop down the wall of reflection you mentioned thereby allowing the group to recover a bit.

That’s why position is actually important in Guild Wars 2. Most of the guardian’s absorption/reflection abilities are sphere or lines. Wall of Reflection is an actual wall about 10 times the width of your character; plenty of room to protect your party. Then there’s abilities like Virtue of Courage (F3), which is not exactly a sphere of blocking but it applies a free block to every ally within range.

The main idea is that the combat and skills should keep you paying more attention to the game world than the various arbitrary numbers, bars, and meters typically associated with MMORPGs.

Not to mention I can guard my group from the rear or the frontlines; Save Yourselves + activate all of my Virtues + Tome Of Courage = one very confused, very alive party member who was expecting to be Defeated.

I spec my Guardian to mix equal parts control (movement-impairment on enemies, reflect attacks, blinds) and support (heal, condition purifying, Rally-oriented).

It’s even more useful and fluid than Aggro, because in tandem with someone like an Elementalist or an Engineer, I can control the movement of enemies at the limit of the range on my spells; “No, your bullets will not harass my Elementalist!” or “Boss, sit down before you fall down, enjoy my Line of Warding”.

It looks like Aggro because I can predict, counter, or nullify the advantages of the enemies. It’s better than Aggro because I can quickly retreat and get my bearings again and whip out my Staff to buff the group before resuming the CC from my Hammer or Shield-Scepter abilities.

Thanks for the extra tips here. As soon as I L80 my Ranger I’m definitely going Guardian.