Guild Wars 2

Having recently started playing around with some condition damage builds, I couldn’t help but notice the glaring issue with them – if more than one person is running a cond build, someone’s damage is going to take a big hit. Playing a cond Warr, I can easily maintain 15-20 bleeds, regularly capping at 25 with some luck and over 50% burn uptime. This is fine for solo play, but heaven help me if someone with more cond damage is around. This problem is even bigger in dungeons and simply silly in large scale events.

That being said, I understand that technical limitations are preventing the Devs from simply uncapping the stacks and letting it all run rampant. Each individual bleed would need to be tracked for cond damage and duration and it would get out of hand pretty quickly.

However, I believe that some kind of compromise could be implemented to mitigate the problem, if removing it altogether is impossible. To that end, I propose two methods of dealing with Bleeds, which are the main damaging condition for most cond builds. These changes are mostly aimed at small group content and I honestly can’t think of anything practical for massive zergfests.

1. Rebalance bleed numbers – higher damage, fewer stacks, maybe shorter duration. So instead of me applying 20 stacks of bleed I’d get to 10 stacks, each doing double the damage, resulting in the same overall DPS. Now, this wouldn’t solve everything, but it might allow 2-3 cond build people in the same group to not step all over each other’s toes. Lowering the duration but increasing the damage might also work, though it might make cond too bursty…

2. Create a new debuff. Let’s call it Hemorrhage (or something along those lines). When bleeds reach 25 stacks, they are removed, a single stack of Hemorrhage is applied, with the damage and duration equal to the average for the 25 stack previously in place. Maybe Hemo could stack to a degree as well.

Now, this is hardly perfect. For one thing, PvP is a definite consideration. For another, the second option might be limited to Champ and Boss fights only. But I think that saying technical limitations prevent any solution to this problem is lazy and that solutions could be found that don’t push the technical side too much and still allow cond build players not to dread group situations…

Jandau.5349:

1. Rebalance bleed numbers – higher damage, fewer stacks, maybe shorter duration. So instead of me applying 20 stacks of bleed I’d get to 10 stacks, each doing double the damage, resulting in the same overall DPS. Now, this wouldn’t solve everything, but it might allow 2-3 cond build people in the same group to not step all over each other’s toes. Lowering the duration but increasing the damage might also work, though it might make cond too bursty…

Higher numbers from where? Are you talking bumping up the base damage? The condition damage multiplier?

Tinkering with the amounts of stacks isn’t really going to work, considering that the primary source of Bleeds on a sword warrior are two skills that give 1 stack of bleed.

The thing is, there are multiple ways to stack bleeds. Some builds have a lot of stacks that don’t last that long, but can be reapplied fast. Others have low stack numbers with long durations instead.

2. Create a new debuff. Let’s call it Hemorrhage (or something along those lines). When bleeds reach 25 stacks, they are removed, a single stack of Hemorrhage is applied, with the damage and duration equal to the average for the 25 stack previously in place. Maybe Hemo could stack to a degree as well.

I don’t really get what you’re trying to say here. Are you asking for the 25 stacks to turn into a new debuff so that you can apply more stacks? Because that’s going to cause issues with not only the damage, but also the amount of calculations the game has to do. More bleeds means more durations to keep track of, more damage figures to calculate, more appliers to keep track of.

Also, you’re only talking about bleeds, but the actual condition damage issue spans all the popular conditions.

Olba.5376:

Higher numbers from where? Are you talking bumping up the base damage? The condition damage multiplier?

Both base damage and the multiplier, so that a skill that would normally apply 2 stacks would now apply 1 stack with the exact same total damage as before.

Tinkering with the amounts of stacks isn’t really going to work, considering that the primary source of Bleeds on a sword warrior are two skills that give 1 stack of bleed.

The thing is, there are multiple ways to stack bleeds. Some builds have a lot of stacks that don’t last that long, but can be reapplied fast. Others have low stack numbers with long durations instead.

Durations can also be changed. Or the skills could be tweaked a bit. For instance, in the case of the Warrior – Either both autoattack bleeds could last half as long but with twice the damage OR only the second attack would apply a single bleed stack that would do as much damage as two “old” stacks.

There are ways to work this out. For instance, Thief Pistol 1 applies a bleed with each shot. Make it a 2 attack chain where the 2nd attack applies a bleed. % chance bleed application (sigils, traits, etc.) could be rebalanced around lower proc chances to account for higher damage for each stack.

The overall idea is to rebalance bleed around a smaller number of stacks (and/or make them last shorter) so that a single player can’t cap out a single mob all on his own.

I don’t really get what you’re trying to say here. Are you asking for the 25 stacks to turn into a new debuff so that you can apply more stacks? Because that’s going to cause issues with not only the damage, but also the amount of calculations the game has to do. More bleeds means more durations to keep track of, more damage figures to calculate, more appliers to keep track of.

Of course this would increase the overall damage, that the point! If multiple players with cond builds are present only one or two of them with the highest cond damage will see any damage done. The others will be plinking away with their zero power base damage attacks since their stacks will never get their turn. Compare this to Power builds who all get to do their damage regardless of the number of people present and I’m sure you can agree that this isn’t really fair. Imagine if mobs had a cap on the amount of direct damage they could take each second and anything above that is ignored.

As for the extra calculations, of course there would be extra calculations. But the idea here is that tracking a single additional debuff (that occasionally recalculates) would be easier than tracking 200+ bleed stacks that would appear in a second if the cap was simply removed.

It’s about finding a way around the cap without simply removing it.

the rebalance the condi damage for higher damage ratios thing has been a much needed process since the first month of launch. That was when they nerfed condi damage in PVE across the board and the first time people complained about nerfs in this game en mass because of this game not being balanced by separating the coded behaviors between PVE PVP skills.

Condi damage isn’t universal on all classes either even with the highest gear some classes can have totally higher condi DoTs without even being specced for condi damage or by being in berserker gear.

Like my thief for example, all in zerker gear. Her bleeds do 20-25 more damage per tick then my all condi built engineer.

So not only is there a stack issue, there’s also a problem with the amount of damage not being equal between specs/builds. If one is in Zerker gear for example with no condi damage bonuses on the gear they should not have better condi damage then an all condi built toon of another class period, in fact these armor sets should reduce condi damage when worn because they aren’t for that specific type of damage.

Jandau.5349:

Both base damage and the multiplier, so that a skill that would normally apply 2 stacks would now apply 1 stack with the exact same total damage as before.

Durations can also be changed. Or the skills could be tweaked a bit. For instance, in the case of the Warrior – Either both autoattack bleeds could last half as long but with twice the damage OR only the second attack would apply a single bleed stack that would do as much damage as two “old” stacks.

Wait, are you suggesting that each skill have different base damage and multipliers? Because that’s not the way to go. That would not only make bleed specs confusing as hell, but it would also make stacking bleeds from different skills reach a ridiculous level of complexity in terms of the calculations done.

The overall idea is to rebalance bleed around a smaller number of stacks (and/or make them last shorter) so that a single player can’t cap out a single mob all on his own.

The thing is, the shorter your stacks, the weaker bleeds become in WvW. For example, take the popular Melandru + Lemongrass setup on a 12s bleed. That’ll result in it turning into a 4s bleed. Take the same setup on a 4s bleed and it’ll be down to 1s. The former goes to exactly 1/3 damage, whereas the latter is down to 1/4.

Also, a lower amount of stacks is going to produce issues with certain skills. For example, what about Caltrops? Make them apply less than the 2 stacks every 1 seconds and you’ve practically ruined them.

The thing is, the reason bleeding has lower base damage and worse scaling is because once you reach the cap it’s far superior to all other forms of conditions. For pure damage, anyway. Bleeding is an alternative type of condition damage. Just like for direct damage you have builds that have low but consistent/easy-to-apply damage, whereas others have high but infrequent/easier-to-avoid damage.

Of course this would increase the overall damage, that the point! If multiple players with cond builds are present only one or two of them with the highest cond damage will see any damage done. The others will be plinking away with their zero power base damage attacks since their stacks will never get their turn. Compare this to Power builds who all get to do their damage regardless of the number of people present and I’m sure you can agree that this isn’t really fair. Imagine if mobs had a cap on the amount of direct damage they could take each second and anything above that is ignored.

Fair or not, making conditions do more damage isn’t a simple thing. The issue lies pretty much completely with bosses that can take so much damage that the stacks do reach the 25 cap and stay there.

As for the extra calculations, of course there would be extra calculations. But the idea here is that tracking a single additional debuff (that occasionally recalculates) would be easier than tracking 200+ bleed stacks that would appear in a second if the cap was simply removed.

But the thing is, you have to consider how the new debuff would be calculated. Firstly, it’s duration would have to be calculated based on the 25 stacks that originally triggered it. The damage it deals would also have to be based on the 25 stacks that it originated from. Considering that the new debuff would naturally have to have the duration of the actual 25 stacks, the result would most likely be the new debuff lasting a “glorious” 1-2 seconds.

It’s about finding a way around the cap without simply removing it.

But you don’t need to change the bleed mechanic or the skills to do that. Make bosses able to resist conditions, able to remove them. We already have Defiant and Determined, why not have a third one?

Olba.5376:

Wait, are you suggesting that each skill have different base damage and multipliers? Because that’s not the way to go. That would not only make bleed specs confusing as hell, but it would also make stacking bleeds from different skills reach a ridiculous level of complexity in terms of the calculations done.

I am NOT suggesting that. I’m simply suggesting that the base damage and multiplier universal to all bleeds be increased. Unless I’m understanding bleeds completely wrong, all bleeds have the same base damage and scaling, only the durations are different.

So I’m suggesting that the base damage and scaling be UNIVERSALLY increased and that duration and/or application mechanics be revised, with the end result being the same condition DPS with a lower number of stacks per player.

The thing is, the shorter your stacks, the weaker bleeds become in WvW. For example, take the popular Melandru + Lemongrass setup on a 12s bleed. That’ll result in it turning into a 4s bleed. Take the same setup on a 4s bleed and it’ll be down to 1s. The former goes to exactly 1/3 damage, whereas the latter is down to 1/4.

That’s a rounding problem. You could just as easily round it up to 2 seconds.

Also, a lower amount of stacks is going to produce issues with certain skills. For example, what about Caltrops? Make them apply less than the 2 stacks every 1 seconds and you’ve practically ruined them.

Ummm, what? Caltrops are likely on of the LEAST problematic skills for what I’m suggesting. Since I’m basically advocating doubling the bleed damage, Caltrops would simply apply 1 bleed every second instead of 2. The damage would stay the same. I’m not sure how that would “ruin” it…

The thing is, the reason bleeding has lower base damage and worse scaling is because once you reach the cap it’s far superior to all other forms of conditions. For pure damage, anyway. Bleeding is an alternative type of condition damage. Just like for direct damage you have builds that have low but consistent/easy-to-apply damage, whereas others have high but infrequent/easier-to-avoid damage.

And this would change nothing about bleed damage. The output you’d get when playing solo would be the same. All that would change is that in group settings certain players wouldn’t have a chunk of their damage removed for no better reason than poor coding on ANet’s part.

Fair or not, making conditions do more damage isn’t a simple thing. The issue lies pretty much completely with bosses that can take so much damage that the stacks do reach the 25 cap and stay there.

Stacks reach the 25 cap in under 3 seconds. I can get over 20 stacks in around 5 secs alone on my Warr. Unless you’re proposing that bosses drop in a few seconds, I don’t see what you’re trying to say with this.

But the thing is, you have to consider how the new debuff would be calculated. Firstly, it’s duration would have to be calculated based on the 25 stacks that originally triggered it. The damage it deals would also have to be based on the 25 stacks that it originated from. Considering that the new debuff would naturally have to have the duration of the actual 25 stacks, the result would most likely be the new debuff lasting a “glorious” 1-2 seconds.

Exactly, the new debuff wouldn’t last long and calculating it would be a simple matter of adding up two sets of 25 numbers (duration and damage) and averaging the value. It would be a minimum of extra work for the server and would allow cond builds to play together without actively hampering each other.

But you don’t need to change the bleed mechanic or the skills to do that. Make bosses able to resist conditions, able to remove them. We already have Defiant and Determined, why not have a third one?

Wait, so your solution to the problem of condition damage is to basically lower condition damage further? Really? That’s what you got?

Olba has some good points. In relation to poison and burning, bleeding would be way too powerful. And the hemorrhage thing just wouldn’t work. Necros have a trait that applies a bleed for 1 sec 66% of the time that they crit for example. Because it lasts for 1 second and they can apply it one or more times a second, the hemorrhage calculated off of that bleed would be guaranteed to last 1 second (say they didn’t invest in condition duration). And new hemorrhage would get created in less than a second from another applied bleed from another crit or whatever. If you have two necros doing this that hemorrhage is going to be applied and disappear every 1/4 of a second. That seems like even more calculations to me. Also it would have to be a weird sort of non-condition condition. It would affect Target the Weak for example (+2% dmg for each condition on enemy) and some other traits and skills. So it would have to be in the group of things like invulnerability and haste except it would have to be able to be cleansed like a condition.

My suggestion: increase base toughness on everything, especially dungeon monsters and bosses(Less dmg from non-condition sources) which should balance the discrepancy. Then lower base vitality a bit so that the whole game doesn’t take forever to kill stuff.
^This suggestion seems way too simple. I’m sure I’ve forgotten about some factor in there.

If you really want to cut down on the computing and have everyone’s damage count in PVE, just apply condition ticks on a first come first served basis. Then, once the cap is reached, new condition stacks deal all of their damage upfront. You could do this with burning and poison as well once the cap on their duration is reached.