Guild Wars 2

I’ve been thinking about how Elementalists are pretty much kitten into using all the elements if they want to excel.

On one hand:
Sure, ANet designed it this way. This is how it should be played.

On the other hand:
Some people don’t want to be Aang or Korra, the Avatar. They want to the Toph or Iroh, the ultimate masters of kittenery in a single element!

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So, here’s what I’m thinking.

Allow an Ele to equip a second weapon set – BUT

• when they swapped to another attunement, the other two unused attunements are henceforth unavailable. (Until one of the wep sets are removed)

What this does is:
1. Expand the number of skills an Ele has access to in a single attunement (from 5 to 10)
Allowing for depth into a single element over depth between elements.

2. Counterbalance by removing the utility of the other attunements. (10 other skills)
A simple eye-for-an-eye kind of deal, which is more then fair in my opinion, since the other attunements give the Ele versatility.

I think this would work in make investing into an non-arcane trait-line more effective, giving Eles the ability to specialize in their preferred attunement.
And if an Ele is giving up the other elements, the balance issues are probably minimal, barring any niche unforeseen synergy that can always be dealt with by a nerf.

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Mechanical Fluidity

No weapon-swap button needs to be added. The “flavor” of the elementalist can be preserved.

The 2nd weapon set can merely replace the F-keys that aren’t used by the unavailable attunements.
Example: F1 – Fire Staff, F2 – Water Staff, F3 – Fire Scepter, F4 – Water Scepter.

This even removes the need to balance for weapon swap cooldown. The cooldowns can still be kept at 15 seconds, consistent with current attunments.

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My original idea was to allow Eles to equip 3 weapon sets and then be restricted to 1 attunment (allowing only for 15 skills)

But, then it hit me that if Warriors can’t even do that, there’s no way ANet would let the Ele do so. LOL
Maybe if the 2 wep sets for 2 attunements idea works, they may give that some thought.

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Comments? Criticisms? (Unproductively negative comments will be ignored)

Sorry to rain down on your parade here but i dislike this idea.

Simply put taking out any attunement makes elementalists….well not really elementalists.

The whole concept behind the elementalist is the 4 elements;

Fire, Earth, Water, Air.

Take any of them away and we will be fractured and the concept destroyed making eles feel….well fell non-attuned to the nature.

I agree we need weapon swapping, but not your idea.

Weapon swap out of combat would be more efficient and life quality will rise.

Sorry to disagree with your idea, a good idea, but not for the game i feel.

So, you’re in the “avatar” camp of things.

Being jack-of-all-trades is the only way to play? The idea of being the master of a one or two elements doesn’t count / isn’t good enough?

I’d like to hear WHY you think that is exactly. Besides the fact that ANet set it up that way.

Example:
How is having 10 skills in fire / water any less then 5 skills in fire/water/air/earth.

IMO: Both have 40 skills, separated into different elements. There’s no universal definition of Elementalist that says it has to be 4 elements, just different ones.

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And what I’m suggesting here is not about swapping while out of combat.
My suggestion is directly in regards to combat and skill-depth.

This is where I hope perhaps we’ll see some form of heroic professions at max level – don’t increase levels forever but instead off horizontal progression where perhaps an Elementalist could choose a path of specialization into a Storm-Singer (Water & Air) etc etc…

Same with other classes so it would be fair, able to balance and offer all a chance to explore different specializations without messing up or over-complicating the leveling.

I’d love to see each profession expand it’s options into 3 distinct paths or specializations at max as long as those could be changed/redone as well so we’re still not permanently limited to a bad choice.

I don’t like the idea of more weapon swaps for an elementalist as that loses their flavor and the identity of what they are really.

@Alf:
I really don’t see weapon swaps as causing Eles to lose their flavor, not if they’re giving up an attunement. Mechanically speaking – Each attunement is equivalent to different weapon.

Giving up attunements for a weapon set is no different from a warrior swapping one weapon for another in my eyes.

Example: A Fire-attuned Ele using a staff can’t use Static Field, but he can switch to Air to use Static Field.
Now, how would that be any different from letting Fire attuned Ele using a staff can’t use Phoenix, switch to scepter? (Besides the fact it’s not currently available)

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ANet could even make it so that it changes like this:
Staff -> Equip a scepter -> Change from Fire to Earth attunement.
F1 and F4 stay Fire and Earth staff attunement. F2 and F3 become Scepter / Off-hand attunment!

No actual weapon-swap button added. It can be very fluid if you let it be.

I like it, especially that last bit, as my biggest complaint with being essentially forced to attunement hop to be decent is that I prefer Fire from staff, Water from D/D, and Earth from Sceptor/D. Being able to set something like that up, even at least partially, would be amazing.

While I appreciate that they balanced all 4 elements where most games (in my experience) let you have one with maybe a semi decent second, sometimes I just want to be an Air Ele

I don’t see how this would be better than having the ability to swap weapons while out of combat with one button. This just seems very confusing to new players, basically destroys the whole concept of Attuning and is difficult to implement, while the alternative option is pretty simple.

I’m glad that there’s finally a game with an elementalist/mage/wizard class that actually let’s you use all elements instead of forcing you to only use one because that’s better. It’s called Elementalist, because it masters all elements.

Plus having an element that works best for a weapon-set is only logical, because if all attunements for all sets were completely equal Elementalists would be OP. Now you do have an element that might work best, but you are still always better off if you attune to different elements during battles because those weaker elements are more situation-based.

DreamOfACure.4382:

So, you’re in the “avatar” camp of things.

Being jack-of-all-trades is the only way to play? The idea of being the master of a one or two elements doesn’t count / isn’t good enough?

I’d like to hear WHY you think that is exactly. Besides the fact that ANet set it up that way.

Example:
How is having 10 skills in fire / water any less then 5 skills in fire/water/air/earth.

IMO: Both have 40 skills, separated into different elements. There’s no universal definition of Elementalist that says it has to be 4 elements, just different ones.

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And what I’m suggesting here is not about swapping while out of combat.
My suggestion is directly in regards to combat and skill-depth.

I have to agree with roostapro. Why? Well, for one thing, such a thing would destroy the build I’m currently running. I don’t want to be locked into 2 elements, I want the versatility of 4 elements. Not because that’s the only way to play but because that’s the way I like to play. I wouldn’t be against them making this type of thing available but I don’t want to have to relearn to play my character for a change like this. I don’t always need to heal so I don’t usually use water very much. With your suggestion, I would end up locked into two of the other three elements and should the need arise, be unable to get a little extra healing and likely end up dying. Being able to jump into any element at any time affords me different boons and skill sets that wouldn’t be the same being locked into two elements—even if I had the skills from two different weapon sets.
At least in my opinion, the way things are currently set up makes elementalists need the versatility in order to be playable. The four elements create balance. In my opinion, to make them viable with only two elements, the skills would need to be buffed up a lot or recreated entirely. We were designed to have access to the skills across four elements and the skills from the same elements from another weapon set would not make up for the loss. If you’ve found a different way to play that does actually make such a thing work, that’s great. In my experience and with what I’ve seen of other elementalists though, I feel like the need for versatility is the same among at least a fair portion of elementalists.

I will say, however, that something like what Alf was suggesting sounds good. To be able to purpose to specialize in one or two elements and truly be powerful could be pretty awesome.

In short, we were designed to be versatile and without a major overhaul, taking away two elements takes away the ability to be versatile rendering the elementalist practically useless.

Kasaeva.4691:

I have to agree with roostapro. Why? Well, for one thing, such a thing would destroy the build I’m currently running. I don’t want to be locked into 2 elements, I want the versatility of 4 elements.

Then don’t equip two weapon sets… It’s that simple.

My suggestion says nothing about making having 2 sets mandatory. o_O
It wouldn’t make 4 attunements obsolete either. You’d simply be more versatile, while the 2-set builds have more specialization.

Ah, I see. I was unclear as to whether you were saying to make it the way eles were played or just as an option. As I said before, I’m not against them making it available as an option but, I don’t want to be forced into it.

I think there’s a lot of nice ideas and good points made in the thread…

I like the OP’s idea as it would make varied builds alot wider vs the current stale fare we have now… I’m even getting bored of my own elementalist because there’s only 4 weapons and the attunements feel like they’re sprinkled with intentionally weak skills to balance out the good ones making certain attunements on certain weapons weaker to achive artificial balance.

And this is why I don’t think the idea the OP posted will work out despite how varied you can build your elementalist. If I could, basically, pick out the bad attunements and stick with only the strong, that could upset balance and require skills to be nerfed. For instance, Air in staff is pretty weak, water in dagger and focus is pretty weak, earth scepter is pretty slow, etc. If you wanted the best of water, you probably go scepter/dagger and staff, the best out of fire same thing, the best out of earth dagger or focus, the best out of air same thing.

“This is where I hope perhaps we’ll see some form of heroic professions at max level – don’t increase levels forever but instead off horizontal progression where perhaps an Elementalist could choose a path of specialization into a Storm-Singer (Water & Air) etc etc…”

I like this idea. Incorporated into the OP, you could possibly make a ‘specialized profession’ out of the elementalist in using the idea of multi-weapons but over 2 attunements. But again, I say if you make it an extension to another profession, it can circumvent abuse like going to your hero panel and swapping your second elements around out of combat (that’s for the generalized elementalist, not someone specialized). And in doing that, you can also rebalance skills and traits to compensate for the change.

For instance, if you choose to advance your elementalist down the path of air, you have to be level 80, have 30 pt in Air and choose to have your elementalist focus on it. Then choose another element (you don’t need points in it) which will remove the other two element’s trait lines. This will leave those two trait lines open (keeping 30pts locked in Air) while leaving you 40pts to distribute to your secondary element, arcane and 2 new trait lines that work as combinations of those two elements (look to the chinese set of elements for these).

I actually like the idea of specialized professions if done right, they could feel like whole new classes but still have its roots in the base profession, giving up some of the versatility for, what might amount to, more lore/aesthetic/thematic differences.

Leo G.4501:

If I could, basically, pick out the bad attunements and stick with only the strong, that could upset balance and require skills to be nerfed. For instance, Air in staff is pretty weak, water in dagger and focus is pretty weak, earth scepter is pretty slow, etc. If you wanted the best of water, you probably go scepter/dagger and staff, the best out of fire same thing, the best out of earth dagger or focus, the best out of air same thing.

That is a matter of ANet balancing the skills, not a problem with the idea itself.

As far as I’m concerned, it’s a matter of opinion whether an attunement is weaker then another on the same weapon.

Which only reinforces my idea for specializing. Choosing attunements that suit you over ones that don’t. Some people prefer DPS and defensive power of fire and earth over the Supportive strengths of Water or CC/Mobility of Air.

Please don’t make assumptions like “it would ruin balance”, or “it conflicts with how things are now”. That’s all determined by ANet’s decisions, not the current status-quo.

DreamOfACure.4382:

Leo G.4501:

If I could, basically, pick out the bad attunements and stick with only the strong, that could upset balance and require skills to be nerfed. For instance, Air in staff is pretty weak, water in dagger and focus is pretty weak, earth scepter is pretty slow, etc. If you wanted the best of water, you probably go scepter/dagger and staff, the best out of fire same thing, the best out of earth dagger or focus, the best out of air same thing.

That is a matter of ANet balancing the skills, not a problem with the idea itself.

As far as I’m concerned, it’s your subjective opinion that they are weak, not necessarily the attunement itself.

Which only reinforces my idea for specializing. Choosing attunements that suit you over ones that don’t. Some people prefer DPS and defensive power of fire and earth over the Supportive strengths of Water or CC/Mobility of Air.

Please don’t make assumptions like “it would ruin balance”, or “it conflicts with how things are now”. That’s all determined by ANet’s decisions, not the current status-quo.

I’m not really making assumptions.

Another part of how the weapons themselves are balanced is combo fields/finishers. Notice that Staff has all the combo fields while the others tend to lack the fields but have the combos.

That’s another form of balance that would be upset if they just added weapon swapping.

If you’re going to accuse others of making baseless assumptions, then don’t go being a hypocrite and making assumptions like ‘there is nothing wrong with my idea’.

Several things already pointed out about your idea that you haven’t addressed:

-It is very user-unfriendly. What will the UI look like on that? Elementalist is already a very involved and complex class and these changes will just make the class all the more confusing.

-People already work around the current system by just manually swapping their elementalist’s weapons. What makes your idea so novel that anet should have to rebalance the entire class for your thematic desire to focus on a particular element? If not, what’s stopping someone from just swapping secondary/primary elements out of combat?

-And of course the balance/combo fields/finishers, since it’s obvious the devs balanced the weapons as a set of skills vs piecewise and this does give you a means of piecing parts of the whole set for better effect. Elementalists don’t really need to be better than they are, they seem about right.

This makes perfect sense.. not sure why everyone doesn’t understand it.

An attunement changes your five skills. By default, you have 4×5 skills available on your bar.

If you halve the amount of attunements by selecting two while out of combat and then allow weapon swapping…

You still have 4×5 skills. You just gain more overall versatility as a profession and it allows people to specialize a bit more.

I like the idea and it makes total sense, really there is no downside except they would have to make sure that there aren’t any combinations that are too overpowered while using two sets of skills of the same two elements. It would indeed allow better healing as you could have two water attunement bars.. but you would lack the option of two of your elements. Its a trade off.

Really, it wouldn’t effect how things work currently, it would give you more options. Why are you complaining about the concept of more options? I don’t even main my elementalist. I found it to be a bit boring due to the fact that I had such limited control of my build.

Aw hell no. What’s next, getting 4 weapon sets and giving up those 3 pesky attunements you don’t like because FIRE SMASH? Elementalist trait lines are balanced so that you have to choose between powerful options that makes you beastly in a certain attunement over having a more balanced performance across several attunements. What you’re suggesting lets you essentially trait 30/30 with 10 in arcana and be the equivalent of a 30/30/30/30/10 elementalist currently.

As aforementioned, they’d need to look at the issue of using double sets and balance them accordingly. They have people for that. There are ways to prevent the traits from becoming overpowered such as halving them or statistical dithering.

They actually aren’t that balanced currently anyway, mathematically. The trait lines you trait into rarely happen to be the ones you end up using more often in any sensical build. Certain options are way more viable. On my main, I can use two skills and do everything better with a shorter time frame, higher dps, and more survivability than a diversified ele build because like many an empire, it stretches itself too thin and collapses into itself. Ele need the ability to focus a bit more. Most other classes have it. With the ele, I’d end up using several attunements and skills to accomplish the same thing while also sitting through the long winded animations on the ele. It ends up being a matter of elementalists fighting their user interface more than their opponent.. and so the opponent will win unless a cookie cutter build is used.

Sorry, just being honest about it. Its still fun to play. Just impractical. When I fight elementalists I end up destroying them as they switch attunements and suffer from long cast times or general unwieldiness if they are trying to spread themselves too thin. It doesn’t matter how many guns you have if you can’t fire them all in any reasonable time frame.

DreamOfACure.4382:

That is a matter of ANet balancing the skills, not a problem with the idea itself.

As far as I’m concerned, it’s a matter of opinion whether an attunement is weaker then another on the same weapon.

Which only reinforces my idea for specializing. Choosing attunements that suit you over ones that don’t. Some people prefer DPS and defensive power of fire and earth over the Supportive strengths of Water or CC/Mobility of Air.

Please don’t make assumptions like “it would ruin balance”, or “it conflicts with how things are now”. That’s all determined by ANet’s decisions, not the current status-quo.

Actually it’s not. They deliberately based the skills around the whole four attunements system, to balance the profession compared to other professions. This would lead to completely changing the mechanisms and skills of Elementalists.
The four attunements system is the status-quo here and it’s all meant for Ele’s to be versatile and have normal damage skills combined with situational skills. This could lead to OP Ele’s because they only want to take the damage skills so they can glass-cannon everything, because of the damage output. This is however just not how it works in this game. Every profession has skills to balance it out, because all have to be hybrids (no healing profession).
So that’s why I’m against this idea and just want us to have the ability to swap weapons while out of combat, purely for convenience.