Guild Wars 2

There would be simple solution by giving those players who already archieved it some kind of compensation dependant on ingame coins or diamonds…

If you would see it clearly there ARE more negative aspects as if you ever try to convince us otherwise,

if you introduce new content without a beta-run with some player votes, what you did for the WHOLE game before btw, you could simply admit your failure and remove something what NOONE likes

Edit:
got an awsome reply which would be an solution as well

SpyderArachnid.5619:

I think the best thing they can do is reduce the stats of Ascended gear to Exotic level.

Then remove the bonus stats for a gem, and keep the Infusion Slot. This way, people can decide if they want to use Exotics for the Gem Slot buff, or use Ascended gear for the Infusion Slot buff. But either way, they will both have the same stats, just one will have a Gem Slot, while the other will have an Infusion Slot.

They should, and they should definitely admit that creating linear gear progression past 80 exotics is wrong.

how can you tell that more people dislike ascended gear then people like it?

A better question is why cant you just ignore that content if you dont like it?

Like Arenanet said an MMO is played by different people who like different things.

Some People like PvE but hate PvP, should they remove sPvP and WvW because of that? But then again some people love PvP and hate PvE. Should PvE go? You could say that about every single aspect of the game from jumping puzzles to exploration!

The game gives you a lot of different content to play why is it a problem to pick the content you like and ignore the one you dont like ? the way you play will surely define the future direction of the game! If everyone plays FoTM none stop that will send the message to whoever analysis metrics that that is exactly what people enjoy doing ! so by ignoring it you’ll also help make sure we get less of it in the future !

Because the game is not designed with class system rich or varied enough to support long term horizontal rewards.

Like it or hate it (as I do) vertical progression is about all the progression you can add to this game.

I think the best thing they can do is reduce the stats of Ascended gear to Exotic level.

Then remove the bonus stats for a gem, and keep the Infusion Slot. This way, people can decide if they want to use Exotics for the Gem Slot buff, or use Ascended gear for the Infusion Slot buff. But either way, they will both have the same stats, just one will have a Gem Slot, while the other will have an Infusion Slot.

“how can you tell that more people dislike ascended gear then people like it?”

Talk to people about it. I haven’t met a single person who likes FOTM as an idea. Even without it being ascended the fact that the drop rate of items in it is so much greater than any other dungeon means that every other one has become inefficient. I think that they should remove the instance all together, the whole different level grinding goes against the entire games model.

“A better question is why cant you just ignore that content if you dont like it?”

Because being weaker than others is not fun. Also people like being efficient. In fact spending time doing a dungeon with much lower drops actually is psychologically troubling, as the brain knows you could be doing better.

More so the entire game was marketed as being open ended and being able to play your way. Dynamic events, the looting system, tons of gear that is of the same stats but different looks rather than endlessly progressing tiers, “personal” story etc. Yet it has been a few months or so and they are already changing things to a normal mmo grind fest, as if they forgot the whole focus of the game. I think that is why a lot of people are upset, if things go that direction in such a short time, how far will the game sway from its model later. Also from talking to others, many feel lied to and unheard. After all almost everyone has been saying how wrong FOTM is, but rather than trying to remove it, the staff keeps saying how great it is, and talking about expanding it even further.

“Some People like PvE but hate PvP, should they remove sPvP and WvW because of that? "

This is not an issue of “some people” I have not heard a single person saying they think FOTM was a good idea in game. EVERY single person I have heard when the issue is brought up have been complaining.

I wouldn’t give a beep if the stat of Legendary, Ascended and Exotic are the same. If as ANet said the difference is insignificant, then why have it in the first place? Just keep the top stat at the Exotic rank and everyone would be happy.

ocfallwind.4821:

I wouldn’t give a beep if the stat of Legendary, Ascended and Exotic are the same. If as ANet said the difference is insignificant, then why have it in the first place? Just keep the top stat at the Exotic rank and everyone would be happy.

FOTM would still be OP given how much higher the drop rates are. Even gear alone without including all of the 400 crafting mats.

I am sure that would be very popular with those that have spent loads of materials and time to get those Ascended items aye?

I love how you believe you are speaking for the whole community.

I’m guessing roughly 1-5% of players even go on the forums which is where you are seeing all the complaining.

People only go onto the forums to complain.

Understand what I am saying?

JumblyJebus.5903:

I love how you believe you are speaking for the whole community.

I’m guessing roughly 1-5% of players even go on the forums which is where you are seeing all the complaining.

People only go onto the forums to complain.

Understand what I am saying?

i speak for me and my friends, which 90% of them left the game and dont even went to forums couse they know it better … it wont change anything at all
and 10% which still log into the game (dont play it really anymore) and have the same opion as me,
as well for my guild of 300 members, who share my thoughts couse i talked actually to someone

you dont know me and just declare that i take everything out from the blue,..

i have more than enough input to speak for a community

And yet there are over 2 million accounts in this game, how many of those that are active we don’t know. What we do know however is that those 300 members is not even 1 % of the game population.

I can use anecdotal evidence as well:
When I talked with people in Lion’s Arch and WvW about it not a single person complained about it.

See?
That means just as much people as your guild (if not more) that don’t have a problem with it.

Amen.2630:

JumblyJebus.5903:

I love how you believe you are speaking for the whole community.

I’m guessing roughly 1-5% of players even go on the forums which is where you are seeing all the complaining.

People only go onto the forums to complain.

Understand what I am saying?

i speak for me and my friends, which 90% of them left the game and dont even went to forums couse they know it better … it wont change anything at all
and 10% which still log into the game (dont play it really anymore) and have the same opion as me,
as well for my guild of 300 members, who share my thoughts couse i talked actually to someone

you dont know me and just declare that i take everything out from the blue,.. noob

I’m sure you friends share similar thoughts as you, that’s why they are your friends.

You’ve probably spoken to 5-10 of your guild members and are now trying to tell me it was all 300 to try and support your story.

I’m not going to insult you like you tried to insult me by calling me a noob because you are right, I don’t know you.

Galen Grey.4709:

how can you tell that more people dislike ascended gear then people like it?
!

with numeric evidence on the forums (too much for the vocal minority excuse).
numeric eveidence from internet
Just analyzing wich target audience they advertised the game to
Thinking what made GW1 successful
with the poll they did
because valuing grinding over skill has proved to be a BAD and surpassed system in mmorpgs at least 10 years ago….despite some mmorpgs still adopt this.

Now those are tools not fault proof for sure but taking all of them becomes quite a proof.

On the other side, is there any evidence most people wanted vertical progression?
I didn t see any.

Imho we shouldn t even discuss this

They just will try to keep most of their old playerbase and attract some more……quite greedy and unfair imho but its only my opinion.

Because people would be getting to the power plateau too quickly and have no need to invest any time into getting more powerful anymore.
Item Progression == Fun, Plateauing == Stagnancy ©ANet 2012

A big part of the treadmill comes with new infusion tiers, which exotics could be made compatible with. However, the cost that has to be associated with the new items to keep people progressing would’ve been easily perceived as being unfair. They needed to introduce something more rewarding, something that justified the amount of grin…time players have to invest without feeling ripped off. The solution had to be visual and distinctive: A new tier color and gear skin, whether it was just a different icon in your equipment tab or an actual in game skin(quiver).

Imagine if the cost of an infusion alone was what is now + the time you have to invest to get an ascended gear piece. People would have compl…. misunderstood ANet’s intentions even more than they already do.

tl;dr – they needed something to slow people from power plateauing, and since an invisible upgrade with the cost of an infusion plus an ascended gear piece would’ve caused even more drama, they introduced shinies in the form of a new tier color and gear skins.

LordByron.8369:

Galen Grey.4709:

how can you tell that more people dislike ascended gear then people like it?
!

with numeric evidence on the forums (too much for the vocal minority excuse).
numeric eveidence from internet
Just analyzing wich target audience they advertised the game to
Thinking what made GW1 successful
with the poll they did

Now those are tools not fault proof for sure but taking all of them becomes quite a proof.

On the other side, is there any evidence most people wanted vertical progression?
I didn t see any.

Imho we shouldn t even discuss this

They just will try to keep most of their old playerbase and attract some more……quite greedy and unfair imho but its only my opinion.

“with numeric evidence on the forums (too much for the vocal minority excuse).”
The entire forums are the minority.

“numeric eveidence from internet”
Same people on the forums. Read above response.

“Just analyzing wich target audience they advertised the game to”
They were NEVER only targeting the GW1 fanbase, but all types of players.

“Thinking what made GW1 successful”
Oh this is the only way for a game to be successful then. You guys are just pulling random evidence out of your kitties.

“with the poll they did”
Read above. Just more random evidence. Also same people that use the forums.

Can anyone on these forums come up with anything legit?

“No one likes ascended gear.”

“The whiners in this forum are a vocal minority.”

Uh…No. The correct answer is, I have no idea, you have no idea, none of us here has any idea how many people exactly is against ascended items, or love the idea of ascended items. And no, personal experience is a terrible indicator of what the overall population thinks.

Discussions like this thread where people try to argue about the how big of a player base actually like/hates the new feature is completely and utterly pointless. You can present the fact that you don’t like ascended items as an opinion. Please refrain from saying stupid things like “obviously everyone hates/loves it.”

Syrup.8019:

“how can you tell that more people dislike ascended gear then people like it?”

Talk to people about it. I haven’t met a single person who likes FOTM as an idea. Even without it being ascended the fact that the drop rate of items in it is so much greater than any other dungeon means that every other one has become inefficient. I think that they should remove the instance all together, the whole different level grinding goes against the entire games model.

“A better question is why cant you just ignore that content if you dont like it?”

Because being weaker than others is not fun. Also people like being efficient. In fact spending time doing a dungeon with much lower drops actually is psychologically troubling, as the brain knows you could be doing better.

More so the entire game was marketed as being open ended and being able to play your way. Dynamic events, the looting system, tons of gear that is of the same stats but different looks rather than endlessly progressing tiers, “personal” story etc. Yet it has been a few months or so and they are already changing things to a normal mmo grind fest, as if they forgot the whole focus of the game. I think that is why a lot of people are upset, if things go that direction in such a short time, how far will the game sway from its model later. Also from talking to others, many feel lied to and unheard. After all almost everyone has been saying how wrong FOTM is, but rather than trying to remove it, the staff keeps saying how great it is, and talking about expanding it even further.

“Some People like PvE but hate PvP, should they remove sPvP and WvW because of that? "

This is not an issue of “some people” I have not heard a single person saying they think FOTM was a good idea in game. EVERY single person I have heard when the issue is brought up have been complaining.

Look better, there are people on this forum praising it, there people praising it in the large thread that had 10k posts which even if every post came from a unique person its just a fraction of the 2m+ game population.

The thing I dont get honestly is how so many people are so against vertical progression and yet play the game with a vertical progression mind set!

I will not play dungeon X because Dungeon Y has better rewards is a vertical progression mind set! a horizontal progression mindset would be hmm I have to play Dungeon X because it has the skin I want! I have to play this level 1 – 15 zone cause I havent explored it yet! I have to wait here until this event I havent experianced yet spawns… Thats how I expect people who like horizontal progression think! yet I keep hearing this content is more rewarding so I will just play that!

I dont get it honestly! seems to me most people really want a vertical progression game that they can play horizontally or something! I honestly dont get it ! Horizontal progressive games arent about the reward, arent about the power, arent about the money! they’re about playing your way, see something to facinates you, you go explore it and not feel you’re now cut off because another player went and got the best weapon and yes Ascended gear goes against this in a sense but the game solved that issue by removing competition in PvE, having everyone on the same level in sPvP and making a single person irellevant in WvW (which is the only place that gear has an bearing whatsoever! and honestly far from what people think I am geared in Rares and do more then fine in WvW have an obsurd kill to death ratio for me who am not a PvP player! Something close to 5 kills to ever death! with sub par gear)

For your conveniance here is a post that praises FoTM:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/All-dungeons-should-receive-fractal-treatment

Always keep in mind you will always see more people complaining than praising!

for example I never saw anyone praise say level scaling, saw a few posts saying its a bad idea and players should keep the power they get as they level up… that doesnt mean level scaling isnt the most amazing feature a horizontal progression game can have right?

JumblyJebus.5903:

LordByron.8369:

Galen Grey.4709:

how can you tell that more people dislike ascended gear then people like it?
!

with numeric evidence on the forums (too much for the vocal minority excuse).
numeric eveidence from internet
Just analyzing wich target audience they advertised the game to
Thinking what made GW1 successful
with the poll they did

Now those are tools not fault proof for sure but taking all of them becomes quite a proof.

On the other side, is there any evidence most people wanted vertical progression?
I didn t see any.

Imho we shouldn t even discuss this

They just will try to keep most of their old playerbase and attract some more……quite greedy and unfair imho but its only my opinion.

“with numeric evidence on the forums (too much for the vocal minority excuse).”
The entire forums are the minority.

“numeric eveidence from internet”
Same people on the forums. Read above response.

“Just analyzing wich target audience they advertised the game to”
They were NEVER only targeting the GW1 fanbase, but all types of players.

“Thinking what made GW1 successful”
Oh this is the only way for a game to be successful then. You guys are just pulling random evidence out of your kitties.

“with the poll they did”
Read above. Just more random evidence. Also same people that use the forums.

Can anyone on these forums come up with anything legit?

Its called a statistic evidence and representative of the whole community…

Your vision is not only antidemocratic but quite weak.

If someone lose his time to post on a forum means it cares/cared for the game….more than who just plays and switche when something they dn t like is introduced…..

Simple as that

And aside that you didn t post ANY evidence that themayority is liking the patch….lot of proofs on the opposite everywhere but hey your word is more significant for sure…

I wouldnt remove it I would just make ascended like spvp. You go there its on, you leave its not.

LordByron.8369:

Galen Grey.4709:

how can you tell that more people dislike ascended gear then people like it?
!

with numeric evidence on the forums (too much for the vocal minority excuse).
numeric eveidence from internet
Just analyzing wich target audience they advertised the game to
Thinking what made GW1 successful
with the poll they did
because valuing grinding over skill has proved to be a BAD and surpassed system in mmorpgs at least 10 years ago….despite some mmorpgs still adopt this.

Now those are tools not fault proof for sure but taking all of them becomes quite a proof.

On the other side, is there any evidence most people wanted vertical progression?
I didn t see any.

Imho we shouldn t even discuss this

They just will try to keep most of their old playerbase and attract some more……quite greedy and unfair imho but its only my opinion.

I never said its a minority, I said its no indication that its a whole! even if the people who like this are a miniority it shouldnt mean they should not get content they like! Arenanet did the best thing possible segregating this vertical progression from the horizontal game play! Except for WvW Ascended gear will have 0 impact on anything! and in WvW I still think the impact is entirely neglagable! There are far great element thats unbalance WvW then any armor ever could! greater numbers on your or enemy side are one such obvious element! and its not like a rarity! I think its essentially every engagement in WvW has unbalanced numbers!

I am sure they didnt come to this conclusion based on a random dice rolls! Thing is there is a big contradiction in this game! the bulk of players are totally reward oriented! People refusing to call any map outside of orr as LvL 80 content because it isnt as rewarding is one clear example of that! Its like these people love vertical progression they want the best rewards so having new better rewards is giving them what they want but at the same time they dont want to and are expecting the game to protect them from themselves by actually not providing better rewards! that will stagnate the game however! You simply cant expect that Arenanet allow everyone to spend their entire game life time playing in Orr non stop! And since these people already proved nothing short of better reward will ever attract them away from Orr what do you expect Arenanet to do to keep the game alive? do you really think waiting for these people to grow bored playing the same content over and over is the right solution?

Thing is so many people are assuming Arenanet are choosing vertical progression over horizontal when they really are not! ignoring Ascended gear completely will not prevent you from enjoying absolutely everything the game has to offer including the Progression content itself! They really provided everything to everyone! and if anyone is under server it definitely is people who like progression not people who like horizontal content in my opinion!

I say make ascended items easier to acquire. As of now I find grinding FotM boring, I’d much rather go to personal story or something to get ascended.

Do some players want a game that’s like this?

1st step: Player X achieve max level and finish the story.
2nd step: Player X achieve best stat gears and favourite looks.
3rd step: Player X put the game back into the shelf and only logs on festival events.
Result: Empty maps all over.

I think players forgotten that progression is one important element that creates mmorpg.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_game

LordByron.8369:

Galen Grey.4709:

how can you tell that more people dislike ascended gear then people like it?
!

with numeric evidence on the forums (too much for the vocal minority excuse).
numeric eveidence from internet
Just analyzing wich target audience they advertised the game to
Thinking what made GW1 successful
with the poll they did
because valuing grinding over skill has proved to be a BAD and surpassed system in mmorpgs at least 10 years ago….despite some mmorpgs still adopt this.

Now those are tools not fault proof for sure but taking all of them becomes quite a proof.

On the other side, is there any evidence most people wanted vertical progression?
I didn t see any.

Imho we shouldn t even discuss this

They just will try to keep most of their old playerbase and attract some more……quite greedy and unfair imho but its only my opinion.

speculation, they just started lumping these threads together. I would wager that if you lumped all of the “this game needs more progression” threads that it would be just as large. The GW1 fans wanted this game to cater to their needs first and it isnt, they are infuriated and dont seem to care that anyone elses playability would be stepped on as long as they got the MMO they wanted.

By the way, just the fact that the people are on the forums makes them a particular customer base and in no way a proper sampling as their qualities do not represent the whole. This is not a stratified sample and does not represent a microcosm of the population as a whole.

I also agree with Galen, no one is forcing you to get ascended gear, its not going to impact your game. You’re choosing to let it ruin your experience because you cant stand that someone could be less than a % stronger than you.

Galen Grey.4709:

LordByron.8369:

Galen Grey.4709:

how can you tell that more people dislike ascended gear then people like it?
!

with numeric evidence on the forums (too much for the vocal minority excuse).
numeric eveidence from internet
Just analyzing wich target audience they advertised the game to
Thinking what made GW1 successful
with the poll they did
because valuing grinding over skill has proved to be a BAD and surpassed system in mmorpgs at least 10 years ago….despite some mmorpgs still adopt this.

Now those are tools not fault proof for sure but taking all of them becomes quite a proof.

On the other side, is there any evidence most people wanted vertical progression?
I didn t see any.

Imho we shouldn t even discuss this

They just will try to keep most of their old playerbase and attract some more……quite greedy and unfair imho but its only my opinion.

I never said its a minority, I said its no indication that its a whole! even if the people who like this are a miniority it shouldnt mean they should not get content they like!

Exactly the opposite…
If the minority wanted NO ASCENDED they deserved to play the game they bought…..
If a minority but also majority wats progression (lets call it with his name: GRINDING), well their fault they bought the wrong game.

raenen.5807:

I wouldnt remove it I would just make ascended like spvp. You go there its on, you leave its not.

This is actually a brilliant idea! I like it!

if FoTM worked like sPvP as in you had have you own gear locker and Ascended gear would be something like the armor you get in sPvP only that can be upgraded with infusions but you revert back to your exotic set outside of FoTM… it might solve the WvW issue!

The only possible downside is people who like vertical progression might feel the rest of the game is closed to them as their best gear is locked in FoTM and so thats the only content they can play? I dont know.. anyone who likes vertical progression could possibly tell us their opinion on this idea?

Ditton.3149:

LordByron.8369:

Galen Grey.4709:

how can you tell that more people dislike ascended gear then people like it?
!

with numeric evidence on the forums (too much for the vocal minority excuse).
numeric eveidence from internet
Just analyzing wich target audience they advertised the game to
Thinking what made GW1 successful
with the poll they did
because valuing grinding over skill has proved to be a BAD and surpassed system in mmorpgs at least 10 years ago….despite some mmorpgs still adopt this.

Now those are tools not fault proof for sure but taking all of them becomes quite a proof.

On the other side, is there any evidence most people wanted vertical progression?
I didn t see any.

Imho we shouldn t even discuss this

They just will try to keep most of their old playerbase and attract some more……quite greedy and unfair imho but its only my opinion.

speculation, they just started lumping these threads together. I would wager that if you lumped all of the “this game needs more progression” threads that it would be just as large. The GW1 fans wanted this game to cater to their needs first and it isnt, they are infuriated and dont seem to care that anyone elses playability would be stepped on as long as they got the MMO they wanted.

You are free to PROVE that current proof are not aceptable…

Feel free to post NUMBERS and FACTS….your word is not representative alone you know?

In the meantime they are not speculation…but a LOT of statistical evidences…

The “statistical evidences” you have can be statistically debunked by simply looking at the amount of accounts vs the amount of accounts complaining about Ascended gear.

Not even 1% of those accounts are complaining about it.

LordByron.8369:

Galen Grey.4709:

LordByron.8369:

Galen Grey.4709:

how can you tell that more people dislike ascended gear then people like it?
!

with numeric evidence on the forums (too much for the vocal minority excuse).
numeric eveidence from internet
Just analyzing wich target audience they advertised the game to
Thinking what made GW1 successful
with the poll they did
because valuing grinding over skill has proved to be a BAD and surpassed system in mmorpgs at least 10 years ago….despite some mmorpgs still adopt this.

Now those are tools not fault proof for sure but taking all of them becomes quite a proof.

On the other side, is there any evidence most people wanted vertical progression?
I didn t see any.

Imho we shouldn t even discuss this

They just will try to keep most of their old playerbase and attract some more……quite greedy and unfair imho but its only my opinion.

I never said its a minority, I said its no indication that its a whole! even if the people who like this are a miniority it shouldnt mean they should not get content they like!

Exactly the opposite…
If the minority wanted NO ASCENDED they deserved to play the game they bought…..
If a minority but also majority wats progression (lets call it with his name: GRINDING), well their fault they bought the wrong game.

I am sorry but I think thats really narrow sighted!

Why does being part of the majority mean you get what you bought and being part of the minority mean you get excluded? And remember there is a majority opinion on every single aspect of the game! Majority like PvP, so lets cut out PvE then !
Majority like WvW over sPvP… sPvP gone! Majority like Castle sieges, Cut out the escort missions, supply camps etc…

Majority like being on the invading side of a castle siege.. cool now we end up with a game that is all about breaking down doors and nothing else!

You really cant design a game that is about what the majority of the players want to do ! this is an extreme example of course but where do you cut the line? Ascended gear is not the only mechanic that people dislike!

And worst yet, what if it turns out more people like then there are who dislike it? should Arenanet drop all horizontal progression and focus exclusively on Vertical progression and tell us, sorry next time buy a game that has a majority of players who like what you like?

Do you honestly think any of this would be a good idea?

LordByron.8369:

Ditton.3149:

LordByron.8369:

Galen Grey.4709:

how can you tell that more people dislike ascended gear then people like it?
!

with numeric evidence on the forums (too much for the vocal minority excuse).
numeric eveidence from internet
Just analyzing wich target audience they advertised the game to
Thinking what made GW1 successful
with the poll they did
because valuing grinding over skill has proved to be a BAD and surpassed system in mmorpgs at least 10 years ago….despite some mmorpgs still adopt this.

Now those are tools not fault proof for sure but taking all of them becomes quite a proof.

On the other side, is there any evidence most people wanted vertical progression?
I didn t see any.

Imho we shouldn t even discuss this

They just will try to keep most of their old playerbase and attract some more……quite greedy and unfair imho but its only my opinion.

speculation, they just started lumping these threads together. I would wager that if you lumped all of the “this game needs more progression” threads that it would be just as large. The GW1 fans wanted this game to cater to their needs first and it isnt, they are infuriated and dont seem to care that anyone elses playability would be stepped on as long as they got the MMO they wanted.

You are free to PROVE that current proof are not aceptable…

Feel free to post NUMBERS and FACTS….your word is not representative alone you know?

In the meantime they are not speculation…but a LOT of statistical evidences…

A Lot of statistical evidence? really? like you mean the statistical evidence that we had when shortly after launch many more people were complaining that the game lacks vertical progression resulting in nothing to do at max level you mean? back then more people complained then people saying this was fine and as intended!

Like others said firstly the sample of people on a forum are really small and out of those people the majority engage only when they dont like something!

This might or it might not map to the general population playing the game! but you cannot draw a conclusion either way and it certainly is not a lot of statistical evidence!

Galen Grey.4709:

And since these people already proved nothing short of better reward will ever attract them away from Orr what do you expect Arenanet to do to keep the game alive?

You know what would attract people away from Orr in a heartbeat? The exact same map down to the exact same mobs and events, except that those Risen drop bloods instead of bones as fine mats.

Why do people farm Orr first and other mats later? Because it’s more profitable. More karma, more high level loots and it actually can drop T6 mats.

Why would you farm any place other than Orr or Frostgorge? It’s not significantly easier due to downscaling, the DE rewards are lower, the loot is lower level so you get fewer ectos, the T6 mats cannot drop at all and let’s not talk about getting lodestones.

Don’t take me wrong. I’d love to vary my experience but this game is making a big mistake that GW1 solved already by first making nearly all the world level cap in the first place, and then adding hard mode to change the rest of the world to level cap in the process.

LordByron.8369:

You are free to PROVE that current proof are not aceptable…

Feel free to post NUMBERS and FACTS….your word is not representative alone you know?

In the meantime they are not speculation…but a LOT of statistical evidences…

I’d quite like to see this statistical evidence, if that’s alright.

The damage is done.

The people expecting/wanting pure horizontal progression have left.

Galen Grey.4709:

raenen.5807:

I wouldnt remove it I would just make ascended like spvp. You go there its on, you leave its not.

This is actually a brilliant idea! I like it!

if FoTM worked like sPvP as in you had have you own gear locker and Ascended gear would be something like the armor you get in sPvP only that can be upgraded with infusions but you revert back to your exotic set outside of FoTM… it might solve the WvW issue!

The only possible downside is people who like vertical progression might feel the rest of the game is closed to them as their best gear is locked in FoTM and so thats the only content they can play? I dont know.. anyone who likes vertical progression could possibly tell us their opinion on this idea?

I agree, honestly thought this was what it was going to be. It doesnt bother me either way, but this would be a fine compromise imo.

stof.9341:

Galen Grey.4709:

And since these people already proved nothing short of better reward will ever attract them away from Orr what do you expect Arenanet to do to keep the game alive?

You know what would attract people away from Orr in a heartbeat? The exact same map down to the exact same mobs and events, except that those Risen drop bloods instead of bones as fine mats.

Why do people farm Orr first and other mats later? Because it’s more profitable. More karma, more high level loots and it actually can drop T6 mats.

Why would you farm any place other than Orr or Frostgorge? It’s not significantly easier due to downscaling, the DE rewards are lower, the loot is lower level so you get fewer ectos, the T6 mats cannot drop at all and let’s not talk about getting lodestones.

Don’t take me wrong. I’d love to vary my experience but this game is making a big mistake that GW1 solved already by first making nearly all the world level cap in the first place, and then adding hard mode to change the rest of the world to level cap in the process.

Thats the thing really, doing what you suggest wouldnt solve anything I believe! there will always be the best reward! in your example for a while everyone will farm blood until price falls due to supply and its back to the bones!

The problem is people feeling that nothing short of profit is world playing!

The same problem probably exacted in Gw1 but it was masked underneat instancing!

If I wanted to explore say the old ascalon area I didnt need a group for it so I’d go with my hereos or solo. I had no way of knowing how many people were playing that content as opposed to something more profitable like say UW or even missions like Auspicious Beginnings.

LOCO.1785:

The damage is done.

The people expecting/wanting pure horizontal progression have left.

if they left because of this, they didnt want pure horizontal progression. They wanted to have the best gear without working for it!

pure horizontal progression means you dont care about the gear and Gw2 certainly allows you to do that safely! Wanting the best gear isnt horizintal progression its vertical progression and thats the problem! people seem to want easy vertical progression which is entirely differnet from wanting horizontal progression.

Galen Grey.4709:

stof.9341:

Galen Grey.4709:

And since these people already proved nothing short of better reward will ever attract them away from Orr what do you expect Arenanet to do to keep the game alive?

You know what would attract people away from Orr in a heartbeat? The exact same map down to the exact same mobs and events, except that those Risen drop bloods instead of bones as fine mats.

Why do people farm Orr first and other mats later? Because it’s more profitable. More karma, more high level loots and it actually can drop T6 mats.

Why would you farm any place other than Orr or Frostgorge? It’s not significantly easier due to downscaling, the DE rewards are lower, the loot is lower level so you get fewer ectos, the T6 mats cannot drop at all and let’s not talk about getting lodestones.

Don’t take me wrong. I’d love to vary my experience but this game is making a big mistake that GW1 solved already by first making nearly all the world level cap in the first place, and then adding hard mode to change the rest of the world to level cap in the process.

Thats the thing really, doing what you suggest wouldnt solve anything I believe! there will always be the best reward! in your example for a while everyone will farm blood until price falls due to supply and its back to the bones!

The problem is people feeling that nothing short of profit is world playing!

The same problem probably exacted in Gw1 but it was masked underneat instancing

Yet it’s better to have 20 maps alternating giving the best rewards depending on market situation that just one. You cannot make it perfect but that shouldn’t be a reason to refuse improvements on the pretext that they aren’t the ultimate solution.

Galen Grey.4709:

LOCO.1785:

The damage is done.

The people expecting/wanting pure horizontal progression have left.

if they left because of this, they didnt want pure horizontal progression. They wanted to have the best gear without working for it!

pure horizontal progression means you dont care about the gear and Gw2 certainly allows you to do that safely! Wanting the best gear isnt horizintal progression its vertical progression and thats the problem! people seem to want easy vertical progression which is entirely differnet from wanting horizontal progression.

This. But I add that people don’t know what they want. When they have easy vertical progression then they ll be bored within a day or 2 and stop playing anyway.

lordkrall.7241:

The “statistical evidences” you have can be statistically debunked by simply looking at the amount of accounts vs the amount of accounts complaining about Ascended gear.

Not even 1% of those accounts are complaining about it.

Here is one for you then:

1) there are more people complaining than praising on the forums.
2) even less than the “not even 1% of those accounts” are praising it
3) I have statistically proved there are more people against than for ascended gear.

See? That distorted logic of yours can be used for anything! We also just proved that over 98% of these people do not think!

And you know what? Bots do not think either! That must mean 98% of all GW2 accounts have actually been played by bots!

I may have taken it a bit too far, but hopefully you get the idea: if you take one ball out of a bag of 10 colored balls, and observe it’s green, you can’t conclude the 9 other balls are all red.

stof.9341:

Galen Grey.4709:

stof.9341:

Galen Grey.4709:

And since these people already proved nothing short of better reward will ever attract them away from Orr what do you expect Arenanet to do to keep the game alive?

You know what would attract people away from Orr in a heartbeat? The exact same map down to the exact same mobs and events, except that those Risen drop bloods instead of bones as fine mats.

Why do people farm Orr first and other mats later? Because it’s more profitable. More karma, more high level loots and it actually can drop T6 mats.

Why would you farm any place other than Orr or Frostgorge? It’s not significantly easier due to downscaling, the DE rewards are lower, the loot is lower level so you get fewer ectos, the T6 mats cannot drop at all and let’s not talk about getting lodestones.

Don’t take me wrong. I’d love to vary my experience but this game is making a big mistake that GW1 solved already by first making nearly all the world level cap in the first place, and then adding hard mode to change the rest of the world to level cap in the process.

Thats the thing really, doing what you suggest wouldnt solve anything I believe! there will always be the best reward! in your example for a while everyone will farm blood until price falls due to supply and its back to the bones!

The problem is people feeling that nothing short of profit is world playing!

The same problem probably exacted in Gw1 but it was masked underneat instancing

Yet it’s better to have 20 maps alternating giving the best rewards depending on market situation that just one. You cannot make it perfect but that shouldn’t be a reason to refuse improvements on the pretext that they aren’t the ultimate solution.

I am convinced it wouldnt work! I personally found starter areas to be quite profitable and I think arenanet agreed cause in the last patch they reduced the reward you get from completing dynamic events in the 1 – 15 zone range! yet few would even consider playing there for it was still percieved that Orr is a lot more profitable besides in short term order all markets will end up saturated! if you open every map for a particular fine ingerdient you’ll have people spreading all over the place in the short them sure, saturate the market, prices drop, everyone back in orr because events there reward better. If you’re lucky in time the cycle will repeat but the market saturation could last a long time! Worst yet remember the market is global so the spreading around might also not really happen as different servers might congrigate in different zones farming differnet fine materials saturating the market of all fine material even if if in every server players would be playing in one zone!

I am certainly not saying they shouldnt try to do something to address it, I am just afaid nothing they do can work as this seems more like a social issue rather then a game mechanic issue

I believe you missed the point of my post Primal.
I simply commented on LordByrons posts about how he had “statistical evidences” about how most people are unhappy.

Statistically speaking most people are not unhappy, based on the information we have. (Silence usually equals consent)

Galen Grey.4709:

LOCO.1785:

The damage is done.

The people expecting/wanting pure horizontal progression have left.

if they left because of this, they didnt want pure horizontal progression. They wanted to have the best gear without working for it!

pure horizontal progression means you dont care about the gear and Gw2 certainly allows you to do that safely! Wanting the best gear isnt horizintal progression its vertical progression and thats the problem! people seem to want easy vertical progression which is entirely differnet from wanting horizontal progression.

I know several horizontal progression focused players and this non-controversy barely registered to them. A lot of what they saw was other people trying to sell them the hysteria on how bad the new content was.

I’ve been meaning to make a joke video where it shows lion’s arch the day before the patch… Then some clips of the doomsaying about how broken GW2 is now thanks to ascended gear… Then back to peaceful lion’s arch several days after the patch.

99.9% (since this thread is made of made up statistics, might as well join in) of horizontal content is untouched by ascended gear. Horizontal players don’t give a kitten. <—- actual kitten for dramatic effect because who doesn’t love kitties…

Galen Grey.4709:

if they left because of this, they didnt want pure horizontal progression. They wanted to have the best gear without working for it!

pure horizontal progression means you dont care about the gear and Gw2 certainly allows you to do that safely! Wanting the best gear isnt horizintal progression its vertical progression and thats the problem! people seem to want easy vertical progression which is entirely differnet from wanting horizontal progression.

Let me clarify some things: People left because they wanted horizontal progression, and Anet added vertical progression, which is fundamentaly incompatible with horizontal progression. The point of vertical progression is that you always have to increase the stats, while horizontal means you want gear mainly because of its look and should not be penalized for it. Right now, someone who doesn’t like ascended items would still have to farm it, or be (slightly, I agree) inferior stats wise.

In the short run, I agree the difference stats-wise is little but in the long run you’ll run into this: The penalty for not farming “optimal” ( in a vertical progression way" ) gear will become large enough that 1) new content will be too hard to clear with exotics or 2) new content will be too easy to clear with top tier gear

It’s a matter of subjectivity / objectivity.

Horizontal progression is when you want subjectively better gear that are objectively as good as any gear (same stats, hence horizontal)

Vertical progression is when you want gear because it’s objectively better.

Those in favor of horizontal progression don’t want the new objectively better gear for free, they are against the very idea of better gear, especially when it takes a huge time to get (aka not achievable by everybody, thus creating inequality among players), without any guarantee there won’t be a new tier afterward (aka gear threadmill and power creep).

Exotics were easy to obtain for some players, hard for others, but still reasonable.
Ascended are a bit harder to get for some, and quite overwhelming for others (especially knowing you’ll have to get weapons armors earrings and amulet when it comes out)

The same was true for legendaries, but these had the exact same stats as exotics (=> you’re not penalized for not getting one).

TL, DR:

1)Horizontal doesn’t mean you don’t want the best gear, it means you want a gear cap.

2)Vertical means you don’t want a gear cap, since you can’t progress vertically if there is a gear cap.

3) There is no such thing as diagonal progression. you either have or have not a gear cap.

Alice.8694:

Galen Grey.4709:

LOCO.1785:

The damage is done.

The people expecting/wanting pure horizontal progression have left.

if they left because of this, they didnt want pure horizontal progression. They wanted to have the best gear without working for it!

pure horizontal progression means you dont care about the gear and Gw2 certainly allows you to do that safely! Wanting the best gear isnt horizintal progression its vertical progression and thats the problem! people seem to want easy vertical progression which is entirely differnet from wanting horizontal progression.

I know several horizontal progression focused players and this non-controversy barely registered to them. A lot of what they saw was other people trying to sell them the hysteria on how bad the new content was.

I’ve been meaning to make a joke video where it shows lion’s arch the day before the patch… Then some clips of the doomsaying about how broken GW2 is now thanks to ascended gear… Then back to peaceful lion’s arch several days after the patch.

99.9% (since this thread is made of made up statistics, might as well join in) of horizontal content is untouched by ascended gear. Horizontal players don’t give a kitten. <—- actual kitten for dramatic effect because who doesn’t love kitties…

You mean, you mean I am not the only horizontal player trying to wonder why its such a big issue to simply ignore ascended gear and keep enjoying exploring the game! and all the amazing horizontal content!

Thank all the kittens thats good to hear ! <- actual kittens

Thanks Alice really feel less alien now

Primal.9513:

lordkrall.7241:

The “statistical evidences” you have can be statistically debunked by simply looking at the amount of accounts vs the amount of accounts complaining about Ascended gear.

Not even 1% of those accounts are complaining about it.

Here is one for you then:

1) there are more people complaining than praising on the forums.
2) even less than the “not even 1% of those accounts” are praising it
3) I have statistically proved there are more people against than for ascended gear.

See? That distorted logic of yours can be used for anything! We also just proved that over 98% of these people do not think!

And you know what? Bots do not think either! That must mean 98% of all GW2 accounts have actually been played by bots!

I may have taken it a bit too far, but hopefully you get the idea: if you take one ball out of a bag of 10 colored balls, and observe it’s green, you can’t conclude the 9 other balls are all red.

The thing about good statistical evidence is that it’s difficult to debunk. So far, I’ve yet to see any statistics that really support either side of the ‘Ascended/FotM made people leave’ debate, largely because actually gathering meaningful statistics related to the issue is more complex than just looking at the numbers of players in the game/in a server/on the forum. It’s a lot of warm air and important-sounding words with little evidence – all testimony and no proof.

proxy.7963:

The thing about good statistical evidence is that it’s difficult to debunk. So far, I’ve yet to see any statistics that really support either side of the ‘Ascended/FotM made people leave’ debate, largely because actually gathering meaningful statistics related to the issue is more complex than just looking at the numbers of players in the game/in a server/on the forum. It’s a lot of warm air and important-sounding words with little evidence – all testimony and no proof.

It’s almost silly that this needs to be said… +1

To Alice and Galen Grey, since you want to know why some of us can’t simply ignore the ascended gear, I’ll invite you to read my previous post in this thread where I try to explain it.

(basically a shameless bump, but I know how things tend to be missed if it’s not the first or last post of a thread.)

Primal.9513:

if they left because of this, they didnt want pure horizontal progression. They wanted to have the best gear without working for it!

People left because they where bored, other people left because PvP was not satisfying them and other people left because guilds had more meaning in other games and their guild had more power there. People leave for different reasons. I have no statistical information for any of it, but neither do people who say “all people wanted…horizontal progression”. I came for the new content, the in-depth story GW usually provides and pvp / pve separation. People are insanely playing the fractals, their behavior seems to show they love them, but again that is no proof. It could be that they feel like they have to.

Primal.9513:

To Alice and Galen Grey, since you want to know why some of us can’t simply ignore the ascended gear, I’ll invite you to read my previous post in this thread where I try to explain it.

(basically a shameless bump, but I know how things tend to be missed if it’s not the first or last post of a thread.)

I did read your post but its just too speculative to answer!

I have no crystal ball I cannot say if new release content will be doable using anything other then ascended ! that being said current trend would say that will not be the case? why because currently there is no content that requires Exotic, Most content if not all you can ever do without any armor what so ever! (still havent tried Dungeons with no armor, didnt manage to convince my guild to let me try it … yet… , but I tried LvL 80 Dynamic events, tried WvW player vs player and tried soloing WvW dynamic events with no armor, no accessories for the most part I had no problems but didnt manage to take supply depots solo with no armor.) This doesnt mean the trend will keep hence why I said I cant talk about the future but right now you dont need any top tier armor at all to play everything!

Primal.9513:

snip
TL, DR:

1)Horizontal doesn’t mean you don’t want the best gear, it means you want a gear cap.

2)Vertical means you don’t want a gear cap, since you can’t progress vertically if there is a gear cap.

3) There is no such thing as diagonal progression. you either have or have not a gear cap.

Since you asked me directly to address your points I shall…

1) Incorrect and I’m sure most horizontal progression focused players will tell you this. Essentially you are attempting to tell another person what they are thinking and this is wrong. I have asked a few horizontal progressionists their opinions because they happen to be good friends of mine.
I’ll have to wait till their online to get their permission to post the conversations but the main jist of what they said didn’t have anything to do with a gear cap. They fundamentally don’t care about gear.

What they did all say (all five of them) is that they want to experience all of the content without being forced into vertical progression. And they all agree that the game completely and utterly, hands down accomplishes this. They’ve even been with me in a few fractal runs. Some of them aren’t even 80 yet and they still got to experience the content without having to succumb to deliberate vertical progression. And personally I agree with them.

2) Incorrect and I’ll explain why in point 3.

3) The game itself is diagonal progression. All the content is horizontal yet within that horizontal progression there is subtle vertical progression: Leveling, item tiers, skills to unlock. The game itself proves you wrong.

In short having a gear cap isn’t synonymous with horizontal progression. Nor does having one mean there can be no vertical progression. Vertical progression has always been present within the game and it is rather absurd to demand that because the game is released that they must not continue to add some within the content updates along side the horizontal progression.

And as a side note: Technically there is still a gear cap in place. Ascended is simply the new cap and this will be more obvious once all the ascended slots have been released.