Guild Wars 2

Just reached level 80 as Guardian and I found out that I’m usually the weakest in my group. I mean, I can provide great support, and all my buffs affect my allies, but after we are all buffed, I’m weakest, since Guardian’s stats are the lowest and I don’t gain any real benefit myself from buffing others (Altruistic Healing is too weak). Guardians rely on virtues/buffs, but all my buffs are aoe and this, even if it makes Guardians important, also makes them weaker compared to nearby allies.

ANet said this game has no fixed roles. Well, Guardian seems just a giant buffer to me at the moment.

- We can’t be ranged (scepter aa sucks and staff is not really ranged)
- We can’t really be a dps (can’t be compared to mesmer or other classes with guardian buffs, also in pvp)
- We can’t be the better tank (compare it to a warrior with guardian buffs).

Atm the Guardian only shines as a support class. Not what I wanted from GW2.

In my group, we almost have the same equips (my equip is actually a little bit better) and I have the highest base stats (power, precision, ..), but when it comes to actual stats, i’m the weakest (got less attack, armor, health then my necro friend, that has lower power/vitality… i have almost half hp and no death shroud, lol).

“But Guardians have a lot of aegis and damage mitigation!”
So have my party members (or every nearby ally): they get all my aegis/protect/regen/might/retaliation escept from “save yourself”.
They can have all Guardian buffs from a Guardian, plus their own.
Unfortunately a Guardian gains nothing from another Guardian, because buffs do not stack (not even burning does, to be honest).

Of course i don’t mind buffing others. i’ma a Guardian, I must protect my friends, but I can’t just be a buffer and watch my allies do all the damage or the tanking job cause they have my buffs+better stats+other means to survive (come on… death shroud, minions, illusion, …)

My suggestion is to give Guardian some more bonuses when he/she gives buffs to others, or higher stats (the health is just too low, it’s ridicuolus).
I’m already using a build that allows me to gain hp for each buff I add on me or allies, that is great (i give aoe might each time a crit, lol), but the hp given is just too low (72 hp for each buff at the moment).

Please, give us another passive virtue with some more unique bonuses or higher stats.
Give us different (and not underpowered) roles.

Or, if you want an easy solution, make Altruistic Healing stronger.

Thanks.

So what are you asking? Something that will make you a great support class AND the highest DPS at the same time?

i do agree that guards need a buff but i do fine with DPS. the problem comes in that at level 80 a guard has like 12k hp where a warrior has like 30k.

Tom Gore.4035:

So what are you asking? Something that will make you a great support class AND the highest DPS at the same time?

Im pretty sure he doesnt mean this. He feels pigeonholed into the support role. He would like guardians to have the option to be to be the best tank or dps. Not at the same time.

I myself have not played my guardian enough at the top lvl to decide. He is lvl 80 but ive only done the story mode dungeons once each.

Guardians are one of the best professions in the game right now.

Don’t compare your damage to a Warrior’s. Warriors are far above what I think is intended right now. Guardians can do comparable damage to most other professions, possibly better than Mesmers, and also provide amazing support and control options.

Spawn.7014:

i do agree that guards need a buff but i do fine with DPS. the problem comes in that at level 80 a guard has like 12k hp where a warrior has like 30k.

Guardians do share the lowest health pool with Elementalists and Thieves, but you’re far overstating how much health Warriors have, at least if we’re talking about PvE.

Guardians have so much active survivability that they don’t really need huge health pools to survive. They’re just not made to soak damage—they’re made to use their plethora of blocks and reflects to just not take damage in the first place.

Tom Gore.4035, i’m actually asking for more hp and/or a little bit more reward when buffing and, please, a DECENT ranged weapon. Just try to play WvW as guardian (no cripple, just 1 gap closing ability per weapon, no ranged weapons, no escape means).
At the moment guardian is also the only class that can’t be ranged. It’s unfair.

Also I personally find ridiculous that a necromancer has 2x times guardian’s hp PLUS death shroud.

Those little improvements will not make guardian OP, but they’d give it more options, not just a underpowered dps or a buffing machine, but also a solid dps, a tank and a ranged dps/buffer.

Lot of people are suggesting to give guardians a bow. There is an easier solution. Just make scepter auto attack more like the bow auto attack, and maybe increase staff auto attack range.

Come on, warriors can use a rifle and have twice our hp.
Just imagine guardian+warrior versus 2 guardians.

Agent Noun.7350, I also stated that guardians have a lot of buffs to mitigate damage or absorb it, but please note that every ally close to the guardian benefits from those buffs, wile a guardian close to another one doesn’t (because they don’t stack).
After tha guardian has buffed him/herself and nearby allies, the guardian is weaker compared to them.

Just another question. Have you ever heard of a pro guardian or a good guardian build that uses scepter (the only “ranged” we have) as main weapon?

Also, in a party where you have a warrior and a guardian, wich one would you pick to be the tank? unless the warrior has a frail dps build, i’d pick him, since the guardian can buff the warrior and the warrion has his own damage mitigation, dps and higher stats (also double hp and ranged weapons)

Kidel.2057:

Also I personally find ridiculous that a necromancer has 2x times guardian’s hp PLUS death shroud.

Seriously? Do necros have that much hp? I`m sitting at about 15k hp atm. I haven`t experimented with any other classes besides a warrior to lvl 4 or so. Are you sure this is correct?

[quote=152857;Kidel.2057:][quote=153247;Kidel.2057:]

I don’t have a vit build, but I still have more vit then my necro friend and I have 13.5k hp, while she has 20k hp AND death shroud.

You can also test it yourself with a build editor.

Guardian has almost the lowest hp in this game because of the “damage mitigation” (but why the hell should I need a damage mitigation if I have DOUBLE hp? No need to say that every class can benefit from the same damage mitigation if a guardian is nearby, because every active guardian buff is aoe, even from traits)

Necros do have a large HP pool. But guardians have Aegis, and constant regen, and many other options. Oh, and heavy armor. I think they are okish in current balance. If we had the same HPs as necros, or warriors then we would be overpowered.

I do agree that there should be more rewards for buffing. So we can get gold medals even when buffing, and loot bags in WvW.

I tank much better than other warriors in dungeons. Mace/focus gives us incredible tanking powers. Sure, our damage suffers, but I almost never go down.

I agree our range options kind of suck (scepter is pretty lackluster, and staff is a purely support weapon). We could use a scepter buff, but we are ok overall.

Kal.2376, unfortunately Guardians armor stat is low too (with the same toughness), even if I wear heavy armor I still have almost the same armor stat as my necro friend. Total damage you can sustain is HP*Armor, and this is way lower on a guardian compared to warrior or necro.

Also Aegis can mitigate 3-4 hits every 40 seconds, that is not so much compared to death shroud, and please get my point: almost every Aegis you put is AOE, wich means that every class can benefit from you

Again, I think is great that guardian is so helpful, but that’s all it can do.
Once you Aegis all your group, wich one is stronger and can tank or dps? Having all guardian’s aegis, the other classes result stronger.

Example: death shroud is not aoe. only the necro benefits from it. So a guardian can only have aegis, while a necro can have guardian’s aegis + death shroud.

The same can be said with every class. While 2 guardians don’t really benefit from each other, cause burn and aegis don’t stack in intensity.

Also all a warrior needs to tank is a guardian, while you have to give up on damage using mace+focus (still being inferior to warriors and tank necros imo, since they can benefit from your buffs).

Happy you agree on your lack of options.
At the moment, all we can do is buff. Once the party is buffed, the guardian is the weakest class and can’t even dps properly compared to some other classes.
We can’t even go ranged.

Kidel.2057:

Kal.2376, unfortunately Guardians armor stat is low too (with the same toughness), even if I wear heavy armor I still have almost the same armor stat as my necro friend. Total damage you can sustain is HP*Armor, and this is way lower on a guardian compared to warrior or necro.

Also Aegis can mitigate 3-4 hits every 40 seconds, that is not so much compared to death shroud, and please get my point: almost every Aegis you put is AOE, wich means that every class can benefit from you

Again, I think is great that guardian is so helpful, but that’s all it can do.
Once you Aegis all your group, wich one is stronger and can tank or dps? Having all guardian’s aegis, the other classes result stronger.

Example: death shroud is not aoe. only the necro benefits from it. So a guardian can only have aegis, while a necro can have guardian’s aegis + death shroud.

The same can be said with every class. While 2 guardians don’t really benefit from each other, cause burn and aegis don’t stack in intensity.

So the guardian is a GOD in a group, but you want him to be a GOD soloing as well… That’s the part I do not get. The guardian is decent solo. I can kill necromancers with their deathshroud, I can kill warriors as well. I can do that when soloing (sure, I die as well, part of life). And when in a group, I give immense group buffs.

I kind of get what you mean, but since the abilities we have do affect the whole party (we cannot change it to just affect us), then we have to live with the fact that the guardian is mostly a support class.

So I agree the guardian is designed for better support and a bit less soling power. I think that is fine though. Necro is designed for less support, and more survivability. Thief is designed for less support. less survivability, and more attack power. I still think they are fine… For the people that want to play support

No, that’s not my point. I personally think that guardian is a great solo class.
I’m saying that in a group, the guardian gains the same benefits he has in solo, while the others gain guardian’s benefits. I think it’s great, but somehow that makes the guardian basically a supporter.

- We have lower hp then almost every class (that, again, gains our same damage mitigation, plus their own ways).
- We can’t be ranged.
- We are not the best dps and as pure melee dps we are too frail compared to others.
- We can’t reach running enemies (come on, rangers have a AOE RANGED skill that cripples).

I’m just saying I’d like the guardian to get more options. What I’m suggesting is not difficult to implement and not unreasonably overpowered (and also doesn’t change the way guardian is played as solo class). Power up altruistic healing (heals for each buff on allies, but at the moment it’s kinda meh) and/or give a virtue (only passive) that raises guardian stats when it lays buffs on allies, so that we are somehow strong as a player buffed by a guardian (since our stats are lower) and 2 guardians can benefit from buffing each other.

And also, please, a ranged weapon.

Kal.2376:

I still think they are fine… For the people that want to play support

That’s it. Unfortunately ANet said that in guild wars 2 every class can aim for every role. Guardian only shines as a boon support class.

Even our elite skills prove that, since the only decent one is tome of courage.

The problem is that if they change the guardian to be less support, with more striking power and survivability, you’ll end up with something similar to a warrior…. Anet may have cornered themselves with the warrior and guardian designs a bit…

Guardian is in need of a buff, i feel like a buff totem currently.

My main is my 80 Guardian and let me start by saying I have logged over 325 hours on him alone, in pve and pvp. Guardian is incredibly fun to play, and I can fill any role just fine whether it be support in WvW, or tank in instances, or DPS for dynamic events…I can do everything just fine.

While it’s true, we have the lowest stats out of any class, there is good reason. Lets take a look at instancing first.
When I play DPS (20/25/20/0/5 greatsword), I can EASILY out damage the entire group, and it is a noticeable difference, and most of that damage is AOE. Along with that, I am buffing the rest of the group with heals/aegis/and burn damage. I have yet to lose to someone in DPS in an instance, aside from the random necro or warrior, but those still rarely beat me.

When I support/tank in instances on my guardian (0/0/30/30/10 shield/mace – greatsword) I will almost never die. Even with my low HP, I can take the largest beating out of any class. Sure, I might get downed a few times on a boss fight, but my group can get through entire boss fights without a SINGLE scratch on anyone but me. All you need to do is figure out when to time your blocks and damage mitigation and heals and you will be perfectly fine, you can even tank better than that 30k hp warrior.

Now, I wont even talk about PvP because after 3v1/4v1’ing people numerous times, they eventually just decide to run away from me instead of fighting me with their superior numbers. So I think you get the point there.

Moral of the story is, if you play Guardian right, you can fill any role just fine, you just have to learn your rotations and timing. If we increased guardian stats, they would be far too op, and no one wants that. They are already one of the strongest classes out there, and I don’t think they need a single change (aside from bugs or whatever, I have not encountered any yet though.)

Generalchowder.1472:

My main is my 80 Guardian and let me start by saying I have logged over 325 hours on him alone, in pve and pvp. Guardian is incredibly fun to play, and I can fill any role just fine whether it be support in WvW, or tank in instances, or DPS for dynamic events…I can do everything just fine.

While it’s true, we have the lowest stats out of any class, there is good reason. Lets take a look at instancing first.
When I play DPS (20/25/20/0/5 greatsword), I can EASILY out damage the entire group, and it is a noticeable difference, and most of that damage is AOE. Along with that, I am buffing the rest of the group with heals/aegis/and burn damage. I have yet to lose to someone in DPS in an instance, aside from the random necro or warrior, but those still rarely beat me.

When I support/tank in instances on my guardian (0/0/30/30/10 shield/mace – greatsword) I will almost never die. Even with my low HP, I can take the largest beating out of any class. Sure, I might get downed a few times on a boss fight, but my group can get through entire boss fights without a SINGLE scratch on anyone but me. All you need to do is figure out when to time your blocks and damage mitigation and heals and you will be perfectly fine, you can even tank better than that 30k hp warrior.

Now, I wont even talk about PvP because after 3v1/4v1’ing people numerous times, they eventually just decide to run away from me instead of fighting me with their superior numbers. So I think you get the point there.

Moral of the story is, if you play Guardian right, you can fill any role just fine, you just have to learn your rotations and timing. If we increased guardian stats, they would be far too op, and no one wants that. They are already one of the strongest classes out there, and I don’t think they need a single change (aside from bugs or whatever, I have not encountered any yet though.)

Play a guardian right? Anet said we will be able to play whatever way we want and not be forced to play “cookie cutter” setups to be effective.
And its impossible to compare DPS without a DPS meter.

@ Malediktus

Sorry, let me clarify what I meant by “play a guardian right.”

I did not mean a cookie-cutter spec, I just meant that if you learn when to dodge, when to change weapons, when to back off, when to heal, etc, you will find that you can survive just about anything. And we all know that the longer you stay alive, the longer you buff your allies, DPS enemies, CC, etc.

Just like any class can which knows their abilities. But some classes can do it better.

Malediktus.9250:

Just like any class can which knows their abilities. But some classes can do it better.

Guardian is notoriously better to do what he described in comparison to pretty much any profession.

Tom Gore.4035:

So what are you asking? Something that will make you a great support class AND the highest DPS at the same time?

cough, mesmer,necromancer, engineer, ele, cough

Kal.2376:

The problem is that if they change the guardian to be less support, with more striking power and survivability, you’ll end up with something similar to a warrior…. Anet may have cornered themselves with the warrior and guardian designs a bit…

I don’t want guardian to be less focused on support. I just want to get some advantages by supporting others that makes tha guardian similar to another random class buffed by a guardian.

the equation is very simple.
at the moment it is like:
guardian + guardian buffs < random class + guardian buffs

i want it to be:
guardian + guardian buffs + x = random class + guardian buffs

where x = random class – guardian

so the difference in stats between any class and the underpowered guardian without buffs.

obviously giving the guardian the stats of a warrior all the time will make it extremely overpowered, so I’m NOT suggesting this.
As I said I’d like the stat or healing bonus to be a REWARD for buffing OTHERS, so in a group the guardian can be more similar to other classes in term of stats.

Generalchowder.1472:

@ Malediktus

Sorry, let me clarify what I meant by “play a guardian right.”

I did not mean a cookie-cutter spec, I just meant that if you learn when to dodge, when to change weapons, when to back off, when to heal, etc, you will find that you can survive just about anything. And we all know that the longer you stay alive, the longer you buff your allies, DPS enemies, CC, etc.

Do you understand that you can say the same about every class? Take a necromancer, with 4 minions, huge hp pool, a lot of skills to heal, a lot of ranged weapons and death shroud. I’m sure it’s easier with it, but you probably never tried. The funniest part is that with the litch form a necro doubles his/her hp, going around 50k hp at level 80.

Also we are not saying that the guardian is a weak piece of dirt, we are saying that close to a guardian, every class is superior to it (except another guardian, of course).

Are you trying to say that your guardian in better than a warrior with your buffs? I don’t think so. It’s simply impossible since all the mitigation/power of a guardian comes from boons, and almost every guardian boon is applied to nearby players.

And don’t talk abour WvW, where guardians can ONLY be a support class (no escape means, no cripple, no ranged).

Kidel.2057:

lots of good stuff

That’s where the problem is… The formula has to be:

Guardian + buffs = non-guardian (without buffs)

If that is not so, then the guardian is overpowered… Unfortunately, that automatically makes:

Guardian + buffs < non-guardian + buffs

The problem is that if we as just as strong as other classes without using our buffs, then once we use them, it would put us over the top.

The only thing I can think of, is that the more people we buff, the stronger we get (buffer bonus?), so we can get as strong as non-guardians buffed (when partying with them), but just as strong as them when solo… Still, I’m sure that would bring all kind of other problems as well…

Kal.2376:

The only thing I can think of, is that the more people we buff, the stronger we get (buffer bonus?), so we can get as strong as non-guardians buffed (when partying with them), but just as strong as them when solo…

That’s exactly what I’m trying to say from my first post xD

At the moment the only reward we can get from buffs is the trait Altruistic Healing, but it’s kind of meh…

And don’t forget a ranged weapon. Just putting the trident auto attack on the scepter would be an improvement (maybe keeping the attack power of the scepter, because trident attack sucks), instead of the stupid floating ball that I could surpass running without swiftness.

Kidel.2057:

Kal.2376:

The only thing I can think of, is that the more people we buff, the stronger we get (buffer bonus?), so we can get as strong as non-guardians buffed (when partying with them), but just as strong as them when solo…

That’s exactly what I’m trying to say from my first post xD

At the moment the only reward we can get from buffs is the trait Altruistic Healing, but it’s kind of meh…

And don’t forget a ranged weapon. Just putting the trident auto attack on the scepter would be an improvement (maybe keeping the attack power of the scepter, because trident attack sucks), instead of the stupid floating ball that I could surpass running without swiftness.

Hehe, yeah, sorry, focused on the first part of your post… In that case, I agree. A slight increase to the bonuses, or other passives that depend on people buffed could help.

The only solution that comes to my mind to make sure that the guardian doesn’t become a simple cleric when playing in a group.

80 Silvari Guardian

Our Elites suck. Period. They last 20 seconds and one knock down gives up most of that time.

Our stats suck. In general we’re bottom of the line and exist only to make other classes more effective than they already are.

My job in dungeons? Rez anyone who falls. Shout often. Create light combo fields.

My job is sPvP run to point and stand on it, if its attacked hold out long enough for a real class to come prevent the enemy capture with my buffs on them.

WvWvW? I make people run faster with a staff and carry supplies and Rez as much as possible.

Our traits have no synergy

• Zeal
  Power with Condition Duration Focused on Greatsword or spirit weapons…

• Radiance
  Precision with Condition Damage Focused on 1 handed and spaming Justice

Now what really makes no sense

• Valor
  Toughness and Critical damage which makes Critical builds 1 handed and shields a necessity. If I want to heal myself I have to have allies nearby to give boons to and that is a really weak heal since there are now no more points left to skill up my healing.

• Honor
  Increase Vitality and Healing
  Gain 1 second of vigor when you critical…which there isn’t many points left for.
  Two handed weapon trait is here for 20% cooldown reduction.
  Which is now Staff focused because the Staff has the heals on it.

• Virtues
  Faster cooldown on Virtues and longer boon durations…shout and F2 F3 in a group

Basically every class is capable of faster single target dps and some even have AoEs
Guardians don’t really have that.

Necros are Tanky/DPS
Warriors are Tanky/DPS
Thieves are nasty
Mez are nasty
Ele are nasty
to deal with as a Guardian.

Kidel.2057:

Do you understand that you can say the same about every class? Take a necromancer, with 4 minions, huge hp pool, a lot of skills to heal, a lot of ranged weapons and death shroud. I’m sure it’s easier with it, but you probably never tried. The funniest part is that with the litch form a necro doubles his/her hp, going around 50k hp at level 80.

Also we are not saying that the guardian is a weak piece of dirt, we are saying that close to a guardian, every class is superior to it (except another guardian, of course).

Are you trying to say that your guardian in better than a warrior with your buffs? I don’t think so. It’s simply impossible since all the mitigation/power of a guardian comes from boons, and almost every guardian boon is applied to nearby players.

And don’t talk abour WvW, where guardians can ONLY be a support class (no escape means, no cripple, no ranged).

You obviously don’t read well, but I will give up on that point because you seem to be just another ignorant person when it comes to that. So, I will move on to another point that you will hopefully be able to understand. First, guardians are nowhere near the worst class. I, as well as most people I have talked to, would classify them as one of the top 3, if not 5.

As for the who is a better tank, you better believe I’m saying a guardian is better than a warrior. You are forgetting that we have passive abilities on our spells which help only us, and are not applied to our allies. Sure, a lot of our abilities that help us tank get applied to our allies, but we aren’t using those while we DPS or whatever else we are doing. For instance, if you are DPSing an instance with a warrior tank, you aren’t going to have a shield/mace out giving him healing, protection, and aegis are you? If so, I understand why you say your DPS sucks.

At any rate, you obviously failed to read what I wrote about PvP as well. You must be running around with a hammer, or naked, or something…but obviously you don’t know how to make it work. I constantly kill 3-4 people at a time. I will almost always charge groups of enemies with no fear, because I know I can handle multiple enemies. No escapes? You must never have gotten Judge’s Intervention, or use your #4 greatsword ability. Or your multiple snares/knockdowns. Or, your stun removals/speed buffs. I get away from just about any fight that I need to…by using my abilities. Sure, if you just try to run without using abilities you will be killed every time.

One thing I will certainly agree with you on though, our ranged sucks.

I thought it was a little obvious in the class trailer that Guardian would be some form of a support type class?

Azguard.1254:

I thought it was a little obvious in the class trailer that Guardian would be some form of a support type class?

I think the point is they’re is a line between useful and ONLY support.

Are you kitting me? Guardians that want a survivability buff? Is tanking 3 guys at the same time not enough? Seriously, theirs a reason why guardians are considered one of the top tier pvp classes.

actually talking about roles in party istances.

also guardian the top tier pvp class? what the hell are you talking about?
we don’t even have a ranged weapon or a way to cripple enemies. you can’t base a reasoning on just 1 experience (maybe against weak players).

not mentioning that we are not rewarded by any loot for the help given in wvw.

Mayama.1854:

Are you kitting me? Guardians that want a survivability buff? Is tanking 3 guys at the same time not enough? Seriously, theirs a reason why guardians are considered one of the top tier pvp classes.

not everyone cares about sPvP

I care and I believe that guardians have limitations in pvp too.

However I’m more concerned about the lack of ranged attacks (for wvw) and the very low stats that force guardians to be buffers/healers in party istances.

Have you tried autistic Zeal and Resilience trait builds that don’t really benefit the party but rather supplement DPS and personal passive skills? You know, forgoing buffing your teammates?

The guardian is almost perfectly fine. If you’re having problems, then you’re playing it wrong. Asking for buffs is ridiculous.

I’m not playing wrong, since I’ve had no problems reaching level 80 and surviving istances. I’m just saying that other classes are stronger, not that guardian is weak, lol.

you failed to get the point of the thread.

simply making buffs and burning stackable would probably fix this issue, because it would allow guardians to support each other, making the lack of HP really worthy. Also fixing scepter autoattack and giving us the hp of a ranger won’t hurt.

Rangers deal kittenloads of damage using the shortbow (1200 range, fastest autoattack in the game), has 2 immortal pets and they have MORE HP THEN A GUARDIAN (50% more with the same vit).

I have a ranger on my second character slot, and I feel like I don’t need hp at all. The say “guardians have low hp because of damage mitigation” (= 1 aegis every 30 seconds, lol). As ranger I’m never touched at all by my opponent. And there is also the pet (actually 2 pets), HUGE dps and (that’s funny) a ranger can be also buffed by another guardian.
There is no need to talk about pvp, right? Can attack at infinite distance controlling the pet (the only “ally” that you can give orders to), can cripple, can attack from distance, can attack from a mountain a guardian can’t even reach.

AND YET RANGERS HAVE 50% MORE HP THEN A GUARDIAN.

I’m not saying that rangers deserve a nerf (even if it won’t hurt probably), I’m just saying that the guardian is too frail for a class that can only be melee, and doesn’t get anything from buffing others.

@Kidel
You’re obviously playing it wrong if you feel the weakest in your group. o.o Guardian is one of the strongest atm.

Nothing wrong in what I’m doing. Simply put, I buff the others, while not receiving almost any buff. The guardian is strong as a warrior (example) when it’s buffed, so a warrior with guardian buffs is stronger then a guardian.
It’s not hard to understand.
It doesn’t involve how I’m able to play guardian or not. Unless you give up on buffing your allies (and so yourself), you are pidgeonholed in the supporter role.

But I’m not going to waste any more time here, if you’re happy with your aoe aegis and the hp of a thief, but with no ranged weapons.

have fun.