Guild Wars 2

SHM.7628:

I don’tr like DR. I don’t know how anyone could. It’s not my intention to just complain about it. Here’s the problem:

I like being all over the map for events. It’s fun in theory. However not long into playing, I am alone and bored There’s champions and events that I have to pass up because I am alone.

So what then? I go to one of the few places that people cluster for events. I start having fun again and Boom DR kicks in.

With such a large and lovely map, I feel as if I am being funneled to chest events because no one else is anywhere else. If that isn’t punishemnt enough, I get DR for playing where it is fun.

I don’t even like playing at the same places repeatedly. However, Dr is one of these systems that your kitten if you do and your kitten if you don’t.

Also, I’m never 100% sure when it kicks it. How about a meter or some indication that I have hit it?

God yes, I’ll trade my firstborn for some kind of notification that DR has been enabled. As it stands now people only regularly visit 6 areas of the game, everything 25-70ish is a complete ghost town with no hope of completion on some of the champ events. Could we maybe get some kind of reward for these areas no one is ever in where I end up trying to solo champions? Harathi, I’m looking at you, and your gigantic spider.

I agree TS. The DR system in this game is just horrible and hurts real players nonstop…….

SHM.7628:

Boom DR kicks in.

SHM.7628:

Also, I’m never 100% sure when it kicks it.

This is the thing, someone feels like their drops aren’t as good as they should be and then immediately start blaming the bogeyman.. in this case, DR.

It’s the same mentality that leads to “omg they stealth-nerfed ecto salvage rates again!!!” threads after every single game update.

rng is rng.

Unless you’ve been farming the same mobs for over an hour or repeating the same dungeon path 4 times in a row.. you’re not hitting any DR on your drops, it’s just bad luck(also known as: regular luck).

From the wiki at http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Diminishing_returns

“DR, is anti-farm code implemented to prevent bots and exploits from disrupting the economy and gaining an unfair advantage over legitimate players.”

“Diminishing returns on loot is not intended to affect the average player, i.e. very few players will experience it during normal play.”

This is why you will never see a ‘meter’ or any indication that you are playing under DR. It is not designed to penalize players, and if players saw how often they were playing under DR the outcry would be even worse than it now is.

I really don’t understand DR in this game. If someone wants to play in one zone all day, what exactly is the problem with that and why the need to micro-manage legitimate players preferences? If one zone attracts players wouldn’t it be a better response to ask what is drawing people to this zone and use that knowledge to make all zones equally attractive?

SHM.7628:

So what then? I go to one of the few places that people cluster for events. I start having fun again and Boom DR kicks in.

If your fun is tied to the quality or quantity of drops you get, you’re playing the game the wrong way.

Yeah, this game really is moving backwards in terms of how people make gold, etc. We have this lovely Manifesto with Colin Johansen saying “We don’t want players to grind in this game, no one enjoys that.” Then the game starts to require more and more grinding with each new patch, as every inflation runs rampant, new currencies are added (constantly!), new gold sinks enter the game (there was no shortage here to begin with), and every area where you COULD make money, be it gold or karma, gets nerf after nerf placed on it, so that prices constantly go up while our ability to make gold goes down. And no, prices going up does NOT mean that all of our incomes increase accordingly; this only works for a minority of people in the game who made tons of money early on or who spend 1/4 or more of their game time just playing the Trading Post. The non-stop inflation in the game means that gold I made yesterday is worth less today than when I made it (and new currencies make it worse), and constantly nerfing any mildly farmable area in the game means that it’s harder to make money now than it was yesterday (or whenever). I mean, we already know we have to grind like crazy just to get ascended gear, as simply getting the 2 accessories takes 80 days of grinding Dailies + 100 Ectoplasms, but do we have to make it harder and harder to to gain gold and karma as the game goes on, while Trading Post prices continue to rise?

Throw DR in the mix and Guild Wars 2 is quickly becoming one of the most GRIND intensive MMO’s to ever exist!

DR has often been touted as an anti-bot measure, btw, but it hurts a large majority of the active player base, as we need tons of gold to move forward in the game (have you seen the price of precursors lately?). It really should be fixed or removed.

I don’t need to personally be hit by the DR code to be affected. Every time I buy a vial of blood, or crystalline dust, I’m playing the game by DR’s rules.

RebelYell.7132:

I don’t need to personally be hit by the DR code to be affected. Every time I buy a vial of blood, or crystalline dust, I’m playing the game by DR’s rules.

This, a thousand times.

DR is not about bots, it’s just one more grain of the mountains of code developed to push people to the TP and the gem store.

SHM.7628:

Get over it. Getting good loot drops is a large part of the fun. If your theory is so accurate, then why is everyone clustering at chest events and 98% of the map is empty?

I am not playing the wrong way, I try to play all over the map. Furthermore, who are you to tell people that they are playing the wrong way? You have a lot of audacity.

Last but not least, This game is more fun where there are people present. Yes I am there for loot but I want to have fun too. Ever try to solo a Champion? Not gonna happen.

This is what I am talking about.

And my personal experience is that a lot of the fun stuff I’ve done has been about difficult battles, such as facing against a Champion with just one or two other people.

Also, the scene that you see in PvE is not representative of the playerbase. Not at all. There’s plenty of people who are doing dungeons, plenty of people who are in WvW and plenty of people who are in sPvP. Now I don’t know about you, but I am pretty sure that people don’t play sPvP for the rewards. Same for WvW.

There are plenty of people in dungeons… one dungeon in particular, the Castle of Fire or something, where they farm money, the only thing you’re allowed to farm.

Olba.5376:

SHM.7628:

So what then? I go to one of the few places that people cluster for events. I start having fun again and Boom DR kicks in.

If your fun is tied to the quality or quantity of drops you get, you’re playing the game the wrong way.

Disagree, MMOs by nature are rewarding to those who like magical drops and opening chests. It’s the whole point really that makes it fun.

RebelYell.7132:

There are plenty of people in dungeons… one dungeon in particular, the Castle of Fire or something, where they farm money, the only thing you’re allowed to farm.

CoF (Citadel of Fire) has been nerfed and changed several times, too; they’re constantly trying to find new ways to make it un-farmable. At one point, they actually went too far and made it nearly impossible to complete, so they had to scale it back to something like the version we have today. But yeah, farming CoF feels SUPER-grindy when that’s the only reliable way to make money, and it’s really no fun at all after a short time. It’s also spawned a no-fun, elitist community of people who will ask you to link all your gear before starting and things like that, as they try harder and harder to reach the elusive “9 minute run”, which if they can approach that, they will then repeat it until someone in the group finally passes out.

So… that’s where we are now.

P.S. – I do think that they way they fixed the loot from dragons and other big events is very good, btw, and I like the once a day timer on those. But there’s still no reason to take away every other farmable part of the game.

SHM.7628:

Olba.5376:

SHM.7628:

Get over it. Getting good loot drops is a large part of the fun. If your theory is so accurate, then why is everyone clustering at chest events and 98% of the map is empty?

I am not playing the wrong way, I try to play all over the map. Furthermore, who are you to tell people that they are playing the wrong way? You have a lot of audacity.

Last but not least, This game is more fun where there are people present. Yes I am there for loot but I want to have fun too. Ever try to solo a Champion? Not gonna happen.

This is what I am talking about.

And my personal experience is that a lot of the fun stuff I’ve done has been about difficult battles, such as facing against a Champion with just one or two other people.

Also, the scene that you see in PvE is not representative of the playerbase. Not at all. There’s plenty of people who are doing dungeons, plenty of people who are in WvW and plenty of people who are in sPvP. Now I don’t know about you, but I am pretty sure that people don’t play sPvP for the rewards. Same for WvW.

“Fun” is subjective. For the hardcore its a super difficult of long time thing to complete. I won’t delve too far into what fun is. for most fun is tied to drops / rewards for completing events.

I am not going to argue with you, but please in the future refrian form using statements like

SHM.7628:

for most fun is tied to drops / rewards for completing events.

You don’t even know Most of the players that play this game, I am even willing to wager you don’t even know 1% of the people that play this game.

In My opinion ( not Most peoples opinion ) people put to much emphasis on got to have X amount of gold. I play the game the way I want, if I want to run a dungeon I do it, if I want to run a fractal I do it. I usually run a full dungeon ( TA ) and then a Fractal, by the end of the day after I do my dailies I come out with around 12 gold. I am not forced to run the dungeon I am not forced to run a fractal, I do it because I enjoy it.

Saying you need to Grind farm for that legendary is not Arena Nets fault, that is yours, Legendary weapons hold no statistical value for players it is a cosmetic skin. You farm for it cause you want to. You Farm for the gold and loot cause you want to, not because you have to. Everything that is not optional in this game In my Opinion ( not most peoples ) is not a grind or a farm fest.

There is a difference between Have to have and want to have.

SHM.7628:

Kaimick.5109:

SHM.7628:

Olba.5376:

SHM.7628:

Get over it. Getting good loot drops is a large part of the fun. If your theory is so accurate, then why is everyone clustering at chest events and 98% of the map is empty?

I am not playing the wrong way, I try to play all over the map. Furthermore, who are you to tell people that they are playing the wrong way? You have a lot of audacity.

Last but not least, This game is more fun where there are people present. Yes I am there for loot but I want to have fun too. Ever try to solo a Champion? Not gonna happen.

This is what I am talking about.

And my personal experience is that a lot of the fun stuff I’ve done has been about difficult battles, such as facing against a Champion with just one or two other people.

Also, the scene that you see in PvE is not representative of the playerbase. Not at all. There’s plenty of people who are doing dungeons, plenty of people who are in WvW and plenty of people who are in sPvP. Now I don’t know about you, but I am pretty sure that people don’t play sPvP for the rewards. Same for WvW.

“Fun” is subjective. For the hardcore its a super difficult of long time thing to complete. I won’t delve too far into what fun is. for most fun is tied to drops / rewards for completing events.

I am not going to argue with you, but please in the future refrian form using statements like

SHM.7628:

for most fun is tied to drops / rewards for completing events.

You don’t even know Most of the players that play this game, I am even willing to wager you don’t even know 1% of the people that play this game.

I’ve known plenty of players. Some hardcore run all the chests with all their toons. They run dungeons, etc. DR never affects them anyway. If you make 12g a day = it doesn’t impact you either.

I DO know what most players in this game think. I see it in their behavior. They are all clustered in 1%-2 % of the map and at chest yielding events.

actions speak louder than words Theirs are speaking volumes.

No you know what maybe 50 players on your server do, again that is not most. So in your opinion and in your experience you think what you said. My server is populated with people all over, not just one zone. Again you speak for your self and your Opinion not other players, let alone most players.

We’re not in a court of law here. You’re allowed to use anecdotal evidence.

SHM.7628:

Kaimick.5109:

SHM.7628:

Kaimick.5109:

SHM.7628:

Olba.5376:

SHM.7628:

Get over it. Getting good loot drops is a large part of the fun. If your theory is so accurate, then why is everyone clustering at chest events and 98% of the map is empty?

I am not playing the wrong way, I try to play all over the map. Furthermore, who are you to tell people that they are playing the wrong way? You have a lot of audacity.

Last but not least, This game is more fun where there are people present. Yes I am there for loot but I want to have fun too. Ever try to solo a Champion? Not gonna happen.

This is what I am talking about.

And my personal experience is that a lot of the fun stuff I’ve done has been about difficult battles, such as facing against a Champion with just one or two other people.

Also, the scene that you see in PvE is not representative of the playerbase. Not at all. There’s plenty of people who are doing dungeons, plenty of people who are in WvW and plenty of people who are in sPvP. Now I don’t know about you, but I am pretty sure that people don’t play sPvP for the rewards. Same for WvW.

“Fun” is subjective. For the hardcore its a super difficult of long time thing to complete. I won’t delve too far into what fun is. for most fun is tied to drops / rewards for completing events.

I am not going to argue with you, but please in the future refrian form using statements like

SHM.7628:

for most fun is tied to drops / rewards for completing events.

You don’t even know Most of the players that play this game, I am even willing to wager you don’t even know 1% of the people that play this game.

I’ve known plenty of players. Some hardcore run all the chests with all their toons. They run dungeons, etc. DR never affects them anyway. If you make 12g a day = it doesn’t impact you either.

I DO know what most players in this game think. I see it in their behavior. They are all clustered in 1%-2 % of the map and at chest yielding events.

actions speak louder than words Theirs are speaking volumes.

No you know what maybe 50 players on your server do, again that is not most. So in your opinion and in your experience you think what you said. My server is populated with people all over, not just one zone. Again you speak for your self and your Opinion not other players, let alone most players.

I’ve been on multiple servers. I’ve guested a lot as well. I am not imagining empty PVE maps. people are clustering for chests and loot.

I don’t know what to tell you if you think getting rare drops, loot, and gold is not fun = You are a minority on that. most people find that fun.

Can you please show me something that supports this, a pole or a survey or something that is more credible than your opinion, and your own personal likes?

From the looks of it you don’t grasp that you don’t even know most of the players on GW2, I mean unless you can show me actual evidence that your opinion is fact, otherwise your just trying to make your Opinion a fact to support your suggestion.

Shoebox.1026:

SHM.7628:

Kaimick.5109:

SHM.7628:

Kaimick.5109:

SHM.7628:

Olba.5376:

SHM.7628:

Get over it. Getting good loot drops is a large part of the fun. If your theory is so accurate, then why is everyone clustering at chest events and 98% of the map is empty?

I am not playing the wrong way, I try to play all over the map. Furthermore, who are you to tell people that they are playing the wrong way? You have a lot of audacity.

Last but not least, This game is more fun where there are people present. Yes I am there for loot but I want to have fun too. Ever try to solo a Champion? Not gonna happen.

This is what I am talking about.

And my personal experience is that a lot of the fun stuff I’ve done has been about difficult battles, such as facing against a Champion with just one or two other people.

Also, the scene that you see in PvE is not representative of the playerbase. Not at all. There’s plenty of people who are doing dungeons, plenty of people who are in WvW and plenty of people who are in sPvP. Now I don’t know about you, but I am pretty sure that people don’t play sPvP for the rewards. Same for WvW.

“Fun” is subjective. For the hardcore its a super difficult of long time thing to complete. I won’t delve too far into what fun is. for most fun is tied to drops / rewards for completing events.

I am not going to argue with you, but please in the future refrian form using statements like

SHM.7628:

for most fun is tied to drops / rewards for completing events.

You don’t even know Most of the players that play this game, I am even willing to wager you don’t even know 1% of the people that play this game.

I’ve known plenty of players. Some hardcore run all the chests with all their toons. They run dungeons, etc. DR never affects them anyway. If you make 12g a day = it doesn’t impact you either.

I DO know what most players in this game think. I see it in their behavior. They are all clustered in 1%-2 % of the map and at chest yielding events.

actions speak louder than words Theirs are speaking volumes.

No you know what maybe 50 players on your server do, again that is not most. So in your opinion and in your experience you think what you said. My server is populated with people all over, not just one zone. Again you speak for your self and your Opinion not other players, let alone most players.

I’ve been on multiple servers. I’ve guested a lot as well. I am not imagining empty PVE maps. people are clustering for chests and loot.

I don’t know what to tell you if you think getting rare drops, loot, and gold is not fun = You are a minority on that. most people find that fun.

Can you please show me something that supports this, a pole or a survey or something that is more credible than your opinion, and your own personal likes?

From the looks of it you don’t grasp that you don’t even know most of the players on GW2, I mean unless you can show me actual evidence that your opinion is fact, otherwise your just trying to make your Opinion a fact to support your suggestion.

Here’s something better than being shown numbers that may or may not be relevant to the in game experience: check the dragon timers for your server. Go to the 1-15 zone closest to spawning a world boss. Then, go to a 50-70 zone, pick any one, doesn’t really matter.

Just because you aren’t being given hard data, doesn’t mean people are being intellectually dishonest.

I am not trolling you made a claim that stats that most players enjoy this, my self and kaimick simply do not agree with you, is dis-agreement is trolling then guilty we are. That doesn’t change the fact that you made a statement that claims people only play these games for loot gold and that is what is fun. I am simply asking you to back that up with some sort of prof. In fact I am in Fireheart rise as we speak and I just ask that map, along with Iron marches, Diessa Plateau, and frostgorge sound if the only reason they have fun and or play the game is for loot and gold. Out of the 20 some odd response I got per a map the main answer was
" Not really, I play just to enjoy my self, loot is nice but not something I play a game for. "

Some said

“Loot is all I care about, I want gold and more gold, if you have gold then everything else is easier in the game”

^ that spawned a in map argument in frostgorge sound.

I guess in the end if your claiming this is the status qou for MMO’s then I don’t think it is un-resonable to ask for some sort of fundamental prof, that is not opinion.

I mean if you were to say, loot is all I care about and the friends I play with, then I will have no issues. If you say that arena net needs to do something to the other maps to being more players to these maps then I can agree with you. Which you did say they needed to do something, and I do agree, although to say that is all players care about as if it is a fact when it is your personal like and others on this partuicular thread, doesn’t make up for the most/ majority of players.

but if in fact I am trolling please report me to the moderators, Trolling is against the CoC if I am then they will delete this post and infract me if not ban me for a day or so.

Aeonblade.8709:

Olba.5376:

If your fun is tied to the quality or quantity of drops you get, you’re playing the game the wrong way.

Disagree, MMOs by nature are rewarding to those who like magical drops and opening chests. It’s the whole point really that makes it fun.

Actually that isn’t quite right. This type of opinion derives mainly from people who have started out on or mainly played large mainstream Raiding MMO’s such as everyone’s favorite whipping boy: World of Warcraft.

The reality is that MMO’s have many different styles of play, of which only one of those styles is tied heavily to loot. This is the Raid and Grind based games like WOW. Honestly it’s easy to see why developers flock to this style, it allows you to make less content and then milk it for all it’s worth. I personally dislike this style because I end up spending a significant portion of playtime grinding and not really having fun to achieve X or Y.

Another style of MMO is PVP based. These are games like Dark Age of Camelot that are based primarily on Player vs Player content. A common failure of these games is to attempt to betray their nature and cater to the WOW style of gameplay at the same time. This is almost certain failure with a primarily PVP player base because the type of rewards each player seeks is wildly different. Example PVE vs WvW vs sPVP in this game. This game is actually exceptional for maintaining a good balance currently.

Then you have niche styles such as the original Star Wars Galaxies (an immersive MMORPG) and City of Hero’s (this game survived off of it’s “feel” and it’s character creation system as well as strong PVE combat that was inherently fun. Champion’s Online also offers it’s own flavor of the COH experience, exchanging loot rewards largely for rewarding play in much the same way COH did.

Trying to make a blanket statement about the rewards nature of MMO’s is quite simply a foolhardy venture and destined to be highly inaccurate.

SHM.7628:

Ralathar.7236:

Aeonblade.8709:

Olba.5376:

If your fun is tied to the quality or quantity of drops you get, you’re playing the game the wrong way.

Disagree, MMOs by nature are rewarding to those who like magical drops and opening chests. It’s the whole point really that makes it fun.

Actually that isn’t quite right. This type of opinion derives mainly from people who have started out on or mainly played large mainstream Raiding MMO’s such as everyone’s favorite whipping boy: World of Warcraft..

It really is all about rewards in one way or another. Rewards are how you measure your progress. Whether its rare gear, gold, or titles. Rewards = a sense of progression. It is a huge part of an MMO.

PVP is a different animal. Some people play to test themselves. They love a challenge. It satisfies their competitive nature to PVP or win a particularly difficult PVE fight.

Still a game without rewards is not a fun game.

You didn’t read all the way through did you, instead you just cherry picked the beginning and gave your own opinion.

A game like City of Heros would have never survived and lived as long as it did for rewards. It was still profitable when they closed it down too, it was a shocking move by NCSOFT nobody saw coming. Champions Online likewise does not live on rewards.

Star Wars Galaxies lived on immersion into a universe.

PVP games as you say are a different animal.

It would be far more accurate to say that, for you, it is all about rewards. But be very very careful when you intend to start speaking for millions of people that play the games they do for a lot of different reasons. Trying to group them all under one banner that isn’t simply “for fun” is the sheerest folly.

Also, do not group “a sense of accomplishment” under the grandiose banner of rewards. As the Extra Credits video linked above explains clearly there are intrinsic rewards and extrinsic rewards and they are very different animals. The latter requires no in game shiney given to you and is vastly superior from a game play vantage point.

“Rewards” in the context of this thread speak of XP, Karma, Loot, and Coin. Those are the only things subject to DR after all.

City of Heroes had some good rewards to it. I enjoyed setting up my crab spider at the 45% positional defense soft-cap, gathering the needed invention recipes and mats required to achieve it.

I also feel that extrinsic and intrinsic are a false dichotomy here. I also enjoyed the CoH content I ran in order to achieve my softcapped. Likewise, the Incarnate enhancements provided an incentive to do the Incarnate Trials, which were themselves fun to do.

Applying that to GW2, let’s say DR didn’t exist. Perhaps, to deck my character out in exotics, I grind a specific kind of enemy in order to get a valuable drop. I’d make a game out of it. I’d plan out my routes, I’d supply myself with consumables like a potion for extra damage against that enemy time. I’d time myself, see how much gold per hour I made doing it.

This would be par for the course in a game like Monster Hunter. People want their shiny new gear, but they enjoy the thrill of taking down a dangerous foe in order to craft it. No one tells you you’re playing it wrong because you chase down specific prey instead of wandering aimlessly around Monster Hunter World and smelling the flowers.

RebelYell.7132:

City of Heroes had some good rewards to it. I enjoyed setting up my crab spider at the 45% positional defense soft-cap, gathering the needed invention recipes and mats required to achieve it.

I also feel that extrinsic and intrinsic are a false dichotomy here. I also enjoyed the CoH content I ran in order to achieve my softcapped. Likewise, the Incarnate enhancements provided an incentive to do the Incarnate Trials, which were themselves fun to do.

Applying that to GW2, let’s say DR didn’t exist. Perhaps, to deck my character out in exotics, I grind a specific kind of enemy in order to get a valuable drop. I’d make a game out of it. I’d plan out my routes, I’d supply myself with consumables like a potion for extra damage against that enemy time. I’d time myself, see how much gold per hour I made doing it.

This would be par for the course in a game like Monster Hunter. People want their shiny new gear, but they enjoy the thrill of taking down a dangerous foe in order to craft it. No one tells you you’re playing it wrong because you chase down specific prey instead of wandering aimlessly around Monster Hunter World and smelling the flowers.

They introduced IO’s 3 years into the game, crab spiders 4 years into the game. City of Heros was actually sharply criticized for a long time for having little to no end game. Yet it flourished. They didn’t add on any real end game until very late in the game’s life when they added the incarnate system 6 years into the game.

So you had 3 years with an easily achievable end game, then 3 with a very soft end game and the game flourished.

You evidently have no idea why the game flourished at all. There is no game like it on the market currently. The closest thing is Champions Online. City of Hero’s succeeded because of it’s character creation system and it was pretty obvious when the average character level was like level 7. People loved to make themes and characters and then play with them. People were far friendlier than your average MMO and many times just sat around dancing to their boomboxes and talking. Heck it was fun for people to just TRAVEL! They even had regular costume contests!

It wasn’t till year 6 that any significant amount of progression oriented people joined the game. I was a 5 year subscriber so I got to see alot of City of Heros. You picked the wrong game to argue.

RebelYell.7132:

I also feel that extrinsic and intrinsic are a false dichotomy here.

A false dichotomy is when someone presents you 2 choices as the only options when there are in fact many. If you understand what intrinsic and extrinsic rewards are you will realize this is one of the rare times in life where it really is binary.

Either something IS rewarding just in the act of doing it OR it’s rewarding because of something (the carrot) you get because you did it. There really isn’t an in between in this case when specifically speaking of rewards.

See, I believe I understand your problem. You believe that progression is the engine that drives the wheels of an MMO. But progression is only an addittional element that adds spice. Ultimately the drive to play an MMO isn’t progression but instead a well designed game that is fun to play and social interaction.

This is easy to test. A well designed game with little to no progression will succeed. There are examples out there of successful well designed MMO’s with little to no progression. However a poor game with plenty of progression will fail. This very clearly shows that progression cannot carry a game, but game play can.

In fact progression is a double edged mechanic which most people do not fully comprehend. On one hand it can make you feel more involved in a game/character by participating in it’s growth and possibly personalizing it. On the other hand progression is unequivocally used to extend a game artificially as a gating mechanism which limits your exposure to the content by controlling how fast you can experience it.

SHM.7628:

All rewards in a game are intrinsic.

Case and point why your mentality is wrong and will never get you to a sound conclusion. Nor will it allow you to understand the point of view of others. I’m done here,

Time to let your topic die .

SHM.7628:

I’ve done upwards of 20,000 damage to an ambient creatures in this game.

I am starting to believe your highest toon is not even 80, my 80’s have hit for over 200,000 k on an ambient creature

SHM.7628:

In a nutshell: What is rewarding is subjective. Many people find getting good loot rewarding. Perhaps you do not. (whatever floats your boat.) That is what lies at the heart of this DR debacle. People feel unreasonably restricted from accomplishing what they want to accomplish. (The very definition of grind)

Thank you for finnaly see what I was saying before

SHM.7628:

In a nutshell: What is rewarding is subjective. Many people find getting good loot rewarding. Perhaps you do not. (whatever floats your boat.)

It is your personal like not the like of the masses, unless you can some how prove that the Majority of MMO gamers only care about loot. But you can’t and this statement supported what I said from the beging.

SHM.7628:

That is what lies at the heart of this DR debacle. People feel unreasonably restricted from accomplishing what they want to accomplish. (The very definition of grind)

Can you please refrence me the chart that explains how you get it in the world not dungeons

• how much DR is applied and when
• How much DR removes your chances
  I know how it is applied in dungeons allow me to show you the exact rule

Dungeons
Dungeons use a DR system due to their large rewards and ability to be repeated quickly. This is designed to minimally impact the speed runner or average player. DR is account-based, switching between characters does not ignore the effects of DR. DR triggers if the dungeon is completed consecutively or in under 30 minutes. DR can be though to accrue in points and affects any dungeon. Cycling between two different dungeons will not bypass DR. For each point of DR earned, potential rewards will be reduced by half, until they reach a minimum value.

This is how it works in the world

Diminishing returns, abbreviated DR, is anti-farm code implemented to prevent bots and exploits from disrupting the economy and gaining an unfair advantage over legitimate players.¹ DR is character-based in all areas except dungeons, where it is account-based and shared between characters. It affects most activities that have potential for abuse. Diminishing returns on loot is not intended to affect the average player, i.e. very few players will experience it during normal play. DR accrues in “points”, which will lead to decreases in the benefits for the relevant activity, such as drop rate or rewards.

Definition of grinding in a video game
Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games. ¹² The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Final Fantasy XI, World of Warcraft, Tibia, or Lineage ³ in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. MUDs, generally sharing much of the same gameplay as MMORPGs, encounter the same problem. Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features.
Synonyms for grinding include the figurative terms treadmilling[citation needed] (a comparison with exercise treadmills) and pushing the bar (it can be a reference to a weightlifter “pushing the bar” on a bench press, over and over to get muscle gains, or a reference to Skinner boxes in which animals, having learned that pushing a button will sometimes produce a treat, will devote time to pushing the bar over and over again, or also can be a graphical reference to push the character’s experience bar to higher values). Related terms include farming (in which the repetition is undertaken in order to obtain items, relating the activity to tending a farm field), and kittening, which refers to extended or obsessive play sessions. Used as a noun, a grind (or treadmill) is a designed in-game aspect which requires the player to engage in grinding.
Grinding is a controversial subject among players. Many do not enjoy it, and disparage it as a symptom of poor or uninspired game design. Others embrace it, claiming that all games feature grinding to some extent, or claim to enjoy the practice of regular grinding. Some games, especially free to play games, allow players to bypass grinding by paying additional fees.

How is Diminishing returns fitting into that definition?

How does GW2 force players into a grind?

What item do you need to have to play in any dungeon or content that you need to grind ?
Some would say higher level fractals, but fractals is a side option not a must for all players to enjoy the game or have some sort of closer to move on.

SHM.7628:

While I do where you are coming from. (and agree with you on some fronts) I can’t see how you can deny that rare drops/ loot/ gold is fun. Not only fun but an essential part of the game.?

It is fun for you and others that you know, again your faililng to see your are trying to generalize a personal statement. That is all people have been trying to point out to you, that what yoru saying should not reflect the Player base but your self and maybe the friends your play with.

SHM.7628:

Ralathar.7236:

SHM.7628:

All rewards in a game are intrinsic.

Case and point why your mentality is wrong and will never get you to a sound conclusion. Nor will it allow you to understand the point of view of others. I’m done here,

Time to let your topic die .

So unless I arrive at “your” conclussion I am “wrong”?

I didn’t call your conclusion wrong, as an opinion it’s incapable of being wrong :P.

SHM.7628:

Kaimick, This will probably be my last reply. The post has veered off so far from the original that it has turned into a philosophical debate about what “fun” is.

Grind is when the amount of effort put in in greatly exceeds its reward. I admit, that too, is subjective. Now if I have an hour a day to play and you have 12 then our experiences may vary greatly. If I can’t accomplish what i want to in a reasonable time period by my standards = I am grinding.

DR is hurting everyone but the hardocre and the bots.

Lastly, getting gold and rare drops is an essential part of the fun. It’s not the only thing that is fun, but its vitally important. Whether you feel this way or not, many do. It affects your gear, skill, and how well you perform. It’s the reason people flock to dungeons and chests. It’s also why the map is empty.

I can’t see how you can’t concede this. But whatever,You are entitled to an opinion no matter how bizzare it may be. Good luck.

PS- I don’t speak for everyone in the game. However from observing consistant behavior of flocking to chests on multiple severs. It become pretty apparent. If you wish to do a survey, have at it.

So you have no prof that DR is affecting normal players what so ever, your just assuming it does becuase your luck is not great. I asked you simple questions and you couldn’t even answer them. You make a thread that says DR is a bad thing and how it affects the normal player and when ask to show the evidence of how this affects the casual player you can’t do it.

Gear and gold have no affect on a players skill, gear does give you the option to put forth more Damage, support, or mitigation but no matter what the gear of the player is if his skill sucks then the gear wont be able to help him in the least.

Thank you for admiting the fact that you don’t speak for all players in the game, and admiting that in your observation and opinion you feel that loot and gold is all players enjoy, regardless of weather it is right or wrong at least you admitted it.

Secondly I have stayed on topic this whole time, asking you to show evidence that DR is directly affecting you, not your opinion of whatyou think is affecting you. I have even posted the definition of grinding which you say DR is the exact definition of, which was false. I posted the clear offical rules on how DR works in dungeons and in the world, which show no indication that runnign a farm train of Orr events will a player ever recieve DR.

I asked simplistic question to try and help your case against DR and you cuoldn’t even provide that. Then when confronted with these options and facts your only retort is I wont responde, becuase your opinion is bizzare and good luck. I guess sometimes Facts are bizzare, just like wild assumptions with no facts to back them up is bizzare.

I hope if your right and can provide evidence of your case it is changed, till then Dr is not an issue.