Guild Wars 2

i will make this very short.

i find tankish builds to be way too good too easily.
the dmg output of these builds compared to the survivability is just too high on every class.

it’s a build which allows you to continually make mistakes again and again and again, miss the importent dodges, get cought by cc and perfect landed combo’s and still get out on top without the big agro or rl skill from your side.

i find it rediculessly easy to play in a tanky build compared to a dps build.
in a dps build i need to land EVERY dodge perfectly, i cannot allow myself to be cought a single time by perfectly executed combo’s and i need perfect control and skill use+ timing to apply my dmg fast enough to have any real effect.
compared to tankish spec where i can as said continually get hit again and again, sometimes even on “purpose” (simply you just get sluppy and “forget” to dodge for most smaller skills since there is no need too) and still easily get out on top or just disengage.

the skill lvl needed to play dps specced compared to tank specced and have the same impact on the battlefield is so far from balanced it’s laugheble.
equelly skilled dps specced and tank specced builds is not even a fight, the tank specced simply just win easy mode by default, which is just wrong..

i would love to see anet actually adress this so “all” builds are valid and equel when played equelly well, not that 1 type of build just rolfstomp every other type with ease..
(this seems to be an issue in all aspect of the game from pve, dungeons, fractiles, pvp, spvp, wvwvw….).

the way balance should work is “time to kill = time to get killed by the same target” when all skills are used correctly.

Erebus.7568:

i will make this very short.

i find tankish builds to be way too good too easily.
the dmg output of these builds compared to the survivability is just too high on every class.

it’s a build which allows you to continually make mistakes again and again and again, miss the importent dodges, get cought by cc and perfect landed combo’s and still get out on top without the big agro or rl skill from your side.

i find it rediculessly easy to play in a tanky build compared to a dps build.
in a dps build i need to land EVERY dodge perfectly, i cannot allow myself to be cought a single time by perfectly executed combo’s and i need perfect control and skill use+ timing to apply my dmg fast enough to have any real effect.
compared to tankish spec where i can as said continually get hit again and again, sometimes even on “purpose” (simply you just get sluppy and “forget” to dodge for most smaller skills since there is no need too) and still easily get out on top or just disengage.

the skill lvl needed to play dps specced compared to tank specced and have the same impact on the battlefield is so far from balanced it’s laugheble.
equelly skilled dps specced and tank specced builds is not even a fight, the tank specced simply just win easy mode by default, which is just wrong..

i would love to see anet actually adress this so “all” builds are valid and equel when played equelly well, not that 1 type of build just rolfstomp every other type with ease..
(this seems to be an issue in all aspect of the game from pve, dungeons, fractiles, pvp, spvp, wvwvw….).

the way balance should work is “time to kill = time to get killed by the same target” when all skills are used correctly.

The balance is focused toward area holding not who can kill who (dumb I know) Bunker ele aside (whom I think is sort of fair in a kill or be killed situation) you get stupid things like tanky roamer BM ranger and phantasm mesmer who have really really good survivability and have an amazing stream of steady damage that’s virtually impossible to mitigate other than just run away.

They say a bunker should not outlast DPS but I think it’s fine if they had less damage.

There is the team fight argument too but it’s kind of silly when a good ele can survive 4 semi-ok bursty people, seems a little silly 4v1 even if they are baddies.

This could be mitigated if all gear provided at least some hp.

Daishi.6027:

Erebus.7568:

i will make this very short.

i find tankish builds to be way too good too easily.
the dmg output of these builds compared to the survivability is just too high on every class.

it’s a build which allows you to continually make mistakes again and again and again, miss the importent dodges, get cought by cc and perfect landed combo’s and still get out on top without the big agro or rl skill from your side.

i find it rediculessly easy to play in a tanky build compared to a dps build.
in a dps build i need to land EVERY dodge perfectly, i cannot allow myself to be cought a single time by perfectly executed combo’s and i need perfect control and skill use+ timing to apply my dmg fast enough to have any real effect.
compared to tankish spec where i can as said continually get hit again and again, sometimes even on “purpose” (simply you just get sluppy and “forget” to dodge for most smaller skills since there is no need too) and still easily get out on top or just disengage.

the skill lvl needed to play dps specced compared to tank specced and have the same impact on the battlefield is so far from balanced it’s laugheble.
equelly skilled dps specced and tank specced builds is not even a fight, the tank specced simply just win easy mode by default, which is just wrong..

i would love to see anet actually adress this so “all” builds are valid and equel when played equelly well, not that 1 type of build just rolfstomp every other type with ease..
(this seems to be an issue in all aspect of the game from pve, dungeons, fractiles, pvp, spvp, wvwvw….).

the way balance should work is “time to kill = time to get killed by the same target” when all skills are used correctly.

The balance is focused toward area holding not who can kill who (dumb I know) Bunker ele aside (whom I think is sort of fair in a kill or be killed situation) you get stupid things like tanky roamer BM ranger and phantasm mesmer who have really really good survivability and have an amazing stream of steady damage that’s virtually impossible to mitigate other than just run away.

They say a bunker should not outlast DPS but I think it’s fine if they had less damage.

There is the team fight argument too but it’s kind of silly when a good ele can survive 4 semi-ok bursty people, seems a little silly 4v1 even if they are baddies.

i think its fine good players can win 1v4, its ok.

i think its silly that good players can ONLY! win 1v4 in a specific tankish build.
this should be able to happend in ALL types of build (dps/tank/heal).

if someone build 100% tank, and some one else build 100% dps, the time it should take them to kill each other should be the same, it shouldnt be that the 100% dps would almost have an impossible time ever killing the tank while the tank just need 1 lucky hit to gimp the dps…

it’s a matter of equelizing the survive to the dps.
if you can only survive 1 hit from a player then you should be able to 1 hit kill him as well (basicly the core essense of this thread).

as it is now, tankish builds can down dps builds in less then 5 seconds while dps builds cannot even kill tankish builds (they simply just outlast the dps forever and at the end they can always just run off if it goes wrong, which is not even an option for the dps builded people once it starts to go wrong).

i wanna see anet make it balanced, so well build dps is as effective as well build tankish and as importent takes the same lvl of RL skills to get the same effect out of (as mentioned as a dps build i need perfect awareness and reactions+dodge+positioning etc. as a tankish build i rarely cares becouse it doesnt matter i got more then enough chance’s to react even if i totally overlook or simply forgets to dodge.)

if you find being tanky too easy then slowly decrease your tankiness; and increase you’re DPS till you’re at a stage you feel comfortable with

i much prefer verying degrees of balance to going either full tank or full glass

that said… very high damage builds>very tanky builds in most dungeons

I think you’re underestimating the difference between tanking builds and dps builds.

Part of my reasoning is that you have probably noticed many players who look like they have glassy builds but are actually bruiser builds.
They have plenty of survivability all over the place, making their DPS look less amazing.

Another factor is the gear they are wearing.
There are plenty of players running around in blues/greens gear. They’re not using exotics and probably won’t for some time.

—

Real glass-cannon builds can do a ton of damage, usually hitting 12~20k with their 3-sec burst combos (it varies on how much their crit-chance favors them), and easily sustain over 3k/sec.
(And remember, the trade-off is that they are extremely fragile, so it’s not common to see these builds)

Tank builds and Bruiser builds will reach no where near even half this output. Usually it’s like 500~1k/sec

Note: This is all going by level80

—

Bruiser builds (a mix of dps / tankiness) is more popular because this game has no way to hold aggro in either PvE or PvP.

So, players are always expecting to take a big hit sooner or later, and most of us aren’t adept at every instance / encounter enough to know when to do the amazing dodge and avoid all damage.

We need to be able to tank at least 2 hits.

Linguistically Inept.6583:

if you find being tanky too easy then slowly decrease your tankiness; and increase you’re DPS till you’re at a stage you feel comfortable with

i much prefer verying degrees of balance to going either full tank or full glass

that said… very high damage builds>very tanky builds in most dungeons

the issue is that the tanky builds are WILDLY better then the dps builds, not becouse people are better at playing the tanky once, simply just becouse the mechanics of the game favours them so extremely!.

in ANY game if you get the ability to turn “invincible” for the full duration of the burst and ignore cc for 2-3 times of the burst dmg while still being able to sustain more then enough dps to kill the target then its pretty obvious which build this will favour.

in gw2 you got the ability due to stun breaker/stability/dodge combination to be 100% immune to ANY and ALL high burst comming out of some one, since the “rule” of all games is that the “burst builds; aka dps builds” will lose if you can negate their high burst combo they already lost by default when you give them tools to 100% garenteed negate that burst.
and when turned around the sustained dps rule is that no matter what people does they can’t negate the actual stream of dps thereby if you can just survive the burst you will win…

its commen knowledge if you played alot of games where different roles and classes are there.

this setup normally works fine becouse its HARD to evade that burst when made perfectly, which sets the “defender” in a high disadvantage from the start, equelling out the total lack of any survive from the “dps” making it a semi fair fight becouse just rushing the dps will get you killed so you need to be smart about it due to that high burst danger. but in gw2 where that high burst is of absolutely no danger due to the 100% garenteed survive of it and all the heal/sustain completely negating any danger of it, it simply does not work…

neither is it good in pve, becouse mobs are designed around every class being able to take a huge amount of punishment, and the game is simply just “survive while slowly picking of hp” meaning that the dps will be at a high disadvantage becouse they die so fast while the tanky will take longer to kill but they simply cannot die, thereby will win no matter what, while the dps actually can be unlucky and die very fast…

my issue with this is simple:
they said they wanted all roles to be equelly valid by all classes and this is just a streight out lie compared to how the actual mechanics is build up ingame.
which was what i was complaining about and really think should be fixed.

Thapaintrain.9546:

This could be mitigated if all gear provided at least some hp.

it’s a simple issue of the burst being WAY too easy to mitigate in pvp and the pve dps being too low compared to mobs hp pools.

In gw2 you have to find a sweet spot between survivability and DPS going all DPS or survivability isnt going to be very successfull because of the game design (no trinity). Every player is mainly responsible for his own survival

I wonder why so many people complain about thief backstab builds then, as per your definition they should be a crappy build…

GummiBear.2756:

I wonder why so many people complain about thief backstab builds then, as per your definition they should be a crappy build…

1 thief’s backstab = 7-8 k hp full toughness character, 50-70% hp hybrid bild character, 80% – full hp glass cannon build, and thief may use some backstab’s in one fight.

Sorry for my bad english:\

i totally agree with this topic. and not from the idea of opinion. i also have seen with my own eyes proof that tank specs are op, and from there require far less skill than dps specs to be effective.

the big issues are
1)insane amount of survivability that can literally heal/mitigate damage faster than the dps spec can spit out. thus making some tank specs impossible to kill.
2)the amount of damage that a full tank spec can deal is ridiculous when looking at how much raw survivability it has.

a full tank spec which cannot be killed at all by a full glass cannon spec should not have enough damage to kill the full glass cannon spec. and if it should. it should not kill the dps spec faster or slower than the dps spec can kill the tank build.

thats what we call balance. balance of dps to survivability. the only thing that should decide the match is not build but instead skill.

my friend which runs a full tank elementalist i cannot kill with my full glass cannon mesmer. even when i test my dps vs her survivability by attacking her without any retaliation, and her only using survivability(heal/damage mitigation) skills.

after seeing that i could not kill her at all i asked for her build. when she gave it to me i looked at it and did a little math in comparison to my full glass cannon dps spec. what i found is that her tank build would mitigate my damage amazingly well. essentially making almost all of my huge damage combos laughably minimal damage. now although i see nothing wrong with this by itself i also noticed that her regeneration would regenerate any damage she would take. in fact she had as much regeneration ability to heal twice the amount of damage she would have taken after it had been mitigated. meaning that she would literally be unable to die from a single full glass cannon spec.

now this is just her survivability…..lets talk about her dps

now she does not have a lot of dps. not nearly as much as i have. duh
but her default dps is more than enough to kill me.

so what happens when her build fights mine?
its really simple. i dont kill her because i simply cant. its mathematically impossible.
and although it will take a long time for her to kill me. she will eventually kill me. no matter how many mistakes she makes she has more than a godly amount of room to recover. while i dont.

the real issue with most tank builds is that not only do they have a ridiculous amount of damage mitigation. they also have a ridiculous amount of regeneration and healing.

i feel that their damage is were it is suppose to be. but not their survivability in comparison.

overall a tank spec should not be able to take on 4 guys when with the exact same amount of skill a dps spec cannot even take on 3.

Idk if it’s an issue between tank vs dps builds, as much as profession X doing a tank build MUCH better than others. I can build a tanky thief, put out 20-22 stacks of bleed with constant weakness/bleed and practically hinder my enemy the entire fight. I problem is, I don’t do that in dd. On my power thief, I can jump in, spike couple thousands harrass some more and finish them off or retreat which happens in a matter of seconds usually. Tank builds are meant to outlast dps builds, which is why 1shotting or even 3 shotting them isn’t possible.

Problem is, classes like bunker ele and bunker guard are virtually unkillable against some builds so you start to notice how a defence build is doing better than a dps. Idk if the bunker guard/ele are “Fair” atm but I wouldn’t suggest nerfing them. If anything tanky builds of any weaker professions should be bumped a little. It has been happeneing, slowly..

To explain the topic in the simplest way think like this.

No matter the build your survivability and dps should add up to a effectiveness level equal to that of each build no matter the class.

As of right now the effectiveness of a average dps build is.
Def: 3
Atk. 7
With a total effectiveness factor of 10

While the average tank build has a
Def. 10
Atk 3
With a total effectiveness of 13

But as you can see the effectiveness factors are obviously unequal.

I totally disagree with the idea that tank specs should always outlast and from there always beat dps specs. But I also disagree with the opposite
The opposite being that dps specs should obliterate tank build.

What I think is right is that the total effectiveness factor should be equal and that “the only winner deciding element be that of skill”

So what I want is for builds to be simply a play style, and for all builds to have the same effectiveness

So make dps specs a
Def 3
Atk 7
With a total effectiveness factor of 10

And tank specs a
Def 7
Atk 3
With a total effectiveness factor of 10

And this idea should be used for comparing any 2 builds from any class.

Spec a
Atk 5
Def 5
Total effectiveness of 10

Spec b
Atk 6
Def 4
Total effectiveness 10

When spec a fights spec b it is not decided by build. But by the winning factor :skill