Guild Wars 2

Its a great mechanic, but certain classes are unbalanced and bias, all classes should have an equal downed state.

Zeefa.3915:

Downed state is good and it is a great core mechanic… it aint gonna go away. I like the differences in skills from the professions too.

It’s so good and great that ANet already cut 50% of it out in sPvP where there are only 5 people. In WvW its complete garbage that just allows the bigger zerg to win … not the side that played better.

I think down state is pretty interesting and adds a twist to the game. That said, I’m used to WoW where you die without an extra chance, so down state is pretty refreshing.

In WvW, use down state to your advantage. Include it in part of your strategy and you’ll see it doesn’t allow the bigger zerg to win all the time.

To date, i have yet to play an mmorpg that actually requires skill. I mean REAL skill, that’s not to say i don’t like this game, but when i hear people gripe about how SKILLED players are losing because of an in-game mechanic i can’t help but get a little bit irked. This at it’s core, is no different than any other mmorpg where you have a healer that can res you. The only difference here is the fact that everyone can revive you. This however is offset by the fact that you can still attack the downed player, and you can attack the one trying to revive him, knockbacks and AoEs anyone?

If one group of players keep reviving downed players, it’s up to the other side to minimize how many the other side can get back up and running. In wvwvw, at least, there can be many classes with knockbacks and AOEs yet I’ve seen people just flat out ignore the downed players as if they are actually dead. Just like how Team 1 rev’s it’s downed players, team 2 should either continue to slam the downed player, or hit the rev’er. I find that one or 2 hard hits would send most people trying to rev rolling back cos they themselves don’t want to die.

So no. The downed state does not need to be removed, it needs to be REFINED. Some classes may have downed skills that make them too much of a pain to deal with considering the downed state is suppose to be a sort of last stand. I can’t say for sure since the only class i really play as is the eng.

NOTE: what I’m saying applies to large groups vs large group as i’ve no exp in 1vs3 pvp. But even in this situation i think there is a way to deal with a downed player.

kenshinakh.3672:

I think down state is pretty interesting and adds a twist to the game. That said, I’m used to WoW where you die without an extra chance, so down state is pretty refreshing.

In WvW, use down state to your advantage. Include it in part of your strategy and you’ll see it doesn’t allow the bigger zerg to win all the time.

Just most of the time. Zergs don’t need an advantage … they already have it in numbers. Can you honestly say that down state isn’t an advantage to the zerg?

I used to hate this mechanic as well, in sPvP specifically because I don’t like killing the same person twice in such a fast paced PvP. But since they lowered the HP it has been all good & WvW you don’t really need to worry about finishing them off since someone else will do it for you.

Kaizer.7135:

I used to hate this mechanic as well, in sPvP specifically because I don’t like killing the same person twice in such a fast paced PvP. But since they lowered the HP it has been all good & WvW you don’t really need to worry about finishing them off since someone else will do it for you.

WRONG.

When you are fighting superior numbers in WvW (which is often far above the numbers in sPvP) you can not afford to go down yet another number of players to down people for you.

Example 1: You are fighting 10 vs 30 and you down someone … so it is now v29, but you have to stomp them so now it is 9 v 29 for the time required to do so … that is advatage superior numbers. Add in the fact that with that much of a disadvantage every second counts as time is also advantage superior numbers.

The system is biased against the smaller group in other ways too …

Example 2: You are fighting 10 vs 15 and you down 3 players … so it is 10v12. Afterwards, though, you die to conditions or whatnot and all three you downed Rally for a 9v15.

Example 3: You are fighting 1 vs 2 and you down both, but while trying to stomp out one of the players the other rallys off some random mob and what was a 1v2 is now a virtual 1v3 as you still have not recovered from the first round of fighting.

This is not an interesting mechanic … its Madness.

remove down state

Taldren.7523:

Kaizer.7135:

I used to hate this mechanic as well, in sPvP specifically because I don’t like killing the same person twice in such a fast paced PvP. But since they lowered the HP it has been all good & WvW you don’t really need to worry about finishing them off since someone else will do it for you.

WRONG.

When you are fighting superior numbers in WvW (which is often far above the numbers in sPvP) you can not afford to go down yet another number of players to down people for you.

Example 1: You are fighting 10 vs 30 and you down someone … so it is now v29, but you have to stomp them so now it is 9 v 29 for the time required to do so … that is advatage superior numbers. Add in the fact that with that much of a disadvantage every second counts as time is also advantage superior numbers.

The system is biased against the smaller group in other ways too …

Example 2: You are fighting 10 vs 15 and you down 3 players … so it is 10v12. Afterwards, though, you die to conditions or whatnot and all three you downed Rally for a 9v15.

Example 3: You are fighting 1 vs 2 and you down both, but while trying to stomp out one of the players the other rallys off some random mob and what was a 1v2 is now a virtual 1v3 as you still have not recovered from the first round of fighting.

This is not an interesting mechanic … its Madness.

My guild and I use downstate to our advantage. In our group of 8 or so people, we’re able to take on groups twice our side (sometimes more if we kite and use the environment to our advantage). We have one or two people who’s specific role is to stomp people and revive people (I’m one of them with my thief). So as soon as I see someone down, or a guild mate tells us they downed someone, I immediately drop what I do and finish off that player. In the fray of the battle, most people don’t notice their downed ally. The same goes for reviving. Each profession’s downstate has SOME getaway ability. In that time, I can res my fallen ally for another fight.

It might not work for you, but my guild and I use it a LOT. Taking it out now would frustrate us. Now… If my guild and I could do it, others can too right?

kenshinakh.3672:

My guild and I use downstate to our advantage. In our group of 8 or so people, we’re able to take on groups twice our side (sometimes more if we kite and use the environment to our advantage). We have one or two people who’s specific role is to stomp people and revive people (I’m one of them with my thief). So as soon as I see someone down, or a guild mate tells us they downed someone, I immediately drop what I do and finish off that player. In the fray of the battle, most people don’t notice their downed ally. The same goes for reviving. Each profession’s downstate has SOME getaway ability. In that time, I can res my fallen ally for another fight.

It might not work for you, but my guild and I use it a LOT. Taking it out now would frustrate us. Now… If my guild and I could do it, others can too right?

Thank you for making my point for me.

Your group has to dedicate people to stomping downed players giving your group an even worse numeric disadvantage vs those they are fighting.

Just because your group can deal with that disadvantage doesn’t change the fact that it is a disadvantage to the smaller group that is in addition to the original numeric disadvantage that naturally exists.

1 – Looks like someone just get the last rock in the head and cant finish someone…
2 – There are a limit of how many people can ress a player.
3 – If someone is ressing a player they are locked for some time, use this to get more people to downed state
4 – Even downed you can continue hitting them and get your rewards when you kill, but everyone just like to be the kitten uberlooking kitten killer with finish him (personally I like some good safe distance).
5 – A zerg will always have advantages in open space where you can go and finish someone. If you jump a wall just to kill someone downed in the middle of the zerg you are the kitennest person I know.
6 – A revived or rally person come with less hp and every downed state give them less hp in downed. 4 downeds, instakill.
7 – If I remember there are 30 seconds for someone to recover one tick of downed. So if someone need to recover downed state will be at least 30 seconds with someone less.

Taldren.7523:

kenshinakh.3672:

My guild and I use downstate to our advantage. In our group of 8 or so people, we’re able to take on groups twice our side (sometimes more if we kite and use the environment to our advantage). We have one or two people who’s specific role is to stomp people and revive people (I’m one of them with my thief). So as soon as I see someone down, or a guild mate tells us they downed someone, I immediately drop what I do and finish off that player. In the fray of the battle, most people don’t notice their downed ally. The same goes for reviving. Each profession’s downstate has SOME getaway ability. In that time, I can res my fallen ally for another fight.

It might not work for you, but my guild and I use it a LOT. Taking it out now would frustrate us. Now… If my guild and I could do it, others can too right?

Thank you for making my point for me.

Your group has to dedicate people to stomping downed players giving your group an even worse numeric disadvantage vs those they are fighting.

Just because your group can deal with that disadvantage doesn’t change the fact that it is a disadvantage to the smaller group that is in addition to the original numeric disadvantage that naturally exists.

I’m not sure if you’re getting my point here. My group uses downstate to our advantage because usually the groups we fight are not organized as we are. We use it to get a 2nd wind. In many MMOs, bigger numbers of average strength players mean the bigger group will win. However, the downstate in GW2 makes it much more flexible. That means if your group is smart, then you can use downstate to your advantage. Of course, if the opposing team is just as smart, then it comes down to numbers.

Even if my group has a worst numeric disadvantage, we’re smarter and more coordinated than the groups we take on. We usually end up winning. I stand by my point that downstate adds a whole other dimension to the gameplay. Use it. Also, if your group is downing people really fast but not being able to finish them off properly, that shows your group’s synergy isn’t optimal. I play support in my group and my DPS isn’t high, but I can get in and out finish people or res teammates quickly so that they can continue their attack. To me, it sounds like your group needs to diversify more instead of focusing on only power take downs.

Normally if there is someone downed there is a lot of permainvi thief trying to finish them. Send them an AoE and be happy.

I don’t really get people complaining about downed state.

Its like, 8v13 battle. The 8 guys get one on the opposite team down. What happens?

Option A) The larger group lets their ally die. Making it 8v12 and we can just ignore downed mechanism.

Option the most likely scenario is that 2-5 guys drop what they’re doing in the larger group, and go to rez their downed ally. What does this mean? Your smaller group of 8 is now only fighting 10-7 players. AND there is a ball of 3-6 opponents that you can rain down AoE all you want, reducing the total HP of the opponent team in great chunks.
And even if they get the guy up, he’s suffering from downed penalty, and is easier to down again. Just throw him down again and you get the same 2-5 players going to his aid again, only now they are starting to go on lower HP too. Beat them, the rest of the group is starting to notice people dropping, and if its a zerg, its likely that they’ll suffer a morale shock and a few players are starting to back up from front to further away from all the damage, leaving the remaining (at this point) 5-6 more vulnerable.

Now, tell me you are a good player, but somehow missed all that?

kenshinakh.3672

I’m not sure if you’re getting my point here. My group uses downstate to our advantage because usually the groups we fight are not organized as we are. We use it to get a 2nd wind. In many MMOs, bigger numbers of average strength players mean the bigger group will win. However, the downstate in GW2 makes it much more flexible. That means if your group is smart, then you can use downstate to your advantage. Of course, if the opposing team is just as smart, then it comes down to numbers..

You are not getting my point here. You are looking at this all wrong … you are not using downstate … you are just playing idiots. That won’t last as time goes by. They can dedicate 1 or 2 players to counter your 1 or 2 players and instead of 8 vs 16 you will have 6 vs 14 which is a worse ratio for your group than when you started.

You talk about being a thief and using SR … well you are countered by an enemy thief doing the same thing because his SR took your target away so they get the revive and your wasted time did nothing but hurt your side as time goes against the smaller force.

The advantage of numbers does not need any more help from the downstate. If you lose to half your numbers then release and do better next time. Maybe have less glass cannon builds, who knows.

the OP should just roll a thief and exploit the downed state for all it’s worth

How is reviving someone in the downed state different the then a healer class in anther mmo? Without healers players die more often regardless of skill.

I think of down state like it is a Medic.

Also not every downed player is less skilled. Some fight more aggressively and inflict more damage.

Taldren.7523:

kenshinakh.3672

I’m not sure if you’re getting my point here. My group uses downstate to our advantage because usually the groups we fight are not organized as we are. We use it to get a 2nd wind. In many MMOs, bigger numbers of average strength players mean the bigger group will win. However, the downstate in GW2 makes it much more flexible. That means if your group is smart, then you can use downstate to your advantage. Of course, if the opposing team is just as smart, then it comes down to numbers..

You are not getting my point here. You are looking at this all wrong … you are not using downstate … you are just playing idiots. That won’t last as time goes by. They can dedicate 1 or 2 players to counter your 1 or 2 players and instead of 8 vs 16 you will have 6 vs 14 which is a worse ratio for your group than when you started.

You talk about being a thief and using SR … well you are countered by an enemy thief doing the same thing because his SR took your target away so they get the revive and your wasted time did nothing but hurt your side as time goes against the smaller force.

The advantage of numbers does not need any more help from the downstate. If you lose to half your numbers then release and do better next time. Maybe have less glass cannon builds, who knows.

You can be any other class and do the same. Also, you do realize that without downstate, you’re promoting glassy builds? That’s less strategy to the game because people will just be focused on high damage instead of communicating and strategizing. With downstate, balanced builds can revive/finish people while glass builds DPS down people’s HP. Downstate adds a whole level of strategy to the gameplay. Also, it makes the game less of just dying, and then respawning.

I don’t see why you don’t understand that regardless of size, downstate works for both sides if utilized. And if both sides utilize it, then you’re back to bigger group > smaller group. So it balances out in the end if both group are just as skilled as each other (and if both group are exactly skilled as each other, bigger group naturally wins. That’s how it always is in games).

Onshidesigns.1069:

How is reviving someone in the downed state different the then a healer class in anther mmo?

This is an amusing question that everyone who wants the downed state removed conveniently ignores. I would honestly like someone to answer this sensibly without being a total kitten.

kenshinakh.3672:

You can be any other class and do the same. Also, you do realize that without downstate, you’re promoting glassy builds? That’s less strategy to the game because people will just be focused on high damage instead of communicating and strategizing. With downstate, balanced builds can revive/finish people while glass builds DPS down people’s HP. Downstate adds a whole level of strategy to the gameplay. Also, it makes the game less of just dying, and then respawning.

I don’t see why you don’t understand that regardless of size, downstate works for both sides if utilized. And if both sides utilize it, then you’re back to bigger group > smaller group. So it balances out in the end if both group are just as skilled as each other (and if both group are exactly skilled as each other, bigger group naturally wins. That’s how it always is in games).

I see … lets ignore the numbers that show that any number of people that you dedicate to stomping down players puts you at a worse disadvantage given an equally competent enemy. This isn’t metaphysics here … we aren’t debating philosophy … its a hard fact that downstate favors the side with the larger number of players once you pass a certain threshold of player skill.

As I keep saying … the advantage of numbers is already enough. You can’t make a case why giving it more of an advantage is reasonable. All you can do is throw out exceptions against pug players that don’t know better yet.

Bahamadude.4925:

Onshidesigns.1069:

How is reviving someone in the downed state different the then a healer class in anther mmo?

This is an amusing question that everyone who wants the downed state removed conveniently ignores. I would honestly like someone to answer this sensibly without being a total kitten.

You are your own healer, tank, and dps. No one is responsible for healing you other than yourself. Down state is not a substitute for dedicated healing classes … there just isn’t any.