Guild Wars 2

Odd question, but if all Sylvari are related, and we have Male and Female gender, which would indicate Sylvari’s have some sort of intimacy. Does that make us all inbred? =S

Not inbred, because sylvari can’t ‘breed’ but definitely incestuous as they are all brother and sister, of sorts.

incest is common in sylvari, if you venture to some of the quest, one of it is saving the his beloved from the nightmare court, heheheeh

Inbred no. Incest… yes. o.o One very big extra loving family.

Except they’re hardly any more incestuous than we all are.
Humans have very small points of origin and all of us share common ancestors with one another, as in, we are all related.

You can’t really call it incest with Sylvair either because they don’t view one another as brothers and sisters and they don’t reproduce. They’re plants not mammals, don’t try and prescribe human traits on them (other than what they have already prescribed onto themselves)

Technically, yes, all Sylvari-Sylvari relationships are incestuous as they are all born from the same “mother”, but then again, since the only real detriment to incestuous relationships is the increased risk of developing congenital defects or hereditary diseases, and Sylvari are incapable of having offspring, there’s really no scientific reason why a Sylvari shouldn’t be boinking their “siblings”.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Except they’re hardly any more incestuous than we all are.
Humans have very small points of origin and all of us share common ancestors with one another, as in, we are all related.

You can’t really call it incest with Sylvair either because they don’t view one another as brothers and sisters and they don’t reproduce. They’re plants not mammals, don’t try and prescribe human traits on them (other than what they have already prescribed onto themselves)

Unfortunately, it’s a bit hard to get rid of the incest notion as the Pale Tree specifically refers to all sylvari as her children in a literal manner, not just a paternal figure. Siblings do exist, as Caithe in Beneath a Cold Moon specifically refers to Trahearne as her brother:

Caithe: The undead dragon at the heart of the cursed land of Orr. Only two living creatures have ever seen it: myself and my brother Trahearne.

Either way, it’s a moot point, as Sylvari cannot breed anyway.

Well, except for the Pale Tree, if she counts as a Sylvari, even if she is unique. Self-pollination happens in nature too. XD

IceBlink.4317:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Except they’re hardly any more incestuous than we all are.
Humans have very small points of origin and all of us share common ancestors with one another, as in, we are all related.

You can’t really call it incest with Sylvair either because they don’t view one another as brothers and sisters and they don’t reproduce. They’re plants not mammals, don’t try and prescribe human traits on them (other than what they have already prescribed onto themselves)

Unfortunately, it’s a bit hard to get rid of the incest notion as the Pale Tree specifically refers to all sylvari as her children in a literal manner, not just a paternal figure. Siblings do exist, as Caithe in Beneath a Cold Moon specifically refers to Trahearne as her brother:

Caithe: The undead dragon at the heart of the cursed land of Orr. Only two living creatures have ever seen it: myself and my brother Trahearne.

Either way, it’s a moot point, as Sylvari cannot breed anyway.

Well, except for the Pale Tree, if she counts as a Sylvari, even if she is unique. Self-pollination happens in nature too. XD

Yes but that is because they are firstborn. The Firstborn all have some weird bond and are considered rather special in terms of Sylvari. With other Sylvari the only genuine references to siblings I’ve come across (and granted I haven’t been looking) has been two twins in the personal storyline who came from the same pod.

Agree with the general consensus – totally incestuous.

And isn’t that a good thing? Not because I’m pro-incest, but because one the best things about fantasy is being ‘out there’ – opening up the possibilities for societies beyond ours.

Being a Sylvari, i thank you ma’am. Mother, being the avatar of the pale tree, is an honorary title. We do love her though. ;-)

Gotta love getting dev responses <3 Thanks for clearing that up =P

ReginaBuenaobra.6953:

People in this thread seemed to be taking the terminology used in the game way too literally, so I talked to our lore masters, and here is what they had to say:

ArenaNet Lore Team

Sylvari don’t breed like humans do, so they can’t inbreed like humans do. When they call the Pale Tree “Mother” it’s more like Mother Earth—we are all “children” of this godlike concept, but calling them such does not make us all related by blood.

“Incest” is a very mammalian taboo and one that doesn’t apply to sylvari. Because sylvari don’t reproduce in the same hierarchical manner as mammals, they don’t have to worry about reducing a gene pool to dangerous levels. They don’t have brothers or sisters like humans do, nor do they have true parents. They are brothers and sisters in the same way we are all brothers and sisters within the human race, whether of the same parents or not. The Pale Tree calls the sylvari her “children” because they are born through her, but you can’t compare humans with sylvari in that way and extrapolate that all sylvari are siblings.

So there you go.

That doesn’t really change that fact that from the perspective of the other races, they do practice incest. If not technically / biologically they do it culturally / conceptually because as a culture they put a lot of emphasis on the whole mother and children thing they got going on.

At the very least it would raise some eyebrows here and there.

Im pretty sure the Sylvari don’t even understand the concept of incest or inbreeding.

Advent.1387:

Im pretty sure the Sylvari don’t even understand the concept of incest or inbreeding.

That’s not the point I’m making.

They do not practice inbreeding as they are asexual beings and they do not practice incest because they are not biological siblings but from our perspective (and from the other mammalian races’) it most certainly comes off as incestuous.

I guess that’s the problem you get with having a race of living plants.

Oglaf.1074:

Advent.1387:

Im pretty sure the Sylvari don’t even understand the concept of incest or inbreeding.

That’s not the point I’m making.

They do not practice inbreeding as they are asexual beings and they do not practice incest because they are not biological siblings but from our perspective (and from the other mammalian races’) it most certainly comes off as incestuous.

I guess that’s the problem you get with having a race of living plants.

Oh, my bad I misinterpreted your previous post. I read it as because they do this they seemingly practice it with out knowing it…oops

Anywho…based on our lovely devs response I feel it should and does in fact apply to all the other races as they are mammalian and humanoid, even the asura and char as they are both bipedal and share human like qualities, and I would assume that at least the asura would realize this much faster than the other races if eyebrows were ever to be raised on the topic.

So if Sylvari are children of “Mother Earth”, why would Tyria birth this species now? If they are a natural defense against the Elder Dragons, why were they not birthed for the previous awakenings? Doesn’t add up.

Toxyn.9608:

So if Sylvari are children of “Mother Earth”, why would Tyria birth this species now? If they are a natural defense against the Elder Dragons, why were they not birthed for the previous awakenings? Doesn’t add up.

My theory is that the Pale Tree is actually Mordemoth the Nature Dragon.

The Nightmare Court is actually right, Ventari’s Tablet corrupted the Nature Dragon in its rising, causing it to change from its true purpose.
But deep down, it still has an instinctual rivalry with Zhaitan (who wields undead magic which conflicts with nature magic), which is why its Firstborn are so bent on killing Zhaitan.

DreamOfACure.4382:

Toxyn.9608:

So if Sylvari are children of “Mother Earth”, why would Tyria birth this species now? If they are a natural defense against the Elder Dragons, why were they not birthed for the previous awakenings? Doesn’t add up.

My theory is that the Pale Tree is actually Mordemoth the Nature Dragon.

The Nightmare Court is actually right, Ventari’s Tablet corrupted the Nature Dragon in its rising, causing it to change from its true purpose.
But deep down, it still has an instinctual rivalry with Zhaitan (who wields undead magic which conflicts with nature magic), which is why its Firstborn are so bent on killing Zhaitan.

The Pale Tree is not the corrupted Nature Dragon, it is only influenced by the corrupted Nature Dragon which presumeably lies sleeping in the roots of the Pale Tree.

Sylvari are plants, not mammals or animals like humans, charr, norn and asura. You don’t call a tree pollinating itself “incestuous” or “inbreeding”. You don’t call two seeds that originated from the same plant “sister seeds”. It’s a whole different world that you can’t define by human standards.

No we are not inbred but yes we are all incestuous.

The fact that Sylvari are plants and not animals is irrelevent to determining whether relations among Sylvari are incestuous. The reasoning is because Sylvari were created to mimic humans as closely as possible and that would have to include familial structure and relationships. What determines the wrongness of incest isn’t the genetic problem but the social acceptance or refutation of actions which are considered incestuous. If we are meant to determine that incestuousness amongst the humans in GW2 is based on our standards and morality then the same would have to apply to the Sylvari because the Sylvari were created to mimic humans as closely as possible.

Mimic yes. But mimic does not mean “become”.
Is a bush shaped in a human form suddenly human, with all cultural and social presets and rules? Of course not, and neither are Sylvari. As far as I know, Sylvari mimic human form, not human society or culture.

You guys, I think you should not take human values to a non-human race, how humanlike they are.

smeen.4237:

You guys, I think you should not take human values to a non-human race, how humanlike they are.

But how could we not do that? Norns, Asura, Humans and Charr all probably share our real-world sentiment that incest is disturbing and wrong. No doubt they would look upon the Sylvari the same way us real-world Humans do.

Ellisande.5218:

DreamOfACure.4382:

Toxyn.9608:

So if Sylvari are children of “Mother Earth”, why would Tyria birth this species now? If they are a natural defense against the Elder Dragons, why were they not birthed for the previous awakenings? Doesn’t add up.

My theory is that the Pale Tree is actually Mordemoth the Nature Dragon.

The Nightmare Court is actually right, Ventari’s Tablet corrupted the Nature Dragon in its rising, causing it to change from its true purpose.
But deep down, it still has an instinctual rivalry with Zhaitan (who wields undead magic which conflicts with nature magic), which is why its Firstborn are so bent on killing Zhaitan.

The Pale Tree is not the corrupted Nature Dragon, it is only influenced by the corrupted Nature Dragon which presumeably lies sleeping in the roots of the Pale Tree.

Okay, so stop right there. The only thing buried at the base of the Pale Tree is Ronan’s dead family, who were killed by the mursaat during the time period of GW1. He planted the Pale Tree (a seed he found among many other seeds in a cave in Kryta/Maguuma Jungle) on the graves of his family to remember them. Unless there’s a happy little cave with Elder Dragon champions (or more ridiculously Elder Dragons themselves) hanging out inside of it instead of just magical seeds (which is more likely), I seriously doubt the Pale Tree has much to do with the Dragons. Also, since we’ve met sylvari who aren’t from this particular tree, it makes it less likely that the trees are associated with the Dragons.

As to incest and inbreeding it would be rather hard to inbreed if you don’t breed. I don’t think people are weird for being in relationships when they’re both humans. They both probably had a common ancestor if you go far enough backwards (especially in Guild Wars where the origin of humans and other species are more obvious) through time. So in a race like the sylvari, it’s not weird at all to be in a relationship of another person from your own species, it’s just a younger species. I honestly don’t think another race would view the sylvari as incestuous. The only thing I can see as being incestuous would be sylvari who were born from the same pod (note that the majority of sylvari are each born in their own pod, further noting their difference and non-relatedness), i.e. twins. That might be a bit odd, but apart from that I can’t see a human or asura being like “eww those plants are both plants why are they making out?!”

Sylvari would only be incestuous as an analogy that attempts to specifically portray them as incestuous. As A-Net clarified, they are plants. they have a superficial mimicry of humanity but they are still completly plants. In Tyria, some plants can walk and move and think but that doesn’t make them any less plant.

So yes, if we arbitrarily decide to equate the pale tree with our own mothers then they are incestuous but our own mothers don’t give life to a whole race generation after generation. And our own mothers aren’t plants propogating an entire plant race.

but the problem with the term incest is that it is a cultural term that complelty relies on the culture determining what the point of “Too closely related to marry” is. smaller villages in europe tracked how close cousins were so they could determine if persons were marriagable. Sylvari may well be less related than some “acceptable” unions of ours because physically, they don’t procreate like us and socially, they don’t grow up with each other the way we can. And they don’t share the same type of familial units that we do.

This thread creeps me out, but only when I let go of the OP’s use of the word ‘we’.

Heh, I bet the devs are all like “Stop trying to rule 34 my game!”

Leo G.4501:

Heh, I bet the devs are all like “Stop trying to rule 34 my game!”

Resistance is futile.

Anyway, the devs have spoken. While we, as humans, and other races in-game may certainly perceive the actions of Sylvari-Sylvari intimate relationships as incestuous, the concept doesn’t really apply to Sylvari.

wincest for everybody!

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

I seriously doubt the Pale Tree has much to do with the Dragons. Also, since we’ve met sylvari who aren’t from this particular tree, it makes it less likely that the trees are associated with the Dragons.

either that or the tablet corrupted the first champion and it’s minions (the tree and sylvari) the ED experienced this through the dream and slowly became swayed to ventari’s teachings itself and the “be nice” message was further reinforced by positive interactions with the other races, that then affected the other sylvari with a more direct connection to the dragon making them also good (but without a dream since they don’t have a ventari tablet)

basically: what if the other sylvari were turned good by the ventari tablet using the dream and the ED as a proxy? (it would explain why they hate zhaitan so much, since the ED’s fight over territory and zhaitan is actively encroaching on caledon by the start of the game)

this is all speculation ofc, but imagine if it turned out to be true, we’d have an elder dragon on our side and a dark secret for the sylvari (and it puts the nightmare court in a different light, since they’d be RIGHT in saying that sylvari are meant to be evil)

(or perhaps ED6 is just nice anyway, they don’t HAVE to be destructive, after all, from a certain viewpoint, kralkatorrik made the branded perfect, zhaitan gave the risen a second chance at life, jormag gave the icebrood immortality, and bubbles is creating more habitat for sealife when he leaves… primordus is a bit of a dick still though)

as for the incest thing:

sylvari are plants, plants can breed asexually, and often are technically incestuous since they can’t really control how insects pollinate them

Sylvari themselves cannot reproduce, but the pale tree is connected to all of us and evolves the next generation of us as she feels would be best for survival. This why you see a lot of same gender relationships with-in the Sylvari. We have relationships based on relationships, not the urge to reproduce. ^^

plants pollinate, its random, with wind and bees…
there is no “incest” in plants…

Sylvari themselves are not the actual tree, they are more like sentient fruits,

SAT example: pale tree to sylvari like apple tree to apples.

hinting that apples have incest make no sense because apples themselves don’t reproduce.

The Sylvari’s culture is a bit more advanced than that of plants, isn’t it? They put a lot of importance in being “children of the Pale Tree” in their culture.

The pollination argument is also flawed as Sylvari do have sex, which essentially is sex between siblings. Even if said sexual acts are for pleasure and not procreation, they still count. From a cultural/social perspective, they all do practice incest.

A social perspective of incest means the act needs to be with someone “too close to marry”. Sylvari don’t have this standard so they can’t actually have incest. The idea od incest is complelty relative to the culture. Sylvari don’t have incest because no one is too close to be with anyone else.

if there are no “brothers” how are the twins in one of the story lines explained?

Akiko.2364:

if there are no “brothers” how are the twins in one of the story lines explained?

they’d be like two peas in a pod
badum – tssh

ok, awful jokes aside, they were likely either born at the same time or both came from the same “fruit” (those blue things where players first spawn in tyria)

That’s actually right

with many sylvari considering others more like distant relatives with few exceptions – such as twins born from the same pod, or those which shared dreams (the latter may also result in lovers, however).

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sylvari

ReginaBuenaobra.6953:

ArenaNet Lore Team

Sylvari don’t breed like humans do, so they can’t inbreed like humans do. When they call the Pale Tree “Mother” it’s more like Mother Earth—we are all “children” of this godlike concept, but calling them such does not make us all related by blood.

“Incest” is a very mammalian taboo and one that doesn’t apply to sylvari. Because sylvari don’t reproduce in the same hierarchical manner as mammals, they don’t have to worry about reducing a gene pool to dangerous levels. They don’t have brothers or sisters like humans do, nor do they have true parents. They are brothers and sisters in the same way we are all brothers and sisters within the human race, whether of the same parents or not. The Pale Tree calls the sylvari her “children” because they are born through her, but you can’t compare humans with sylvari in that way and extrapolate that all sylvari are siblings.

So there you go.

Conclusion: We are all committing incest. Everyone. Especially the Asura.

Toxyn.9608:

So if Sylvari are children of “Mother Earth”, why would Tyria birth this species now? If they are a natural defense against the Elder Dragons, why were they not birthed for the previous awakenings? Doesn’t add up.

Forgive me if my lore is off. o.O;; Here is my logical progression/theories on the matter.

• Ronan found the seed(s) abandoned in a hidden cave.
• The last Elder Dragon rampage was nearly/over 1000 years ago.
• 1000 years would be plenty of time for a species birthed by the will of the land and existing largely to combat the Elder Dragons to extinguish themselves after their task(s) are done.
• Very, very little information remains from the last Awakening. (As it stands, pretty much all the surviving races from the last one either had to become martyrs, or devolved to the point where they can no longer maintain records of history.)
• Tyria is a world of a cyclical nature between destruction and creation.
• Several Wyld Hunts of notable (and not-so-notable) Sylvari have been “cleansing” and renewing the land.
• (This point I’m not so sure about, but:) No information is available about the actual origins of the Pale Tree’s seed (what created it, it’s “mother”, etc.), or its/her process of reproduction.

Following this logic its quite possible that the Sylvari are the agents of regeneration provided by Tyria itself as part of the death/rebirth process. You don’t ever really kill the dragons “once and for all,”… you just kinda bother them until they stop moving… for the next 1000 years.

Add on to that the posited theory that had the Pale Tree not had contact with Ventari and Ronan the “tree children” would have a form other than humanoid, and you get some interesting thought-food about what other forms they might take. (Perhaps the Pinesoul/Mossheart/Oakheart?)

What if the Pale Tree is destroyed? Would that cut the Sylvari off from the Dream? Would it kill them as well? Additionally… you find out through one of the story paths that Sylvari born from a different tree have a completely different Dream. Without the Dream would they degrade into nothing more than beast-like plants? (Cough-nightmarevines/wurms-cough)

Dustfinger.9510:

A social perspective of incest means the act needs to be with someone “too close to marry”. Sylvari don’t have this standard so they can’t actually have incest. The idea od incest is complelty relative to the culture. Sylvari don’t have incest because no one is too close to be with anyone else.

As I’ve said repeatedly, this is partly not about how the Sylarvi look at it.

From the perspective of the other races’ (and ours, the human race outside of the game) they are all practicing incest.

Oglaf.1074:

As I’ve said repeatedly, this is partly not about how the Sylarvi look at it.

From the perspective of the other races’ (and ours, the human race outside of the game) they are all practicing incest.

Allow me to agree, and disagree. I see where you’re coming from. Yes, if the other races heard us all calling each other “brother” and “sister” then their immediate reaction would be “omg incest”… and then they get some education. See, with this line of thinking (now that a Dev has clarified), the phrase “check yourself before you wreck yourself” should be applied to these poor, ignorant, (fictional) fools.

They aren’t actually brothers and sisters. The whole Grove functions… kinda like a cult.

Lets use what could very well be a real-world example.

• There is a city with a bunch of people. These people have all experienced the same life-altering event. These people have a “leader” that they call “Mother.” These people regularly share with Mother the experiences that leave the strongest imprint in their memories and emotions. Mother then shares the strongest of these with all her other “children” (her followers), usually minus the actual person involved (just the event), and all the “children” have a sense of being connected to one another; like they’ve all shared in the experience of the individual.

Basically, the Sylvari have a pretty nifty little religious cult going on. They call each other “Brother” and “Sister” similarly to how the Russians used the term “comrade.” So, once the other races catch on to this, they’re not looking at us funny because they think we’re committing incest; they’re looking at us funny because we’re a religious cult with a loose-canon sect of BDSM fanatics attempting a coup d’etat of the whole organization.

I disagree.

The Sylvari put a lot of emphasis on being the children and the Pale Tree being the mother. Not in a cult-like setting, but a family setting. She is the mother and they are the children.

I think that’s more that the Sylvari hold those who have had more experiences in higher regard. The Pale Tree came first, then the Firstborn, and on it goes. We came from her, so what better word than “mother”?

Try to keep in mind that the Sylvari are a very new race. Biologically they’re not exactly identical to humans. You ever notice they don’t have bellybuttons? I read somewhere else on the web that they don’t have nipples either. That’s because there is no physical reason for those to be present.

Sylvari are not human, but we as players are. We tend to try to relate everything to our own views and experiences. I’m not surprised the inbreeding question came up. Just look at ads and entertainment and think about how often sex pops up in our lives. I know a sylvari would embarrass someone with endless questions about the recent round of Super Bowl ads.

Oglaf.1074:

As I’ve said repeatedly, this is partly not about how the Sylarvi look at it.

From the perspective of the other races’ (and ours, the human race outside of the game) they are all practicing incest.

i don’t think we would lable a union of two apples from the same tree as incestuous :P

Dustfinger.9510:

Oglaf.1074:

As I’ve said repeatedly, this is partly not about how the Sylarvi look at it.

From the perspective of the other races’ (and ours, the human race outside of the game) they are all practicing incest.

i don’t think we would lable a union of two apples from the same tree as incestuous :P

That would shed an interesting light on apple pies :p

Dustfinger.9510:

Oglaf.1074:

As I’ve said repeatedly, this is partly not about how the Sylarvi look at it.

From the perspective of the other races’ (and ours, the human race outside of the game) they are all practicing incest.

i don’t think we would lable a union of two apples from the same tree as incestuous :P

If the apples lived in a culture that put a lot of importance on the fact that they are all brothers and sister, then yeah, we would.

Oglaf.1074:

Dustfinger.9510:

Oglaf.1074:

As I’ve said repeatedly, this is partly not about how the Sylarvi look at it.

From the perspective of the other races’ (and ours, the human race outside of the game) they are all practicing incest.

i don’t think we would lable a union of two apples from the same tree as incestuous :P

If the apples lived in a culture that put a lot of importance on the fact that they are all brothers and sister, then yeah, we would.

“People in this thread seemed to be taking the terminology used in the game way too literally”

“When they call the Pale Tree “Mother” it’s more like Mother Earth—we are all “children” of this godlike concept, but calling them such does not make us all related by blood.” – ANet

Yeah ANet says that.

Still doesn’t stop me from getting the chills when I hear about their brotherly and sisterly love….