Guild Wars 2

This question keeps bugging me. I have nothing against the Pale Tree and their cohorts but a lot of times (especially if you get the White Stag hunt option) I feel that there’s something intrinsically wrong with the Pale Tree which is why the Nightmare court exists.

I keep getting this freedom fighters vibe from the Nightmare Court. I mean, sure they want to spread hate and despair and a lot of the Nightmare Court characters ONLY want to spread hate and despair but when you actually think about the goal of the Nightmare Court, they want to be free from the influence of the Pale Tree because they would rather prefer to face life realistically (love with loss, joy with pain, dream with the shattering truth of reality). The execution might be flawed but the intent is not evil – it is actually noble.

It’s like the Grove is North Korea, you know. They’re all seemingly happy but it’s really just a cult of personality, and some of these Nightmare court guys have woken up to the reality of the rest of the world around them and realized that hey… things aren’t so peachy.

False.

They are also highly xenophobic and likely to attack/have negative interactions all other races on sight. They’re evil, but they have a reason to be so. At best, they’re affably evil.

And they don’t want to be free from the Pale Tree. They want to “save” the Pale tree from the influence of Ventari’s Tablet.

And…do you listen to Sylvari around the world? There are quite a few who complain/don’t act happy.

I’m not saying the Nightmare Court is evil end of story, I just don’t see what you’re seeing. At all.

And a lot of the personal Sylvari storyline deals with love, loss, joy, pain, and I don’t think the Sylvari are turning their eyes away from the truth.

Yes, they are evil.

The Nightmare Court is corrupted. Sylvari may initially join it for ‘freedom’ or similar noble reasons, but like a disease, the Nightmare twists the mind of its Courtiers so that they lose all ethical and moral fiber (pun not intended) on the topic of pain and suffering. A Nightmare Courtier truly honestly and genuinely believes making living beings suffer is good and right. Even the most noble seeming Court members you encounter, like in the White Stag quest, genuinely desire to destroy and spread pain.

The ones who are genuinely doing the freedom from the Pale Tree thing, be it because they want to, or because they feel they have to, are the Soundless.

Soundless: How to handle being free of the tree the right way.
Nightmare Court: How to handle being free of the tree by being horrible monsters.

Their intentions don’t erase their actions either. No matter how noble or not they might be, what they do is vicious, cruel, and unforgivable.

So I apparently posted this before reading their write up on the official GW2 wiki. Here’s a snippet that somehow corroborates what I’m talking about.

“The primary goal of the Nightmare Court is to corrupt the Pale Tree herself, bringing her around to their twisted ideals so that the sylvari may be freed from the shackles of Ventari’s Tablet and replace this philosophy of a centaur and a human by one which is uniquely sylvari.

The sylvari in the Nightmare Court don’t consider themselves “perverse”; some wouldn’t even think of themselves as “evil”. They have chosen a path they think is correct and are willing to convince other sylvari to choose the same path. Once within the court, their converts are forced to commit dreadful acts that destroy every last ounce of virtue they may have left."

Based on this, I think the motivation (freeing themselves from the shackles of the philosophy of a centaur and a human – as well intentioned as it may seem – to be replaced by something that is unique to the sylvari) is actually the progressive mind set I would rather adopt. From a Sylvari standpoint, I wouldn’t want my morals and ideals to be dictated to me by some tablet that some centaur and human wrote years ago. They are not Sylvari, and they do not understand the unique situation of the Sylvari race.

As for the Nightmare Court, I am inclined to agree that while the motivation is noble, the execution is morally questionable. I am still not convinced however that all of the Nightmare Court maintain this mindset considering that Gavin (White Stag option) chose to fight and die in honor when he could have easily gained the upper hand through deception.

My main qualm here as well is more philosophical – evil supposedly cannot arise from something that is purely good. Why did the Pale Tree not “foresee” through the Dream of Dreams that the Nightmare Court will arise? The Sylvari who formed the Nightmare Court came from the Pale Tree herself as well, so is there not a chance that there is a flipside to this Dream of Dreams that the Pale Tree does not want to acknowledge but has subconsciously manifested itself through some of her children? Consequently, shouldn’t the goal of the Pale Tree be unification then, instead of Separation?

I…don’t think the Dream works that way. Remember, the Nightmare Court was formed by a firstborn and some of the first Sylvari that came after. The Pale Tree does not control the dream, and the Sylvari as a whole can dictate their own lives. How exactly has the tablet affected them that much? The existence of the Nightmare Court and the Soundless should be evidence enough that the Tablet isn’t controlling their lives THAT much. The tablet itself pretty much just says: Don’t be a bigot, be rational, and follow life."

You did listen to what Gavin wanted to actually do to the stag, right? He wanted to make it suffer, simply so the innocent creature’s pain can aid the Nightmare.
It is possible to be noble or honourbound and still be amoral.

If you want your creativity tickled, btw, some people are theorizing that the Nightmare and the Nightmare Court were born from the memories of those poor Sylvari who first encountered the Asura and were experimented on (apparently in quite ruthless ways).

Ten.8421:

You did listen to what Gavin wanted to actually do to the stag, right? He wanted to make it suffer, simply so the innocent creature’s pain can aid the Nightmare.
It is possible to be noble or honourbound and still be amoral.

If you want your creativity tickled, btw, some people are theorizing that the Nightmare and the Nightmare Court were born from the memories of those poor Sylvari who first encountered the Asura and were experimented on (apparently in quite ruthless ways).

RE: Gavin – yeah I suppose you’re right. He just seems more lawful neutral/lawful evil than his cohorts. I really did like Gavin and I really felt bad when I had to kill him.

Caithe herself seems to have a hidden dark side. I think it’s in the Green Knight and Moon Shield option where she interrogates one of the Nightmare Courtiers and kills the courtier like it was nothing after she got the information she needed all the while saying something like “This is enough violence for now.”

Still it makes me wonder what it is with the Pale Tree that’s causing the Soundless to turn away and the Nightmare Court to attract/seduce Sylvari. I mean, if the Pale Tree was “perfect”, the Sylvari would be united in the grove as her “goodness” would be stronger than the nightmare’s supposed corruption. I keep having that nagging feeling that something’s not right with the Pale Tree or that it’s hiding something from the rest of the Sylvari race.

riku.2091:

I…don’t think the Dream works that way. Remember, the Nightmare Court was formed by a firstborn and some of the first Sylvari that came after. The Pale Tree does not control the dream, and the Sylvari as a whole can dictate their own lives. How exactly has the tablet affected them that much? The existence of the Nightmare Court and the Soundless should be evidence enough that the Tablet isn’t controlling their lives THAT much. The tablet itself pretty much just says: Don’t be a bigot, be rational, and follow life."

Riku I think the reason I’m questioning the moral stance of the Nightmare Court is somehow related to what is happening right now in the real world. First of all, just as a disclaimer, I do not condone terrorism in any form, in the same way that spreading corruption/destruction is not a morally gray area for me – it is clearly evil. However, if you look deeper into the issue, there’s a reason why terrorists become terrorists. I would like to believe that people /sylvari are not inherently born evil.

I can see a parallel to this situation in the story of the Pale Tree vs Nightmare Court. Essentially the NC are the terrorists of the Sylvari race. They don’t want to conform, they want to sow disorder for their own seemingly crazy ideas. However, I want to go deeper than that and challenge the assumption that the Pale Tree is all good and such. If it were, then why are Sylvari being tempted to join the NC? Surely, there must be a flaw in the system that’s making them question their association to the Pale Tree and to Ventari’s teachings.

Like media in real life, the view presented by the game to us with regards to the NC is very 1 sided. Not all Muslims are terrorists (actually only an extremely small percentage of them are) and thinking along those lines, and I would like to conjecture that perhaps, not all NC are evil considering that their supposedly driving motivation (which is to get rid of ventari’s teaching and replace it with something that is organically sylvari) is not inherently evil.

Is it possible that the NC NPCs we encounter simply represents the extremist arm of their group but that there are many other Sylvari who ascribe to their ideals but are not violent?

This is different from the Soundless though as the Soundless just don’t want to have to do anything with the Pale Tree.

Prideful even as he awakened, Cadeyrn showed signs of having shadows close to his heart. In time he became a capable warrior, but he was one whose versions of logic and justice were different from other sylvari. It was this difference in ideology that would eventually turn his blade against both The Grove and the world.

He was there to witness the aftermath of Malomedies’ first bitter contact with the asura, and in battle he saw no hope in mercy. In each occasion, he only saw peace through aggression, and as each turn was stymied, his enmity of the Tablet grew. Despite a supplication to the Pale Tree, Cadeyrn began to see one thing clearly: the sylvari, with hands tied by the Tablet’s teachings, would never be whole. With this thought in a jealous heart, he began his campaign to corrupt the Pale Tree, and to unleash the sylvari from false morality.
- From the Wiki.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cadeyrn

I don’t see how you’re connecting any of this to there being a problem with the Pale tree herself. According to this, it was just becuase one Sylvari got angry at a non-sylvari, and decided that anything non-sylvari influencing them was bad.

And I think the actual parallel involved is the Unseelie Court.
The Unseelie Court consists of the malicious and evilly-inclined fairies. Unlike the Seelie Court, no offense is necessary to bring down their assaults. As a group (or “host”), they appear at night and assault travelers, often carrying them through the air, beating them, and forcing them to commit such acts as shooting elfshot at cattle. Like the beings of the Seely Court who are not always benevolent, neither are the fairies of the Unseelie Court always malevolent. However, when forced to choose, they will always prefer to harm—rather than to help—humans.
- From Wikipedia.

I somehow doubt that the Court will suddenly become nice and peaceful as soon as the Pale Tree is corrupted. By corrupting the tree they are bound to cause any further saplings to start out vicious and hateful if not just horribly traumatized. The Sylvari aren’t even “bound” by the tree anyways. Clearly they can have other ideals or be away from the tree with no issue, see the Soundless.

The Court has a purpose and one that has some logic to it but they are still evil people that prey on the innocents. How are they better than the tablet if they brainwash, torture, and force innocents into the Court?

The way I see the tree is as a mother taking care of her children and teaching them what she thinks is right. That doesn’t make her evil, she’s hardly teaching them terrible things. They are free to choose a different path and many do. By the way the Dream works, the Sylvari are going to be influenced by something, tablet or not. They’re still going to have the memories of the rest of their species. The Court will just be exchanging it with a different influence, which is hardly any better.

I would like to clarify that the majority of soundless sylvari like apart from the tree and the dream because their connections to the dream are too strong, they cant bear the ‘cacophony’ of their races emotions constantly. I’m not sure if there are sylvari that become soundless because they don’t like the idea of the tablet, since most of them are sided with the nightmare court, naturally.

As some would say, evil is a point of view.

The Nightmare Court kills largely without remorse or conscience as they are largely chaotic. Gavin is a rare exception among them. They kill innocents and anyone else who gets in their way without a moment’s hesitation; some even reveling in torturing their prisoners until they begged to die or turned. Death and murder are actions they have no qualms with and to those that value life, this is pure evil.

The Soundless are far from any sort of “evil”. They are Sylvari who found the echoes and voices of the Pale Tree, the Dream, and other Sylvari to be deafening and mentally jarring and they chose to cut themselves off. They don’t aim to hurt others and the Nightmare Court slaughters them with the same indifference as those from the Grove.

The Pale Tree grew up with the Ventari Tablet, which speaks about accepting others regardless of their species/choices/actions/alignments and to accept all forms of life and their right to exist; evil or good. The Pale Tree does not try to get her children back who “stray”, if you will. She mourns for her children who turn to Nightmare and pities her children who choose to silence her voice. But she does nothing, for they have a right to choose their own lives, even if it differs from her ideals.

Besides, if the Nightmare Court was able to corrupt the Pale Tree, they’d be an even bigger threat to the rest of the world. They would have a tree that would be able to grow and produce and endless number of soldiers for their ranks, most likely far faster than any of the other races could reproduce.

That would be all around kinda bad for everyone.

Regardless of the Nightmare Court’s motivation, what they try to accomplish is essentialy the moral opposite of what the Tree presents to the Sylvari (basically, acceptance and tolerance) and they do it forcefully unlike the Pale Tree who doesn’t force her children to do anything, only teaches and tells them what she believes is right. They still have free will, the Soundless being the proof of that.
And also regardless of their motivation, I don’t believe the end justifies the means.

And we still have the possibility of another tree in Maguma Wastes/Magus Falls. The Sylvari we meet there (I surmise is a First Born of that tree) is more sided with the Dream Sylvari and not the Nightmare Sylvari.

The Nightmare Court just seems consumed by hate and anger. The Sylvari are empathetic and follow much of their emotions, but the Dream Sylvari advocate a moderation as one said “Moderation is good for everything, even for moderation” – Paraphrased.

Take some time listening to the NPCs in the cities (or even the Nightmare court are you get disguised in), you can learn a lot. A Jotan in Hoelbrak talks about how the Norn and Jotan with the Gift of Magic given to everyone (before the Exodus of the Gods etc) were mainly the rulers of Tyria.

I do not think the Pale Tree is hiding anything, she doesn’t even advocate attacking the Nightmare court and so far only other Sylvari say they can not return to the Dream. The Pale Tree herself never says that.

It’s kind of like ‘child throwing a fit because mom didn’t do what they wanted.’ Cadyern want to get revenge on the asura for pretty much torturing and experimenting on Malomedies (although to be fair they didn’t realize he was sentient and they did ask for peace after this) but when he asked the Pale Tree what they should do she said to accept peace, to not exact revenge. Cadyern could not see why his mother would tell him to ignore these natural feelings, why hold a tablet written by some centaur none of them even know in such high regard. He saw this as unnatural, and founded the Nightmare Court in hopes to get his mother to accept that these feelings of anger and malice as normal and necessary. They do seem to have attracted quite a bit of fanatics that are just violent psychopaths though.

“Once within the court, their converts are forced to commit dreadful acts that destroy every last ounce of virtue they may have left.”

So what is virtue?

temperance:
prudence:
courage:
justice:

and most would add love

The story lines follow this, join me my love, quickly becomes if i cant have you then die. The nightmare court kidnaps tortures murders and forces others along the same path removing any choice.

Infitrate the nightmare court and look at the choices set packs of hounds on frightened saplings and kick puppies. Though there may be some member who are not yet completely evil the essence of the court is.

I’d say their reason and motive are justified.

Imagine if the Pale Tree was actually influnenced by a tablet written by a brutal and hateful Centaur, and the majority of the Sylvari race were born to be full of negative emotion. And then some of the Sylvari decided that the tablet has changed their original nature, and they decided to form an organization to fight back and reverse the influence…now would you say they’re doing the wrong thing? That they are evil?

Unfortunately however, from the viewpoint of most other residents in the world of Tyria, their actions and ways of doing thing are very unacceptable, and thus Nightmare Court is deemed “evil”, just like the Kraits.

Blizt.3086:

I’d say their reason and motive are justified.

Questioning the message of the tablet is justified. But the Court doesn’t question, they don’t care what’s written in it.

Imagine if the Pale Tree was actually influnenced by a tablet written by a brutal and hateful Centaur, and the majority of the Sylvari race were born to be full of negative emotion. And then some of the Sylvari decided that the tablet has changed their original nature, and they decided to form an organization to fight back and reverse the influence…now would you say they’re doing the wrong thing? That they are evil?

They would be good, because they wouldn’t want to be brutal and hateful (i.e. evil) like the centaur. Just like the “current” Nightmare Court is evil because it does evil things whereas Ventari taught others how to be good to each other.
It may not be in Sylvari’s “original” nature to be good (I do think the Thorn Stalkers from GW1 are what Sylvari would be like) and maybe what the Court does is what Sylvari should have been doing but that doesn’t make them not evil.

Unfortunately however, from the viewpoint of most other residents in the world of Tyria, their actions and ways of doing thing are very unacceptable, and thus Nightmare Court is deemed “evil”, just like the Kraits.

The Court seeks to “redeem” the Sylvari through pain and suffering, I’m sorry but that’s evil. The Krait enslave and sacrifice other races, again, that’s evil.

Personally, I think the Nightmare court is evil, for a lot of the same reasons that the other people above me have said. Ends not justifying the means, cruelty to others, etc.

As a villain group thought I appreciate them because they are not a straight forward villainy. They are not doing it for the evulz, they are doing it to make sure that the sylvari are uniquely sylvari, not influenced by other races. They are trying to protect their race, which is an honorable goal.

However, I feel that one of the main messages of GW in general is standing united, and the Nightmare court, I feel, does not wish this. They wish to be so separate and pure from the rest of the races that they risk falling in with the Stonesummit Dwarves of old. They don’t seem to know, accept or understand that as a race they are quite young, and that it is okay for the young to be taught by the old.

Actually, if you take the story option “Where life goes, so must you” or whatever, we’re shown exactly what a sylvari born from an uninfluenced tree is like. He’s like almost every other Sylvari – relatively upstanding an honorable.

I don’t think it’s that black and white at all, both have they’re valid points :/ So you can’t call them just ‘evil’. If anything I would say a necessary evil for their goals which I would say had good intent to begin with, they just have a very intense sense of racial pride, and don’t want to follow something written by a non-Sylvari. The Nightmare court is truly fighting for a better tomorrow, by whatever means they do.
Besides, maybe the members of the Nightmare Court dreamed a different dream than other Sylvari and know something that we don’t o.o

The Nightmare Court, and the Nightmare itself, came to be after the first of the Secondborn (Caderyn) was basically scolded by the Pale Tree. One of the Firstborn was wounded by the Asura during their experiments, and Caderyn wanted to enact vengeance upon their species. The Pale Tree basically said it wasn’t the way of the Sylvari, and then turned her back on him. When he demanded an explanation, the Firstborn told him the Pale Tree would no longer hear him.

The Nightmare stems from Caderyn’s pride, anger, and probably most of all his jealousy of the Firstborn and their relationship with the Pale Tree. The Nightmare Court is not noble by any stretch of the imagination. They are quite evil in their methods and at their core, but the idea of ‘freeing the Sylvari from a life without true purpose’ is not inherently evil either.

I love the Nightmare Court because of that dichotomy between good and evil. There’s a wide range within the Court.

They torture, a lot. In certain respects they’re the most evil of the renegade factions (the Sons of Svanir are probably second, but are evil in a different way: because they serve a Dragon.).

Gundam Zephyr.6713:

The Nightmare Court, and the Nightmare itself, came to be after the first of the Secondborn (Caderyn) was basically scolded by the Pale Tree. One of the Firstborn was wounded by the Asura during their experiments, and Caderyn wanted to enact vengeance upon their species. The Pale Tree basically said it wasn’t the way of the Sylvari, and then turned her back on him. When he demanded an explanation, the Firstborn told him the Pale Tree would no longer hear him.

The Nightmare stems from Caderyn’s pride, anger, and probably most of all his jealousy of the Firstborn and their relationship with the Pale Tree. The Nightmare Court is not noble by any stretch of the imagination. They are quite evil in their methods and at their core, but the idea of ‘freeing the Sylvari from a life without true purpose’ is not inherently evil either.

I love the Nightmare Court because of that dichotomy between good and evil. There’s a wide range within the Court.

I have to agree with zephyr to get the whole pic about the nightmare court one must play through Act with wisdom, but act, All thing have the right to grow, where life goes so too should you. This give you the clear understand of what the nightmare court are really about and if giving the chance they will burn the pela tree to the ground.

Evil is subjective.

Do you define evil as inflicting pain and suffering? Then yes, you could consider them evil.

Or do you need to have evil intent to commit an evil act? In that case, I would argue that they’re not evil. The Nightmare Court rejects the Dream of the Pale Tree, as well as the teachings of Ventari. To do this, anything he prescribes, the Court does the exact opposite.

It is, perhaps, a naive rejection – a better way to split from the Pale Tree would be to simply ignore the teachings and go their own way – but one of the defining attributes of all Sylvari is naivete.

““If the sylvari are to survive, we must learn from the poison thorn and the stinging nettle, the vine that crushes the very sapling which holds it to the light. We will raise the nightmare. We will see Tyria remade in our image.

“We will grow until nightmare swallows the world.”" – http://www.arena.net/blog/dream-and-nightmare

No really, they’re evil. That’s taking over the world kind of evil. What do you think would happen after they corrupted the tree and changed the very nature of every sapling born after that? Become peaceful? No, they’re going to continue to cause pain and suffering to everything they can get their hands on. They will be a thousand times worse than the tablet, the tablet can be broken away from, the Nightmare, so far as we know, can not. The Court will force every Sylvari into Nightmare or slaughter them. How is that noble?

I must say that I really like the Nightmare Court. Especially Gavin, it felt like Wheatley’s betrayal from Portal once you put him in control. Only this time instead of a supercomputer he steals a superstag.

It feels a bit like some people like Gavin have a bit of resistance to the Nightmare Court. He still had some honor to fight it out one on one in the end, instead of letting his men finish it off themselves.

I miss him already. :I

Phydeaux.8534:

Or do you need to have evil intent to commit an evil act? In that case, I would argue that they’re not evil.

And how do you define evil intent? If it’s up to the person in question then almost no one is evil.

Dreamers are hardcore too, btw.

Seriously cutting off your enemy’s head and putting it on a stake (game of thrones style) to serve as warning on the fate of those that join the nightmare… Not exactly nice either.

I do think that NC are corrupted Silvary, but I don’t think that Silvary can’t be “bad” if they do not join the NC.

Gundam Zephyr.6713:

The Nightmare Court, and the Nightmare itself, came to be after the first of the Secondborn (Caderyn) was basically scolded by the Pale Tree. One of the Firstborn was wounded by the Asura during their experiments, and Caderyn wanted to enact vengeance upon their species. The Pale Tree basically said it wasn’t the way of the Sylvari, and then turned her back on him. When he demanded an explanation, the Firstborn told him the Pale Tree would no longer hear him.

The Nightmare stems from Caderyn’s pride, anger, and probably most of all his jealousy of the Firstborn and their relationship with the Pale Tree. The Nightmare Court is not noble by any stretch of the imagination. They are quite evil in their methods and at their core, but the idea of ‘freeing the Sylvari from a life without true purpose’ is not inherently evil either.

I love the Nightmare Court because of that dichotomy between good and evil. There’s a wide range within the Court.

Yeah, I sum up the Nightmare Court’s creation with Caderyn had mommy issues and Caithe was a jerk to him so he ran off to try to prove something. (Which makes it ironic that Caithe lost her beloved to the nightmare.)

I think the OP might be conflating the Nightmare Court and the Soundless. The later disconnects from the dream but does so in a way that doesn’t really hurt anyone. The former just seeks destruction to prove a point (and I see it as being extremely childish).

They’re not all evil, but some of them have been truly deeply corrupted beyond all sense and honor. The stag personal story you brought up is supposed to represent that the core idea behind the Nightmare Court isn’t truly evil, itself. It’s primarily their methods that are evil.

DrakeWurrum.6049:

They’re not all evil, but some of them have been truly deeply corrupted beyond all sense and honor. The stag personal story you brought up is supposed to represent that the core idea behind the Nightmare Court isn’t truly evil, itself. It’s primarily their methods that are evil.

One has to ask though, if a groups methods for obtaining their goals are ultimately evil, does that not make the group themselves evil? It’s not just about their ultimate Goal, and their ideology. If exterminating all who conflict with their final plan is part of their ideology, does that not, in fact, make them evil?

I was slumming around the Caledon Forest today and just wanted to share something about the origin of the nightmare itself since i’ve seen a lot of you post that Cadeyrn is the source of the nightmare. In the Briarthorn Den there is a renown heart that lets you disguise yourself as a nightmare courtier, when speaking to a few of the actual courtiers you can ask what the nightmare is and where it comes from. One says that it has always been there is the dark parts of our minds. The nightmare is not a concrete force or entity, it is the darkness in the collective dream as the Pale Tree collect all experiences and emotions, not just the nice ones.

Yes, Cadeyrn didn’t create the nightmare anymore than the Pale Tree creates specific dreams He was responsible for the creation of the Nightmare Court (where he is now, I have no idea) which is responsible for the growth of nightmare.

I can’t see anything benevolent within the Nightmare Court, they use torture, they cause pain, they lie and cheat, they enjoy causing strife and suffering. they mock and laugh and are very sadistic.

So yeah I really do not agree with anything in the OP personally. I feel that the Pale Tree is the most benevolent aspect in all of Tyria, which is what drew me to play a Sylvari. All the other races have something dark to them, only the Pale Tree is purely benevolent.

Caithe may use less than positive methods sometimes, but Sylvari are like children, they have much to learn, and in general both their methods and goals are far more benevolent than with any of the other races.

With Sylvari the concept is very clear, that the Pale Tree is the Light that the darkness of the Court tries to corrupt and attack, there is no ambivalence or doubt here.

Nageth.5648:

Yes, Cadeyrn didn’t create the nightmare anymore than the Pale Tree creates specific dreams He was responsible for the creation of the Nightmare Court (where he is now, I have no idea) which is responsible for the growth of nightmare.

Isn’t he a boss in TA story?

Oh yeah, he is that weird kitten fight (kind of funny that I actually meant to say kitten as in a young cat). See that fight was so weird/easy I completely forgot who it was. He really is a pathetic character in the story.

pyronix.4081:

Riku I think the reason I’m questioning the moral stance of the Nightmare Court is somehow related to what is happening right now in the real world. First of all, just as a disclaimer, I do not condone terrorism in any form, in the same way that spreading corruption/destruction is not a morally gray area for me – it is clearly evil. However, if you look deeper into the issue, there’s a reason why terrorists become terrorists. I would like to believe that people /sylvari are not inherently born evil.

FWIW, I think even those who talk about people being “born evil” don’t mean that most people are out there saying “I want to do all the evil I can.” Instead, they mean that people have evil tendencies that they usually indulge through rationalization (often not fully conscious rationalization) rather than through openly choosing evil. Most of the worst people in history claimed to be doing what was right, and history’s worst atrocities were called benevolent by their perpetrators. The problem isn’t that people are actively trying to do evil – the problem is that for whatever reason (be it an innocent mistake, deliberate self-deception, or anything in between), they’re convinced that the evil they’re doing is actually good (or, at least morally acceptable).

I think the same reasoning applies to the Nightmare Court. Sure, their motivations are noble (from their point of view), but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be characterized as evil – if it did, no one could really be called evil (except maybe certain sadistic criminals, although even they could possibly be characterized as insane rather than as being motivated by evil).

Yata.8932:

It’s kind of like ‘child throwing a fit because mom didn’t do what they wanted.’ Cadyern want to get revenge on the asura for pretty much torturing and experimenting on Malomedies (although to be fair they didn’t realize he was sentient and they did ask for peace after this) but when he asked the Pale Tree what they should do she said to accept peace, to not exact revenge. Cadyern could not see why his mother would tell him to ignore these natural feelings, why hold a tablet written by some centaur none of them even know in such high regard. He saw this as unnatural, and founded the Nightmare Court in hopes to get his mother to accept that these feelings of anger and malice as normal and necessary. They do seem to have attracted quite a bit of fanatics that are just violent psychopaths though.

Yeah, this is my feeling about the NC – they’re the sylvari equivalent of kids throwing a tantrum, basically. At the lighter end of the scale, they’re like brooding adolescent Goth types, even a kittenarming in that way; at the darker end of the scale, they’re fully evil and corrupted.

I love that they’re there, and I love the way they’re trying to get the Ventari philosophy ditched. That’s quite a deep and properly tragic conflict right there. (The essence of tragedy being that both sides in a conflict have some right on their side.)

Something about the issue the NC has reminds me of some uplift factions in transhuman themed media, whose goals are to seperate themselves from regular humans and develop their own racial identity before joining again.

Some of them really get extreme, because being a dolphin with the intellect of a human surely brings up different morals and cultural standards than a regular human.

Hmmm
Lets say the Dream is the Matrix. The NC view themselves as the humans who experienced reality. Now they want all sylvari to take the blue pill by force. Which means torture and pain. But in the end, hey you are not living in a dreamy fairy tale world.
I can see their reasoning. I actually believe that many courtiers are not commiting evil acts because they love it, but because its simply one of the surest ways to “help” other sylvari.
Then of course, some people get influenced by the method and truly enjoy it. Its part of being unique personalities at work. Some enjoy it more than others. Remember Bercilak from the Green Knight personal story. He truly was a despicable kitten even mocking Ventaris teachings in doing so. While there was a quantum of honor left in him (he agreed to duel honorably), he threatened others into doing what he wanted and beat up weaker sylvari for fun. (fridge brilliance: even his first Personal Story mission is called “Mockery of Death”, and mockery is a theme with him)

Gavin is one of the best characters I’ve met so far, IMO. Most Courtiers are rather stereotypical moustache-twirling villains: extremely obvious, extremely stupid. He actually had me fooled until the chase sequence, when something he rang a warning bell in the back of my mind, but even that wasn’t blatant enough to see through him right away. So well done there! He’s still a badguy without any doubt, and good riddance when he dies, but he was refreshing all the same.

I figured Gavin out pretty quickly but it was nice that he wasn’t chaotic evil and tried to tie you down to a railroad track. He might have fooled me if he didn’t flip so quickly.

pyronix.4081:

This question keeps bugging me. I have nothing against the Pale Tree and their cohorts but a lot of times (especially if you get the White Stag hunt option) I feel that there’s something intrinsically wrong with the Pale Tree which is why the Nightmare court exists.

I keep getting this freedom fighters vibe from the Nightmare Court. I mean, sure they want to spread hate and despair and a lot of the Nightmare Court characters ONLY want to spread hate and despair but when you actually think about the goal of the Nightmare Court, they want to be free from the influence of the Pale Tree because they would rather prefer to face life realistically (love with loss, joy with pain, dream with the shattering truth of reality). The execution might be flawed but the intent is not evil – it is actually noble.

It’s like the Grove is North Korea, you know. They’re all seemingly happy but it’s really just a cult of personality, and some of these Nightmare court guys have woken up to the reality of the rest of the world around them and realized that hey… things aren’t so peachy.

Well, but there’s the group in the 15-25? zone I think that broke from the pale tree and they aren’t considered evil though. They call them the dreamless or some such. I think the Nightmare court is intended to be the evil version of them. Maybe I’m wrong though.

pyronix.4081:

So I apparently posted this before reading their write up on the official GW2 wiki. Here’s a snippet that somehow corroborates what I’m talking about.

“The primary goal of the Nightmare Court is to corrupt the Pale Tree herself, bringing her around to their twisted ideals so that the sylvari may be freed from the shackles of Ventari’s Tablet and replace this philosophy of a centaur and a human by one which is uniquely sylvari.

First of all, I would like to say that, in a way, I agree with you. The pale tree is like a superior entity that “dictates” other sylvaris what is right and wrong. In a way, I understand it’s indeed possible to perceive the Nightmare Court as some kind of liberators, freedom fighters. But, there are several important elements that go against that.

First is pure logic. Sylvaris can turn to the nightmare court, but not come back. So, with the pale tree, they still have the choice of right and wrong, whereas with the court, they don’t. That’s a first clue to the fact that the court is indeed evil.

Second, from your quote, we can deduce the “open mindness” of the Pale Tree. They are capable of acknowledging the progress of other species, and make a positive use of this progress for themselves. Other races showed them that it’s possible to live peacefully with one another, and they apply these teachings to themselves. Thus, it shows us the universality of their knowledge and wisdom.

Third and last : Sorry Anet, but on this one you didn’t try to be subtle at all. I must say that we’re almost at a Godwin point on this one. I mean, let me quote that again :
… and replace this philosophy of a centaur and a human by one which is uniquely sylvari.

You couldn’t be so obvious. I mean, purity of the race, does it ring any bell for you ? In that case, the nightmare court is the exact opposite of the pale’s tree wisdom. They are in favor of narrow-minded point of view, xenophobic and definitely racist. They could have made the Nightmare Court’s boss with a bad temper and a little mustache, everybody would have guessed his name. Let’s just say that on this one, Anet tried to be as obvious as they could.

So, sorry to disappoint you, but I don’t think there is anything to save there. The Nightmare Court is obviously full of bad, brainwashed & coerced people, and between them and the Pale Tree, if one must be compared to North Korea, it would be the Nightmare, definitely. Simple fact that once they are turned they cannot go back is proof enough.

I have heard this expressed a couple of times and I honestly don’t get it when people get a “freedom fighter” vibe from them. It is pounded in to your skull from day one in the starting zone that they torture and otherwise break people for their purposes. The party line can sound wonderful but if it is supported by those kinds of tactics they’ve lost all misunderstood rebel status in my mind.

I think a big problem with the argument that the NC might not be evil is that you have to see the problem from an extremely detached mindset to think that.

Imagine, instead of the big picture that maybe they have a point, that your friend has gone missing. Maybe they’re dead, maybe they’re shaking in a cell awaiting their turn to be mutilated, or maybe they’ve joined the court and they won’t hesitate to go after you. Your partner’s gone missing. Are they being tortured now? Are they being made an example to the others; rotting in a cell to sicken their cellmates? They could be fine, but they wouldn’t go out for days without telling you…

Is it safe to step out of your home? Stray too far from the path and the nightmare hounds might be at your heels. If you survive, will you have wanted to? If the only way you got away was because you ran faster than the others, how would you deal with the guilt knowing they suffer so you could escape?

Would you be able to see their good side when your captors are laughing and debating how to slice up you and your friends today like you would discuss what you’re having for lunch? Imagine having to make the choice to let them torture you to death or becoming one of them and doing the same to your loved ones.

I based these questions based on what npcs in the game have faced from the Nightmare Court. Are they real people? No, but you can’t completely remove the human, or Sylvari in this case, element from this. Even if the Court did have a valid point, it doesn’t, what they’re doing is downright evil. They attack innocents without remorse. Hell, they even go after non-Sylvari. I’ve had to rescue several packs of Skritt just today.