Pirates and Scarlet

Pirates and Scarlet

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Posted by: Jake.1430

Jake.1430

Tell me, what path would they be considered?

They aren’t with the normal “Dream” sylvari(Good guys)

I don’t think they are considered Nightmare

And The Soundless aren’t bad, just don’t like emotion

So what are they? Just neutral

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Posted by: FlamingFoxx.1305

FlamingFoxx.1305

The soundless aren’t avoiding emotion, they don’t like the tumult of constantly being connected to the Dream and to the other Sylvari through it – they just want to experience their own emotions for themselves.

Obviously the pirates aren’t NC, it wouldn’t make sense if they were given how the NC react to and treat others. I would say that yes they are just regular Dreamers. But I would point out that ‘Dream’ Sylvari aren’t necessarily the good guys. Our character and a lot of the ‘Dream’ Sylvari at the Grove are indeed “good”, but there are plenty of Sylvari you encounter throughout the world who live in a more morally gray state and are still dreamers – Canach is a great example, he’s not Nightmare Court, but his actions are kind of iffy. He was trying to do good, but that doesn’t mean he managed it. Sylvari are just as prone to regular old corruption as any of the other races (which I mean in the sense of doing things for money, pleasure, friendship etc.) so it’s quite feasible for the pirates to still be Dreamers and commit pretty nasty acts.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

What the Fox said. “keekeekeekeekeekeekee!”

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Posted by: Weindrasi.3805

Weindrasi.3805

I’d say they are either Dream sylvari or Soundless.
When Scarlet was connected to the dream, she worked with the Inquest and did a lot of morally awful things. Sylvari may start out ingrained with Ventari’s teachings, but as they go out into the world, they will form their own moral code based on their experience.
Nightmare Court are unique because they see themselves as liberators—they want to actively fight against the Ventari tablet and save their race from what they see as slavery.
Sylvari like Scarlet and the pirates, on the other hand, disagree with the tablet—but they don’t care whether others follow it or not. They’re out for themselves—Dream and Nightmare aren’t as important as personal gain. Scarlet said it best herself: “I reject the notion that that I must choose the Dream or be lost to Nightmare.” The place where Scarlet erred is that she assumed she was the only one who felt that way. In fact, many Sylvari feel that way.

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Posted by: FlamingFoxx.1305

FlamingFoxx.1305

I would have to disagree just on the basis that other than Scarlet we aren’t presented with a single other Sylvari from our Pale Tree who doesn’t fall into the category of either believing in the tablet (Dreamers and Soundless), or believing in Nightmare.

It’s quite possible to be a pirate and still follow the tenets of the tablet.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

We see that the Dreamers each interpret the tablet in different ways and find a balance with it in their own lives according to what works for them. I’d figure the pirates were no different.

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Posted by: Jenstone.6891

Jenstone.6891

What if they are from the “other Tree”?

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Posted by: FlamingFoxx.1305

FlamingFoxx.1305

What if they are from the “other Tree”?

I would say that it’s highly unlikely, there definitely would have been a big deal made of it if that were the case.

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Posted by: Jenstone.6891

Jenstone.6891

What if they are from the “other Tree”?

I would say that it’s highly unlikely, there definitely would have been a big deal made of it if that were the case.

Maybe… or it could be new plot twist they may develop later.
Hence not making a big deal about it.
I remember during the story line, that one guy did not seem to come from the pale tree and yet, that is where that idea ended…
I don’t remember that guy even being mentioned again… so maybe it is a new story line down the road….
Granted, is there a possibility of them being from the other tree.. yes
probability?….. slim

But it is an interesting thought…

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

However, it’s also a plot point that the Nightmare Court knowing about the Other Tree could have serious ramifications – thus, it is kept secret. If even a significant majority of pirate sylvari were from another tree, I don’t think it would stay secret for long.

My gut feeling is that they basically don’t take a philosophical standpoint. They don’t follow the Tablet (or if they do, only do so in a tokenistic sense) but they don’t care enough about others following the tablet to go on a crusade to turn other sylvari away from it. Unlike the Soundless, they also don’t care about tuning out the Dream enough to engage in Soundless-level meditation (or maybe they’ve reached a point where they can tune it out effortlessly).

It’s also possible, incidentally, that there are Nightmare Court among the pirates that don’t advertise that affiliation. For recent converts, engaging in piracy and the associated atrocities is a good way of sending evil experiences to the Dream – once they’ve reached the point where they’re sufficiently jaded that this no longer does it, they return to the fold.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

Scarlet obviously wasn’t from the “other tree”, and if any of the pirates are, they are keeping very quiet about it. Assuming that there is another tree.

And I agree that if there are any nightmare court with the pirates, they must be in disguise. Pirates would probably view the court with suspicion. It would be like an extremist terrorist group hanging out with a bunch of drug dealers.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Actually, there has been quite a bit of evidence of links between terrorist groups and drug smuggling – it’s a source of revenue for them that also happens to hurt the (usually Western) destination country. It’s a win-win for them.

Relating back to the original discussion – it probably depends on the band, but my suspicion is that most of the pirate groups we fight wouldn’t care if one of their members was Nightmare Court, as long as they promised not to turn their attentions on the band. And from a courtier’s perspective that they can do more harm as part of the band than as an individual, why would they turn on it? I could see some captains even preferring courtiers – the courtiers are less likely to jockey for rank or for a bigger share of the booty, they’re happy as long as they can inflict lots of pain.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: FlamingFoxx.1305

FlamingFoxx.1305

But the Courtiers are pretty absolute about their cause, they’re bent on turning everyone to their viewpoint and while yes they are pretty open to subterfuge, I can’t see a Courtier genuinely joining the pirates unless the pirates were also Courtiers. They might be willing to use the pirates as a means to an end for a little while, but at some point they’re going to want to turn them to Nightmare or kill them – and I don’t see why a group of pirates would allow someone that unstable into their midst (Scarlet being an exception since she had the means to fund them and offered them power etc.)

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Actually, they’re not bent on turning everyone to their viewpoint.

They’re bent on turning the Sylvari to their viewpoint. Non-sylvari… they don’t care. Torturing a non-sylvari can still contribute to their goal because it sends the torturer’s memories of the torture into the Dream, but apart from that, they don’t care what other races think or do.

So for our hypothetical pirate nightmare sylvari – the other pirates are a means to an end. They help the Courtier to commit atrocities. At some stage the courtier in question will want to move on because they’ve become jaded and the deeds they perform as pirates, when committed on non-sylvari, no longer contribute to the Nightmare because they’ve been there and done that – however, this point does not mean that it’s time to turn on the pirate band they were with.

After all, notwithstanding the possibility that they’d lose the fight, at this point they need to start turning their skills on other sylvari to contribute further to the Nightmare. Killing a bunch on non-sylvari pirates doesn’t contribute to the nightmare, and even non-Nightmare Court pirates that may be among the band… are probably contributing to the Nightmare anyway through their piracy, even if they’re not doing so out of ideology. Conversely, letting the pirates live can contribute to the Nightmare – every sylvari that falls victim to those pirates afterwards will be sending the memory of their fate to the Dream, and thus contributing to the Nightmare.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: FlamingFoxx.1305

FlamingFoxx.1305

I meant all Sylvari, and the discussion was about Sylvari as pirates

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

My point still stands.

Let’s assume, for argument’s sake, that we have a pirate band of all sylvari, so as to remove the ‘Courtiers don’t care about nonsylvari’ aspect. For a Courtier, there’s still little point in turning on that band just because. Even if the rest of the band aren’t officially Courtiers, then if they’re committing piracy at the level that most of the pirate bands we see – the Aetherblades, Covingtons, and so on – then the non-Courtier sylvari are still committing atrocities and sending those memories to contribute to the Nightmare, even if they’re not doing it for reasons of ideology. Furthermore, the ideology of the Court is to give sylvari the ‘freedom’ to choose different paths than that laid down by the Tablet – becoming a genuine pirate is already choosing a path that contravenes Ventari’s teachings, and thus the sylvari pirates are already doing what the Nightmare Court wants the sylvari to do.

The hypothetical courtier among non-courtier sylvari pirates might still put feelers out for potential recruits, but if the rest of the crew isn’t interested, then the courtier’s response is probably going to be more along the lines of “Then keep carrying on as you are, that’s good too!” than “MURDER!!!”. In fact, the hypothetical courtier might want to avoid making too overt a pitch lest they end up accidentally giving the pirates a moment of realisation that pushes them back to the Tablet.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

I think a big factor is in the motivation. pirates don’t automatically commit atrocities. remember, Cobiah Mariner and crew were pirates. In a pirate subculture, the rules may be loose but the Captains will is law. Unless that captain is a Courtier, they aren’t going to go out of their way to endanger the crew and the ships in order to commit atrocities the way a Courtier would. For pirates primary motivation may be advaenture and money. While not mutually exclusive, eventually the motivations and ideaologies are going to clash in a big way because unless the captain enjoys atrocities for atrocities sake, it won’t be enough for true believers like the Courtiers.

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

Also, pirates generally prefer that their targets surrender without a fight. This allows them to capture their prize intact.

That conflicts with the desire of the nightmare court to inflict mayhem. If your ship got a reputation for inflicting harm on crews who had surrendered, it would make subsequent acts of piracy more difficult.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

@Dustfinger: Depends on the pirates. Some of the pirate gangs we fight ingame definitely do seem to be going out beating up on others for the fun of it.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

Pirates and Scarlet

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

We don’t really know a lot of specific motivation behind them. Beating somebody up if it’s convenient while your already doing something else is going to look really similar to doing it just for the sake of doing it if we don’t know what that the real goal is.