Guild Wars 2

A friend got me thinking during some RP tonight, and once I start thinking I can’t sleep. It’s easier for me to do so if I can get all my thoughts out. This might be long, so just stay with me I suppose.

1) How would Sylvari -really- look a gender among themselves? We know from ANet that as far as relationships and sexuality goes, they don’t care much one way or another, and they’re more focused on the other Sylvari’s personality/interests/goals/etc than their gender. But does that extend to themselves as well? How do they view their own gender? Would a Sylvari-that-appears-female really consider herself female? Would she be female just because she looked female? Is it something more mental? Something they’re taught?

I’m not trying to look at this from a real life perspective, so I’m not trying to get people to think about it from the way that normal human beings would. I’m talking about plant people with no concept of gender, where reproduction isn’t a concern, and love is about love for the sake of love. So would they have gender at all? Would it just be “I am Sylvari and I am me” rather than “I am a Sylvari male/female”?

2) We know Sylvari have many of the same functions that Humans do. Breathing, eating, sleeping, etc. Can these be suspended in any way? Like, could a Sylvari just hold their breath for a really long time underwater? Do they breathe in the same kind of way? We know that people need oxygen for their muscles, which is why we have to breathe, to keep a constant flow of the stuff. What about Sylvari? They don’t have muscles, so do they need this constant flow? I imagine they’d still have to eat, but sleeping is another curious one. Sleeping fufills many purposes for Humans(From processing short term memory into long, recharging the mind, letting muscles rest, letting the body repair damage from the day before, etc), but what sort of purpose would it fufill for a Sylvari?

3) We know that Sylvari can grow and shape plants. They do it often, they speak to plants, and Shapers grow their trees. But Sylvari are also plants, in a very literal sense. So can they do the same thing to themselves? What if a Sylvari wants to be taller/shorter/fatter/thinner? We know that they can just sprout new clothing or hair, so what about other more permanent things? Could they do one of those things I mentioned? What about other stuff? Like adding a second foot, or regrowing an arm that they’ve lost in a fight? Come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve seen any Sylvari mention any kind of permanent injury at all. It almost seems like if they receive treatment quickly enough that they can repair to 100% or very near in short order.

4) What sort of organs and such do they have? We know they don’t have actual hearts, as ANet has said as much, and they don’t have things that we would associate with hearts- bloodflow, blood pressure, etc. But Sylvari still reference their heart a few times. One even says something along the lines of “My heart was beating so fast!” ANet oversight or maybe a Human expression for excitement? Or do they have heart-like structures that perform a similar function in another way?

I probably have more of these, but this is all that was on my mind right now. And anyone else can go ahead and ask anything they want. Might as well!

A lot of this has been answered in-game,

1. The sylvari view there sex both “I am a sylvari” and by gender depending on the emotional role as when in love they will proclaim as Sylvari and refer to outsiders there lovers gender in a statement but for as far as they care they are simply a being much as a plant is just a plant(even tho plants in real life also have male female sexes but that’s a whole another subject)

2. and 4.
The Sylvari’s are based off a human skeleton and form( largely do to being grown from a graveyard) and do have lungs and breath and even a heart(much different then a humans as its for the use of sap like blood) and other human organs that have been adapted for more plant like use and are required to eat and sleep to retain energy.They do not have a heart pulse as there’s is more in place as a mental thing as there whole body simple has a very light flow of sap like fluid.
There’s a Sylvari in one of the 70 zones that states hes been injured badly but his blood/sap has closed the wound and he will be fine(would love to see art work on this) much like a tree would. Ree has also stated there eating is much like a way a planet gathers sunlight but in a humanoid form.An inquest log says there there lungs are like a cotton bag and there heart was like a rooted seed and then goes on about there need more subjects….

3.There height is linked to there bone structure(this is a hard one has it is bone like but no sylvari has ever really lost a limb and there no mention on it anywhere that I have found) so I doubt that can be changed but there weight is a good question as there’s real big example of what all they can do with there powers in the growing area.There blood is like sap and can close the wounds so healing come rather quick there bones if anything would be a hallowed stiff root like substance that carries all there planty bits around so I wouldn’t doubt they could in time regrow a arm with medical help or form a sap/stump like cap without medical help

But ANet said they don’t have hearts. Came right out and said it.

So the Inquest was either wrong, or mistaking something else for it.

Its not a heart as we see it its a heart shaped organ that serves as a mental thing as being plants there whole body is basically a heart as sap just flows. More or less you answered you own question with the “my heats beating so fast” as a show of emotion.

@TheKow, you need to use a bit more punctuation, like commas. Your posts are a bit hard to read.

@Illushia, if you haven’t already, check out the Wiki articles about Sylvari (provided by ArenaNet at the very top of this page). If you have already, and you feel you’ve scoured the Internet but haven’t found your answers, consider this: How do real plants function?

ArenaNet has demonstrated they’ve done a fantastic job at providing a lot of details for this unique race in fantasy RPG. If there are details we’re still unsure of, I’m sure more will come. In the meantime, consider the basic functions of a plant and a human and how they’d compare.

We know that sylvari can’t photosynthesize and they can’t respire through their skin. They need to eat and breath as a human would, as stated by ArenaNet though various sources. They wear breathing masks during underwater combat, too. With this in mind, consider carnivorous plant-life – like the famous Venus Flytraps – and how they digest food. And though we don’t have an Earth-based example of plants that breath, I’m sure there’s a concept that seems plausible (such as the Inquest example that TheKow gave above).

As far as the “beating heart” goes, we know that sylvari have sap for blood. Sap does not need to be “pumped” to flow, which fits with ArenaNet’s statement that sylvari have no pulse. There might be a “heart-like organ” inside a sylvari, but it would not function as a human heart would.

I hope this helps a little. Keep asking questions!

These are tough questions to answer, partly because I think people will approach them differently based on how they like to roleplay. I think of myself as a roleplay “improvisationalist.” I like to start off with a game’s lore but to get creative with it, to use it as a framework for telling my own stories, or for mulling over bigger questions within it. I find that a lot of roleplayers are what I call roleplay “purists.” They prefer to strictly adhere to the game’s cannon.

So, here’s how I’m inclined to approach your questions. I tend to think of the sylvari as being almost like artificial intelligences, like magical robots or clones. The Pale Tree absorbed all of these memories and experiences from the sapient life forms that inhabit Tyria. At a certain point, it began creating clone-like beings based on these imprints using plant-like material—beings whose personalities were shaped by what they’d witnessed in the Dream, i.e., the memories and experiences the Pale Tree had absorbed. I see sylvari as kind of being like recently awakened androids who know a lot about the world, and who have memories they’ve borrowed from others based on their imprinting in the dream, but who are experiencing the world for the first time, and trying to figure out, in a way, what it means to be sylvari.

(Incidentally I have to give credit to Braghi’s comments on this forum for inspiring how I think about the sylvari: http://guildwars2roleplayers.com/forum/m/2737230/viewthread/2329469-cant-decide-if-i-like-sylvari/page/2)

Anyhow, this approach shapes how I think about your questions. I’m inclined to say that there need not be biological explanations for why the syvlari are the way they are. What’s the biological explanation for why they grow leaves to cover up their private parts? Well, there isn’t one. They grow them so that they don’t offend the modesty of other races. Why do they drink and eat and whatnot? Well, because they’ve created to experience things in human-like ways, and eating and drinking are an important part of our life experiences. So, whenever someone raises this question about why sylvari eat food, or whether they have hearts, or whether they need sunlight, I’m inclined to say that there physiology doesn’t need to make sense. They’re magical beings who’ve been "programmed’ to experience things in person-like ways.

I approach stuff about gender from similar perspective. I’m roleplaying my sylvari as engaged in a philosophic quest to simply understand who he is—something that making him wrestle with the meanings of things he witnessed, but also with some of the questions involving gender that the OP raises. He’s male. But he’s trying to figure out what, if anything, that actually means to him.

Roleplay purists would probably disagree with me, though, on these issues. They’d probably say that there has to be a lore-appropriate explanation for why sylvari have hearts, or what gender means to them. That’s fine. I don’t see any problem with roleplaying them that way. Personally, though, I like to approach the lore surrounding them as a chance to think philosophically about, say, gender.

@escherbach, You make good points, but I’d recommend revising your view on the “android” bit. Your assumption that the dream sylvari have are memories would be grossly inaccurate, considering the options a sylvari is given during character creation and the opening cutscene. They are not visions of the past but visions of the future. The Crescent Moon Shield, the Green Knight and the White Stag are all dreams a sylvari can have that are events that take place after they awake. I don’t believe you understand The Dream the way it has been presented through various sources.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dream_of_Dreams
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dream_and_Nightmare

A roleplay “purist,” as you put it, operates within a standard of rules and guidelines set forth by the author. Often purist prefer this in order to avoid conflict from information that comes up later. This doesn’t mean that a purist doesn’t think philosophically, such as about a sylvari’s gender, but it does mean they prefer to avoid making grand assumptions that may prove false later on.

@deepwinter. I don’t think my take on the Dream in incompatible with what you’re pointing out about character creation. I’m suggesting that the Dream is a state of quasi-consciousness in which the sylvari receive their “programming” for interacting with the world. This includes lots of things. They’re given basic survival skills and knowledge of the world by absorbing past memories, but, as you note, they’re also given visions of their future.

Not to sound too defensive, but I’m familiar with the wiki pages you linked. The first one supports me on this:

“In this state [the Dream], they experience visions of the outer world and become acquainted with it through the past experiences of other sylvari. In this way, they learn things both trivial and vital about their future lives.”

“The Dream is described as being like a well, into which memories and thoughts of sylvari are poured. "

So, yeah, I don’t see why we can’t both be right on this issue. You’re right that sylvari see visions of their future, but they’re also given a portion of their race’s collective past experiences. I think there’s some indication in the game, too, that they dabble in the memories of other races as well: the Pale Tree absorbed Ventari’s teachings, we see other races’ experiences/memories in the opening tutorial battle, etc.

One last point. I definitely do not mean to suggest that roleplay purists aren’t philosophical. I’m not trying to attack their character. I see the difference between improvisationalists and purists more as a matter of how they respond to the wiggle room within a game’s lore. The purist prefers to adhere pretty closely to the lore in order, as you put it, to avoid making grand assumptions. The improvisationalist like to riff on the lore in these cases. Don’t get me wrong. They respect lore. They don’t want do roleplaying that contradicts it. But they like exploring when something is left open a bit by the lore—seeing how great of range of stories they can tell within that wiggle room. I don’t think that one approach is necessarily any better than the other. They both have their pros and cons.

My conflict is your implying that sylvari have somehow absorbed the identities and personalities of the dead upon which The Pale Tree was planted – that they’re plant-copies of the humans buried there.

A similar issue has come up before concerning the appearance of the sylvari. Why did The Pale Tree make them look more human? Some have suggested she absorbed the decaying nutrients from the mass grave upon which she was planted. By doing so, she also “programed,” as you put it, certain personalities into the sylvari based upon the dead that were buried there. While I don’t know why the sylvari appear human (other than the “that’s what the artist wanted” argument), I protest against the idea that fertilizer can invoke its deceased identity and personality upon the plant-life that it nourished.

What we know about The Dream and the dreaming sylvari are these:
- The experiences that other sylvari have are added to the pool of knowledge in The Dream
- The Pale Tree assures her sylvari have a basic understanding (reading, writing, tenants of the tablet, survival skills, a name and knowledge that she loves them)
- Each sylvari draws a portion of The Dream

The latter has been described as “that of a bowl filling with water – each developing sylvari only takes a small, random measure of the information and memories.” This “water” is the collected experiences older sylvari have. If one sylvari tastes what roasted moa is like, a developing sylvari might also gain knowledge of what it tastes like without ever eating it.

Note that these “past experiences” are focused on sylvari experiences. While in the opening cinematic we see battles, remember that The Pale Tree is old (she can be seen in Guild Wars 1 in-game as a small tree) and has seen many things in the past 250 years. Images of war does not mean knowledge or memories absorbed from graves.

That’s a fair response. I don’t think I intended to be quite so literal—i.e, that sylvari just are plant-based copies of humans buried under the tree—but I can see why my using a term like “clone” to describe them would suggest that to you. My suggestion was more that the Pale Tree has absorbed a range of experiences over the course of the 250+ years that she’s been around, that the Dream is a manifestation of these collective experiences, that what a sylvari witnesses in the Dream shapes their identity, and that the Pale Tree shapes this identity (which I liken to programming) by influencing what aspects of the Dream they experience in their prenatal stage. I still find that thinking of them as clone-like is helpful heuristic for me in terms of trying to get into their heads—trying to imagine what it would be like to be born with all of these confusing memories of things I’d witnessed in the dream, with a kind of abstract knowledge of the world around me but without having experienced it yet, and to be defined by an intense curiosity to better understand myself and my world. But, yeah, you’re right, I shouldn’t be suggesting that my sylvari is a plant-clone of a particular human being that once lived in Tyria.

Does it really matter why Sylvari are imitating humans? The fact is that they do, and that effectively answers most questions about their biology.
“(Why) do Sylvari do [this thing]?”
“(Yes/No,) because humans do [this thing] and Sylvari imitate humans.”
(Why do Sylvari use their heart as a metaphor for their emotions? Because humans do and Sylvari imitate humans.)
I think the reason for that is pretty irrelevant (except for speculation funtime of course).

As for gender, I doubt we will ever get an in-depth answers about that from the game/the devs, because gender is an incredibly touchy topic in our society, and upsetting the cis gender binary can cause way more backlash than a video game company would ever want.
For what it’s worth, my personal view is that gender is just as innate to Sylvari as it is to humans. You are [gender] because you know you are. But unlike humans, Sylvari society does not attempt to dictate the genders of others because of physical details, so unlike humans, Sylvari would have no troubles at all with that flat-chested Sylvari with dangly bits actually being a woman, or agender, or androgyne or anything else not ‘man’. If a Sylvari says “I am [gender]”, the other Sylvari simply take them by their word.
I’m not basing this on any sort of ingame hints, because as I said, ArenaNet can’t afford to publicly shake it up too much, even if they wanted to, it’s just my own basic reasoning. (And a little wishful thinking. It’s theoretically just as possible that Sylvari, in their move to imitate humans, also imitate the human society’s treatment of gender, and the only thing they deviate in is their treatment of sexuality.)