Guild Wars 2

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Once again this topic contains spoilers. If you have a solid distaste for spoilers then please navigate out of this topic.

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Fair warning, this is a lot of text. I’ve broken it up into chunks to make it easier to get through (and also because it’s around 16500 characters and the forum allows 5001).

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There’s a theory floating around that I don’t buy into, which basically follows along the lines of the Pale Tree either being a dragon or being a dragon’s champion, and that consequently sylvari are dragon minions.

I’ll be referring to this as the “Sylvari Dragon Theory” (or SDT) for the sake of this post.

The first version of this theory (that the Pale Tree is a dragon) states that the Pale Tree is buttering up the other races in order to defeat the dragons before ultimately conquering Tyria for herself, uncontested.

The second version (that the Pale Tree is a champion) claims that our playable sylvari are “corrupted” as the Pale Tree was influenced away from the dragon by Ventari’s teachings.

Regardless of which specific version is believed or discussed, the overall concept is based in some fairly decent evidence.

1. There’s a slot for (what is implied to be) a sixth dragon in the Crucible of Eternity dungeon. As there have only been five dragons discussed up to this point in time, the reasonable conclusion is that there is a sixth dragon floating about that we’re not yet aware of. The SDT suggests that the Pale Tree is either this dragon or its liberated champion.

2. There are no risen sylvari, icebrood sylvari, branded sylvari, or sylvari-like destroyers in Guild Wars 2. As dragons are not known to corrupt each others’ minions, the SDT suggests that the sylvari, who are not yet known to be corruptible, might therefore be the minions of a dragon.

3. Just as dragons have more than one champion to create their armies with, there is more than one entity similar to the Pale Tree that creates sylvari. We know that the Pale Tree is not unique in Tyria for her anatomy, but rather for her relationship with Ventari. The SDT suggests that the Pale Tree is a break-away champion and that her children are thus break-away minions. (In versions of the theory that believe the Pale Tree herself is a dragon, this tends to be omitted or unknown.)

4. The sylvari are not known to be created via corruption or turning such as Jormag’s and Kralkatorrik’s minions are. However, we know from Primordius that not all dragons must create their armies in this way. Therefore, the SDT suggests that the Pale Tree creates her armies in the image of other creatures (similarly to Primordius), which is supported by the appearances of the Sylvari and Sylvan Hounds.

5. The sylvari appeared in Tyria 25 years ago (or 23 years ago, it’s unclear), around the same time as the dragons’ awakenings. The SDT suggests that this is more than coincidence and that it implies the sylvari are dragon minions.

There are other ideas that have been passed around but for the most part some combination of these five thoughts seems to constitute the majority of the Sylvari Dragon Theory within the community. I personally do not believe that the sylvari are related to the dragons any more than the humans or jotun are. Let me break down each of the previous five points with my thoughts/rebuttals and then suggest a theory of my own.

1.
I can agree with the belief that there are six or more dragons in Tyria rather than just the known five, and I can agree that the Crucible of Eternity would suggest exactly that. However, I don’t believe it is suggesting anything to do with the sylvari beyond a coincidentally shared habitat.

I believe that it’s more likely to be an actual dragon, still sleeping beneath the Maguuma Jungle and/or Tarnished Coast. No dragon has risen in that region yet (while others have risen elsewhere to the east and south). In addition, the fact that the Inquest are the ones studying it further implies that the dragon would be in this area. The Inquest are constantly referred to as immoral etc, and don’t seem to place a lot of stock in life (to a degree noticeably beyond the reasonable expectations of other asura).

I believe that the Inquest have been collecting data/power from a dragon that they’ve discovered out in the jungle somewhere, and aren’t sharing knowledge of its existence with others for their own selfish means. To me, the evidence of a sixth, unknown dragon portal in the Crucible of Eternity suggests that, not that the sylvari are part of the problem. It wouldn’t be the first time that asura have utilized (or tried to utilize) the power of a sleeping dragon to power their devices (see: Primordius in GW1), nor would it be the first time that a dragon has slept largely unobserved for an extended period of time. Maguuma is known to be an odd, magical, mysterious place teeming with energies, so it really is the perfect place for a sleeping dragon to mask itself and its power.

2.
I don’t believe that the lack of risen sylvari etc is evidence of anything more than the lack of risen sylvari etc. Unlike every other race in Tyria, the sylvari are less than 30 years of age. They weren’t around the last time the dragons were awake, and even now some of the dragons have awoken before the Firstborn emerged. I believe that the lack of corrupted sylvari is evidence of the dragons’ overall lack of knowledge regarding them as a race and as a species. For example, even though the quaggan lived out in the middle of the ocean and Jormag slept in the Far Shiverpeaks, we still see icebrood quaggans in Tyria.

I believe that’s evidence of knowledge of the quaggan race (or of its ancestors) more than I believe it’s evidence of the sylvari being minions. I’ll expand on this in my counter-theory.

3.
I don’t believe that Ventari’s teachings corrupted the Pale Tree. I believe that the Pale Tree is normal for her kind, and that Ventari’s teachings provided nothing more than additional knowledge for her children. The Dream is filled with the experiences of both the Pale Tree and her children, so it’s reasonable to believe that Ventari’s presence in the dream is nothing more than a piece of her past that she feels is relevant or useful. Ventari is the one that raised her and loved for her, so she remembers him by passing him on to her fruit. In a sense, he lives on through her.

I also don’t believe that the Pale Tree could reasonably be a dragon champion. Most champions are very strong and well-protected. They’re very important to their dragons, and when they break away they’re killed (see: Glint). The Pale Tree started as a magical seed found deep in a magical jungle. I can’t in good faith believe that a dragon would allow for its champions to be so vulnerable. A seed can be eaten, destroyed, dehydrated, stolen, moved, etc. which is something I don’t believe any dragon would reasonably risk. To support that and the idea that losing a champion is a heavy blow to a dragon, I’d like to point to The Great Destroyer’s defeat in GW1 and how that caused Primordius’ awakening to be postponed.

4.
The Pale Tree does not transform other creatures in order to create sylvari: this point isn’t debatable. However, I don’t believe she necessarily chose the humanoid shape of the sylvari based off of her association with Ronan and his family. If she had done so, then why wouldn’t there be centaur-like sylvari as well (for Ventari), or evidence of any other sylvari beyond fern hounds and humanoids (such as any insects that may be living in the dirt)? Additionally, how likely is it that the Other Tree was buried on top of a family of dead humans? Even if Ronan did bury his family with a family pet, it doesn’t explain why the Other Tree has created at least one humanoid sylvari independently of the Pale Tree.

Instead, I believe that the humanoid sylvari is the way things just happened to pan out. It’s not just the humans that have two limbs and a head: the majority of Tyria’s intelligent races do. Besides just the humans, the Maguuma has been inhabited by tengu, trolls, ettins, ogres, giants, mursaat, asura, thorn stalkers (from GW1), and a whole mess of other similarly shaped creatures. If the thorn stalkers in particular are evidence, then I believe that the sylvari are just the most recent in a long-line of Maguuma-born plants to imitate their animal-based humanoid peers. It’s not as though magical or animate plants are even slightly rare in Tyria, but especially not in the rapidly-evolving Maguuma.

5.
Personally I don’t really care when the sylvari appeared. I don’t believe it’s anything more than coincidence, or alternatively the world’s natural reaction/defenses kicking in to counter the dragons (who would otherwise destroy it). It could even just be the Maguuma’s natural reaction in particular, as it’s a hotbed for magical activity. The sylvari appearing when they did has no particular relevance, especially when you take into account the Pale Tree’s planting and growth taking place before Ronan could reasonably know about the dragons entirely. Coincidence doesn’t mean anything other than a tree was planted and much later it matured and bore fruit.

The sylvari aren’t the first race to flood into the world rapidly; sure it’s probably more rapid than the charr or the humans, but to a race like the forgotten it’s probably nothing new or special. The timing isn’t very interesting beyond establishing the sylvari as the newest and youngest sentient race in Tyria.

So now that you know why I don’t believe in the SDT, and hopefully now that I’ve shown why it’s interesting but unrealistic, let’s move on to my theory.

We know a few things about the Nightmare Court and the Pale Tree Sylvari that we haven’t really examined in-depth yet. Specifically we know that the sylvari are able to leave the Dream behind (see: Soundless), and we know that once a creature falls into Nightmare it will never come back. We also know that there is more than one Dream and that sylvari of different trees don’t share the same dream. This can tell us two specific things about the nature of the Pale Tree and of the Nightmare Court.

It’s clear both in-game and in the lore that once a living creature is corrupted by a dragon, it is almost impossible to cleanse that corruption. In fact, after Orr was cleansed the only way to ensure it would stay that way was to slay Zhaitan and end the corruption once and for all. This does not align itself with the theory that Ventari’s teachings have corrupted the sylvari at all, as the Soundless are shown to be capable of willingly separating themselves from the Dream.

At the same time, this behavior does line up very closely with the Nightmare Court. We know that once a creature falls to the Nightmare, it’s lost to it (supposedly) forever. It retains a fraction of its former self, but it is corrupted and changed nonetheless. If any sylvari are dragon minions, it’s the Nightmare Court (which have already been shown to be corrupted in some way).

This would throw a fork directly into the existing theory (as we now have dragon-corrupted sylvari), but to be honest I feel as though this is the more reasonable conclusion of the two. We know that more than just sylvari can be turned to the Nightmare, but in particular it’s interesting to point out that there are Nightmare Spiders among their ranks. The Nightmare Spiders aren’t Tree-born either, they’re normal jungle spiders and cave spiders that have been beaten into the Nightmare by Courtiers. This contradicts the idea that the Pale Tree is a dragon champion as well, as the Pale Tree opposes the Nightmare Court and apparently lacks the capability or initiative to create her own sylvan spiders.

In addition to the spiders, the Nightmare has corrupted both plants and water in certain areas, and has allowed for Zhaitan’s minions to move freely through its territory. I’m not suggesting that the dragons have an alliance, but rather that the jungle dragon is currently unable to do anything about the undead if it wanted to, and that it might actually benefit the dragon to have a few undead shambling around. Irregardless of this, it has yet to be shown that the Pale Tree or the sylvari can corrupt other plants. They’re capable of manipulating them with magic, but so is every race that uses magic. They don’t actually do anything that the Maguuma doesn’t already do by itself.

My theory is that the sylvari can be and are being corrupted. This is what the Nightmare Court is: dragon corruption. The fact that they’ve moved on to sylvan hounds and spiders and have had success is in like with other forms of forced conscription to a dragon’s army. The Pale Tree’s sylvari are being targeted because the dragon knows where she is; the Other Tree is safe — for now — because the Nightmare Court hasn’t found it yet.

I therefore present for consideration the idea that a dragon is still asleep within the Maguuma, and that the Maguuma Jungle’s notoriously magical properties are due in part to the dragon’s presence. The Nightmare is how the dragon corrupts other things, and it’s currently only capable of corrupting things with weak minds. This is backed up by Nightmare Courtiers needing to beat their captives into the Nightmare, as well as the lack of other sentient targets beyond the naive sylvari.

I think that we’re going to start seeing more and more Nightmare creatures popping up as time goes on and as the sleeping dragon moves closer to its awakening. We know from the other dragons’ awakenings that as they move closer to waking up, their power starts to grow and increase. I believe that the sleeping jungle dragon can’t corrupt stronger creatures without having the Nightmare Court beat on them first because the dragon hasn’t regained enough strength yet. By the time it awakens I expect it to be just as potent in its corruptions as Jormag.

Based off of the in-game evidence and the lore in the books, it’s reasonable to believe that Faolain is one of this still-sleeping dragon’s champions. We know from Glint, Svanir, and The Great Destroyer that it’s possible for champions to exist and/or be created long before their dragon masters awaken, and I believe that Faolain/Caithe have a story similar to Svanir/Jora.

If the sylvari need a reason for their existence beyond “because the Maguuma is craycray” then they might exist along the same lines as the dwarves. The dwarves were, in their legends, created by The Great Dwarf in order to oppose The Great Destroyer, and their destiny was to defeat him (they did, at the cost of their existence). The sylvari (who aren’t shy when it comes to theorizing that they exist to oppose the dragons) may follow a similar path, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they did. In fact, the non-legend concept of The Great Dwarf is at its core very similar to the sylvaris’ Dream: a collective consciousness moving toward a shared cause.

So then for a short recap of my theory:
1. The Nightmare Court are the minions of a still-sleeping dragon
2. This dragon is slowly gaining strength, allowing the Nightmare to spread to more creatures
3. The sylvari are being corrupted because they’re mentally weaker than the other races; they don’t quite know their place in the world yet
4. The dragon is located in the Maguuma Jungle and will awaken during the course of Guild Wars 2’s lifetime
5. Faolain is the Nightmare Dragon’s first champion (it is unknown how she was originally corrupted, only that she was)

I think that this theory makes more sense than the Pale Tree somehow being a liberated dragon champion or something. Anyway the floor’s open, my huge wall of text is over, feel free to tell me why I’m wrong or why I’m right.

I don’t know I like the idea of the pale tree pretty much being a plant version of Glint, a wise renegade dragon champion helping the mortal races. Although the whole corrupted by ventari’s teachings seems a little sketchy, it’s no big leap to say a dragon’s champion can go rogue and even oppose the dragons.
The nightmare nature dragon you fight in the sylvari tutorial area does it for me, I can’t think it of anything else then nature dragon making attempts to regain controle of the pale trees consciousness.
Also the way sylvari are born is so akin to a dragon making minions, they are formed fully grown and ready to serve wich is also exactly what they do, except the playable sylvari serve the pale tree and are given choice to do so.

In the end there’s no concrete evidence, we’ll see when the last elder dragon is revealed if there is one, or we get to see another uncorrupted pale tree (malyck’s tree).

It’s an interesting idea, sure, but it’s not supported by the facts. Sure we know that a dragon’s champion might break away and go rogue thanks to Glint, but also remember that Glint was thousands and thousands of years old. It’s more likely that Glint was corrupted the last time Kralkatorrik was awake (and found herself suddenly free when he went back to sleep) than it is that she just up and decided to turn coat on a whim.

The Pale Tree has only been around for approximately 250 years (plus additional time for when she was still a seed, which can range from 0 additional years to the beginning of time). Since I don’t believe the seed could have existed for longer than 50 years (due to the nature of the Maguuma), that’s only 300 or so years for the Pale Tree to come into existence, begin growing, gain sentience, develop her crop and bring sylvari into the world. Compared to Glint that simply isn’t enough time for her to reach an equal stage.

We know that Glint had been helping the races of Tyria since at least 272 AE (current year is 1325 AE) through the Flameseeker Prophecies and random advice when people could find her (or when she found them). That’s a full thousand years we’re talking about. The Pale Tree has existed for a quarter of that time. Frankly I don’t believe it’s rational to believe that champions can just up and leave on the basis that Glint did, because as I stated Glint is absolutely the exception to many rules. She’s unique.

The dragon you face in the tutorial is called Shadow of the Dragon. It’s not necessarily representative of any specific dragon; however, it’s stated that it is comprised of the Nightmare. If the Nightmare is attempting to claim the Dream then it is logical to believe that it would manifest itself in whatever way possible in order to enter and control it. As there’s little to no evidence of non-plant creatures existing within the Dream (visions of other things appear, but they’re non-interactive and intangible), I find it much more like for the Shadow of the Dragon to be plant-like in appearance out of necessity rather than out of choice.

(Edit: and even more simply, the Shadow of the Dragon might have been nothing more than what it literally sounds like, considering it’s your Wyld Hunt.)

Elementals also are born fully grown and ready to serve. The sylvari life cycle and birth are mere coincidence. They have just as much in common with Destroyers as they do with Elementals and even Grubs. I find their magical origins to be similar, not some connection to the Elder Dragons.

There is plenty of concrete evidence, but none of it to support the theory that the Pale Tree is a champion. For example, we know for certain that the Nightmare can corrupt non-plant creatures (see: spiders). We know for certain that the Nightmare seeks to expand itself and to spread. We know for certain that Nightmare Courtiers speak in similar terms to other dragon minions (compare the way icebrood and risen champions try to lure you into joining them and accepting their version of freedom to the way in which the Nightmare Court interacts with players).

Good read.

I’m not very steeped into GW lore yet, but hopefully these well written posts will get me up to speed soon-ish.

GW does have some novels, right? I’ll have to track them down sometime. How much of GW1 lore would I miss if I only read the books? How do I catch up to the rest?

woodenpotatoes’ channel on youtube has a ton of lore stuffs.

just do a search on ‘woodenpotatoes guild wars lore’ in google, or look for that user on youtube.

You missed the biggest piece of evidence that the PT isn’t related to an elder dragon : Malyck comes from another Tree; therefore a) the PT cannot be the dragon itself, since the dragons are unique, and b) the other tree lacks a Tablet, and therefore can’t have been “freed”, and yet Malyck opposes the dragons.

On the subject on Malyck, it’s not confirmed that his tree even has a dream. It could be specific to the Pale Tree.

The idea that the Nightmare is a result of dragon effects is an interesting one. It would explain why the Inquest have Husks (Another creation the Court has, but the PT lacks) in CoE.
On the other hand, this doesn’t explain why only 1 dragon could corrupt the Sylvari where all others cannot.

I didn’t miss that, see my comments on the “Other Tree”. Thanks though! (Edit: upon review it seems I wasn’t clear enough on that/glossed over it, so thank you for the expanded explanation.)

We actually aren’t sure if the other dragons can corrupt the sylvari or not. We currently know that the sylvari believe that they cannot be corrupted and that the sylvari have not been turned into risen, icebrood or branded. However, as is stated/hinted at relatively often, we really don’t know enough about the sylvari yet to know for certain if they’re somehow immune. See my comparison to the quaggans.

I thought the other tree was addressed by the Pale Tree not being a dragon but rather just a champion.

Incase anyone thinks that I believe this is anything more than fun to think about but likely not true you’re wrong. The fact is, we have no idea where the Sylvari came from prior to the seed being found and planted.

Kerithlan.1659:

We actually aren’t sure if the other dragons can corrupt the sylvari or not. We currently know that the sylvari believe that they cannot be corrupted and that the sylvari have not been turned into risen, icebrood or branded. However, as is stated/hinted at relatively often, we really don’t know enough about the sylvari yet to know for certain if they’re somehow immune. See my comparison to the quaggans.

On the subject of the Quaggan, they lived both in the far north and the south. There’s quaggan fleeing south from Jormag (See the Quaggan racial story for one example) as well as those fleeing north from the DSD. The corrupted quaggan aren’t really an ancestral thing, they’re fairly recent.
What I mean is that of the minions we encounter, at least most are new to this cycle, with the only exceptions seeming to be the dragon champions.

I like your theory overall but I’m not sure I agree with you that the sylvari are being corrupted by the Nature Dragon first because they are mentally weaker than other races. I feel this point contradicts what you said about the dragons not knowing the sylvari well enough to corrupt them. If the sylvari were mentally weaker than other races we’d be seeing more of them be corrupted by dragons offering power, like Jormag.

I think the real reason that the sylvari are the first being corrupted by the Nature Dragon is simple proximity. If you look at the rise of the other dragons you can see that their minions began to spring up mostly around the location of the dragon’s awakening. Zhaitan didn’t raise the undead humans in Kryta or attempt to take over the Undead already present in Elona first. Primordus created destroyers closest to him first and held the Great Destroyer right next to his sleeping form. Proximity to the dragon’s source of power is the most likely reason why the sylvari are being corrupted first, not that they are mentally weaker than other races.

With that said if proximity is a factor the asura should be affected as well since they are also close to the Maguuma Jungle, the supposed resting place of the Nature Dragon. Furthermore, the fact that the asura have actually inhabited the area for longer than the sylvari would indicate that they should have been affected more than the sylvari if proximity were the only factor. That is, unless the seed from which the Pale Tree grew was stored in the Maguuma Jungle for a considerable amount of time. before Ronan removed it and planted it. If the seed was indeed held in the Maguuma Jungle for a long long time before actually being taken then the reason that the sylvari are the first being turned to Nightmare could still simply be that they have been exposed to the Nature Dragon’s corruption the longest.

If that turns out to not be true however, I would argue that the sylvari are being corrupted first because they are the most suitable vessels for the corruption. As plant-based life forms it would make sense that they would be most susceptible to the pull of a nature-based dragon. Though a bit boring, this explanation can also be considered why the sylvari are the only ones being corrupted. The Dragon remains asleep and lacks the power to easily corrupt life forms with a different genetic structure than it’s own while they are still so far away from it’s resting place. It may be as simple as the sylvari being “easy targets” for it because they share the same nature and are the closest/have been exposed to it’s corruption.

The problem though is that the sylvari aren’t the only ones being corrupted. It’s clear that there are at the very least also nightmare spiders and nightmare fern hounds, and the three of those only share vaguely similar body structures with each other.

Proximity is certainly a factor, but I believe it’s the sylvari’s lack of life experience and thus weaker resolve (their only real goal as a species at this point is to protect the Pale Tree and learn about Tyria (world)) that is the big “x” here. There’s no evidence that sylvari need to be beaten as severely as other creatures need to be before submitting to the Nightmare, only that they must be. We see Nightmare Courtiers forcing spiders and fern hounds to tear each other apart before they succumb to the Nightmare, but Ysvelta was converted rapidly and without any indication that she was horrifically harmed.

I think that has less to do with them being plants and more to do with them being “life rookies”. When I say weak minded, I don’t mean “hnng powa overwhelming” like typical scifi baddies. I mean that their minds are literally weak and undeveloped as a race, as they currently lack the strong cultural and societal structures of the other races. Their civilization and society as a whole are still feeling themselves out. Perfect opportunity for some sort of mental influence to prey on them.

I think the reason the Pale Tree and the “Other” tree are free of dragon control is because the dragon is asleep. The seeds where hidden away in a safe, hard to find location So when the dragon did wake up it could retrieve them.

The starter area where you battle the dragon is most likely the dragon’s subconsciousness reaching out to the tree. Seeing as its asleep its much easier to resist.
The Nightmare Court have accepted the dragon’s call, problem is they dont have direct access to the dragon. There basically leaderless atm.

Think of it like a Zerg Brood, with the nightmare court being the zerglings, only they dont have an overlord to relay commands to them from the cerebrate. They know there suppose to kill every thing, but there just not as organzed as they need to be.

The Great Destroyer was under Primordius’s control while the dragon slumbered, though. The corrupted Svanir was in the same boat. I don’t believe that has any bearing.

WE know for sure that Pale Tree is not the only one. We know that there existed other sylvari on planet probably born from other trees. We know Ventaris Tablet is exclusive to our pale tree. We know other sylvari from “other” pale tree/s are also considered good. We know that in case of Malyck they have not ever heard about The Grove or the Nightmare Court.
{{{{Below is assumption, haven’t done full chain yet}}}}
Malyck – sylvari who was born of different tree, is not from tyria and does not know the grove or nightmare court. He is also virtuous and kinda good guy too.

So while sylvari are new to tyria being 25yo there may be somewhere sylvari far older.

We also know that the seed of pale tree was not the only one.

What about the idea that the Nightmare Court are the sylvari that are merely reverting back to their original intended form?

Manta.7962:

What about the idea that the Nightmare Court are the sylvari that are merely reverting back to their original intended form?

More likely it is what happens to a species with strong empathic ability when some of them suffer from mental illness (it basically started with some mommy issues and Caithe being herself). The humans who want to remove the queen aren’t corrupted by dragons, they’re just on the extreme end of a political spectrum. The only bad faction of the playable races that worship a dragon are the Sons of Svanir and they’re mostly just idiots.

I believe that the sylvari ARE the minions of this mysterious nature dragon. I believe that the ventari tablet guided the pale tree away from the dragon. Also, in the Sylvari beginning zone there is a “shadow of the dragon” which i believe to be this mysterious nature dragon. By killing it in the dream, the sylvari seem to be choosing the ventari tablet over the dragons ways. I also believe that later in the game there will be other sylvari that do not follow the ventari tablet, instead i think they will act like destroyers would to primordus… minions.

Renesim.3824:

I believe that the sylvari ARE the minions of this mysterious nature dragon. I believe that the ventari tablet guided the pale tree away from the dragon. Also, in the Sylvari beginning zone there is a “shadow of the dragon” which i believe to be this mysterious nature dragon. By killing it in the dream, the sylvari seem to be choosing the ventari tablet over the dragons ways. I also believe that later in the game there will be other sylvari that do not follow the ventari tablet, instead i think they will act like destroyers would to primordus… minions.

You’re ignoring a lot by assuming that Ventari’s Tablet is corruption. For one, if it was corruption, wouldn’t sylvari see it as absolute? Corruption is established time and time again as something that is extremely difficult to remove if at all. That individual sylvari can remove that “corruption” with ease and not be Nightmare Court strongly suggests that Ventari’s teachings are not corruption. There are many, many sylvari that are not dreamers (they do not follow Ventari and have severed their connection to the dream) that do nothing that could be mistaken for working for a dragon.

Soundless, by your theory, would automatically be Nightmare Court, or evil at least. Not to mention how many evil, non-Court sylvari their are. There are sylvari pirates, bandits, and general kitten. That sylvari have so much choice with or without the tablet does not make it look like corruption in the slightest. Dragon corruption leaves very, very little room for choice and, even then, it’s likely only a champion would have the willpower to reject their master. Only the Nightmare Court act in any way like dragon minions in how they seek to corrupt and “remake the world in their image.” Sylvari pirates just want money and beer.

The Shadow of a Dragon as the jungle dragon doesn’t really work either. The Pale Tree herself says that only two of her children have faced a dragon in their dreams, the player character and Caithe. If the dragon in the dream was really a test to decide between Ventari and the dragon, then wouldn’t all saplings see and face it? Caithe says, too, that the dragon is Nightmare influence, like the nightmare hounds that are in there, killing saplings. Being dead doesn’t really allow for the saplings to choose the dragon’s path.

And then there is the almighty monkey wrench in any sylvari lore arguement, Malyck. He is without a dream, tablet, or corruption yet he is protective of other sylvari and generally a good guy, if a tad violent. Without Ventari’s tablet, using your logic, he should be vicious and evil right off the bat, yet he is really more of a blank slate. There is just not enough evidence to support Ventari’s tablet as corruption or the sylvari as minions.

On the subject of Glint being able to break away from her master’s hold, she’s not “unique” and was mysteriously able to do it on her own, the forgotten (and possibly some of the other ancient races) broke her away from Kralk’s grip and freed her mind. Therefore it was only by external influence that a dragon champion is able to break free. Hmmm….what else could fall under that criteria, I wonder

As for Malyk’s tree, it very well could still be under it’s dragon’s influence, but whatever it was that happened to him to make him lose his memory (my theory was him being in such close proximity to the Pale Tree, even though she herself didn’t know why) helped him loosen the hold on his tree’s influence. It’s even possible that another similar situation happened and his tree had a caretaker too much like Ventari (would be so awesome if a lone Forgotten stayed around to tend to it, I mean if I were them I would have established a backup plan if Glint didn’t work out and a minion of the jungle dragon would be a prime candidate).

Not everything is dragons.

And most players would raise their middle twig at ANet if they were told they race they picked was actually a race of dragon minions.

I think the problem is people are dealing too much in absolutes here. The Pale Tree is either an Elder Dragon or a Champion? That sounds entirely too absolute. The champions, for one, are not the only source of making minions. Tequatl the Sunless doesn’t make undead, he summons them. The Shatterer doesn’t create the Branded, he draws them from the Brand which is the actual production facility. Certainly even if it’s argued that they do make them themselves nobody would claim that all minions came from the champions as even in the story we see an undead production facility that has nothing to do with dragons in any shape or form. Further I really don’t even need to get into how silly an idea the Pale Tree being an Elder Dragon is.

That being said, each dragon produces their minions differently. Zhaitan mass-produces them in reanimation production facilities. Kralkatorrik created the Brand, turning the earth and air themselves into his factory. Jormag uses formations of blighted ice to generate ice monsters and corrupt creatures around it, and Primordius is indicated to have some sort of center of production deep underground that the Dwarves are keeping under relative control.

So I’m going to make a few counter-points of my own.

One: the Trees are not dragons or champions but mass production facilities, intended to create hordes of minions much the same as any of the other dragons do.

Two: The Dream was an intentional part of this, a system for programming his minions to be smarter and more powerful with each germination, learning and adapting to the failings of the previous ones like the Borg in Star Trek. Further the Dream guides each Sylvari individually on how they are to live their lives, what they’re meant to accomplish, and giving them in advanced all the skills they will need in their lives. To me, that sounds perfectly suited to programming an army, one interconnected where every creature is perfectly suited to their roles by design that adapts itself to suit changing conditions in an ongoing war.

Three: the Nightmare is not an external corruption of the Dragon but their base programming. It is true that some Sylvari are turned to and corrupted by the Nightmare through imprisonment and torture by the Nightmare Court, but I think this is a reversion to their base personalities. This method erases the purpose given them by the Dream, or perverts it, leaving them blank slates that only know destruction rather than where they’re meant to fit in in the greater whole, more like a damaged system trying to repair itself and leaving scar tissue than properly healing itself. However there are Sylvari who experienced the Nightmare directly within the Dream and were born to it, Sylvari who were essentially designed and programmed to, at some point, join the Nightmare Court. Those are the Sylvari who join willingly, without having to be captured and tortured. Some even have Dark Hunts, actual directives that they are driven to do by the Nightmare they experienced with the intention of spreading the Nightmare to consume the Tree. Counterarguments have included the presence of Nightmare Spiders and Hounds, but Nightmare Spiders are simply spiders trained to serve the Court, not dragon-corrupted creatures. Any time any other creature has become dragon-corrupted it has mutated and transformed, taking on characteristics of it’s creator. Nightmare Spiders are just spiders. As for the Hounds, Sylvan Hounds are stated in game to have been born from the Pale Tree, thus they are theoretically also minions of the dragon and thus also susceptible to legitimate influence by the Nightmare, not simply training.

Four: Ventari did not “corrupt” the Pale Tree. Rather, I think, he evolved it. All of the other dragon’s minions share one thing in common: they are no longer strictly “alive”, they are all but mindless drones controlled directly by the will of the dragons, or their lieutenants. They have their advantages: Destroyers may have infinite numbers as they are formed from the earth itself, and Zhaitan could turn his enemy’s fallen against them. But despite this, if my theory is correct then the Dream, an adaptive program to create the perfect army, renders the Sylvari by far the most capable, most powerful, and most dangerous enemies to Tyria. The drawback to this is that unlike the other minions, they are alive, they are plants, and living plants have a tenancy to mutate and evolve on their own. Being such magical plants in such a magic-intensive place as the Maguuma Jungle, it’s not difficult to imagine it simply evolving as it grew, influenced not by some sentient understanding of Ventari’s teachings but perhaps by some natural magic in Ventari’s tablet, produced by his faith and his fervent resolve in his beliefs and desire to see those beliefs translated to others. Force of will and faith are legitimate forms of magic in Tyria as faith in the Gods produces results, even in such instances as the Grawl and their ridiculous zealotry. How else could their shamans produce magic not through research and understanding but by blind faith in such powerful gods as “This Oddly Shaped Stick” and “That Big Rock Over There”? Those examples are ridiculous but they worshipped at least one Pact guard tower and I know that wasn’t doing them any favors. Why then would it be hard to believe that a wise old centaur like Ventari couldn’t magically influence the development and evolution of the Pale Tree through raw will and faith? This evolution did not necessarily hard-code the Tablet into the Sylvari so none could believe otherwise, but rather the good will and peaceful message produced by his beliefs helped bring virtue and goodness to the sylvari, balancing out their inherent evil and making them as morally grey as everyone else and capable of making their own choices. The Nightmare then is vestigial, but considering its origin it’s likely capable of reprogramming the whole system back to it’s default state, which is exactly their intention. The Dragons aren’t infallible: they aren’t all-seeing and all-knowing, however much power they have. Why would a Dragon think that stealing one of the seeds of his production facilities would have any other effect than to, in time, destroy the thief and begin wreaking his destruction on Tyria?

There is of course the problem of Malyck, the fact that while he may be bloodthirstier than most Sylvari he’s clearly not evil. My answer is simply that Malyck is, in fact, an incredibly weak counterpoint. We know absolutely nothing about him. While it’s unlikely that he wasn’t we don’t even have any evidence that he was born from a Tree at all, only speculation by Pale Tree sylvari because he sure didn’t remember. His presence and personality is certainly relevant and meaningful but I think that at this time we have entirely too little information regarding him and his true origins to make any sort of real postulation based on him or his story beyond that there are other Trees. Trees without Dreams could revert to a neutral, natural state like a particularly large normal plant or Sylvari cut off from their Dream or Nightmare by some external force could revert to a neutral easily-influenced state, or Trees could be on some level interconnected and thus the Pale Tree exerts an influence on the other trees so they have minority Sylvari and majority Nightmare Court in reverse of the Pale Tree, and Malyck was a survivor of some kind of purge by the true minions or whatever, you could come up with a billion theories for and against that are all tailor made to fit with how vague Malyck’s origins are right now.

Are we Dragon minions? No.

Is the Pale Tree being a little bit skimpy on the actual facts? Probably.

I’m of the opinion that Sylvari are incorruptible due to the fact that they have a completely different physiology to the rest of Tyrian civilisation: we are plant-based lifeforms with sap for blood. I’m fairly certain that the currently active Elder Dragons simply don’t have a clue as to how they should treat us.

That said, the Nightmare as a whole is a little poorly explained; we know that the Nightmare Court was created by Cadeyrn after he split from the Pale Tree due to various reasons (the other sylvari refusing to avenge the treatment of Malomedies by the Asura, for example). By that logic, the Nightmare Court wasn’t always implicitly evil; they were just fed up of having to take the pacifist route all the time.

Then suddenly we have Faolain showing up and abruptly becoming Grand Duchess of the court, supplanting Cadeyrn (no pun intended) and making him into one of her Champions. And the rest, they say, is history.

If Faolain is a Firstborn, and Cadeyrn is/was a Secondborn, why is the hierarchy in the Court the way it is? If Faolain was truly as nasty as we suspect, surely she would have upped sticks and formed the Court of her own accord, without having to wait for a Secondborn to show up and do it first?

I know that sylvari are not dragon minions. It is said the dwarves knew about the dragons and have even written stuff down about them. If the sylvari were dragon minions why dont the dwarves have anything written about them? The answer is that they didn’t exist which means they cannot be dragon minions.

Every race of Tyria is corruptible by the Dragons, save the sylvari. That makes them quite a big threat to the Dragons – unless one of them found a way to corrupt them.

The sylvari are physically immune to Dragon corruption from the other Dragons, but what if the last one thought outside the box? Instead of corrupting their bodies, it corrupted their hearts and minds. This asymmetrical approach would find the weakness of the otherwise impervious sylvari and be the Dragons’ solution to the “sylvari problem.”

This would be brilliant if it came to pass, but given the current villain of the story (which many of us are just waiting to “Die! Die! Die!”), I expect to be disappointed. :\

deepwinter.9015:

Every race of Tyria is corruptible by the Dragons, save the sylvari. That makes them quite a big threat to the Dragons – unless one of them found a way to corrupt them.

The sylvari are physically immune to Dragon corruption from the other Dragons, but what if the last one thought outside the box? Instead of corrupting their bodies, it corrupted their hearts and minds. This asymmetrical approach would find the weakness of the otherwise impervious sylvari and be the Dragons’ solution to the “sylvari problem.”

This would be brilliant if it came to pass, but given the current villain of the story (which many of us are just waiting to “Die! Die! Die!”), I expect to be disappointed. :\

The Dragons already have the ability to corrupt minds, hence why in Destiny’s Edge the novel the Asura have to create a head thingy to try and stop Kralk getting into their minds.

Dear people – The Pale Tree is not a dragon champion. Full stop. Period. etc.

I don’t think the Pale Tree is a dragon champion, but I do believe it’s linked to a champion.

Ventari planted a seed Ronan had found in a cave, surrounded by powerful plant creatures (“ancestors” of our current sylvari?). Those creatures could have been dragon minions. But, our current Pale Tree wasn’t grown normally. It was planted by Ventari, who was a peace loving creature. He “infused” his morals into the seedling, which, in turn, incorporated it into its dream.

There might still be “dragon minion sylvari” out there, in the Jungle, grown by other Pale Trees who were not taken from the influence of the dragon.

LadyRhonwyn.2501:

I don’t think the Pale Tree is a dragon champion, but I do believe it’s linked to a champion.

Ventari planted a seed Ronan had found in a cave, surrounded by powerful plant creatures (“ancestors” of our current sylvari?). Those creatures could have been dragon minions. But, our current Pale Tree wasn’t grown normally. It was planted by Ventari, who was a peace loving creature. He “infused” his morals into the seedling, which, in turn, incorporated it into its dream.

There might still be “dragon minion sylvari” out there, in the Jungle, grown by other Pale Trees who were not taken from the influence of the dragon.

The cave was somewhere in or close to the Maguuma JUNGLE. We have been to the Maguuma Jungle in GW1, it was an area that was notorious for having strong and vicious plant life, and there were a LOT of plant enemies in GW1 that seem to have not made their way into GW2. It is actually entirely possible that the creatures protecting the seed Ronan took were Sylvari, exactly the same as ours, who were protecting the seeds of their tree.

It’s worth pointing out that the Maguuma Jungle is now the Maguuma Wastes…

I honestly don’t get why people think there is any credence to theories that link the Pale Tree and the ‘jungle’ dragon. It would make for the worst and most illogical storyline ever. You can’t place part of the player base in a race that is actually being controlled by the evil that you are meant to destroy. Not to mention the fact that the fight against Zhaitan was VERY Sylvari oriented and the remaining fights are more likely to focus a little more on the other races. A lot of players already feel like the game privileges Sylvari too much.

Just to add:

I wouldn’t assume the Sylvari are free from ‘every’ dragon corruption. The Risen yes, but I’m more inclined to believe it’s because of their biology (they’re botanical, not biological).

The Brand has plants corrupted by the Crystal Dragon (I don’t remember the name), so I would guess the Sylvari could be corrupted by that specific dragon. It just so happened that there weren’t any Sylvari in the area when the Dragon flew overhead, and corrupted the land below.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

I honestly don’t get why people think there is any credence to theories that link the Pale Tree and the ‘jungle’ dragon. It would make for the worst and most illogical storyline ever. You can’t place part of the player base in a race that is actually being controlled by the evil that you are meant to destroy.

Why? There are risen of the other races, playable races… I just said that there might be corrupted Sylvari out there, just like there are corrupted of the other races. Not that “our” Sylvari are corrupted. I actually said they were NOT corrupted (because their Pale Tree was removed from the influence of the dragon) and NOT being controlled.

The best theory that seems to be about is that the Pale tree is part of a group of champions of Mordremoth (the jungle dragon) that were cleansed by the Forgotten and then stored in a cave. Ventari’s tablet is not what cleansed the Pale Tree but simply something she decided to take to heart because she saw what nice people Ventari and Ronan were when she was growing.

The nightmare court are analogous to the Sons of Svanir. A cult which turns away from the traditions of their society in favor of worshiping a dragon.

LadyRhonwyn.2501:

Why? There are risen of the other races, playable races… I just said that there might be corrupted Sylvari out there, just like there are corrupted of the other races.

Sylvari can’t be corrupted by the Risen – it’s part of the lore. They can die to the Risen, but not turn into one. It supports the theory that the Sylvari were ‘destined’ to defeat Zhaitan since they can’t be corrupted by him, especially since the Firstborn awoke not too long after the Risen arrived.

It’s not only Sylvari – there’s no plant-based Risen. Ever saw a Risen Great Oak?

The closest I’ve seen a Sylvari ‘corrupted’ was in Caledon forest. There’s a swampy area with defeated Wardens. If you try to revive them, they’ll explode, and risen maggots come out and attack you. Maybe this is all Zhaitan’s magic can do in trying to taint the Sylvari.

But Zhaitan isn’t the only one that has corrupted minions. They might be “invulnerable” to the corruption of Zhaitan, but that doesn’t mean they’re “invulnerable” to the corruption of other dragons. Especially if it was a Jungle dragon (if there is one, that is).

Shadeofgrey.3065:

The best theory that seems to be about is that the Pale tree is part of a group of champions of Mordremoth (the jungle dragon) that were cleansed by the Forgotten and then stored in a cave. Ventari’s tablet is not what cleansed the Pale Tree but simply something she decided to take to heart because she saw what nice people Ventari and Ronan were when she was growing.

The nightmare court are analogous to the Sons of Svanir. A cult which turns away from the traditions of their society in favor of worshiping a dragon.

And the MASSIVE flaw with that theory is that the Nightmare Court haven’t turned away from anything. They are AGAINST the Ventari Tablet, not the Pale Tree. They technically love the pale tree as all Sylvari do, but they believe she, and by extension the dream, has been corrupted by the influence of Ventari’s tablet.

Personally I’m more inclined to believe that the Sylvari aren’t corruptable because the dragons have never had to deal with anything like them before. All of the other races are flesh and blood creatures, similar to what the Dragons came across in their last awakening, the Sylvari are not made of flesh and blood and they have a link to the Dream, which is quite possibly part of the mists, so perhaps it is that which keeps them free from corruption – they don’t exist solely in their own bodies but also in the dream.

It seems more like a problem of syntax in my use of the word then an actual flaw. The question that comes to mind is this: If the Pale Tree was who the nightmare court wanted her to be, than would she really be the Pale Tree? The Ventari Tablet is the backbone of Sylvari society. To be against the Ventari Tablet, as the Nightmare Court are, is to be against the very thing the Grove was founded on.

The thing that makes the ‘not flesh and blood argument’, not as sound is that the dragon corruption has affected things other than flesh and blood. The biggest example is the branded plants. The argument against that is of course that Kralkatorrik is on the other side of Tyria from the sylvari. To argue against that I would ask one to consider the effects of Dragon corruption on the very land. Zhaitan’s corruption has completely changed the landscape of Orr, including changing plants into coral. Jormag’s corruption too has certainly changed the landscape in areas.

There have been instances where dragon corruption has entered both the Dream and the Mists, but was beaten back. The Dream is a big unanswerable question at the current time.

Genuinely curious what the instances of it entering the Mists are? Since I was pretty sure the Dragons had no power in or over the mists? I can’t remember any points where their corruption enters the mists, but if you can then please let me know? Also with the Dream the only instance I can think of is the plant dragon in the initial Sylvari instance? Which I’m not so sure whether it is direct corruption entering the Dream or simply a representation of it.

Also the Dragons can animate the inanimate yes, but I wasn’t saying that they COULDNT corrupt Sylvari, only that they don’t know how to yet because they haven’t encountered them before. And saying that they can corrupt plants is not the same thing because the Sylvari aren’t exactly plants, they are a lot more than that.

The instance I am talking about is the Protect the Mists storyline of the Norn personal story. The Sons of Svanir are the ones doing all the heavy lifting, but if they hadn’t been beaten back Jormag would have had a hold on the Mists.

As for the Dream it is correct that the Sylvari instance it the time I am talking about. And it is true that it is debatable whether a dragon was involved. What is specifically said though is that it was caused by the Nightmare Court (which may be involved with a dragon), and while mostly they refer to it as a poison, there is one instance, right before the boss fight when Caithe says “Swiftly now. We must end this corruption.”

I suppose in the end, there is no definitive argument against the ‘They don’t know how to yet’ argument, so I’ll just have to agree to disagree on that particular theory.

Regarding your #2:

Kerithlan.1659:

They weren’t around the last time the dragons were awake

Neither were Humans, Norn, or Asura. According to this the only major races around for their last awakening were the dwarves, jotun, forgotten, mursaat, and seers.

Now, you could find arguments for the proto-Norn and Asura races could have been around at the time, and I would give you that point (evolution is not THAT fast), but humans are the sticking point…. they didn’t show up until over nine thousand years after the dragons went to sleep.

One thing I also didn’t see mentioned in your post (and if I missed it, I’m sorry) is the absolutely explosive population growth the Sylvari have shown in the last 18 years. Remember that until the secondborns began there were exactly 12 Sylvari. Since then, their population has grown to the point where they are a major race. This would be similar to the entire nation of Kryta popping up in under two decades. I’m actually kind of surprised that none of the other races seem overly concerned with this… in another decade or two the Pale Tree will have a standing army over twice the size of any other race, and by the end of the century will have enough to crush all other nations combined.

Imperatora.7654:

-snip-

I. Live life well and fully, and waste nothing.
II. Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes strong roots.
III. The only lasting peace is the peace within your own soul.
IV. All things have a right to grow. The blossom is brother to the weed.
V. Never leave a wrong to ripen into evil or sorrow.
VI. Act with wisdom, but act.

The Pale Tree would never amass an army and the Sylvari would never dominate the other races, it goes against what they believe and what they stand for.
The Nightmare Court on the other hand could form an army and dominate the other races, but I don’t think that is necessarily something they would want to do. Their primary concern is the Pale Tree and “returning” her and the Dream to a state uncorrupted by Ventari’s teachings.

tablet or no, you would think someone would be at least a little worried about a race exploding from nearly nothing to a major world power in half a generation.

I know I would be extremely worried about a population growth curve like that.

Edit: the pale tree already has a standing army, the Wardens.

Imperatora.7654:

tablet or no, you would think someone would be at least a little worried about a race exploding from nearly nothing to a major world power in half a generation.

I know I would be extremely worried about a population growth curve like that.

Edit: the pale tree already has a standing army, the Wardens.

They protect the Grove and assist people who are lost and are trying to find crafting stations. That hardly screams massive disciplined army or destruction.
Don’t try and bring human world politics into a fantasy world… Everyone in Tyria has a whole lot more to worry about than a race of plant people, who are assisting them A LOT in their goals, for example those giant dragons that are seeking to destroy the world etc.

Imperatora.7654:

tablet or no, you would think someone would be at least a little worried about a race exploding from nearly nothing to a major world power in half a generation.

I know I would be extremely worried about a population growth curve like that.

Edit: the pale tree already has a standing army, the Wardens.

You forget one thing. Attrition. Yes, there was a huge explosion of Sylvari arriving. But as soon as they started arriving, they also went into the world, and are also killed.

Also, the Tree is sentient. Might it not have decided to start a population explosion, to get the Sylvari started (for whatever goal), and once they were a decent population, decreased the “production” of new Sylvari?

1. I would like to point out that even if the Pale Tree were a dragon, it is the single most immobile dragon in existence, and rather vulnerable to elemental attacks of the fire variety. In fact I believe it was mentioned somewhere in the Sylvari storyline that if the Nightmare Court were to find another viable Tree of it’s species that isn’t influenced by Ventari’s tablet, they would simply burn the Pale Tree to the ground. That is quite a huge weakness for an entity as powerful and nigh invulnerable as the Elder Dragons are allegedly supposed to be, to be sporting, donchya think?

2. As to the “no Dragon Minions” argument…. I have lived in New Hampshire most of my life. Plants, with the exception of certain types of Tree’s with extremely deep roots, do not fair very well when exposed to extremely cold freezing temperatures. Therefore it seems likely that if the Sylvari were turned into Icebrood, their base form (the Sylvari itself) would become so brittle as to shatter at the first impact of a weapon made of anything harder than wood.

Similarly, being turned into living Lava wouldn’t work very well for a creature which is made largely of plant matter.

As for the Risen argument… how would you even go about turning a deceased Sylvari into a Zombie? When they die they basically turn into a deceased mass of plant matter, don’t they? I don’t recall seeing Risen Treants, Druids, or other Plant based creatures running around Tyria. I don’t think it is really possible to create a Risen out of a Plant.

Ninth Requiem.3250:

You missed the biggest piece of evidence that the PT isn’t related to an elder dragon : Malyck comes from another Tree; therefore a) the PT cannot be the dragon itself, since the dragons are unique, and b) the other tree lacks a Tablet, and therefore can’t have been “freed”, and yet Malyck opposes the dragons.

Doesn’t he also lack his memory, if so it doesn’t really confirm or deny anything that he opposes the dragons…he has no memory, he isn’t a reliable source of information

Protoavis.9107:

Ninth Requiem.3250:

You missed the biggest piece of evidence that the PT isn’t related to an elder dragon : Malyck comes from another Tree; therefore a) the PT cannot be the dragon itself, since the dragons are unique, and b) the other tree lacks a Tablet, and therefore can’t have been “freed”, and yet Malyck opposes the dragons.

Doesn’t he also lack his memory, if so it doesn’t really confirm or deny anything that he opposes the dragons…he has no memory, he isn’t a reliable source of information

Except that the storyline confirms that he wasn’t born of the Pale Tree. So the fact that he has no memory doesn’t really matter.