Guild Wars 2

Think of it this way. The dragons rose before, and you can assume, they had all the same magic and tricks. It that is the case then the jungle dragon would have created Sylvari once before to server him. Now they would be evil and dragon servering right?

But, the 6 races at the time werent dumb, they had written history and language, so if an entire race was made to serve the dragons, chances are one of the wrote it down and the priory or order of whispers found out.

Just throwing this theroy out there. Personally I kinda hope that the are somehow connected to the dragon xD

Hmm, it depends. Even if it’s true that they did write historical events down ect, they barely had any information about the 6th dragon. Not to mention that our seed was brought from another place.

Spira.4578:

Hmm, it depends. Even if it’s true that they did write historical events down ect, they barely had any information about the 6th dragon. Not to mention that our seed was from another place.

The dragon might not have been known, but it still woke up and did it’s thing, we could assume the whole jungle area would be overflowing with plant minions. Seeds travel very far, look at the toxic offshoots.

Well good news for you, because I am pretty sure we are dragon minions or somehow connected to the dragon. Obviously there is a chance we aren’t, but look at this.

The cycle for the dragons are roughly every 10.000 years. Sylvari can’t be corrupted and we are not written down in any book. However, there was no ventari tablet before, which probably “corrupted” us to be good.
Basically saying, that before this happened, the Sylvari were always evil throughout history. So they wouldn’t have written anything down about themselves. Nor do we have any idea how they might have looked.
In the final cutscene with scarlet somewhat dead, you see she kind of looks different. With that yellow and brownish kind of degeneration kind of stuff? Maybe it was actually a transformation towards what we originally were.

Anyway, I think there is a high probability that we are dragon minions “corrupted” by ventari. Just because we didn’t show up that big in history, doesn’t really tell that we are or are not connected to the dragon. I don’t think it actually says really anything.

It is also possible that as this is a nature dragon, this creature may be ever changing

KehxD.6847:

Well good news for you, because I am pretty sure we are dragon minions or somehow connected to the dragon. Obviously there is a chance we aren’t, but look at this.

The cycle for the dragons are roughly every 10.000 years. Sylvari can’t be corrupted and we are not written down in any book. However, there was no ventari tablet before, which probably “corrupted” us to be good.
Basically saying, that before this happened, the Sylvari were always evil throughout history. So they wouldn’t have written anything down about themselves. Nor do we have any idea how they might have looked.
In the final cutscene with scarlet somewhat dead, you see she kind of looks different. With that yellow and brownish kind of degeneration kind of stuff? Maybe it was actually a transformation towards what we originally were.

Anyway, I think there is a high probability that we are dragon minions “corrupted” by ventari. Just because we didn’t show up that big in history, doesn’t really tell that we are or are not connected to the dragon. I don’t think it actually says really anything.

The Sylvari themselves would not have written anything down, but another race would have wrote about giant plant monsters. They “might” look humaniod though, the pale tree base her childrin off of Ronin if I remember right, but Malek I think his name was, is from a different tree entirly and he looks human.

As for that yellow stuff, that is Sylvari blood, they have a golden sap in their veins. Her turninng yellow would be the equivilent of our veins buldging out of our neck.

Do the historians have any texts about branded creatures?
Do they have any texts about icebrood creatures?
And finally do they have any texts about Bubbles minions?

And also, the last time Sylvari were born, that was more than 10.000 years ago. The humans only existed for 2000-3000 years on Tyria by now. They are pretty new to the world. They were brought by the human gods somewhere between the writing of the Tome of Rubicon and 768 BE. Basically, the only existent writing, that is even close to being that old is the Tome of Rubicon by the Great Dwarf. Around 2000-6000 years ago (date unknown). So basically, where should they have been written down? That is a really long time ago.

KehxD.6847:

And also, the last time Sylvari were born, that was more than 10.000 years ago. The humans only existed for 2000-3000 years on Tyria by now. They are pretty new to the world. They were brought by the human gods somewhere between the writing of the Tome of Rubicon and 768 BE. Basically, the only existent writing, that is even close to being that old is the Tome of Rubicon by the Great Dwarf. Around 2000-6000 years ago (date unknown). So basically, where should they have been written down? That is a really long time ago.

That is an interesting point, I didn’t know this. What I wonder then is, if the humans are so young, what did the sylvari look like before, if they ever existed before? What were they based on? Is it a simple law of nature that they came to look like humans? (Look at norn, who are shaped the same as well.)
What about other dragons’ minions? Who/what served as their minions? Did everything work different, or did they not use minions at all? Was there any information released about any of this?

Jake.1430 is right, Malyck is from a different tree, is humanoid, and is not evil. If anything, he has better morals at less than a month old than most humans do in their 20s.

I think that kinda proves that sylvari are not inherently dragon minions and that their humanoid appearance is not influenced by Ronan or his family.

What I’m saying is that it is not possible that sylvari are un-corrupted dragon minions. People seem to love this concept, and I would have been all for it had the sylvari not been built in the way that they have. Dragons corrupt existence, the Pale Tree essentially birthed the sylvari. Corruption occurs to already living/nonliving matter. We have already seen living mobile plant creatures and they are not corruptions; sylvari exist in the same vein and would have to have been something else before being ‘corrupted’ into what we see as sylvari.
Examples: Primordus corrupts rock and lava; Kralkatorrik corrupts fleshy things mostly into more crystaline beings; Jormag corrupts snow and ice and also fleshy things; Zhaitan corrupts previously living things that are fleshy although it can also corrupt structures such as temples.
In other words, the sylvari would have had to be plant matter corrupted into sylvari form to be minions. Instead they are grown and born from pods, a method that does not happen to other dragon minions. In fact, all other dragon minions are created in the same way and this way is not from pods.

Well, we could also be “cured”. Glint, a champion of Krek was “cured” with a spell many years ago by the forgotten ones.
All of her children were cured too. It could be possible, that one of Mordr’s champions got cured – and all of his offsprings could create good sylvaris.

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

Jake.1430 is right, Malyck is from a different tree, is humanoid, and is not evil. If anything, he has better morals at less than a month old than most humans do in their 20s.

I think that kinda proves that sylvari are not inherently dragon minions and that their humanoid appearance is not influenced by Ronan or his family.

Yes Malyck is from another tree, but he doesn’t know where he is from, nor does he really know what it means to be a Sylvari. He is a Sylvari that lost all his memory. It doesn’t really prove anything. Not that we are, nor that we are not dragon minions. He is just a Sylvari without any influence by a Pale Tree at all. He has no induced moral from at all, because he doesn’t remember. I don’t see how he makes a difference. It just tells us, there might be more trees.

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

What I’m saying is that it is not possible that sylvari are un-corrupted dragon minions. People seem to love this concept, and I would have been all for it had the sylvari not been built in the way that they have. Dragons corrupt existence, the Pale Tree essentially birthed the sylvari. Corruption occurs to already living/nonliving matter. We have already seen living mobile plant creatures and they are not corruptions; sylvari exist in the same vein and would have to have been something else before being ‘corrupted’ into what we see as sylvari.
Examples: Primordus corrupts rock and lava; Kralkatorrik corrupts fleshy things mostly into more crystaline beings; Jormag corrupts snow and ice and also fleshy things; Zhaitan corrupts previously living things that are fleshy although it can also corrupt structures such as temples.
In other words, the sylvari would have had to be plant matter corrupted into sylvari form to be minions. Instead they are grown and born from pods, a method that does not happen to other dragon minions. In fact, all other dragon minions are created in the same way and this way is not from pods.

Well it certainly does sound like a point there, but I think you have to look at it from a slightly different perspective. does rock grow? Do crystals grow? I don’t think so, and I think the Risen actually change their appereance a bit over the time they are “alive”. So I don’t see why corrupting plants, which normally do grow, would hinder them to grow? How says crystalline wolves corrupted by Kralkatorrik can’t reproduce? We have no idea about that to be honest, so I don’t really see it as a, “it doesn’t make sense”. There is a difference between plants, rocks and living creatures. Why wouldn’t it minfest in that kind of reproducing way? After all the dragons are heavily magical beings, that should be able to do that kind of stuff.

Primordus creates Destroyers from lava. Pale Tree creates Sylvari from minerals in earth? I don’t see a big difference here.

KehxD.6847:

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

My words!

Yes Malyck is from another tree, but he doesn’t know where he is from, nor does he really know what it means to be a Sylvari. He is a Sylvari that lost all his memory. It doesn’t really prove anything. Not that we are, nor that we are not dragon minions. He is just a Sylvari without any influence by a Pale Tree at all. He has no induced moral from at all, because he doesn’t remember. I don’t see how he makes a difference. It just tells us, there might be more trees.

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

My words

Well it certainly does sound like a point there, but I think you have to look at it from a slightly different perspective. does rock grow? Do crystals grow? I don’t think so, and I think the Risen actually change their appereance a bit over the time they are “alive”. So I don’t see why corrupting plants, which normally do grow, would hinder them to grow? How says crystalline wolves corrupted by Kralkatorrik can’t reproduce? We have no idea about that to be honest, so I don’t really see it as a, “it doesn’t make sense”. There is a difference between plants, rocks and living creatures. Why wouldn’t it minfest in that kind of reproducing way? After all the dragons are heavily magical beings, that should be able to do that kind of stuff.

If Malyck were a dragon minion lost, he would have connection to the Dragon he was associated with. Any minion in isolation will retain a connection with its respective Dragon. Malyck had zero connection to anything, proving that the Dream isn’t necessarily the natural state of the sylvari and probably has something to do with where the tree was planted and by whom.

You’re right, rocks and crystals don’t grow. That’s my point. Crystalline wolves are Dragon minions and have no sexual drive so any chance at reproduction is coincidental. Also if they could reproduce, Dragons would probably corrupt a few and make them breed a huge army to take over everything. They haven’t done that so I’d say it’s either not possible or not relevant.

Dragons corrupt things that are already there. Primordus corrupts rocks. Kralkatorrik corrupts living creatures, among other things. Jormag corrupts water-based stuff and that includes living beings (ice being its preferred medium). Zhaitan corrupts things that have died. None of these are creation-based, they use materials they already have to corrupt the form of their minions.
Sylvari may be built from minerals, but then again so is every living thing. I could easily construct an argument about how quaggans are freed Dragon minions from Bubbles because they live in the water and are, in fact, made from water. The fact that Mordremoth and sylvari are both plant-related does not indicate that they themselves are related. In fact, it gives us a chance to see Dragon corruption on sylvari as they may be susceptible to plant-based corruption.

In other words, the Dragons are incapable of traditional creation methods and that’s why they corrupt things instead of creating things. Thus the creation of the sylvari is not aligned with other Dragon minions and Champions.

Actually I’m tempted now to start a theory that all humans, norn, charr, asura, and quaggans are Bubble’s minions because water is a key component in their physicality…

This is fun, Im happy I made a thread

Well, if you’ve been to Orr, you’ll know that risen drakes and spiders can lay eggs that hatch into more minions, and if you’ve helped the Skritt in the personal story, you’ll know that destroyers can be produced in the same fashion. Factor in Glint and her eggs, and it seems like being produced by a “mother” doesn’t really prove anything about the nature of the Sylvari either way.

Everyone keeps making reference to Scarlet’s death scene. You read it all across the forums on the “theories” of us Sylvari how she was “obviously corrupted cus of the gold lines on her face” etc etc. My question is … Did any one not read the short story about what she saw while in the “box”? It clearly stated that her natural sylvari coloration was gold.

From “What Scarlet Saw”
““Ceara?” Omadd put a reassuring hand on the sylvari’s shoulder, and then yelped. Her skin was hot to the touch, and the faint golden glow that surrounded her had shifted to vivid crimson.”

As such the view in the cut scene was her “natural” coloration or glow that all sylvari have. Just my take.

I figured that the gold was her blood. Sylvari blood is a golden sap, so I figured that those lines where the equivilent to a normal humans veins kinda popping out

I remember somewhere in the beginning of the storyline, there’s a mention about sylvari actually belonging to the Nightmare, and the Pale Tree being a lie. As an unexperienced player (with no background knowledge at all), I assumed this was just another unexpected turn in the storyline but nothing to be bothered about.

Now, after having spent way too many hours researching Tyria’s history + the story of Scarlet and it’s ending, I am quite convinced that the Sylvari are indeed a dragonspawn.

The location’s right, the timespan’s right, and who knows if the Sylvari in the personal storyline (I really forgot her name) was right too, after all…

It would be awesome to find out my character’s actually a dragonspawn of some kind. On the other hand, I could see some difficulties for the developers to actually maintain a great storyline if we all turn out to be corrupted by some “force of good”…

The Nightmare Court are a segment of Sylvari that believe that Ventari’s Tablet is not worth listening to (the things that make Sylvari a noble race). This makes the Nightmare Court cold and pragmatic…. but they also not only are cold, but they torture. The more torture and pain Sylvari feel, the more tempted they are by Nightmare and then the more the Nightmare corrupts the Dream.

Nightmare are, effectively corrupt Sylvari.

Ventari was important because, as a Centaur with his friendship with the human, Ronan, they overcame racial differences and were able to see the good in each other. Ronan planted the seed of the Pale Tree 250 years ago and Ventari raised what would become the Pale Tree. Only recently it flowered and bore fruit (the Sylvari).

The Sylvari are a noble race and they better not make Sylvari out to be dragonspawn. I partly like them because of their innocence and nobility. In GW, humans ended doing quite a few dumb things and arguably caused the dragon Primordus to awake. Charr were the enemies of humans and they have a horrid tendency to destroy all nature around them (I’m an environmentalist – I suppose another reason I like Sylvari). I do like Norn and Asura, but they, indeed, do not have the innocence that Sylvari do. I love the motto “All things have a right to grow.” As a self-identified dove/pacifist, I really appreciate the motto.

Crystals do grow… it just takes the right conditions. You wouldn’t have crystals if they didn’t “grow.”

Once something is corrupted, however, all it does is do a dragon’s bidding. The Dream would be Nightmare if Sylvari were corrupted. But for some reason the baddies in the Living Story tended to be Sylvari (and not particularly Nightmare Court either!). Please, just please stop with the evil Sylvari storylines. I was saddened at Marjory Delaqua’s reaction to Scarlet in that she may never trust another Sylvari. It is the last thing Tyria needs is yet another racial tension.

Either Mordremoth has a thing for humans, wolves, and free will, or there’s more to the sylvari origins than dragons. I think the answer’s been with us all this time and

From the wiki: “What is known is that the Pale Tree was born of a fist-sized seed from a cave which Ronan, a human soldier, found. This cave was said to have been guarded by monstrous plant-creatures, though any details on them or the location of the tree is unknown, even to modern sylvari who have been looking for this cave since their race’s birth from the Pale Tree.”

Monstrous plant creatures sounds like husks and potential dragon spawn, sure. But they’re not the only monstrous plant creatures around in Tyria. Treants fit the description too.

Now, who was around 250 plus years ago that had (or were) treants, had an affinity for nature, had an affinity for nobility, and – at one point – had an affinity for the human body. And fall right in among the Arthurian themes permeating the sylvari race. I'm not saying its druids...

• The pale tree was planted about 250 years ago by a human later accompanied by a centaur – why do sylvari exclusively look like humans and not also like centaurs? (could have brought these races together once more)
• the firstborn begin to spawn about 25 years before the game starts – why not earlier to have more time preparing the fight against the dragons? (how exactly did the pale tree get notice of the awakening of the elder dragons?)
• there were 12 firstborn, but until now there are only 9 known by name – what is the secrect of the other three firstborn, where are they, why do the other firstborn not speak of them?

• where is the mysterious cave that the seeds of the pale tree(s) come from and what happened to the other seeds? (how did Ronan manage to get past the plant-creatures guarding the cave and what did he know and never spoke of?)
• who or what brought the seeds into this cave and for what purpose? – planning all these coincidences would have been nearly impossible
• are the druids somehow connected to the seeds, the tree(s), the dream?
• of what nature is the connection between the dream of dreams and the mists?
• was it pure coincidence that just the first one of secondborn sylvari became the founder of the nightmare court?
• what determines the character of any sylvari? – how do extreme-minded individuals such as Ceara come to life and oppose the pale tree and the whole sylvari-system?
• why did she rename herself to Scarlet?

I’m wondering if the dragon is the source of Nightmare. Noting that Ceara had nightmares that seemed to be linked to the dragon Mordremoth.

I like some of the points brought up here, they are certainly things to think about, but I do recall Arenanet stating that it is not possible for a sylvari to already be Nightmare upon emerging from the pod. (This totally messed up the history of my Nightmare sylvari in RP, by the way.) This basically means that the whole grand plan of the Nightmare Court is futile, and thus, if that is the case, I highly doubt, as some stated, that the Nightmare Court are the followers of (or corrupted by) Mordremoth. They seek to corrupt the tree so sylvari are born as nightmare from the start, yet Arenanet also states that it is not possible that sylvari can be born nightmare. Was that meant as ‘just at this point, until the Pale Tree falls to Nightmare’ or ‘ever’? Who knows…
I even recall reading that Arenanet also stated that the Nightmare Court oppose the dragons. Now, this was before Mordremoth was even known and confirmed, and as far as I know, all dragons also oppose one another, so that could make sense. But in the grand scheme, I don’t see the NC as dragon corrupted, nor the sylvari as dragonspawn. Husks, on the other hand… Have we ever heard where they come from?

Humanoids Sylvari are not the only life that the Pale Tree births. Fern hounds are also born from the Pale Tree. It seems that as a sentient being, she observers her surroundings and learns from it, similar to how she learns from the experiences and memories of her Sylvari children. Creating the Sylvari race as human-like may simply be a choice. If that were the case, it could be true for another tree as well. It’s possible that other trees create creatures based on their environment and surroundings. The tree Malyck came from could also be near a human settlement, thus resulting in a similar attempt to create humanoid life. Pale Tree Sylvari get their sense of morality and nobility from Ventari’s Tablet, taught to them by their Mother. It’s possible that other trees create neutral beings, and their only guidance is the world around them. It’s also possible they the trees themselves are neutral, even primal in their nature. The Pale Tree’s early years with the human and centaur could be what gave her a distinctive personality.

My point with all this is that the trees themselves (and the seeds they come from) are simply another form of life in the jungle, and not specifically made to be dragon minions. There are already other plant-like creatures inhabiting Tyria, the treants. They can be corrupted, as evidenced by the Rotting Ancient Oakheart in Queensdale. They Sylvari seem to be immune to all known forms of corruption, and this ability is unique to them. It is not known how or why. Could it be possible that a tree itself is susceptible to corruption? If so, would it then be able to birth it’s own corrupt minions? Caithe was afraid that the Nightmare Court would turn their attentions to Malyck’s tree as an easier target to turn to nightmare. Could not another entity or group do the same, be it an Elder Dragon, the White Manttle, or just someone with a negative outlook on life?

It’s hard to say certainly that Sylvari are dragon minions, when the dragon they are being linked to has been asleep. That said, Mordremoth’s element is jungle and nature related, and it has been shown to have a link to the Sylvari already. I think that has more to do with them encompassing the same elements as the dragon, rather than previously having been created by him. With his physical body slumbering, his mind reached out and found another form of plant-life with not only sentience, but intelligence and awareness. The Sylvari are the first in Tyria’s history to possess these qualities, as opposed to the primal nature of other plant life.

Sylvari were not meant to be dragon minions, but it is possible that Mordremoth could seek them out as subjects to turn as he seeks to build his minion army. I do not worry about our PC Sylvari however, for the Pale Tree will protect her children. “Fear not this night, you will not go astray.”

/ramble

“I see the evil in the world; I am told to fight it, but the lessons of the tablet shackle me. They prevent me from doing what is right. "

Those are the words of Caderyn, who founded the nightmare court. It should seem obvious that neither the words or actions of the nightmare court are related to the dragons.

“It will take strength to defeat the dragons, and strength does not come by turning away any weapon, no matter how vicious or how cruel. We will use them all.”

To assume that two evil forces are automatically on the same side or share the same motivations is so simplistic. The Nightmare court, or at least Caderyn, still want to fight the Elder Dragons.

Caderyn doesn’t come across as corrupted. He is evil in the sense that anyone can be evil – arrogant and cruel, vicious and vindictive and immoral. But that doesn’t make him a dragon minion. There are plenty of cruel and evil people of all races, and they aren’t all dragon minions.

I’m just going to drop this here, since this looks like a highly relevant thread to drop it:

The main pillars of the theory which, it is important to point out, grew before the game was released, are the following:

1) Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption. One explanation for why they might be immune to dragon corruption would be because they are already corrupted (ie are dragon minions).

2) In Edge of Destiny, Glint claims that she broke free of Kralkatorrik’s control through a personal epiphany. Thus, the reason why the sylvari might be good despite the Pale Tree having been intended as a dragon champion is that Ventari’s philosophies and the Tablet brought about a similar epiphany in the Pale Tree.

3) The Nightmare claims that they are closer to the true nature of sylvari, and the Tablet has fundamentally altered sylvari nature – further reinforcing point 2, while providing evidence that the sylvari, like dragon minions, are by nature nasty, omnicidal pieces of work.

4) I think at this time it was known that there was a plant dragon in the sylvari tutorial, and theorised that this did not represent Zhaitan as believed by the characters, but something darker inherent in sylvari nature.

At the time the theory was presented, this was a solid chain of logic. Now, plenty of theories have been proposed that had solid chains of logic that later proved to be false, but one could see, sensationalist as it was, how it could have been true.

However, discoveries since the game released have torpedoed each of these pillars:

1) We see in CoE that being corrupted by one dragon provides no protection against being corrupted by draconic energy from another. Thus, sylvari resistance to corruption is not due to already being corrupted, but some other cause (for one possibility, see below) is needed to explain this.

2) We learned in Arah that Glint did not simply ‘choose’ to shift loyalties. She may or may not have been aware that there was more involved in her change of heart (although given her powers and role, I’m pretty certain she did). Dragon minions, even the most important champions, simply do not have enough free will to contemplate betraying their dragon. Powerful forgotten magic was employed to return that free will to her, magic that was almost certainly not included in a stone tablet carved by a centaur, however enlightened. However, going back to pillar 1, this also shows that while being a dragon minion already does not prevent dragon corruption, there are magics in the world independent of the dragons that do.

3) In one of the sylvari personal story possibilities, we meet a sylvari (Malyck) who turns out to have been born from a different Tree and thus has no connection to the Tablet whatsoever. His overall behaviour and moral structure is… well, pretty close to human, actually. He’s a bit more ruthless than most Dream sylvari, but he shows loyalty to those who befriend him and compassion to the weak and vulnerable.

4) This one has not been debunked per se, but there are plenty of other explanations – the canonical in-game explanation is that it represents Zhaitan (whom sylvari PCs have a Wyld Hunt to slay), and while that may be false, it could simply represent that there is some influence from Mordremoth in the Nightmare without meaning that the sylvari race and the Dream as a whole are spawn of Mordremoth that were somehow (mostly) cleansed.

Now, it has gained a bit more reinforcement recently on pillar 4 with the implication that Scarlet has been manipulated by Mordremoth through the Nightmare – however, that is following a convoluted path of logic that can diverge off to other conclusions at multiple points. Pillars 1 through 3, though, are all but completely demolished.