Guild Wars 2

First things first, idk wheather to put this here or in lore, but since this is mostly large speculation, and has mostly to do with sylvari, ill post it here.

So i recently watched this video and though a lot of the stuff this guy says is wrong, (due to the vid being old) the theory he presents still seems pretty legitimate.

The theory: Mordremoth, the unknown jungle/vegetation/nature theme elder dragon that is said to be hiding out in the maguuma wastes created the seed of the pale tree as a precursor to him waking up in order to prepare for his awakening.
We know that all Elder dragons create champions possible of great planning and thought, and the Pale tree is truly a thinking and sentient… thing.

There is no lore that tells us where or how the seed of the pale tree comes about, only that the seed came to the possession of a centaur whom planted it on the grave of his human friend and before he himself died, placed a tablet of guidelines that he lived by on the grave.

The idea is that the growing pale tree through the influence of the ventari tablet decided to leave mordremoth’s ‘side’ and instead try to destroy him. It is very evident since the very beginning of the sylvari storyline that they care the most about defeating the elder dragons all the way back to when the pale tree teaches them about the evil of the dragons in the dream of dreams. the dream of dreams in itself being a bit like an indoctrination process that the pale tree uses to teach its minions that are birthed fully grown and combat ready. Obviously the potential for the pale tree to be evil is there. It makes an endless stream of ‘minions’, it ‘brainwashes’ them to its own ideology.

Also it is not unheard of for a champion of an elder dragon to defect and change sides, the most famous being Glint, whom was a champion for Kralkatorrik.
On top of all of this, there is the nightmare court. Sylvari that believe that their place in the world is not to defeat the dragons or live in peace but instead to embrace the nightmares encountered within the dream of dreams. These nightmares being created when Sylvari commit acts of ‘evil’ and as seen in the Sylvari tutorial, manifest themselves as DRAGONS. It is easy to suggest that the nightmare court are what the Sylvari are actually meant to be like, but thanks to the influence of ventaris tablet, this never came to be, until mordremoth started to influence them, and through this influence on some Sylvari, the nightmare court was created. Not to mention that the sole purpose of the nightmare court is to “free” the pale tree from the influence of ventari’s tablet, maybe so that mordremoth can regain control.

Another piece of evidence that points to the sylvari being minions of Mordremoth and the pale tree supposing to be his champion is that there is no evidence that a elder dragon can corrupt another elder dragons minion. There is no evidence that kralkitorrik can ‘brand’ one of zhaitans undead minions, or vice versa, and there is no evidence that Kralkatorrik can ‘brand’ Primordius’ destroyers either, and vice versa. Now the connection to the sylvari is that: The sylvari are immune to the corruption of the other elder dragons. Zhaitan cannot raise undead sylvari, Kralkatorrik cannot ‘brand’ sylvari, etc.. This points to the sylvari being creations of Mordremoth via the pale tree whom was supposed to be his champion, but defected.

What are your thoughts on the theory that the sylvari are the minions of the elder dragon mordremoth and that the pale tree seed was created by him to be his champion?

Hum your theory seems amazingly consistent according to all the information we’v been provided when it comes to sylvari, and the jungle dragon.

Actually i believe this could be one of the explanations for the Sylvari apparition, as well as an explanation for the Nightmare Court’s thirst for Nightmares, and the introductory dream/nightmare every sylvari faces.

Still how would you explain Wyld Hunts for example!? Those are shown within the dream, and basicly they come true as an image of the dream you, as a newborn, had. Killing Zaithan is your Wyld Hunt as a Sylvari player, for you dreamed with a dragon wich was a product of (now following the lore and relating it to your theory) the poison inflicted on your pod, by the nightmare court.
The point i’m trying to make is:

• Do you consider the idea of “Wyld Hunt” something the mother tree came up with to give a purpose to her children to live in Tyria with a specific goal?
• Or would these Wyld Hunts exist even if Sylvari were under the dragon’s control, but they would have diffrent goals, like irradicating the races of Tyria, pretty much like Zaithan minions?!

Second point i’m making here is the possible existance of other Groves, and now to empower your theory…We’v seen Malyck arrive to Maguuma Jungle, not knowing where he’d come from, who he was and what the pale tree was. Malyck (the Harbinger) could be himself a proof and a way to support this theory! If there are other groves, what can assure us that they aren’t beeing raised by the influence of Mordremoth or one of his champions?
Honestly Malyck apparition is one that has always buggd me, i don’t believe Anet would’v just made him because they wanted to create an hypothetical grove…This could be the reason, a simple hint, but strong enough to support such a theory.

Third point i wanna make… when it comes to the Nightmare Court, idk wether they actually are what the Dragon would’v imagined, because honestly, the Nightmare Court are Dream made Sylvaries that have after turned to this evil Nature…It makes sense that Mordremoth would’v imagined his minios beeing like the Nightmare Court, but those have once been affected by the dream one way or another and i believe that would’v changed the way Nightmare is experienced by those sylvari in particular. The main reason that brings me to this belief is that Nightmare Courtiers are vilains, but they are not the typical vilains, they are sofisticated, and somehow manage to show some mercy before they strike (this concerns to Court recruitment matters mainly) and they always mix up their own feelings upon their matters. I would imagine The Nightmare of Mordremoth something more brutal and devastating, for Sylvari are a 20 year old race on Tyria, the world of feelings and sensations, is something they had never experienced, and i honestly doubt Mordremoth would’v wanted them to experience these at all, they are the perfect killing machines, they can live without showing feelings or obey any goals, besides those they are persuaded to…

Well this was my view over ur theory, and what i haven’t mentioned means simply that you have convinced me, and made ur theory credible (to me at least). Good job on coming up with this, and i thank you for that, I’m a Sylvari player and their purpose on the world, apparition and roots are soemthign that i’m really curious about… Thinking about it and discussing ideas is the best way to let out all this thoughts i’v been having aswell :P

Cheers!

vgomes.7380:

The main reason that brings me to this belief is that Nightmare Courtiers are vilains, but they are not the typical vilains, they are sofisticated, and somehow manage to show some mercy before they strike (this concerns to Court recruitment matters mainly) and they always mix up their own feelings upon their matters. I would imagine The Nightmare of Mordremoth something more brutal and devastating

But as we’ve seen with other minions of the elder dragons, sometimes the minions do something that even the dragons themselves cant control, for instance, Jormag himself doesnt care if he corrupts a female or a male, but the sons of svanir themselves do care, and thus kill all the females that are in the midst of receiving svanirs gift from jormag, because to the sons of svanir, its a boys only club

The peculiar way the nightmare show mercy could be just another example of this independence from the dragon even though they are minions to them.

vgomes.7380:

• Do you consider the idea of “Wyld Hunt” something the mother tree came up with to give a purpose to her children to live in Tyria with a specific goal?
• Or would these Wyld Hunts exist even if Sylvari were under the dragon’s control, but they would have diffrent goals, like irradicating the races of Tyria, pretty much like Zaithan minions?!

I believe the Wyld hunts would exist even if the sylvari were under the dragons control.
The pale tree from the influance of the tablet, manipulates the goal of the hunts toward acts of great good, instead of acts that can further the agenda of mordremoth.

The thing about Glint is that the Forgotten used a special ritual to cleanse her corruption (which is proven in Arah path 3 when you cleanse an undead chicken’s corruption from Zhaitan and it becomes friendly). Ventari’s tablet was just sitting there. It’s not like the Sylvari woke up, read it and said “wow I’m not working for Modremoth anymore”. There would have to be a hell of a lore more than that to break a dragon’s corruption.

VitalSuit.1980:

The thing about Glint is that the Forgotten used a special ritual to cleanse her corruption (which is proven in Arah path 3 when you cleanse an undead chicken’s corruption from Zhaitan and it becomes friendly). Ventari’s tablet was just sitting there. It’s not like the Sylvari woke up, read it and said “wow I’m not working for Modremoth anymore”. There would have to be a hell of a lore more than that to break a dragon’s corruption.

I’d say, think of it much in the way animals can be raised. On one hand you have the dog that gets plopped down in a great home with loving owners that treat it kindly, and are kindly to each other. That dog has better chances of also being a kindly dog, where as a different dog that was left all alone while it was growing up would be more wary of people, more feral, and possibly dangerous.

The pale tree able to sit and watch humans and centaurs getting along with each other and was shown that peace between long fought enemies could exist may have been enough to turn the pale tree from Mordremoth’s side. Glynt was branded, thus could have been directly controlled or influenced by Kralkatorrik, while the pale tree was just a mere creation, and might have a bit more free will, but that might not be the case, seeing as primordius’s creations all seem one-track-minded on destruction so you do have a point but that’s just one unanswerable question in a bundle of dots that all seem to connect without any counter-issues what-so-ever.

The Sylvari like to believe that the pale tree was created by Tyria (the planet) its self as a defense mechanism against the dragons, but i feel like this is kind of a crappy explanation for the appearance of an entire race of peoples, and them having come from the nature-themed elder dragon makes a ton more sense than the planet itself creating its own races.

Another interesting thing to note is that the other trees that Modremoth creates might give birth to minions that are nothing like the Sylvari, seeing as the Sylvari were shaped by the mind of the Pale Tree to appear like humans, both male and female. So chances are, other minions of Modremoth will not be humanoid.

Zayd Akira.1942:

VitalSuit.1980:

The thing about Glint is that the Forgotten used a special ritual to cleanse her corruption (which is proven in Arah path 3 when you cleanse an undead chicken’s corruption from Zhaitan and it becomes friendly). Ventari’s tablet was just sitting there. It’s not like the Sylvari woke up, read it and said “wow I’m not working for Modremoth anymore”. There would have to be a hell of a lore more than that to break a dragon’s corruption.

I’d say, think of it much in the way animals can be raised. On one hand you have the dog that gets plopped down in a great home with loving owners that treat it kindly, and are kindly to each other. That dog has better chances of also being a kindly dog, where as a different dog that was left all alone while it was growing up would be more wary of people, more feral, and possibly dangerous.

The pale tree able to sit and watch humans and centaurs getting along with each other and was shown that peace between long fought enemies could exist may have been enough to turn the pale tree from Mordremoth’s side. Glynt was branded, thus could have been directly controlled or influenced by Kralkatorrik, while the pale tree was just a mere creation, and might have a bit more free will, but that might not be the case, seeing as primordius’s creations all seem one-track-minded on destruction so you do have a point but that’s just one unanswerable question in a bundle of dots that all seem to connect without any counter-issues what-so-ever.

The Sylvari like to believe that the pale tree was created by Tyria (the planet) its self as a defense mechanism against the dragons, but i feel like this is kind of a crappy explanation for the appearance of an entire race of peoples, and them having come from the nature-themed elder dragon makes a ton more sense than the planet itself creating its own races.

It just doesn’t work like that. The Great Destroyer was hell bent on clearing out everything under Tyria’s surface in preparation for Primordus to wake, and Svanir went feral the moment he was corrupted.

Tai Kratos.3247:

Another interesting thing to note is that the other trees that Modremoth creates might give birth to minions that are nothing like the Sylvari, seeing as the Sylvari were shaped by the mind of the Pale Tree to appear like humans, both male and female. So chances are, other minions of Modremoth will not be humanoid.

See Malyck.

I’d like to think the sylvari have more to do with the dragons then simply “we came we dreamt we conquered” that is clear in the story. A lot of these theories are well thought out and this one has to be the best IMO. I believe the nightmare court will be at least to some extent minions of mordremoth. I think that they would make better villains/minions because they aren’t undead following zhaitan and their base instincts to kill anything alive. They aren’t the brainless destroyers of Primordus or the corrupted and changed people/animals that make up the minions of Kralkatorrik or Jormag. to me this makes the NC much more of a dangerous foe. Think of TA story mode… Without revealing who the last boss is for people who haven’t done it it is implied they will return and we have yet to see evidence of that!

But there’s absolutely nothing to back that theory. It’s just baseless speculation.

Tuomir.1830:

Zayd Akira.1942:

VitalSuit.1980:

The thing about Glint is that the Forgotten used a special ritual to cleanse her corruption (which is proven in Arah path 3 when you cleanse an undead chicken’s corruption from Zhaitan and it becomes friendly). Ventari’s tablet was just sitting there. It’s not like the Sylvari woke up, read it and said “wow I’m not working for Modremoth anymore”. There would have to be a hell of a lore more than that to break a dragon’s corruption.

I’d say, think of it much in the way animals can be raised. On one hand you have the dog that gets plopped down in a great home with loving owners that treat it kindly, and are kindly to each other. That dog has better chances of also being a kindly dog, where as a different dog that was left all alone while it was growing up would be more wary of people, more feral, and possibly dangerous.

The pale tree able to sit and watch humans and centaurs getting along with each other and was shown that peace between long fought enemies could exist may have been enough to turn the pale tree from Mordremoth’s side. Glynt was branded, thus could have been directly controlled or influenced by Kralkatorrik, while the pale tree was just a mere creation, and might have a bit more free will, but that might not be the case, seeing as primordius’s creations all seem one-track-minded on destruction so you do have a point but that’s just one unanswerable question in a bundle of dots that all seem to connect without any counter-issues what-so-ever.

The Sylvari like to believe that the pale tree was created by Tyria (the planet) its self as a defense mechanism against the dragons, but i feel like this is kind of a crappy explanation for the appearance of an entire race of peoples, and them having come from the nature-themed elder dragon makes a ton more sense than the planet itself creating its own races.

It just doesn’t work like that. The Great Destroyer was hell bent on clearing out everything under Tyria’s surface in preparation for Primordus to wake, and Svanir went feral the moment he was corrupted.

Tai Kratos.3247:

Another interesting thing to note is that the other trees that Modremoth creates might give birth to minions that are nothing like the Sylvari, seeing as the Sylvari were shaped by the mind of the Pale Tree to appear like humans, both male and female. So chances are, other minions of Modremoth will not be humanoid.

See Malyck.

Ventari’s Tablet itself could be the source of the Pale Trees cleansing and what frees it from Mordremoths control/corruption, much in the fashion of the ritual that was done to free glynt from Kralkkie. It kinda does just work like that. We already know that the true belief and goal of the Nightmare Court is to remove/destroy the tablet, believing that suddenly this will make the pale tree start doing more nightmare court approved activities.

Also, Malyk doesn’t know where he came from, And as he said before, he doesn’t remember being birthed from a pod, he simply remembers waking up under a bridge by a river bank. It’s proven he doesn’t come from the pale tree, but that’s about it. He could still have been from a mordremoth influenced tree and just fell and hit his head which gave him amnesia. This is what trahearne first thought had happened to Malyk in the first place!

Tuomir.1830:

But there’s absolutely nothing to back that theory. It’s just baseless speculation.

Mordremoth is pretty proven, there’s lots of evidence that shows that he exists.

Everything else fits so perfectly in the gaping hole that is the sylvari origin, there’s nothing that shows it could be real but there’s nothing that shows it isn’t either., hence why its a theory :P

Zayd Akira.1942:

Tuomir.1830:

But there’s absolutely nothing to back that theory. It’s just baseless speculation.

Mordremoth is pretty proven, there’s lots of evidence that shows that he exists.

Everything else fits so perfectly in the gaping hole that is the sylvari origin, there’s nothing that shows it could be real but there’s nothing that shows it isn’t either., hence why its a theory :P

Very well since there no evidence to disprove this theory how about a counter theory. It is possible the Sylvari are the creations of Melandru and left intentionally on Tyria to be planted prior to the Dragons awakening. That is why that one Sylvari not of the Pale Tree had a humanoid form as Melandru avatar form the Dervish utilizes has a humanoid appearance as well. Also in the trailer you see Caithe, or an Sylvari that is similar looking, awakening one of those tree creatures that are associated with Melandru. Perhaps after witnessing the Jotunn’s failures and humanity’s desire for war Melandru created the Sylvari in hopes of having the perfect chosen race to receive the gift of magic. Or perhaps the Sylvari are part of the cycle of the Elder Dragons. After the great devastation caused by them they along with other plant creatures would take root and sprout within a matter of years repopulating the planet with life. After awhile the Sylvari disappear and their home trees wither leaving seeds that are collected by the other seed creatures and stored for later use.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Zayd Akira.1942:

Tuomir.1830:

But there’s absolutely nothing to back that theory. It’s just baseless speculation.

Mordremoth is pretty proven, there’s lots of evidence that shows that he exists.

Everything else fits so perfectly in the gaping hole that is the sylvari origin, there’s nothing that shows it could be real but there’s nothing that shows it isn’t either., hence why its a theory :P

Very well since there no evidence to disprove this theory how about a counter theory. It is possible the Sylvari are the creations of Melandru and left intentionally on Tyria to be planted prior to the Dragons awakening. That is why that one Sylvari not of the Pale Tree had a humanoid form as Melandru avatar form the Dervish utilizes has a humanoid appearance as well. Also in the trailer you see Caithe, or an Sylvari that is similar looking, awakening one of those tree creatures that are associated with Melandru. Perhaps after witnessing the Jotunn’s failures and humanity’s desire for war Melandru created the Sylvari in hopes of having the perfect chosen race to receive the gift of magic. Or perhaps the Sylvari are part of the cycle of the Elder Dragons. After the great devastation caused by them they along with other plant creatures would take root and sprout within a matter of years repopulating the planet with life. After awhile the Sylvari disappear and their home trees wither leaving seeds that are collected by the other seed creatures and stored for later use.

Except the sylvari weren’t around when the Elder dragons came last time, The races that fought the Elder dragons during the last cycle were the Dwarves, Mursaat, Seers, Jotun, and Forgotten.
And it’s kind of weird for a human god to make a whole new race… That just doesn’t seem right, especially considering humans themselves are aliens to Tyria, and brought to the planet from a different one via the human gods. Why abandon a race they uprooted from one place to put in another, devoted so much time to, and even inducted one into their own ranks? (Kormir). Also, All of the human gods hated the idea of giving the humans/mortals magic. Abbadon was the only one that thought it was a good idea, and betrayed the other gods by giving the humans the Bloodstone, which the other human gods, Melandru included then banished Abbadon to the realm of chaos or whatever place that prison was, and Abbadon is dead now so he cant be doing his old shenanigans again =/

I originally was certain the pale tree and Sylvari were connected to Melandru at first, but it just doesn’t work. I wish it could be true though to at least proove the human gods haven’t vanished into total obscurity just sitting back watching their beloved people die.
Personally I think Kormir has something to do with why the gods are suddenly not doing crap, and the humans have to fend for themselves. She’s the god of stealing credit if you ask me!

Zayd Akira.1942:

Tuomir.1830:

Zayd Akira.1942:

VitalSuit.1980:

The thing about Glint is that the Forgotten used a special ritual to cleanse her corruption (which is proven in Arah path 3 when you cleanse an undead chicken’s corruption from Zhaitan and it becomes friendly). Ventari’s tablet was just sitting there. It’s not like the Sylvari woke up, read it and said “wow I’m not working for Modremoth anymore”. There would have to be a hell of a lore more than that to break a dragon’s corruption.

I’d say, think of it much in the way animals can be raised. On one hand you have the dog that gets plopped down in a great home with loving owners that treat it kindly, and are kindly to each other. That dog has better chances of also being a kindly dog, where as a different dog that was left all alone while it was growing up would be more wary of people, more feral, and possibly dangerous.

The pale tree able to sit and watch humans and centaurs getting along with each other and was shown that peace between long fought enemies could exist may have been enough to turn the pale tree from Mordremoth’s side. Glynt was branded, thus could have been directly controlled or influenced by Kralkatorrik, while the pale tree was just a mere creation, and might have a bit more free will, but that might not be the case, seeing as primordius’s creations all seem one-track-minded on destruction so you do have a point but that’s just one unanswerable question in a bundle of dots that all seem to connect without any counter-issues what-so-ever.

The Sylvari like to believe that the pale tree was created by Tyria (the planet) its self as a defense mechanism against the dragons, but i feel like this is kind of a crappy explanation for the appearance of an entire race of peoples, and them having come from the nature-themed elder dragon makes a ton more sense than the planet itself creating its own races.

It just doesn’t work like that. The Great Destroyer was hell bent on clearing out everything under Tyria’s surface in preparation for Primordus to wake, and Svanir went feral the moment he was corrupted.

Tai Kratos.3247:

Another interesting thing to note is that the other trees that Modremoth creates might give birth to minions that are nothing like the Sylvari, seeing as the Sylvari were shaped by the mind of the Pale Tree to appear like humans, both male and female. So chances are, other minions of Modremoth will not be humanoid.

See Malyck.

Ventari’s Tablet itself could be the source of the Pale Trees cleansing and what frees it from Mordremoths control/corruption, much in the fashion of the ritual that was done to free glynt from Kralkkie. It kinda does just work like that. We already know that the true belief and goal of the Nightmare Court is to remove/destroy the tablet, believing that suddenly this will make the pale tree start doing more nightmare court approved activities.

Also, Malyk doesn’t know where he came from, And as he said before, he doesn’t remember being birthed from a pod, he simply remembers waking up under a bridge by a river bank. It’s proven he doesn’t come from the pale tree, but that’s about it. He could still have been from a mordremoth influenced tree and just fell and hit his head which gave him amnesia. This is what trahearne first thought had happened to Malyk in the first place!

Oh please. You think growing next to the philosophical scriptures of an old centaur outcast equals an ancient cleansing ritual by the forgotten?

And did you even read what I was answering to with Malyck? Tai Kratos was suggesting that other pale trees would make minions that wouldn’t be humanoid, because the Pale Tree shaped sylvari after humans. The existence of Malyck disproves this outright. Also, the Pale Tree also makes the fern hounds, further invalidating that theory.

A theory with nothing to back is not a theory. It’s the same as if you seriously presented a theory that there is a kitten base on the dark side of the moon.

Zayd Akira.1942:

Tuomir.1830:

But there’s absolutely nothing to back that theory. It’s just baseless speculation.

Mordremoth is pretty proven, there’s lots of evidence that shows that he exists.

Everything else fits so perfectly in the gaping hole that is the sylvari origin, there’s nothing that shows it could be real but there’s nothing that shows it isn’t either., hence why its a theory :P

I’m not doubting the existence of Mordremoth. I’m just saying that the theory that links him to sylvari is bogus.

Zayd Akira.1942:

Except the sylvari weren’t around when the Elder dragons came last time, The races that fought the Elder dragons during the last cycle were the Dwarves, Mursaat, Seers, Jotun, and Forgotten.

At this time. Anet does have the power to retract what they said as it comes from the perspective of the humans, norn, charr, and Asura. Also It is possible the human gods weren’t present in the previous cycle either as it mention Abaddon gaining his power from an older deity.

And it’s kind of weird for a human god to make a whole new race… That just doesn’t seem right, especially considering humans themselves are aliens to Tyria, and brought to the planet from a different one via the human gods. Why abandon a race they uprooted from one place to put in another, devoted so much time to, and even inducted one into their own ranks? (Kormir).

Perhaps because they grew tired of the senseless violence the humans were engaged in. The war with the Charr began due to the Charr first being forced off their homelands by the ancient Ascalonians. The People of Kryta were at war with the Centaur over lands belonging to the Centaur. As for Kormir they really didn’t have much of a choice as Abaddon’s death would of caused untold devastation unless a mortal jumped in and absorbed the power. They chose a human since well they are the human gods of Tyria. Now if they were the Asuran Gods or Charr Gods they probably wold of picked a member of those races. Also I never said Melandru had help from the other gods in this endeavor. Perhaps she found humans unworthy of being nature’s protectors while her current protectors were too easily killed. Perhaps then she decided it was time for nature to have it own voice and made the Sylvari. Perhaps after making them she was regretful of the deed and thus placed them in the cave to be used when the world truly needed such protectors. From how it presented the Gods of Tyria are capable of making mistakes and hasty actions. Perhaps she didn’t even make them but the human gods own creator, someone had to give birth to Balzathar and his twin brother perhaps they all related.

Also, All of the human gods hated the idea of giving the humans/mortals magic. Abbadon was the only one that thought it was a good idea, and betrayed the other gods by giving the humans the Bloodstone, which the other human gods, Melandru included then banished Abbadon to the realm of chaos or whatever place that prison was,

There mention of a Jotunn who explains in the ancient past the Jotunn were highly intelligence and capable of using magic as the Gods had given it to them. They grew tired of the Jotunn and thus took back their gift of magic only to give it to the new favorite race, humans. Perhaps that was Abaddon’s original purpose he would observe a race and inform the others when he feels they ready for the gift of magic. After all agreed the gift was bestowed upon said race, if that race abused it they took it away. Abaddon found humans worthy of having the gift but didn’t bother with protocol and just handed them magic. The other gods didn’t know because they were busy with their duties until the ancient human king knelt before them and informed them of the action. This would explain how the five did nothing about Abaddon giving magic to humans initially.

I originally was certain the pale tree and Sylvari were connected to Melandru at first, but it just doesn’t work. I wish it could be true though to at least proove the human gods haven’t vanished into total obscurity just sitting back watching their beloved people die.

Could you please explain how it doesn’t work? I am curious to see the flaws in my own theory.

Personally I think Kormir has something to do with why the gods are suddenly not doing crap, and the humans have to fend for themselves. She’s the god of stealing credit if you ask me!

Perhaps Abaddon is using the power Kormir has inherited from him to manipulate her and his fellow gods into inaction? Given Abaddon’s sphere of secrets and magic I would think he had a back up plan in case the other five stopped him, especially given how many years he had to formulate this plan. Perhaps this was all part of his plan, he chose Kormir the moment she awakened the Apocrypha (as it does imply when she read from it Abaddon could influence her) to be the instrument of his revenge. Of course she’s mortal which is a nasty little obstacle but one he navigated around by ‘lending’ some of his divine power to her making her immortal. After her ascension to godhood we never hear of her again the other five are still mention but not her…until 250 years later where statues of her now stand amongst the older gods. Now I better stop before my theories break the insanity meter.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Perhaps Abaddon is using the power Kormir has inherited from him to manipulate her and his fellow gods into inaction? Given Abaddon’s sphere of secrets and magic I would think he had a back up plan in case the other five stopped him, especially given how many years he had to formulate this plan. Perhaps this was all part of his plan, he chose Kormir the moment she awakened the Apocrypha (as it does imply when she read from it Abaddon could influence her) to be the instrument of his revenge. Of course she’s mortal which is a nasty little obstacle but one he navigated around by ‘lending’ some of his divine power to her making her immortal. After her ascension to godhood we never hear of her again the other five are still mention but not her…until 250 years later where statues of her now stand amongst the older gods. Now I better stop before my theories break the insanity meter.

If I remember correctly, abbadon got his powers from killing some spider god thing, and I dont think abbadon can be controlling or influencing kormir with his powers because he is in all forms: Dead. Done. Gone. After Grenth killed Dhuum, Dhuum still survived because he was indestructible, and that is known, but everything i’ve read says that abbadon was obliterated, he’s gone.
All this talk about the human gods doing things that they shouldn’t does seem to lend that maybe melandru was naughty and made the pale tree seeds.
It says that melandru was most committed to protecting the earth and bringing peace to all the races of tyria, so her making the sylvari isnt totally unfounded.
I still think its very unlikely though.

Zayd Akira.1942:

If I remember correctly, abbadon got his powers from killing some spider god thing, and I dont think abbadon can be controlling or influencing kormir with his powers because he is in all forms: Dead. Done. Gone. After Grenth killed Dhuum, Dhuum still survived because he was indestructible, and that is known, but everything i’ve read says that abbadon was obliterated, he’s gone.

Actually it just said Abaddon acquired his power from a god much older than him, it never specify whom or what this god was. Also he is the God of Secrets after all, I wouldn’t be surprised he kept his continued survival a secret all these years. Plus if one of the gods is indestructible than why not the others? This means that anyone can take the gods divinity for themselves if they find a way to kill them.

All this talk about the human gods doing things that they shouldn’t does seem to lend that maybe melandru was naughty and made the pale tree seeds.
It says that melandru was most committed to protecting the earth and bringing peace to all the races of tyria, so her making the sylvari isnt totally unfounded.
I still think its very unlikely though.

Well another theory could be there the result of when Abaddon gave magic to the humans, one human decided to make a race of plant people to be an ‘inexhaustible’ army but had to shelf the project when his magic was taken from him as he had no means of accelerating the growth of the tree anymore. The Sylvari origins can go in any direction, each being just as unlikely as the next. Perhaps Glint, after her cleansing, used her knowledge of the Elder Dragons and magic to create the seeds. She then had the forgotten store the seeds where she knew they would be found. So in a sense they are ‘dragon minions’ but of a dragon minion who wishes to protect the world from their former master and its kin.

I do believe Sylvari are linked to Mordremoth, but with a twist…

First things first: Imo, trying to find a connection between the Sylvari and Melandru is a faux paux, because if we accept Melandru created the Sylvari, we have two problems:
1) Why only Melandru? Why don’t the other gods created each a race to receive their magic/ be the new favorite? If we accept one of the human god as a creator of a new race, we have to use the same standard for the others. So, we should have the race of Dwayna, Kormir and so on… which it’s not the case at all.
Plus, as far as we know, not even the human gods can create a race (they can create, at most, simpler creatures like the oakhearts): the humans aren’t their creation, they moved them on Tyria in ancient time from another place.
2) I have some problems with time line + Sylvari growth as a society. In short: the Sylvari nation is 25 years old and it’s already competing with others, more powerful races, and not only in technology, but economically too (Sylvari luxury items are the new black in LA, at least from in game dialogue).
It seems too much for a new race with free will granted by a benevolent god… I see more an awakening giant who is preparing for war. So at most, the theory of the Sylvari created from Tyria itself to fight dragons has much more sense, to me, even if it seems a little dull…

But onward with my baseless speculation…
I wish to believe it exists a connection between Mordremoth and the Sylvari because… well it works, but I agree we have circumstantial evidence at most for now. Even if circumstantial however, they are a little too widespread to be just simple coincidences: the Sylvari can’t be branded like the other races, the Sylvari are fruitless like the minions of the other elder dragons and the Dream collect all the experience the Sylvari gather, in a way not so different from Zhaitan and its risens… and so on.
But I refuse to believe, the Ventari tablets are what cleansed the Pale Tree: otherwise, Malyck would have been a feral Sylvari subdued on Mordremoth will, so a lot less “civilized” and open to discussion than what we see in game.
I believe we have, or had, a third party who attended the seeds of the Pale trees (The Grove and the one who gave birth to Malyck): tell me what you think about my thesis.

According to lore, the seed of the Pale tree was one among many, found in a hidden cave by a soldier named Ronan. “One among many”… this is what bothered me for a while: if Mordremoth would have wanted to seed its minion to overpower the races of Tyria, keeping all the eggs in the same basket seems unwise, especially because the seed were, by definition, defenseless (Ronan picked one of them with no problem at all).
So something, or someone, could have wasted years, or even centuries, collecting the seeds of Mordremoth champions. Why bother with that? Because, if you have the power to cleanse the corruption of the dragons, you could create virtually an endless army to fight them in a very short time (decades instead of millennia), using the very weapons the Dragon created against them….
Do you see where I’m going?
If the Forgottens enter the equation (and we know they are capable and well versed in meddling with the dragons ), many things become much more clear. What Ronan found, was a Forgotten Vault where the cleansed seeds were safely stored for future uses. The Ventari Tablets are…like the first words the Pale Tree understood, the first nourishment it received, not what cleansed it. Something the Pale tree choose for itself, after being freed from the Forgotten Vault.
And this would explain why Malyck is… not so different from the Sylvari of the Pale tree: he isn’t. He just miss the Dream of his tree, but there is more than one explanation for this (he could be the firstborn of his tree, for instance).
And this thesis would explain somehow the Nightmare Court too: they aren’t feral like the other Dragon minions, because they are born after the cleansing of their tree. They hear Mordremoth’s call (like Glint did with Kralkatorrik) and accept it (instead of refusing it like the Dreamers), but they keep their own individuality, because it’s shielded by what cleansed the seeds. The Nightmare Court itself isn’t aligned with Mordremoth either (as far as we know): they are xenophobic, violent and isolationist, hell bent on removing the Ventari tablets from the Pale trees roots, because the idea that a centaur could give laws to the Sylvari makes them sick.

And for last, the idea that something cleansed the seeds of the Pale trees beforehand, would explain too why we don’t know anything about Mordremoth, even if its champions are growing: the elder dragons prosper on the magic they can devour, by themself or through their minions. Because the Sylvari don’t consume magic (thanks to the cleansing of the seeds) Mordremoth is starving somewhere in a weakened state where its power are limited and its force sealed… an easy prey for the Pact, and likely our next target as players.

I was doing some reading on Glint and something struck me as odd. It said she predates the human gods and was turned into a branded by Kralkatorrik then cleansed by the forgotten. This has left me with a question. What if the Elder Dragons aren’t the only dragons that existed in Tyria’s history? What if the Elder Dragons are only the dragons who decided to abuse magic and become ‘gods’? If this is the case then perhaps there were many ‘jungle dragons’ at one time and the Sylvari could be their creation just as easily as being Mordremoth or Melandru’s creations.

Tuomir.1830:

Zayd Akira.1942:

Tuomir.1830:

Zayd Akira.1942:

VitalSuit.1980:

The thing about Glint is that the Forgotten used a special ritual to cleanse her corruption (which is proven in Arah path 3 when you cleanse an undead chicken’s corruption from Zhaitan and it becomes friendly). Ventari’s tablet was just sitting there. It’s not like the Sylvari woke up, read it and said “wow I’m not working for Modremoth anymore”. There would have to be a hell of a lore more than that to break a dragon’s corruption.

I’d say, think of it much in the way animals can be raised. On one hand you have the dog that gets plopped down in a great home with loving owners that treat it kindly, and are kindly to each other. That dog has better chances of also being a kindly dog, where as a different dog that was left all alone while it was growing up would be more wary of people, more feral, and possibly dangerous.

The pale tree able to sit and watch humans and centaurs getting along with each other and was shown that peace between long fought enemies could exist may have been enough to turn the pale tree from Mordremoth’s side. Glynt was branded, thus could have been directly controlled or influenced by Kralkatorrik, while the pale tree was just a mere creation, and might have a bit more free will, but that might not be the case, seeing as primordius’s creations all seem one-track-minded on destruction so you do have a point but that’s just one unanswerable question in a bundle of dots that all seem to connect without any counter-issues what-so-ever.

The Sylvari like to believe that the pale tree was created by Tyria (the planet) its self as a defense mechanism against the dragons, but i feel like this is kind of a crappy explanation for the appearance of an entire race of peoples, and them having come from the nature-themed elder dragon makes a ton more sense than the planet itself creating its own races.

It just doesn’t work like that. The Great Destroyer was hell bent on clearing out everything under Tyria’s surface in preparation for Primordus to wake, and Svanir went feral the moment he was corrupted.

Tai Kratos.3247:

Another interesting thing to note is that the other trees that Modremoth creates might give birth to minions that are nothing like the Sylvari, seeing as the Sylvari were shaped by the mind of the Pale Tree to appear like humans, both male and female. So chances are, other minions of Modremoth will not be humanoid.

See Malyck.

Ventari’s Tablet itself could be the source of the Pale Trees cleansing and what frees it from Mordremoths control/corruption, much in the fashion of the ritual that was done to free glynt from Kralkkie. It kinda does just work like that. We already know that the true belief and goal of the Nightmare Court is to remove/destroy the tablet, believing that suddenly this will make the pale tree start doing more nightmare court approved activities.

Also, Malyk doesn’t know where he came from, And as he said before, he doesn’t remember being birthed from a pod, he simply remembers waking up under a bridge by a river bank. It’s proven he doesn’t come from the pale tree, but that’s about it. He could still have been from a mordremoth influenced tree and just fell and hit his head which gave him amnesia. This is what trahearne first thought had happened to Malyk in the first place!

Oh please. You think growing next to the philosophical scriptures of an old centaur outcast equals an ancient cleansing ritual by the forgotten?

And did you even read what I was answering to with Malyck? Tai Kratos was suggesting that other pale trees would make minions that wouldn’t be humanoid, because the Pale Tree shaped sylvari after humans. The existence of Malyck disproves this outright. Also, the Pale Tree also makes the fern hounds, further invalidating that theory.

A theory with nothing to back is not a theory. It’s the same as if you seriously presented a theory that there is a kitten base on the dark side of the moon.

Growing next to the tablet? Not necessarily. Didn’t Ventari die at the site of the Pale Tree? I assumed it was possible that the Tree absorbed him, and as such, (magic, folks) absorbed either muscle memory, or Ventari’s “essence”, and that this is what has influenced the Sylvari inherently.

Sigh. This again.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/On-the-Sixth-Elder-Dragon-and-its-corruption/first

“Here, over here!”

Gotta ask:
1) Is there any reason why we couldn’t believe that the Sylvari are Mordremoth’s champion’s minions (not cleansed)? Do they have to be crazy? I mean, the undead, yeah, mindless zombies. Fire dragon? Yeah, raging crazies. Crystal dragon? Dominance, confusion, mind control. Why wouldn’t the “life” dragon be different? I have read that the dragon’s don’t get along, maybe Mordremoth is trying a different strategy? He wouldn’t really care that the Sylvari are killing the other dragons. We may have a huge disaster on our hands (I’m assuming that some of the Sylvari will resist when he awakes )
2) Well known and established parallel between the dragons and the gods. Perhaps they’re afraid/forced out because of the dragons? Now that Zihtan is dead, perhaps Kormir can make an appearance?

Anthony.7219:

Gotta ask:
1) Is there any reason why we couldn’t believe that the Sylvari are Mordremoth’s champion’s minions (not cleansed)? Do they have to be crazy? I mean, the undead, yeah, mindless zombies. Fire dragon? Yeah, raging crazies. Crystal dragon? Dominance, confusion, mind control. Why wouldn’t the “life” dragon be different? I have read that the dragon’s don’t get along, maybe Mordremoth is trying a different strategy? He wouldn’t really care that the Sylvari are killing the other dragons. We may have a huge disaster on our hands (I’m assuming that some of the Sylvari will resist when he awakes )
2) Well known and established parallel between the dragons and the gods. Perhaps they’re afraid/forced out because of the dragons? Now that Zihtan is dead, perhaps Kormir can make an appearance?

Yes, there is a reason. Because what we know of dragons, at present is
1. They are all evil.
2. They “gain” minions via corrupting them, not “making” them.

So while the whole dragon thing is a “cool conspiracy theory”, it doesn’t fit in with the current lore. It just doesn’t. For them to be dragon minions, two things which fly in the face of all we know about dragons and their minions and corruption would have to be true.

1. There is a superhero dragon that is benevolent.
2. Superhero dragon can make minions, he doesn’t corrupt them.

I think that’s just way too much of a jump to make, again because it goes against EVERYTHING WE KNOW ABOUT THEM RIGHT NOW.

Do I think these coincidences are all inter-related? Definitely. But to think that a dragon is the answer is too big of a leap to make. One shouldn’t theorize before having sufficient data – because inevitably, it leads to twisting facts to suit theories, rather than theories to suit facts.

Ezekiel.1985:

Anthony.7219:

Gotta ask:
1) Is there any reason why we couldn’t believe that the Sylvari are Mordremoth’s champion’s minions (not cleansed)? Do they have to be crazy? I mean, the undead, yeah, mindless zombies. Fire dragon? Yeah, raging crazies. Crystal dragon? Dominance, confusion, mind control. Why wouldn’t the “life” dragon be different? I have read that the dragon’s don’t get along, maybe Mordremoth is trying a different strategy? He wouldn’t really care that the Sylvari are killing the other dragons. We may have a huge disaster on our hands (I’m assuming that some of the Sylvari will resist when he awakes )
2) Well known and established parallel between the dragons and the gods. Perhaps they’re afraid/forced out because of the dragons? Now that Zihtan is dead, perhaps Kormir can make an appearance?

Yes, there is a reason. Because what we know of dragons, at present is
1. They are all evil.
2. They “gain” minions via corrupting them, not “making” them.

So while the whole dragon thing is a “cool conspiracy theory”, it doesn’t fit in with the current lore. It just doesn’t. For them to be dragon minions, two things which fly in the face of all we know about dragons and their minions and corruption would have to be true.

1. There is a superhero dragon that is benevolent.
2. Superhero dragon can make minions, he doesn’t corrupt them.

I think that’s just way too much of a jump to make, again because it goes against EVERYTHING WE KNOW ABOUT THEM RIGHT NOW.

Do I think these coincidences are all inter-related? Definitely. But to think that a dragon is the answer is too big of a leap to make. One shouldn’t theorize before having sufficient data – because inevitably, it leads to twisting facts to suit theories, rather than theories to suit facts.

Maybe the dragon exists only in the dream, and will corrupt the sylvari from within. The asura will create a way for us to visit the dream to assist the sylvari by fighting the dragon inside the dream.

Naw, that cant be it