Guild Wars 2

With how much our race is morally based around Ventari’s tablet, why don’t we actually follow its teaching? We follow the teaching a little bit, but other times act so human with self-serving morals.

One of the teachings state
“IV. All things have a right to grow. The blossom is brother to the weed.”

We step out into the world and encounter a group of termites attacking the wardenlight tree. Do we follow these teaching and give the termites a right to grow? Hell no, we bust out our weapons and exterminate them. So much for treating a weed like a brother.

That’s just us defending ourselves from an attack though, so maybe we can claim self defense! Walk a few steps further along the path. Oh hey, a new event! We need to light up the path. Go exterminate all the nearby, harmless fireflies for their luminescence!

We get the lights working after a brief bout of firefly genocide and what happens? Mosquitoes are attracted to the light. Do we stop for a moment to consider ways to peacefully resolve this? Maybe find alternative lighting or a method of coexisting with the mosquitoes? No, we keep acting like humans and once again exterminate everything that’s in the way.

The very first 2 event chains we encounter as we leave our peaceful grove make us violate the Ventari teachings.

I love my sylvari a lot, but my one complaint is that we act so much like humans. Why is our first thought whenever another species bothers us, to just kill them all? I can understand this type of event being in the starter area for any other race, but you’d think the sylvari starter would at least have interesting events that match up with our moral code.

For the most part I feel like they did a great job with the Sylvari quests, but I think the OP has a solid point. There were a few glaring moments where I literally stopped playing and thought, my Sylvari would never do this. Specifically the quest that encourages you to SET FIRE to brambles in order to disrupt the Nightmare Court. Culling or trimming the brambles, maybe. But burning down the forest? What the…?This felt so far removed from our ethos I completed the quest without doing it. Also, I get guilty every time I have to chop a tree down to harvest materials. Feels totally wrong. Ventari would not approve. Also, our take no prisoners approch to the Nightmare Court feels a bit extreme. (SPOILER ALERT) I was shocked when Caithe just stabbed that informant to death after she gave us intel. Nightmare Court is made up of former members of the grove, former friends and family. Seems a bit harsh to just slaughter them on sight. But the krait I have zero sympathy for. Those heartless kittens deserve all they get.

very interesting!! I did notice that too while I was leveling up my Sylvari. As long as you bow to the trees, plants and ores we should be ok. :P

I don’t think they ignore those teachings at all. I think they strive to live towards those goals. They are young and inexperienced. It is one thing to learn these teachings in the Dream, and it is something else entirely to achieve them in the waking world.

angelicchoir.7902:

I don’t think they ignore those teachings at all. I think they strive to live towards those goals. They are young and inexperienced. It is one thing to learn these teachings in the Dream, and it is something else entirely to achieve them in the waking world.

This could be the case, but generally when you’re striving for something, you actively think about how to do it. During these event chains, there isn’t the slightest bit of hesitation or remorse. No remark about how regretful it is that we must kill others so that we may survive.

Additionally, we seem to do just fine with the rest of the teachings on the tablet. It’s the rule about all things having a right to grow that we seem to blow of at every opportunity.

Instead of running around slaughtering fireflies for luminescence, we would capture them in order to learn about how they create light. This slight switch in the event is almost the same thing, yet more in line with the sylvari moral code.

Astrum.3652:

angelicchoir.7902:

I don’t think they ignore those teachings at all. I think they strive to live towards those goals. They are young and inexperienced. It is one thing to learn these teachings in the Dream, and it is something else entirely to achieve them in the waking world.

This could be the case, but generally when you’re striving for something, you actively think about how to do it. During these event chains, there isn’t the slightest bit of hesitation or remorse. No remark about how regretful it is that we must kill others so that we may survive.

Additionally, we seem to do just fine with the rest of the teachings on the tablet. It’s the rule about all things having a right to grow that we seem to blow of at every opportunity.

Instead of running around slaughtering fireflies for luminescence, we would capture them in order to learn about how they create light. This slight switch in the event is almost the same thing, yet more in line with the sylvari moral code.

Yeah, I see what you are saying. I think it is as simple as game mechanics. We can’t have one race running around trying not to kill or harm anything, when combat is the main focus of the game.

Obviously an mmo requires killing mobs, but I think for Sylvari, killing should be a last resort, in self-defense, or for the greater good of nature. And I agree with the OP that the luminesance questline is a bit harsh. And it implies that all the beautiful glowing effects in the grove were built on the corpses of millions of insects. Seriously though, we Sylvari gotta come up with a better way to light our lamps. This highly impractical method just attracts too many darn mosquitos.

Having said all that, Sylvari are not all sensitive, wilting flowers. We have a dark, poisonous, vicious side. Just as nature does. “This rose has thorns!” I often find myself drawn to the Nightmare Court. But even the court uses nature to sow their seeds of discord. They wouldn’t burn down the forest.

Also Ventari was a centaur, which I think is significant. A truly violent race. Should we really be following the teachings of a non-plant?? I mean, I’m totally devoted to the pale tree, but I’m just sayin’…..

Like most religious writings, there will be multiple interpretations of the same script. e.g.: “All things have a right to grow” That includes you. where’s the line when two people come in conflict? That line is open to interpretation, personal experience and personal values. it could mean don’t kill anything ever or it could mean that maintaining the natural violent cycle is important as long as you don’t exterminate anyone.

Like many religious codes, the Ventari Tablet contradicts itself. “Never leave a wrong to ripen into evil or sorrow” and “All things have a right to grow” in particular clash since if an evil is unrepentent, how are you to stop it from committing evil without “uprooting” it and violating the fourth tenet? (And you can’t just do nothing either, since the 6th tenet instructs you to “act”).

Furthermore, the tenets are not organised in any level of hierarchy, so it really falls to each individual sylvari to decide which one they think takes precedence in any given situation.

Eh. i wouldn’t say it contradicts itself. it would only contradict itself if it had a stated hierarchy that directly conflicted or if we assume all tenants hold equal strength in every situation without wavering. But we see it has no stated hierarchy and it only contradicts itself if we start from an assumtion that it contradicts itself.

edit: Also, this may be a factor in the OP’s question.

Elli: I see, so they are not always nice, friendly people.

Ree: Right, they are people with a goal and when you have someone who is very driven towards a goal that person is not always easy to get along with. Elli:

So they’re not only always-happy-hippie-trees.

Ree: Not always, no. And because they never experienced childhood sometimes their emotions can be a little too strong. When you’re ten years old and someone steals your toy or smash your hand – boy, are you angry! You just don’t know what to do with that anger, you’re throwing things at the wall and the Sylvari have to go through that too, they have to understand what those emotions mean, they still have them very powerfully and they don’t always have the sort of defense mechanic out of growing up, defense mechanisms to really just deal with it in a mature fashion. And it’s not like their children or babies, it’s very much like they just respond so passionately that sometimes they’re not nice to be around. Sometimes they’re very difficult.

Elli: I think what’s like this is a civilisation that is – when a child is growing up, then you learn things, you don’t do this, you behave like this and that.

Ree: Exactly. And some of that they have in the dream and some of that they have being educated after being awakened, but a Sylvari who goes out in the world is maybe…say two years old. You’re Sylvari is significantly less old. So imagine consolidating your whole childhood into two years. That’s how much time you’ve had with those lessons.

http://www.wartower.de/artikel/artikel.php?id=651

Zaxares.5419:

Like many religious codes, the Ventari Tablet contradicts itself. “Never leave a wrong to ripen into evil or sorrow” and “All things have a right to grow” in particular clash since if an evil is unrepentent, how are you to stop it from committing evil without “uprooting” it and violating the fourth tenet? (And you can’t just do nothing either, since the 6th tenet instructs you to “act”).

Furthermore, the tenets are not organised in any level of hierarchy, so it really falls to each individual sylvari to decide which one they think takes precedence in any given situation.

The tenet “Never leave a wrong to ripen into evil or sorrow” is almost a warning for Sylvari. It aknowledges that evil already exists, but it urges them to prevent further evil from spreading or growing. How a sylvari chooses to do that, is largely up to their own beliefs.

“All things have a right to grow. The blossom is brother to the weed.” I am having trouble trying to describe this one. It urges all Sylvari to respect the idea and opinions of others, until such time as those ideals come into conflict with those of other people. This is largely why the Nightmare Court is such a big enemy to Sylvari everywhere – though they have the right to their opinions, they have no right to force those opinions onto other Sylvari, who might disagree with them (the Nightmare Court) in the first place.

My sylvari went secretly to the nightmare side, she loves to burn trees and chop bunnies for the daily. when nobody is watching.

Well the sylvari aren’t a hive mind, they all see Ventari’s teachings in their own ways and it’s not just the Nightmare Court that disagrees with his teachings. As for for the specific line: “IV. All things have a right to grow. The blossom is brother to the weed.” I think it comes down to a matter of interpretation, especially when you consider it says “grow” not “live.” A current threat has no right to live as it has had its time to grow into a threat.

So say a sylvari sticking close to that tenant would not kill a Krait child as the child still has time to grow and make its own desicions as if it will be a threat to the sylvari or not. A full grown, threatening, Krait is a whole different matter. It has already made its choice and has thus forfeited its right to live. (On that note, the termites are actively destroying a food source, that’s a threat.)

As for things such as the fireflies, various sylvari seem to see killing insects in different ways. There’s a farmer that chants that line because she’s frustrated about a grub eating her plants, but she doesn’t kill it. The girl tending the lamps probably doesn’t classify fireflies as “high enough” to be included in that tenant. They see his teachings differently.

Regarding the Nightmare Court: Anything Nightmare corrupted has been established as 100% unsaveable. They have courtiers in the Grove’s prison but even plants corrupted by Nightmare can only be destroyed. Just trimming thorns or sparing courtiers is not going to do anyone any good. There is no coming back from Nightmare anymore than there is coming back from being risen.

Being a race of gentle pacifists doesn’t really work when they’re assaulted by risen on one side, the Court on another side, and various vicious jungle beasts filling in the gaps in between. Not to mention their goal as a species is to end the dragons’ corruption. You don’t do that without smashing some faces in. They’re also omnivores, so likely see killing animals as something necessary to eat. As for chopping down trees… Come on, they have to kill plants to eat them unless they plan to survive on fruit and sand. A tree getting cut down for supplies is hardly a breach of Ventari’s teaching. The sylvari are not that peaceful of a species.

The point I’m trying to make is that there are a lot of alternatives to the actions that the sylvari take.

Why kill fireflies to light your lamps when you could easily study them or find some plant with natural illumination and use that? This is an inconsistency on the most basic level that can’t be justified under the ventari’s tablet.

There are more complex problems like what sylvari should do when they are being attacked. Yet even those problems could have solutions different from what we’ve been doing so far. Grubs trying to destroy your tree? Why not find a way to lure them to a different area? Sending an army of grubs to a nightmare court hangout would solve two problems at once. Or planting a different tree for the grubs to eat would be pretty simple, continue the circle of life.

There are so many alternatives to what the sylvari do. We as humans see their actions as natural because that’s what we would do, but a race that’s suppose to embrace harmony with nature, killing off the local population of insects is a huge contradiction.

I would like to see the sylvari doing things that seem alien to humans. Having them follow human tendencies like exterminating any threats or competition just doesn’t have the feel of a race in tune with nature and the cycle of life.

If the tablet was “open to interpretation” then we would see different sylvari dealing with each situation differently. Instead we see most sylvari all following the same tendencies.

I can understand from a development standpoint why the syvari are like this since coming up with an entirely different lifestyle to implement would take a lot of extra time. However, I would really enjoy seeing alterations to the sylvari over time that reflect their “one with nature” persona. Aside from this one point though, I really do enjoy the sylvari a lot.

“In tune with nature” does not mean peaceful. They are a part of nature and nature is not kind, loving, or forgiving. I think you’re looking for something along the lines of… “tree hippies.” The “cycle of life” still applies if they’re driving away threats. Is it not a natural part of the cycle of life for other things to be killed by other creatures? For territory, protection, or food. Nature is not friendly.

I still fail to see how this goes against Ventari’s teaching. It’s open to interpretation and various sylvari do approach it different ways, as I have already shown. It’s silly to expect every single sylvari to act completely differently. They can see his teachings in a myriad of different ways but still have a general moral code. I’m not sure why the idea is odd to you? It is very much like our real life religions and ethical codes.

I have not seen much, if any, evidence in game that the sylvari are supposed to be so ~one with nature~ that killing another creature or cutting down a tree for supplies is against their world views. There is one group in Mount Malestrom that disapproves of killing anything (except the Inquest because they are destroying the land) and even ask you to be careful where you walk so as to not kill insects. These are a minority however and none of them, as far as I recall, quoted Ventari’s tablet as justification.

I don’t see “everything has a right to grow” as something that should be taken so literally and mean never kill or interfere with anything at all.

In my eyes, its meant more to discourage discrimination against other creatures / races. Treat everything as equal, everything has just as much of a right to exist and “grow” as the Sylvari themselves do. That doesn’t mean never kill, it just means that there needs to be a reason for you to kill, whether that reason be defense against an encroaching destructive species or needing to kill an insect to use part of its body. Don’t kill on account of them being different or inferior to yourself or the Sylvari.

And we actually see in game that NPC’s quote the same tablet and interpret it diffrently, wich is what would likely actually happen since the tablet rules are so basic and short. Look at our own laws. they are so specific and detailed yet we have a whole area of study dedicated to interpreting them and their current interpretation is continually challenged.

Ah… Ventari’s teachings are a bit mad aren’t they? They work quite well though I feel. The problem may rise when you realise Malyck, a Sylvari not born of the Pale Tree, isn’t that much different from our fellow Sylvari.
Sylvari are also not a hive mind, otherwise gameplay as them would be terrible. Sylvari are individuals, they might be more in tune with nature than other races, but they all see the world differently. Which is why their beliefs, aka Ventari’s Tablet, are often discussed, challenged aaand poof, Nightmare Court.

Here’s my understanding of Ventari’s Tablet anyway.
I. Don’t waste food, seriously. It’s just good manners man.
II. Similar to how I was taught Taekwondo, there is an easy way and a hard way. If you’re gonna avoid the hard way, feel free to walk out, because you’ll get no benefit.
III. A more spiritual one. Almost all Sylvari of the dream are calm, so, yeah, pretty sure we’ve followed it anyway.
IV. All things have the right to make their own choices and choose their own destiny. Don’t use prejudice and don’t hate an entire group for an individual’s doing, especially against children. (See also, Norn)
V. It’s okay to make mistakes, but make sure you fix them when you do.
VI. My personal favourite. It is better to be an idiot who gets everything wrong than a fool who does nothing. It is best to not run in blindly, but running in blind is better than running away.
VII. Travel around…? I’ve never actually understood this one. Hunt down all life?

The Sylvari, while inherently kind and caring, don’t restrict themselves to pacifism like Ventari did. I don’t believe Ventari intended for his teachings to force pacifism either, he was wise enough to know that people won’t easily completely forgo violence, but also sometimes violence is necessary (world in danger by a giant dragon for instance). If anything, his teachings encourage fighting (against evil) and do not once discourage hunting. Killing for fun and evuls however is a big nono.

Sylvari should not be pacifists. I love how we are fully able and willing to use force to do what needs to be done. However, having violence being a first resort for the sylvari is what just seems off. Sylvari should look for other ways to resolve their problems and if all of that fails, then use our incredible fighting capability to resolve the situation. We should seek harmony, but not in a tree hippy way. Simply by first looking for peaceful solutions, we can show our efforts to allow all things the right to grow. If that fails then we can show how “this rose has thorns” and strike down anything that opposes us. It just shouldn’t be our first course of action.

As the sylvari are now, we’re basically just plant looking humans. We use violence anytime something is a little bit difficult instead of even considering alternatives. We see anything without intelligence as beneath us and don’t hesitate to wipe out massive amount of fireflies, mosquitoes, grubs, or even plant life in order to get what we want.

What I’d like from sylvari is something different than humans. I’d love to see sylvari have tendencies and a way of life that’s intriguing and alien to us, something that we don’t see everyday already. Humans already cover actions like killing insects if they have something we want or wiping out grubs when they pose a threat. I see no reason why sylvari should be the same in that regard.

As I said before, I can understand why the sylvari are like this due to time and manpower limitations when creating gw2. That being said, I would still like to see the sylvari be more unique in their way of life than this. In the other areas though, the sylvari are spot on. I love the way they look, their clothing style, the architecture, the whole atmosphere of their city, the different personalities, their manner of speech, the lore behind them, and so much more.

There’s a ton that arena net got right about the sylvari. I made this thread to bring up a way in which an already amazing race could be even better. My objections to the sylvari way of life is only to help improve them, not to say they’re a bad race.

But sylvari are far from non-violent. They have duels, they fight risen, nightmare court, and all manner of enemies all the time. I don’t see why the sylvari, outside the Grove especially, should always seek the peaceful option first? Just looking at the dialogue of sylvari npcs heavily suggests that it’s not mechanics that make them act like you don’t like. They’re an emotional and very very impulsive lot. They are different from humans, as different as asura are to humans, as different as norn are to humans. They have their own culture and ways of thinking, even if it all does come out as humanish, just like for the other races.

Really sylvari don’t have much of a chance to have a more unique way of life, especially with the whole “we’re here to kill those dragons” thing. They’re a new, learning intelligent species in a very dangerous world. Who do they have to learn from? Humans, asura, charr, and norn. Ventari’s tablet is a big influence for them but they can’t avoid being influenced by the other races and their ways of life, especially with the dream including non-sylvari. They don’t have a long history to root their way of life.

Personally I think violence as a last resort from a close-to-nature species has been done to death anyways.

Ba air.1372:

Personally I think violence as a last resort from a close-to-nature species has been done to death anyways.

And it only really makes sense if the race is ancient and self proclaimed stuwards of nature rather than being part of nature as the sylvari do believe.

A way of thinking about it that might help get across what I mean is to consider sylvari not as high fantasy elves + plants. They have a good bit in common with the generic elf but also a heavy influence from the fae/fairies/the good people/whatever you want to call them. This is pretty obvious with the Nightmare Court being the Unseelie Court with a tacked on note of: “Oh yeah and let’s take over the world too.” (Look it up if you don’t believe me, the two line up pretty nicely.)

Fairy myth have fairies, no not those Disney fairies, tied to nature and can be quite peaceful and helpful, but by no means are they always like that. Many, even outside the Unseelie Court can be quite nasty. Just food for thought.

Ventari the centaur did not mean that you should not prevent a plague of bugs or cut down trees for wood when he wrote that all things have a right to grow. It is more of a verse that states that all sentients are equal. Neither Centaur nor Ogre is better than the other. It is just worded a little more plant like.

if you want to send the grubs to the nightmare court that most likely will corrupt them and take control of them and then send them back to hurt you is a very good ide(holds sarcasem sign in hands)

if you want sylvari to follow the natures rules ok then they are doing a great job as the first and only rule of nature is survival of the fittest and that is also the only rule

its the same rule that made any of this possible as the human race(looking at real life now) is also comming from nature and forced it to the knees because we by far is the fittest and strongest race it has ever made walk this earth

if you want them to follow the teachings of Ventari then you should already see now that they can be understood in a lot of ways meaning that the sylvari is doing what they think is best for them and the area they are in, killing a huge amount of fireflyes can be needed to be done if sylvari also are taking out some of there predators else there would come an overflow of fireflyes or any other spices as there is less to fall to the predator the sylvari is now hunting so to prevent that the sylvari is killing the fireflyes instead and useing what they can from them so they are not wasted

To touch on what Korsbaek said; sylvari eat meat. That means they aren’t above accepting natures bounty in it’s multiple forms. from planting tree houses to hunting food to harvesting bioluminescence.

Besides, how else can we make all the pretty lights in the Grove? Fire is bad.