Guild Wars 2

I hadn’t tried a sylvari personal story before, so I recently began one. Before this, my impression of the sylvari was that they were typically wide-eyed and excitable, good by nature (thanks to their guiding principles set down on a tablet by centaur Moses and delivered on high to their birthing tree), but otherwise reserved and above all, curious. This seemed completely in line for a race that was so young and new to the world. Most of my impressions were formed by being in their city, the one tortured soul in Destiny’s Edge, seeing a few around the world, and that was about it. (Trahearne doesn’t count to me because he is written far more like a human than a sylvari. His race is an afterthought, as opposed to part of his identity.) Because of all this, the Nightmare Court, with their completely cartoonish levels of over-the-top “bad guy” acting and emoting seemed even more ridiculous than any other of the “evil twin” race enemies.

What I’ve learned since doing most of “Act 1” of a sylvari personal story is that sylvari are actually rash, unforgiving, and cruel – and those are the ones still connected to the dream! What I took for youthful idealism is actually much darker: more of an infantile selfishness. In this light, the Nightmare Court – even with their hilarious and wild overacting – seem much more like actual counterparts to the already drama-stricken sylvari. It’s honestly a good thing centaur Moses came along and delivered his less-than-ten commandments, because otherwise I have to assume the entire race would be borderline evil.

Listening to sylvari in the world, however, you still don’t really get any of this. And so the disconnect is still there. I can’t tell if this is just really bad writing on the part of the personal story, or if there was just a complete disconnect between the personal story writing team and the “world” writing team (acknowledged by Anet to be different teams).

Do some of the more experienced sylvari lore masters have a better view? (For what it’s worth, I’ve not completed the story mode of the main sylvari dungeon, so I don’t know how the callous Caithe’s story turns out.)

I’ve got 2 Sylvari characters and I can’t recall any of the “selfishness” you’re referring to. Perhaps because its been quite a while since I created them and played their personal storylines through that point. Care to elaborate a bit?

My personal story choices were “white stag” and “all things have a right to grow.” Given that nearly all I previously knew about Caithe was that she spearheaded the desire to get the “gang” back together, in all the interactions I had she seemed kind-hearted and nurturing. I was pretty shocked in “white stag” when she murdered a defeated prisoner even after having beaten them to coerce their help. My character all but begged her to let them go - especially after having given word that they would - but she just up and murdered them. Later, she stood by while my character fought a duel to the death (one I didn't want to end in death and I was also frustrated there was no choice in this). I’m sure her story gets brighter from there, and her dungeon probably helps develop her much further, but it’s a dark, dark place to start. (I’ve since learned that the dungeon is “set” before the beginning of Act 2, story-wise, so I’m guessing she undergoes some major changes that turn her around. Seeing it in reverse was just shocking because I didn’t know how far she’d gone.)

In “right to grow,” the twins are insufferable not just because of the writing, but because they approach the world like 6 year olds. Maybe it’s actually good writing – maybe they are actually 6 – but this is the strongest example of “youthful” being usurped by “childlike” in a negative connotation. They are the best examples so far of how the more cartoonish traits of the Nightmare Court seem justifiable. Similarly, Caithe’s example (since I sort of know the general outline of her story) is one of pure selfishness.

There are plenty examples of the standard Sylvari traits in the open world and in Sylvari storylines—ambient dialogue, characters that embody it, conversations you can have as either a Sylvari or other races. But they’re not the only thing that the Sylvari are about, and all of those traits have negative sides to them as well. You can be youthful, but immature. You can be idealistic and honorable, but naive and deluded about how the world works. You can be eager but brash, curious but tactless and obnoxious. And this is displayed just as often, because they’re still individual people who think and feel and experience different things.

And Caithe and Trahearne are firstborn—they’re much older, more well-traveled, so they stand out beyond their race because they will do things that are more pragmatic, things that might contradict the tablet, or are more reserved because they’d had their hands burned a few times.

Also Caithe’s actions against the Courtier are harsh, but they are a member of a fanatic organization that uses torture, abuse, manipulation, lies, and murder to further their cause. You didn’t just promise them their life, you promised to let them walk free, in which they could continue hurting other people. Caithe just recognized how stupid that was and dealt with the problem swiftly. Honor vs. pragmatism.

I loved the twins, personally. My favourite story arc regardless of race

I do agree a bit about Caithe. I was fine with her being a little hard of heart after all that’s gone on in her past with Faolain, but the ability of the PC to soften her to a less brutal outlook (or encourage it, with the branching storyline possibilities) would have been nice. Instead, as you said, there’s little real opportunity to object to her merciless decisions. What character development does occur with her seems to happen mainly through the story dungeons, and not often as a result of any PC action. It’s point blank hard for the PC to have any impact on characters like Caithe because we are constantly positioned as subordinate to the likes of Destiny’s Edge, Trahearne, Order officers, etc. right up to the final showdown with Zhaitan. Always the educated, never the educator or even the peer :P Bit of a missed opportunity, methinks.

Do you know that Courtiers are entirely irredeemable? What Caithe did may not have been nice, but it was pragmatic and justified. “Heroes” who let violent criminals walk free to abduct, torture, mutilate, pervert and murder some more are terrible because they care more about their own superficial “purity” than about the suffering of others, for which they become indirectly responsible. And that’s “normal” criminals who technically have a choice to change. Courtiers don’t have that.

Faowri.4159:

It’s point blank hard for the PC to have any impact on characters like Caithe because we are constantly positioned as subordinate to the likes of Destiny’s Edge, Trahearne, Order officers, etc. right up to the final showdown with Zhaitan. Always the educated, never the educator or even the peer :P Bit of a missed opportunity, methinks.

Yeah, treating the player character as ignorant is sadly par on course for computer games. It’s a neverending source of frustration and immersion-breaking, especially when contrasted by how the same NPCs who need to explain 2+2=4 to us nonetheless believe we are The Chosen One™ who will Save The World™.

It’s a result of equating player knowledge with character knowledge — or lack of knowledge, in these cases.

This game makes some attempts of letting us influence the NPCs, but it really falls short. Spoiler for Twilight Arbor:

The colder thing that Caithe does is she writes Tiachren off to Nightmare. The PC can choose to try to save him or not, but she just willingly lets him fall. That is a really strong violation of ‘Never let a wrong ripen into evil.’

There are more subtle Courtiers in the lore, but only Gavin is notably nice. Though Ysvelta is, too, until she’s crossed.

Chadramar.8156:

Do you know that Courtiers are entirely irredeemable?

One person’s “irredeemable” is another person’s “waiting on the right plot line.” One of the best stories I’ve ever read started with the question: can an irredeemably evil creature choose to be good?

Chadramar.8156:

What Caithe did may not have been nice, but it was pragmatic and justified. “Heroes” who let violent criminals walk free to abduct, torture, mutilate, pervert and murder some more are terrible because they care more about their own superficial “purity” than about the suffering of others, for which they become indirectly responsible…

I believe you and I have different outlooks on life.

The “irredeemable” bit is not just a plotline waiting to happen, it’s canon. Sure they could change that, but if a setting has no basis beyond a writer’s momentary whim, it isn’t worth much.

The fact that you can’t save a Courtier is a huge part of what makes the Nightmare Court so horrible, IMO. That bunch is worse than the Elder Dragons in a way, because Glint’s example shows that there is a way to break a dragon minion free, even if the method may be forgotten. Courtiers are gone for good. Caithe knows that better than anyone, and I wouldn’t be surprised if her anguish over Faolain plays a part in her ruthlessness against Faolain’s minions.

Sylv.5324:

The colder thing that Caithe does is she writes Tiachren off to Nightmare. The PC can choose to try to save him or not, but she just willingly lets him fall. That is a really strong violation of ‘Never let a wrong ripen into evil.’

There are more subtle Courtiers in the lore, but only Gavin is notably nice. Though Ysvelta is, too, until she’s crossed.

I liked Gavin, he’s the only nightmare court that I sort of sympathized with, because he was reasonable; and honorable, he was told to stab me from behind and he stuck to his morals. I guess anet didn’t want to paint the nightmare court in the light that they’re completely reasonable people with a different mindset and instead just wanted to make them generic bad guys.

As Caithe said about the difference between Gavin and the crazy chaotic one, “Evil comes in many forms”.

I’m just saying, if more of the nightmare court were like Gavin and not completely insane/trying to kill everything on sight, I might be a little more inclined to atleast hear them out.

Which makes Gavin the most dangerous of all. XP

Sylv.5324:

The colder thing that Caithe does is she writes Tiachren off to Nightmare.

I think that Faolain thing affected her deeply.

Dustfinger.9510:

As Caithe said about the difference between Gavin and the crazy chaotic one, “Evil comes in many forms”.

This. If anything, Gavin is a more sinister kind of evil because he’s able to conjure just enough to pass himself off as empathetic.

CETheLucid.3964:

If anything, Gavin is a more sinister kind of evil because he’s able to conjure just enough to pass himself off as empathetic.

Exactly. Like Anton Chigurh in No Country For Old Men , Gavin has a code of honor but we see how sociopathic he really is when he finds out you want the stag.

Really? I don’t think I see this selfishness. Do you have some examples?

I actually like the Nightmare Court. I get sick of three dimensional bad guys, as weird as that sounds. I don’t find it very realistic. In the real world there are many people who have motivations as simple as murder people so I can get off on it, or manipulate others because it’s fun and I like to see how much I can get away with. You’re more likely to find a psychopath Nightmare Court style in the real world than you are a Hannibal Lecter.

Something people miss with the Nightmare Court also is that you can’t take them at the strength of their ideas. No matter how great someone’s ideas are if they’re torturing people to get them to accept those ideas everything becomes wrong.

HumaCarrionEater.8254:

Really? I don’t think I see this selfishness. Do you have some examples?

I actually like the Nightmare Court. I get sick of three dimensional bad guys, as weird as that sounds. I don’t find it very realistic. In the real world there are many people who have motivations as simple as murder people so I can get off on it, or manipulate others because it’s fun and I like to see how much I can get away with. You’re more likely to find a psychopath Nightmare Court style in the real world than you are a Hannibal Lecter.

Something people miss with the Nightmare Court also is that you can’t take them at the strength of their ideas. No matter how great someone’s ideas are if they’re torturing people to get them to accept those ideas everything becomes wrong.

Torturing people has the benefit of being something the torturer can get off on, forcing the victim to accept their idea, and being an antagonistic element.

That’s pretty three dimensional to me.

You just seem to have a natural aversion to torture as a means. Most people do. But factually, it’s very effective.

Psychopaths will differ with you, and force you to say and do whatever they want of you if you want the pain to stop. You will submit or you will suffer.

The idea good or bad is irrelevant, if all you want is relief. Very few are those who can both suffer and die for their virtues. Many are sooner broken.

For such a one victory is death and suffering the reward, and what is worth that ultimately? How much do you value your beliefs?

Would you really suffer horribly and die a terrible death for them?

What is the value of peace? What is the value of relief? What is the value of comfort and even a mere moment of peace with no pain?

What would you do for these things given a trade between peace and comfort VS suffering and death for your beliefs?

Be careful how you answer.

“But factually, it’s very effective.”

Actually, it’s not. Torture has been studied rather extensively and the consensus is that it is not an effective means for extracting information. For breaking someone sure, but rebuilding them in to your own image becomes difficult if they’re just a suffering bag of bones and meat.

Psychopaths torture for gratification. I don’t see the point you’re trying to make there. That is not complex in the slightest. Psychopaths tend to be very shallow people without very complex motives, contrary to what fiction would have you believe.

Also your pseudo rp tone is strange. Because of it I have trouble sorting out what your actual points are.