Guild Wars 2

All i can say it WOW. I have been in the game and have read these forums since Day 1. I have smirked, laughed, said WTF so many times i can’t even count. I have found myself on the elitist’s side and the non-elitist’s side of many arguments. I have logged in excited to do my daily and also dreading to do my daily, just like days i love my job and days i hate my job, etc. This is the first post that has actually made me stop and actually reply.

And my reply is a resounding applause for what you call a rant. This is the first post I have seen ( while there may have been some that i did not see ) that actually took the time to level set their opinion.

Thank you Kaisharga.5647 for taking the time to try and create a common verbiage , common expectations of a team as well as common expectations of a teammate. While your ‘English’ may not have been the best, it is still head and shoulders above most forum posters whose first language IS English and have said more in this one post then those that have posted 1k+ times.

The sad thing is… as of the time of my post, there have been 96 views and no responses. I believe most people , when set upon with irrefutable logic , are left speechless. There is nothing in your ‘rant’ that can be made fun of, laughed at, or argued with.

Your post is what most forum posters neglect — level setting everyone on their opinion. Most people on these forums are very egocentric ( I also am not immune to this ). They believe their opinion is rule , discount other’s opinions , and don’t even take the time to explain even what they write, and half of the time they just contradict themselves 3 posts later.

My apologies for my own rant, though i meant to mainly applaud your efforts. Even if it does fall on deaf ears, I just wanted you to know that at least someone out there shared your opinion.

Thank you.

Good topic.

15 forum brownies.

Really good topics. Only idiots play this game “needing” certain classes for parties. I’d be kitten ed if I ever get kicked from a party for being an engineer. I have been in parties where people are so hesitant, and then realize “wow, other classes do kick butt”

I really don’t think we should trivialize the class issues too much. It’s obviously coming from somewhere and it’s not just people being kittens for the sake of being kittens. While I would personally never deny somebody a slot based on their class there is no denying that there needs to be some serious rebalancing.

I was kicked for being Engineer…

and I was the only one that was wearing dungeon armor with ascended gear, and wasn’t rocking lvl 50 pirate and goober armor gear like the rest of the would-be-party…

This was astronomically stupid on their part, and I consider a blessing to get out of that loser squad.

Quote: “LFG … no noob classes, and when I asked what noob classes were I got the response: Engineers, Rangers, Thieves.”

Had to grin about that one. Currently I mainly play engineer and warrior, and if there is a “noob” class it would be warrior – very easy and relaxing to play, whereas playing an engi decently takes a lot more effort. Similarly for ranger and thief – to play them well you need to put a bit more in.

Generally people with attitudes like that show their own utter lack of game knowledge and I am therefor happy they make it easy for me to avoid them.

Just want to clear one small thing up.

Noob is usually an insult to a “skilled” player, while Newb refers to a new player. When someone stands in fire or messes something up that upsets the team when they should know better, they are referred to as a Noob in an insulting manner. But when someone is new and you are teaching them how to do something, and they make mistakes based on first time experiences, they are referred to as a Newb for being new.

At least, that’s how it was back in my day of gaming. Don’t know if it has changed since then.

And thanks on the “OOC” part. I never knew that meant out of combat. All my times playing on RP servers, it always meant out of character. Was weird seeing people say that all the time in dungeons. Kept thinking they were roleplaying.

Kaisharga.5647:

Noob: A person who is new to the game or has fewer achievement points than you or just entered the dungeon for the first time or dies more than you.

You forgot to add to your dictionary :

Elitist : A person who has spent way too much time in the game or have more achievement points than you or just entered the dungeon once or die just as much as you, but for some reason it’s always because of someone’s else mistake.

I was unaware of just how bad the whole “everyone-but-this-class” thing was. I’ve only ever seen Warrior only groups, not ones that felt that there were “noob” classes.

Oh one thing you might wanna add that people tend to not know is LOS or LOS pulling.

The act of pulling mobs and using an obstacle (like a corner or a wall) to break the Line Of Sight so that ranged mobs will have to walk around the corner to hit you and be all nicely packed.

Nice thread though. Although I don’t agree with the definition of noob, newb would be more fitting there, its nice to see people putting effort to break the negative dungeon cycle.

SpyderArachnid.5619:

Just want to clear one small thing up.

Noob is usually an insult to a “skilled” player, while Newb refers to a new player. When someone stands in fire or messes something up that upsets the team when they should know better, they are referred to as a Noob in an insulting manner. But when someone is new and you are teaching them how to do something, and they make mistakes based on first time experiences, they are referred to as a Newb for being new.

At least, that’s how it was back in my day of gaming. Don’t know if it has changed since then.

And thanks on the “OOC” part. I never knew that meant out of combat. All my times playing on RP servers, it always meant out of character. Was weird seeing people say that all the time in dungeons. Kept thinking they were roleplaying.

Dear sir, you are correct. As a matter of fact I think there has been an Internet evolution of the newb —→ noob. Though I think it started as you stated above that, a newb or newbie is a person who is new to the game/activity, therefore unaware of many details that many regulars take for granted. Then there were some games that promoted competitive online interaction. With random teams or against other randoms 1v1. A player familiar with the mechanics/content of the game, having spent 100s of hours on trivial details of the activity, challenges others or is challenged against other players or similar, lower or equal ability and commitment. The result is a player who criticizes others based on performance compared to his own. So to the eyes of a committed antagonistic player you are a noob if you are of lower dedication/skill/knowledge to the game.

I have been fortunate to play many MMORPGs or MMOs in general, some of them more than others, always encountering players with the elitist attitude or very eager to criticize “noobs”. I’ve been a gamer and a dedicated one for 7 years in World of Warcraft, 2 years in Warhammer Online, 1 year Age of Conan, and several months to apiece in Rift, Star Wars:TOR, EvE online.

In all those games I have seen people like these, it’s not just the MMO gaming I think, it’s the internet anonymity shield wall. A very powerful wall, with a unique ability of creating a fallacy that if you are behind it you are all powerful, can do and say anything you want. And I think it’s a fallacy because the internet anonymity though important to promote freedom of speech and opinion over the web, it should be done so constructively, with valid arguments and goals.

Having dug so deep in this issue, we dig up the internet troll

Those rules apply to this person but only for personal goals and only for fun or destroying the fun of others. I will not analyze that, as there are rules for trolls in both forums and in game.

Last but not least, thank you all for your comments and criticism. Let’s make this great game even better with our community.

P.S. This discussion urged me to begin the creation of a MMO acronym/abbreviation list.

I’ve beaten TA with two rangers in my party and I was an engineer. Anyone who doesn’t want these classes in their group don’t know what they’re talking about.

I’ve finished 4 runs of the new path so far, and had groups with rangers and thieves in half of them. Not only were they prepared, but the runs were among the smoother I’ve had thus far. Haven’t been partied with an engi yet, but i would not exclude them. Knowing your class and contributing to the party/objectives is paramount for success, imho.

I agree, there used to be a well defined difference between using the words newb/noob. I find in most cases anymore, people just use noob, and use it as a relative term (i.e. you might be called a noob if you die most often in a party, regardless of your actual skill playing).

And just to add my two cents on the term “mob”:
As a guild wars (1) veteran, it used to refer to a group of enemies that were well grouped together (i.e. aggro 1, the entire “mob” comes; think about a “mob mentality”, it refers to a group, not a single individual). Having said that, it seems as though the usage has evolved into refering to any number of enemies/hostiles, which people also use to refer to a single target at times (which is becoming more common).

TL;DR:
-Be prepared to contribute to the party, being comfortable with your class/role for success.
-Noob can be a relative term.
-Mob is often 1 enemy, mobs (plural) is a group, in most usage.

The negative attitude is for a big part due to casualization. People demand instant succes nowadays and if they dont get it, they will ragequit (and make angry posts on the forums). So yes i would like to see something like:

“Be prepared to wipe a few times. Wiping is a key component of learning certain challenging encounters.

Realize that this is a learning experience that is doable for everyone. As long as you are able to reflect on your own mistakes and willing to put enough effort in to it to make this path your own."

There are guys in this thread who made posts (in other threads) asking for Anet to replace this path completely or fire the devs responsible for it. Followed up by a post complimenting this thread.

I didn’t demand instant success, which is why I gave 3 attempts to this path, and only gave up after too many consecutive losses and too many others just leaving/ragequitting.

I complimented this thread because I agree with a good amount of the opening post, nothing more.

A learning experience doable for everyone? I think you’re referring to the Molten Facility. A pity that one is coming back in Fractals of the Mists.

Nilkemia.8507:

I didn’t demand instant success, which is why I gave 3 attempts to this path, and only gave up after too many consecutive losses and too many others just leaving/ragequitting.

I complimented this thread because I agree with a good amount of the opening post, nothing more.

A learning experience doable for everyone? I think you’re referring to the Molten Facility. A pity that one is coming back in Fractals of the Mists.

- I did it with my 6th group. As i told you before i just kept queueing untill i found some guys who where nice and patient enough. Added them to my friendslist, made a group with them and completed it shortly after.

So i guess you think you are a lot better than i am, since you expected to do it a lot faster? I know im quite casual, but there is no need to act like an elitist like that.

- You agree with a thread that discusses proper morals and values within a dungeon setting. Yet you come to the come to the forums after ragequitting a dungeon and write a post demanding the dungeon to be changed or the devs to be fired.

- If it really was purely for the hardcore crowd, only fully optimized groups who have everyone on voiceip would do it. Like you saw in the vod i posted for you in your other thread.

Its funny how you talk about woodenpotatoes in your own thread and how his video only describes the lore. There where a few statements he made that describe the difficulty and what he thinks about it (starts at 3.28 in):

I’ve experienced failure on the endboss about 1 run in 4, and that’s been from people giving up/not learning. Each fail had multiple people eating gears within 15 seconds.

Every other time, featuring people with the ability to learn from their mistakes, has ended in success. Eventually.

I’m happy to suffer on the way to a win when I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. If the people tie themselves to the traintracks before we even pull, not so much.

Locuz.2651:

So i guess you think you are a lot better than i am, since you expected to do it a lot faster? I know im quite casual, but there is no need to act like an elitist like that.

I don’t recall ever typing once that I was better, or thought I was better, than anyone else on these forums. Ever. Feel free to find a post where I said that, and I’ll correct my mistake.

- You agree with a thread that discusses proper morals and values within a dungeon setting. Yet you come to the come to the forums after ragequitting a dungeon and write a post demanding the dungeon to be changed or the devs to be fired.

And those contradict each other how exactly? There’s no connection here.

I like the opening post because they point out certain terms people use quite a bit here, as well as pointing out that people shouldn’t be judged solely by their class, but by their skill and how well they work with the others in a dungeon.

Nice to see you completely ignored that I tried more than once, tried different things, had some measure of perseverance and only gave up after most of the others did anyway. And I didn’t demand the dungeon change/firing, I said it should happen. But I already know it won’t, so no point demanding. Quit twisting my words.

Its funny how you talk about woodenpotatoes in your own thread and how his video only describes the lore. There where a few statements he made that describe the difficulty and what he thinks about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cySyHANB2xo

Starts at 3.28. (for some reason the forum doesnt want to include my time added to it.)

That doesn’t even have anything to do with this thread at all. Are you just trolling now? (In before this gets infracted and removed by a bot moderator for questioning that.)

Nilkemia.8507:

I don’t recall ever typing once that I was better, or thought I was better, than anyone else on these forums. Ever. Feel free to find a post where I said that, and I’ll correct my mistake.

Well you expect to be able to run through this dungeon during your first 2-3 pug runs. Like i said…it wasnt untill my 6th run that i made it. So why should you be able to do it faster than me?

Nilkemia.8507:

And those contradict each other how exactly? There’s no connection here.

I like the opening post because they point out certain terms people use quite a bit here, as well as pointing out that people shouldn’t be judged solely by their class, but by their skill and how well they work with the others in a dungeon.

The main message is to be patient and treat everyone respectfull within your dungeon. Its fine that you like that, but youre a ragequiter yourself. The direct opposite of what this thread discribes.

Nilkemia.8507:

[And I didn’t demand the dungeon change/firing, I said it should happen. But I already know it won’t, so no point demanding. Quit twisting my words.

You stated they should change the dungeon or get fired. Adding should to that sentence doesnt make it any less offensive and absurd tbh.

Played thief in this dungeon.
Kited.
Pulled.
Reflected.
Blinded lava guys.
Solo’d Spur and half of mossy.

My teammates? Three wars and a guardian.

“pro classes” are actually “Forgiving classes” in GW2. The War/Guard/Mes trinity is preferred for dungeons because of their largely passive and faceroll PvE playstyle. They’re very easy classes to play in PvE and do extremely well because of that easy of use, which makes people prefer them for PUGs.

That said I do most of my dungeon runs with a guild group consisting of 2x rangers, a thief, a necro, and one warrior and we’ve never had any problems clearing stuff. In some instances we’ve found that certain class synergies (like the constant spam of deathblossom in the necro’s dark fields) make up for or even exceed the passive benefits from classes we lack.

I’d say use the LFG for pugs, and just ignore groups with silly requests like “need 1 heavy” or “all heavies”

I can personally attest to having run multiple groups of all sorts of GW2 dungeons without any of the “big 3” classes. In GW2 what’s important is understanding your character and the abilities of your teammates. If that’s in the bag then you’re good to go, you can finish any dungeon (except possibly Arah 4, if it’s still completely unfinishable by anyone)

Funny enough, two of those “noob classes” I know are strong in TA. I have Guardian, Engineer and Thief in berserker armors. Turns out Engineer and Thief can do same, if not more damage and can stay alive better than Guardian..

Thanks for your thoughts, OP. The bottom line is use good manners and treat others as you would want to be treated, do NOt treat them like you would if you were the main character in a sitcom.

This notion that some professions are better or worst has not gone unnoticed by the community. Its clearly an issue that needs to be looked at and fixed. Especially if anet is moving towards more difficult, and time consuming, PvE content that would make the temptation to ignore the “risky” professions all the greater.

Personally, i dont pug. Ever.

Did this last night with:
Me – Guard
Guildie No.1 – Thief
Guildie No.2 – Engineer
PuG#1 – Thief
PuG#2 – Guard.

Guard is overpowered in this dungeon, but the difference between me and the other guard was, I went down twice, he died about 20 times. Same with the thieves, my guildie is my dungeoneering guru, I have watched him solo half a dozen bosses after party (of every other class) wipes. He was AMAZINGLY resilient and outpacing our damage by quite a bit, but the other thief didn’t seem to pack any condition removal, and stayed in shortbow at range for many encounters.

Learn your class, watch videos on general dungeon encounters, for instance, if you are using LoS (Line of Sight) with your team, and you are on thief, which weapon should you main hand? Sword Cleaves which means that if you are stacked on a group of MoBs you hit more than 1 at a time, and with a skill like Pistol Whip (Sw/P #3) you interrupt/daze multiple targets. Would be very useful for taskmasters, eh? Also, your #5 skill is a pulsing smoke field which blinds 5 enemies a second when they stand in it. Incredibly useful for LoS pulls.

In short, as it has been stated, it isn’t about the professions, it about the players. And many players mistake OP professions with generally better players. This is not the case.

Better players > OP professions any day.

Communication and ability to understand the encounters is KEY to any PuG you run. And if you encounter someone who is playing your profession more successfully, ask them some questions about what you should be doing, and where to find more information.

Thanks very much for this post, OP. It made my afternoon.

Kaisharga.5647:

Hello everyone. My name is Arijani from the Desolation server. What I intend to do, with all-goodness-in heart is try to utilize my poor English for the sake letting people know how to handle random players into their assault in Twilight Arbor. I was driven to do so from numerous posts I read and personal experiences in PUGs.

…

Hello Arijani,

I’ll gladly take your poor engineer to my party anytime, instead of those random pug warriors/guardians, that just ruin my gameplay all the time.

Nythy.

I’m the dungeon officer in my guild and I never specialize in classes. I tell everyone who parties with me and they ask what they should bring, I tell them, “What ever class you are most comfortable with.”

I personally prefer experienced over lvl, gear, or “needed” classes. I’ve done dungeon runs with 5 thieves with great success, a party with all min lvl needed characters (i.e. lvl 54-55 in TA exp), and I’ve done runs with all lvl 80’s geared groups…ironically enough the lvl 80’s wipe more often.

Experience rules. If you can play the kitten out of your class and you understand the dungeon…you’re first pick in my book

Every single class is fine in dungeons except necromancer which contributes basically nothing.

An ideal composition would be something like 1 warrior, 1 engineer, 1 ranger, 2 elementalists. Maybe swap the second ele for a guardian since reflects (if required), aegis and protection means you can stay in a fight longer increasing your DPS uptime as you don’t have to dodge.

Warrior gives banners, engineer stacks vuln, ranger has frost spirit and spotter, elementalists offer lightning hammers and fiery greatswords plus fire fields, and I think every class I listed has at least one blast finisher.

People normally like stacking warriors because it’s easy, not because it’s legitmately the best DPS, and if they think that they’re misguided.

The only profession combination i cannot accept in a team is “2 staff necros”.
1 staff necro is fine. 2 is not.
Refuse to have 2 staff necros on the team, one of them must re-roll.

Think of everyone in team running condition builds that completely overlap each other…a complete nightmare. Feels like a team with almost 0 dps waiting for conditions to tick on the boss one second at a time, and the ticking is very weak too…a 10 mins dungeon becomes 50 mins.

Conditions should be uncapped for PvE, or capped at 25 stacks per player. Each player’s poison/burning should tick separately on the boss too, instead of waiting for someone’s poison to finish ticking for yours to start.