Guild Wars 2

The problems with the new WvW map from the perspective of me, Lootballs from [Ash] (A ‘hardcore’ WvW guild on EU) with input from [Ash] and [VcY]. Sorry for the perspective changes throughout (I/our). We watched this primarily through Chemsorly’s PoV so bare in mind we only really saw the green colours PoV on buffs.

Some terminology:

FP = Focus Party, meaning Rangers, Thieves and Mesmers and Engineers typically.

Fair Fights – Not meaning equal numbers, but more both sides are on relatively equal footing.

Utility Buff/Debuff – Like Stealth/Reveal that can’t be boon stripped.

When structuring a reply please quote a number to allow easy discussion

My/Our concerns with the map (In no particular order):

1. The ‘jungle section’ is designed around karma training from the way I see it, with no possibility for fights due to the tight nature of the road. [Screenshot] To fix this I propose either a widening of the paths to about 2.5x their current size so you had more side to side movement and had the ability to move out of AoE. Without this the whole thing becomes a massive choke if there is a fight, making FP players useless due to their lack of non-projectile based AoE and low armor rating. When you widen the paths it allows for more horizontal movement so AoE becomes less efficient – as it stands it would be whichever group pushes dies. This then means that the “pirate ship meta” is more prominent. It is important thought that the sides of the bridges remain, to stop CC becoming too strong. This isn’t the only section that could use widening – the area from the trailer with stairs up [Screenshot] could either use a fence/wall along the side or a wider path.

2. The shrine buffs (the ones that trigger on interaction) are bad in our opinion. The problem with ±stat buffs is that it affects bigger groups more than smaller ones. Changing these buffs to only affect NPCs (±10% damage to/from guards) or to siege (±10% damage to/from siege) would be a big step for allowing fair fights. WvW is not about perfect balance, but a guild group should have a chance against a large public group without the larger group steamrolling with massive damage. We would prefer a rework that moves the shrines away from stat bonuses (such as damage) to either supply capacity or magic find/karma/PPT gain (or points per stomp). Personally another buff I would like to see added to them is “Sure footed”, which much like PvE mobs prevents you from being knocked off a cliff. You could also allow the shrines to allow wall/gate regeneration (a passive buff to all walls/gates that gives them small amounts of regen (1% per minute-ish seems about right, maybe have it scale with the number of shrines) which means that the “mega-lazer” has a auto balance and counterplay (since it’s every 3 hours).

3. Remove a large chunk of the ‘random mobs’ as we dubbed them. (I mean they are even in the spawns, where players are invulnerable [Screenshot]) This is Griffons and so on that are around the map for ‘scenery’. The problem with this is in open field fights players can use them to rally. From our point of view this is a bad thing, due to trying to get ‘fair fights’ with guilds then you include ‘random rallying’. The way to fix this is removing a large portion of them, which might not be ideal, or increasing the time they take to respawn to ~5 minutes. There is a large portion of chokes/open field areas smothered in these annoying pointless NPCs (Giant Beetle) that need adjustment. Canyon spiders should also not have immobilize (along with anything else with immob/hard CC). It’s a bad design choice in our opinion to make the random mobs a threat in a PvP zone. Eternal Necropolis is an acceptable level of ‘random mobs’.

4. A large portion of the space is ‘wasted’. The northern corners will be uninvited mostly, due to a lack of objective in them. A solution to this is to just remove them, slightly shrink the maps in the corners, or to make them relevant – akin to what the quaggans used to do or something similar (Like an objective that adds an extra NPC to each dolyak on your team). These spots aren’t really an issue though, I would prefer them to stay then them to be filled with “useless PvE junk”. If you can’t find a legitimate purpose for it, leave it as is. A map big for the sake of being big is just bad.

5. The ‘asuran turrets’ that AoE pulse cripple [Screenshot] should be changed to give a utility debuff (not a boon/condition) that grants -25% speed. This is because fights here mean that condi-clear becomes unreliable and makes them impossible. By making it a utility debuff that is only active within their radius. You still make condition clear relevant and reliable when fighting there and it becomes easier to play with without changing its functionality. It’s a small change that would aid in quality of life.

6. The maps structure promotes rush attacks more than defending. Due to the large open structure of the map it promotes slow defending (it takes a while to get to the objectives with no ‘shortcuts’). The overall pathing of the map allows you to dodge players easily (and fights), which isn’t a good move. You can fix this by including a more streamlined route through the map (like the current borderlands have) where you can clearly see routes around the map. This may be a non-problem because it is the first look at the map, but it still a point we noticed (a lack of orange sword). With the increase in offensive power (Shield Generator can block Arrow Cart fire and supply is a non-issue) defending needs a power increase (note: CC turrets to knock you off bridges are not really a good way of addressing this). The lava teleport tunnels are a good example of this, by allowing defenders to move quickly to defend and the idea of counterplay around them is strong, but I would change them to be active at 2/3 and not 3/3 in my opinion.

7. 4/5 minute “PPT timer” is good (seems to be 4 minutes with about a 1 minute reset period), but I think 7:30 total is more appropriate if the Lord Buff doesn’t change – since the 5 minute buff will overflow with a 4 minute timer. We like that the time is reduced, but 4/5 minutes is too low with the 5 minute guard buff (there are obvious problems with this).

8. The map needs looking over for exploits. If you want I can do it for you, but the fact Chemsorly found an exploit easily shows that there must be a few.

9. Transforms are a love hate relationship. We don’t mind the idea of them, but we want to see them properly balanced. Siege Devours in EotM are too strong for example, Kodan more balanced. We think that the new transforms need a balance (nerf) before the release.

10. The siege appearance change is a step backwards in design. Current siege is floating asuran powered mecha-goodness which has devolved back to wooden junk. Technology going backwards is not a good idea. It is good that it looks different, but a step-backwards in tech for it is not the way. (A reversal of the two looks [Normal and Superior] would be acceptable). Superior Treb can stay though, that thing is beast.

11. The rock walls at the earth keep aren’t a bad choice, but I would (add) a telegraph them much more. Red/White AoE rings for partial warning for example. The entire rock wall setup also changes that entire area against the theme of openfield fair fights – since it’s no longer open field (same problems as point 1). It might be better to change them to “Stony ground” or “Quicksand” giving a movement speed debuff akin to point 5.

12. Sentries could be reimplemented with additional functionality, such as spotting enemy players that run past (even after the guard dies). It would allow for fights to be easier to find and “less dodging” of fights.

A few final thoughts/sarcastic comments:

Mystic forge has no merchant!

Paraphrasing ‘we will not add new races because it cost our developer team a lot for little gain’. Then they go through and design all the Tengu animations for this map. Really? /s

(tl;dr)
A quick summary of changes we would like:

Remove the spots where small AoE (Lava Font) can fill the entire area (Point 1). It should be about the width of 2 Lava Fonts (720ish) at minimum.

Remove stat advantages from shrine buffs, since this favors groups unfairly.

Removal of most of the ‘trash mobs’ and increase their respawn cooldown.

Change permanent map controlled features (asuran turrets) to be utility debuffs so condition clear is relevant in fights around them and make them have telegraphs.

Streamline the map so fights occur more (Sentries showing enemies on maps, addition of more ‘shortcut spots’ to aid defenders and clear pathing are all ways of doing this).

Add walls on the edge of fatal drops if the drop is a kill drop and the area is designed for large amounts of footfall. (See point 1’s final screenshot for 1 such spot).

Credit and thanks too Lootballs for going through the effort of writing this up. Muchas Love.

For the Reddit Thread which has the picture links and PoV we watched from go to this link:

https://m.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3cqm3l/wvw_map_thoughts_from_a_eu_guilded_perspective/

All constructive criticism is accepted and any additional ideas are also welcomed. Thought I’d add this for those not on reddit as much.

Thanks for the copy-pasta, was about to do it myself. Current feed back from reddit seems like most of these ideas are supported, with the exception of the removal of trash mobs; with people preferring the increased respawn time as the solution.

AllIsVain.6409:

Thanks for the copy-pasta, was about to do it myself. Current feed back from reddit seems like most of these ideas are supported, with the exception of the removal of trash mobs; with people preferring the increased respawn time as the solution.

Trash mobs are fine to an extent.. but that giant beetle though..

yea Think it will be more Guild Size, wich I do like tbh…

I really DONT LIKE the PvE elements however, to much from EotM into Borders is really not what I want. Ok there will be no CHamp/Karma farm in the Border I know that still I dont like the Oasis,Balthazar Dogs, Earth-Walls or Gusts of Wind cannons.

Imho leave WvW to WvW-players and leave the PvE out of the Map, remove mobs and aswell on the open Areas. I wanna fight players and other Guilds not hit Dinosaurs, Lizards,Skritt aso…

I see huge potential and less Zerging but I also see elements that really scares me.

DonEllz.6312:

AllIsVain.6409:

Thanks for the copy-pasta, was about to do it myself. Current feed back from reddit seems like most of these ideas are supported, with the exception of the removal of trash mobs; with people preferring the increased respawn time as the solution.

Trash mobs are fine to an extent.. but that giant beetle though..

I dont think they are fine, there should be less imo not more than the current.
why not make them neutral? if I want to kill trash mobs there is plenty of room in pve:/

[edit] stupid dog tranformations, terrible, just terrible. leave these things in pve [/edit]

i’m fine with a couple yellow mobs here and there but there were too many on this map though. I was running dps gear and a single imp in the north section hit me for 75 of my health…not sure if working as intended or what lol.

I’ll second what Rave said, too much EotM gimmicks is bad bad bad. I mean look at the current borderlands maps compared to this one and EotM….they are just towers, siege, and players (for the most part). It’s just raw large scale pvp. Pretty much anything that can instantly swing a battle is bad design in my opinion (i’m looking at you auto cannons in EotM, wind turrets in beta map). Let players win their fights with their skills instead of some lucky cheap shot.

Man I hate trash mobs. Makes me want to log out sometimes. I can’t believe there are people who like them.

Most people complain that there is too much PvE in WvW currently.

ANet’s response, new WvW maps with even more PvE.

Doesn’t make any sense.

If they want mobs for scenery they should just make them all ambients while keeping the character models the same it’s a win-win. Also on that note for us poor necros, I wanted to ask are there sufficient amounts of ambients along the road in the new map (for building life force) of the same density as the alpine border map?

Chobits.2430:

Most people complain that there is too much PvE in WvW currently.

ANet’s response, new WvW maps with even more PvE.

Doesn’t make any sense.

Whats less PVE? No mobs? Should also remove siege then? And delete all the objectives as those are Environment too, right?

So we just need a 80v80v80 blobfest on a flat terrain?

WvW is always about objectives and creating a ‘sandbox’ for everyone to enjoy. Be it roamers, havoc groups and blobs.

butch.8136:

Chobits.2430:

Most people complain that there is too much PvE in WvW currently.

ANet’s response, new WvW maps with even more PvE.

Doesn’t make any sense.

Whats less PVE? No mobs? Should also remove siege then? And delete all the objectives as those are Environment too, right?

So we just need a 80v80v80 blobfest on a flat terrain?

WvW is always about objectives and creating a ‘sandbox’ for everyone to enjoy. Be it roamers, havoc groups and blobs.

No, varying terrain (like that is shown to be done well in the new map) is exactly what the for fights community want them to spend almost all their time on. What no pve means is the environment artificially interfering with fair fights. For example like I suggested making all mobs keep their character models but making them ambients. Also while the idea behind crippling large zergs so slow their movement around the map is nice on paper, if this occurs on large parts on the map it could interfere with small scale fights, being perma crippled in a 1v1 is a death sentence. Other examples are the automated cannons in eotm making absolutely huge areas of the map a no go zone for solo roamers and even when the cannons are mine I don’t like having the huge advantage in my fights. Hopefully you’re starting to understand what I’m getting at.

Zetsumei.4975:

butch.8136:

Chobits.2430:

Most people complain that there is too much PvE in WvW currently.

ANet’s response, new WvW maps with even more PvE.

Doesn’t make any sense.

Whats less PVE? No mobs? Should also remove siege then? And delete all the objectives as those are Environment too, right?

So we just need a 80v80v80 blobfest on a flat terrain?

WvW is always about objectives and creating a ‘sandbox’ for everyone to enjoy. Be it roamers, havoc groups and blobs.

No, varying terrain (like that is shown to be done well in the new map) is exactly what the for fights community want them to spend almost all their time on. What no pve means is the environment artificially interfering with fair fights. For example like I suggested making all mobs keep their character models but making them ambients. Also while the idea behind crippling large zergs so slow their movement around the map is nice on paper, if this occurs on large parts on the map it could interfere with small scale fights, being perma crippled in a 1v1 is a death sentence. Other examples are the automated cannons in eotm making absolutely huge areas of the map a no go zone for solo roamers and even when the cannons are mine I don’t like having the huge advantage in my fights. Hopefully you’re starting to understand what I’m getting at.

I understand.
But WvW isn’t fair in its very nature.

I like the idea of having the random mobs populate only certain areas, like the Oasis. The strategy here would be choosing areas for your advantage, such as if you think you’ll benefit from rallying off mobs more than your enemy, choose a populated area.