Guild Wars 2

@Mesket you are absolutely right there but what i have to disagree on is that legendaries require an insane amount of farming and gathering and or playing the market. But playing it is the fastest way to get money. It will always be.
If you are a game designer you can choose the richest players to be either excessive grinders, buisness men or the most skilled players (which would be a pvp only game ^^ ).

Why legendaries are as expensive and as troublesome to get as they are was purposely chosen by Anet. They wanted it to be a kittening annoying endless task which takes you years. The average players at least. Look at me i started after the karka event and i still miss gift of might gift of magic 250 globes and 85 charged LS…

I’m not complaining though. I knew it would take me really long. I thought i could do it in under a year but i’m not too sure about that either xD
Just do your dailys play the game gather some gold and do the things that you like most^^ Even if it takes you 2 years you’ll get it eventually

There currently is no other option then making an AION, an EvE or a FPS :P (it’s a little exaggerated on purpose). But thinking of these design options i have the feeling that GW2, although it is more the 2nd type, isn’t doing too bad.

Ohoni.6057:

“Looking pretty with a sword” is not gameplay. No content/gameplay is denied from them. Which is why pretty swords are classified as luxury items.

Again, you are pushing your own personal preferences when you value function over appearance. Not all players agree with you that being capable of performing in dungeons is more important to them than looking good. Not all players value dungeon running, you know.

You seem to have missed my original point.

It doesn’t matter what your personal preference is. You can choose however you like to play, but in order to perform at max efficiency, you need max stat gear. Therefore, functional gear is “essential.”

Cosmetic gear, however, is not. Therefore it’s a “luxury.” Not having a Legendary isn’t preventing you from anything. Heck, if you like pretty swords, not having a Legendary isn’t preventing you from getting that Legendary itself.

That is “luxury” in the CONTEXT of this game. The whole “This entire game itself is a luxury” argument is stupid, and to ignore the context of the game itself.

What you’re having a problem is the price of said luxury items. Which, you can have own opinion on.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

Essence Snow.3194:

Syeria.4812:

It’s worth pointing out right here that there is not a single item in this game that cannot be attained simply by playing the game. .

I call and raise you a Final Rest!

How sure are you about that? from what little i gather no one has figured out just how to attain it yet, if its even possible.

chances are its also a mf item, just a less logical combination, and If it was atleast we’ll see another gold rush.

That’s the point/joke they were making (yeah, it went over my sleep deprived head last night). The item has been proven to exist (it’s in the database, multiple devs have stated they’ve verified it “attainable”) but so far no one has been able to get it. It’s rumored to be impossible to get, essentially disproving my comment that “every single item in the game is attainable.”

How does Final Rest even qualify as “in the game”? That it’s in the loot tables is trusted from Dev commentary, but all evidence is it has never dropped. BUT, when it does, it will have been acquired from normal play before it can poosibly be acquired via the TP.

Personally I find the current situation a bit musing even if I’m not a flipper at the top of the heap. I prefer to harvest, nad harvesting profits are up. Morso now that I have the Master Crafter title and can sell any crfting mat I wnt to. I keep the t5 stuff for making ectos, I keep the T6 stuff working towards a legendary, but its as simple as stolling out the south door of Lion’s Arch to pick 2-3 mature herbs and sell the corriander seeds for 5+ silver each in a matter if seconds. As a harvester the goal isn’t to make an instant sale, its to sell some time in then next day or so, and you can price quite bit above the lowest sell offer an know you’ll have your coin in hand by tomorrow on many, many items.

Harvesting profits are good. I add value to the economy. Dungeon runnign like a machine to generate coin… less so. Because its willfully driving inflation.

matemaster.2168:

Lets late a global look on the market with materials in GW2
The market with mats will ultimately fail at some point because of this:

1. Who ads the value to mats ? Crafters
2. So who is the target group for purchasing materials ? Crafters
3. Is crafting viable ? In global point of view NO. 90% crafted items are not profitable
4. people will soon realise that the crafting is not profitable
5. The target group for purchasing mats will dissapear
6. The market with mats will collapse

or maybe not because max crafting is also achievment so people will level crafting only because of that and its a pain to collect all mats so they will buy them from TP

The mystic forge is explicitly designed to circumvent this issue. Here’s how it works:

Certain (high end) items will always be in demand as long as the game continues to be supported. Items like ectos and other top end materials will continue to be used for things like ascended ring/amulet promotion. If at any point in time the market for that were to theoretically “dry up” Anet would add new recipes requiring those items which are desirable to players to continue supporting that market.

Now, let’s look solely at ectos. How are ectos created? There’s two sources, salvage of level 76-80 rare or better items, and as a random drop from the mystic clover combines. Since the latter actually requires ectos as an input and its average output is less than the input, it’s not a viable way to create ectos.

So, we essentially have one way to create ectos, by salvaging high level (is it 74-80 or 76-80?) rares and better. Where do those items come from? There’s three sources: Drops in the world, crafting recipes, and mystic forge promotion. The first is likely the biggest source at the moment. The second is usually not cost effective (most, if not all, recipes require ectos as an input). The third is what’s important here. How does mystic forge promotion work? Essentially, 4 masterwork high level items are put into the forge and they have a percentage chance to be “promoted” to a rare item.

So, where do masterwork items come from? These items can be acquired as drops, via crafting, or from mystic forge promotion. At this point, crafting no longer requires ectos, and therefore for certain value ranges of ectos (and other crafting materials) these items will turn a profit, and therefore there will be demand for them. If values for crafting materials fell so low that the “market collapsed” the level 80 masterwork recipes would become cost effective. If those recipes are cost effective, craftsmen will purchase the raw materials to make those recipes. Eventually the market would recover to the point where there’s no economic profit on the TP, but due to vertical integration, it would be profitable for crafters to run through the whole process themselves (as they would save the 15% TP tax, leaving room for profit).

And as for other tiers of mats, these recipes would all require T5 or T6 mats. But T5 and T6 mats can come as drops, salvage, or from the mystic forge via fine/common material promotion. The inputs for those recipes are skill points and mats from the lower tier.

All told, for certain values of ectos, all crafting materials will have value. All Anet needs to do to keep the crafting market from collapsing is increase demand for ectos to such a point where the price keeps those crafting materials valuable. Keeping ectos that in demand simply requires the addition of expensive (in terms of ectos, like the 250 required for ascended backpiece promotion) and desirable recipes. Anet can literally keep the entire crafting economy afloat by leveraging a single item. There are other examples like this, but I simply chose ectos to explain the entire process.

arabeth.2361:

John Smith.4610:

I have to make the argument that your deals are coming at the expense of another player. You are arguing against market efficiency because you want to exploit other people easier, I don’t agree that’s a positive goal for the game overall (though I make no judgement about personal goals).

I have to make the argument that this is exactly how the TP already works, all the time. You call it “market efficiency” but it’s really just “he who knows what the deals are, wins.” I don’t personally agree with the person you’re responding to, but you’re trying to attack his point by holding up the gold standard model of what his point is already about. He is simply asking that the market be easier for him to play – as opposed to the people who play the market now.

The people who are “playing the TP” to make a profit actually provide a lot of value to the economy. They’re not exploiting other players (which is explicitly what the poster Mr. Smith replied to had asked for) because they are performing a value added service. Essentially, they lubricate the economy. They keep it moving, and moving smoothly. The margins they’re making are actually examples of economic inefficiencies. The more people who “play the TP” the smaller those margins become, and the more efficient the market is. It’s important to consider this both ways because we can extrapolate what would happen without these people. Since adding more of this behavior tightens the gaps and reduces price volatility through the day/week/month, we can assume that taking it away would increase that volatility. That’s not a good thing.

What benefit is there in having something like Mithril Ore cost 50% more on Monday at 7pm than it does on Thursday at 5am? Isn’t it better for everyone (except flippers) if the price when you want to buy/sell it is about the same as while you’re sleeping or at work?

Do you think pharmacies are evil bad places out to rip you off? They’re making a profit by purchasing from the manufacturer (or usually, a wholesaler who does the same thing as they do who purchases from a manufacturer) holding on to medicine until someone who needs it comes down to buy it when they add some evil margin on to the product to make you pay more? Are they exploiting you too?

What about your local grocery store? Those jerks are buying product in bulk for lower prices than you can afford with your lower income, then they jack up the price to “exploit” a profit out of you.

Those examples are what flippers and “power traders” on the TP do. They buy product up when the price is low, and that keeps the price from dropping to ridiculously low levels. Then they resell it later in the day/week/month when the price is creeping up, which prevents prices from skyrocketing when demand spikes at that point in the day. Yes, they’re making a profit off of it, but as a society we need to finally get away from that ridiculous notion that “profit = bad evil man.” It’s not accurate, and it’s not helping anyone.

It seems to be a back and forth on many issues.

I do see everyone talking about Legendaries and the precursors. They are part of the problem. The only crafting that is worth anything is endgame crafting.

If 90% of products in the US were not profitable. Then what would you call that economy? That is a depression. I saw someone call it a capitalists wet dream.

The people saying it works is that top percentage. If they all said what crafting items they were making gold off of. I would bet within a few weeks time. Those items would become near vendor value. On most items vendor value is just high enough to help you pay for repairs or low end up grades to your armor.

Now at endgame it isn’t to bad. I know I am having an easier time then a lot of people that I know. Those that hit level 80 are fine for the most part. I managed to get cooking to max, but do to cost. It hasn’t been worth working on the other crafts.

I do wish we were limited to crafts.

If John is looking at the economy like as in a real world one. I have seen many posters say the same thing. You lack the problems from a real world economy. You don’t see say GM going from making cars to making everything in the market place. What happens when a market is flooded? The goods of that market drop in price. The only thing limiting a further drop in price at the TP is the vendor prices.

I do want to point out this is a game. Not real life, but I do know it has real world implications for Anet. They want to make people by gems. It at least feels like they have left their stand on making most of the money off of expansions.

I know I ran a guild and that does cost considerable gold. The upside is all low level weapons and armor using mostly blues is cheap now. The funny thing is you can spend more in repairs the just buying a new piece of armor.

I know much of the low to mid level items that can be crafted is near worthless. I know I would make stuff and spend a ton of time trying to find a recipe that was worth making.

I know there are people that like things the way they are, but others are saying the same thing. I do see that there are people also on the other side. They are on the high end and doing very well for themselves.

So if someone lets say just bought the game. That person will now have a harder time then that of the people that are already level 80. I know I am having an easier time for being level 80. It doesn’t make me want to keep playing. If I make something. I play an MMO to play with friends. If I did well, but my friends found it to be a gold hole of a game. There are plenty of money sinks if you look around. Also, there are players who aren’t as good. They get killed and sacked with repair costs and costs to port places. GW2 does make you need at the very least new weapons. Those weapons cost gold and my friends understandably want certain say colors for their armor. However, when you add in all the costs. The game stops being as fun for those less fortunate. The funny thing my wife was the more lucky one in GW1. I am far more lucky in GW2.

The people defending the in-game economy is like the captains of industry. The CEO’s don’t want things go change, but the far greater majority is getting more poor by the day. The thing with a game is the poor can easily change and not buy anything else. If they see promise in a game they will go there.

phys.7689:

Syeria.4812:

Folk.2093:

I guess the vast ammount of people and number of threads popping up complaining about the economy in this game doesnt mean a thing.

This is known as argumentum ad populum. You are correct when you state that it doesn’t mean a thing.

logical fallacies dont mean they are inccorect or valueless, it just means its not a logical arguement.

also, even logical fallacies can be logical within a scope. If you are trying to objectively measure whether the economy is bad in numbers, maybe its a fallacy, but if the question is,
Is guild wars creating a satisfying economy, then the amount of people who complain becomes relevant.

His argument is literally: Because I have seen people complain on this forum, the economy is broken. It’s a pure argumentum ad populum, with no other contributing factors. Quite literally, it means nothing. I didn’t say it proves him wrong, because someone can easily use a logical fallacy to argue for an accurate position. I said that his example has no merit in the discussion, which it does not.

As for whether or not GW2 provides a satisfying economy (which again, is not really the topic being discussed) the number of complainers is still irrelevant. The biggest reasons for this are the propensity to complain (that is, people unhappy with something are the most vocal, people happy with things rarely comment) and the preferences behind the complaints (Many of the complainers simply cannot be made happy. There will never be a system that satisfies all of their concerns so the fact that they have concerns is irrelevant).

I’ve cut off your specific concerns from the quote as I wasn’t going to directly respond to them. At this point in this thread, if you want actual discussion of those points, I’d suggest you create a new thread with those as the focus.

Lucas of the Desert.2165:

@Mesket you are absolutely right there but what i have to disagree on is that legendaries require an insane amount of farming and gathering and or playing the market. But playing it is the fastest way to get money. It will always be.
If you are a game designer you can choose the richest players to be either excessive grinders, buisness men or the most skilled players (which would be a pvp only game ^^ ).

Why legendaries are as expensive and as troublesome to get as they are was purposely chosen by Anet. They wanted it to be a kittening annoying endless task which takes you years. The average players at least. Look at me i started after the karka event and i still miss gift of might gift of magic 250 globes and 85 charged LS…

I’m not complaining though. I knew it would take me really long. I thought i could do it in under a year but i’m not too sure about that either xD
Just do your dailys play the game gather some gold and do the things that you like most^^ Even if it takes you 2 years you’ll get it eventually

There currently is no other option then making an AION, an EvE or a FPS :P (it’s a little exaggerated on purpose). But thinking of these design options i have the feeling that GW2, although it is more the 2nd type, isn’t doing too bad.

Yes, that’s the one thing that keeps me playing (though its been proven many times that playing the TP is so much better to gather gold than playing)… I know that eventually I’ll get one. What bugs me is that they are still considered top end gear (by dev post, cant find the source now) and one day, when they finally implement ascended weapons; they will have ascended damage and stats.

Do players who never leaves Lions Arch deserve top end gear? That’s the question…

Mesket.5728:

Do players who never leaves Lions Arch deserve top end gear? That’s the question…

But that’s easy to answer. If they paid for the game and they got the top end gear through the game using means other than exploiting, then yes. They deserve it. There is no “right” and “wrong” on this one.

GaiusJuliusCasear.7253:

It seems to be a back and forth on many issues.

I do see everyone talking about Legendaries and the precursors. They are part of the problem. The only crafting that is worth anything is endgame crafting.

If 90% of products in the US were not profitable. Then what would you call that economy? That is a depression. I saw someone call it a capitalists wet dream.

Outside of a system where crafting outputs are sold directly to NPCs for a profit (which has massive issues someone touched upon earlier in this thread) it is not viable to have guaranteed profits in crafting. When the fact that xp is granted for leveling through crafting is taken into consideration, this becomes more pronounced. Players are willing to take a direct monetary loss to level their crafting because they value the xp that’s being granted by that leveling. If the perceived value of that xp exceeds the monetary cost, they will craft at a loss for that experience.

There are plenty of profitable crafting recipes out there. They might not make as much as you want, or sell as fast as you want, but they certainly exist. The fact that 90% of them might not pull in a profit is irrelevant. If they’re not profitable, don’t make them.

There’s plenty of those in the real world, and I’d wager that the ratio in real life is a lot worse than it is in GW2. Building medieval style castles is not profitable, so no one does it. Making asbestos ceiling tiles generally isn’t profitable, so corporations don’t manufacture them. 3.5" floppy disks aren’t profitable so Sony quit manufacturing them. Rotary dial telephones aren’t profitable, so no one “crafts that recipe.”

JaironKalach.4938:

Mesket.5728:

Do players who never leaves Lions Arch deserve top end gear? That’s the question…

But that’s easy to answer. If they paid for the game and they got the top end gear through the game using means other than exploiting, then yes. They deserve it. There is no “right” and “wrong” on this one.

Well,.. there is a “right” or “wrong” but not in a traditional sense of the word. Its more an ethical question (can’t go to deep as English is my second language ) and the answer exists only on the Lead Designer vision of the game.

I used this example in another post, but imagine you are playing need for speed… does someone who never leaves the garage deserves the best car in game? just by reselling car parts? Maybe, but if that was the easiest way to achieve, would you consider it a good racing car game?

Mesket.5728:

Lucas of the Desert.2165:

@Mesket you are absolutely right there but what i have to disagree on is that legendaries require an insane amount of farming and gathering and or playing the market. But playing it is the fastest way to get money. It will always be.
If you are a game designer you can choose the richest players to be either excessive grinders, buisness men or the most skilled players (which would be a pvp only game ^^ ).

Why legendaries are as expensive and as troublesome to get as they are was purposely chosen by Anet. They wanted it to be a kittening annoying endless task which takes you years. The average players at least. Look at me i started after the karka event and i still miss gift of might gift of magic 250 globes and 85 charged LS…

I’m not complaining though. I knew it would take me really long. I thought i could do it in under a year but i’m not too sure about that either xD
Just do your dailys play the game gather some gold and do the things that you like most^^ Even if it takes you 2 years you’ll get it eventually

There currently is no other option then making an AION, an EvE or a FPS :P (it’s a little exaggerated on purpose). But thinking of these design options i have the feeling that GW2, although it is more the 2nd type, isn’t doing too bad.

Yes, that’s the one thing that keeps me playing (though its been proven many times that playing the TP is so much better to gather gold than playing)… I know that eventually I’ll get one. What bugs me is that they are still considered top end gear (by dev post, cant find the source now) and one day, when they finally implement ascended weapons; they will have ascended damage and stats.

Do players who never leaves Lions Arch deserve top end gear? That’s the question…

You’re putting so much faith into contrived stories which have absolutely no supporting evidence. Then you’re getting yourself wound up in a tizzy about the things other people have and how you think they might have gotten them.

Just play the game. If someone else has a legendary, good for them. They look nice and maybe you wish you had one too. The way they earned it has absolutely no relevance to you.

On top of that, the “legendary owners are all people who have never left Lions Arch and spend 8 hours a day working the TP” stereotype needs to go. It’s not likely that it’s true for even a single GW2 player. Most, if not all, power traders spend maybe an hour a day at the most engaging in TP activities. They go out and play the rest of the game a lot. If the stereotype was true, you’d never see someone with a legendary in WvW, fractals, dungeons, or out in the open world. But I can’t go a single login session without seeing someone outside of LA with at least one legendary. Go do pent/shelter/jofast for 20 minutes, you’ll see at least two legendaries. Follow a commander around in WvW for half an hour, you’ll probably see at least a half dozen sets of legendary footfalls.

If you spend less time in life worrying about what everyone else has you’ll be a lot happier.

Mesket.5728:

I used this example in another post, but imagine you are playing need for speed… does someone who never leaves the garage deserves the best car in game? just by reselling car parts? Maybe, but if that was the easiest way to achieve, would you consider it a good racing car game?

I would consider it a good racing car game if I enjoyed racing in it, no matter how someone else acquired the top end car. Most racing games I’ve played, I have played single player, so I certainly didn’t care how other people played. I don’t believe that I should care any more in this game.

Syeria.4812:

Mesket.5728:

Lucas of the Desert.2165:

@Mesket you are absolutely right there but what i have to disagree on is that legendaries require an insane amount of farming and gathering and or playing the market. But playing it is the fastest way to get money. It will always be.
If you are a game designer you can choose the richest players to be either excessive grinders, buisness men or the most skilled players (which would be a pvp only game ^^ ).

Why legendaries are as expensive and as troublesome to get as they are was purposely chosen by Anet. They wanted it to be a kittening annoying endless task which takes you years. The average players at least. Look at me i started after the karka event and i still miss gift of might gift of magic 250 globes and 85 charged LS…

I’m not complaining though. I knew it would take me really long. I thought i could do it in under a year but i’m not too sure about that either xD
Just do your dailys play the game gather some gold and do the things that you like most^^ Even if it takes you 2 years you’ll get it eventually

There currently is no other option then making an AION, an EvE or a FPS :P (it’s a little exaggerated on purpose). But thinking of these design options i have the feeling that GW2, although it is more the 2nd type, isn’t doing too bad.

Yes, that’s the one thing that keeps me playing (though its been proven many times that playing the TP is so much better to gather gold than playing)… I know that eventually I’ll get one. What bugs me is that they are still considered top end gear (by dev post, cant find the source now) and one day, when they finally implement ascended weapons; they will have ascended damage and stats.

Do players who never leaves Lions Arch deserve top end gear? That’s the question…

You’re putting so much faith into contrived stories which have absolutely no supporting evidence. Then you’re getting yourself wound up in a tizzy about the things other people have and how you think they might have gotten them.

Just play the game. If someone else has a legendary, good for them. They look nice and maybe you wish you had one too. The way they earned it has absolutely no relevance to you.

On top of that, the “legendary owners are all people who have never left Lions Arch and spend 8 hours a day working the TP” stereotype needs to go. It’s not likely that it’s true for even a single GW2 player. Most, if not all, power traders spend maybe an hour a day at the most engaging in TP activities. They go out and play the rest of the game a lot. If the stereotype was true, you’d never see someone with a legendary in WvW, fractals, dungeons, or out in the open world. But I can’t go a single login session without seeing someone outside of LA with at least one legendary. Go do pent/shelter/jofast for 20 minutes, you’ll see at least two legendaries. Follow a commander around in WvW for half an hour, you’ll probably see at least a half dozen sets of legendary footfalls.

If you spend less time in life worrying about what everyone else has you’ll be a lot happier.

I’m not worrying about the rest, Its about my game that I’m worried about if any new end game shiny will follow this trend. Of course lots of people have legendaries, some people even have 2 or 3. That says nothing to me. I have 860 hours on my warrior and I’ve never seen a precursor even though that is the only 1 thing I’m after (chasing dragon timers, playing dungeons all the time and when im solo im constantly doing jumping puzzle and chasing chests). This means that I can spend another 500 hours without seeing one. Hey; I can even spend 1600 more hours without seeing one and this doesn’t end here! there is also the rest of the mats which also has very very low chances, lodestones! they have ridiculously low chance and you need them in the hundreds! Basically, in the end… all you need is gold and you can’t make it playing the game. TP players are always ahead…

Mesket.5728:

Syeria.4812:

You’re putting so much faith into contrived stories which have absolutely no supporting evidence. Then you’re getting yourself wound up in a tizzy about the things other people have and how you think they might have gotten them.

Just play the game. If someone else has a legendary, good for them. They look nice and maybe you wish you had one too. The way they earned it has absolutely no relevance to you.

On top of that, the “legendary owners are all people who have never left Lions Arch and spend 8 hours a day working the TP” stereotype needs to go. It’s not likely that it’s true for even a single GW2 player. Most, if not all, power traders spend maybe an hour a day at the most engaging in TP activities. They go out and play the rest of the game a lot. If the stereotype was true, you’d never see someone with a legendary in WvW, fractals, dungeons, or out in the open world. But I can’t go a single login session without seeing someone outside of LA with at least one legendary. Go do pent/shelter/jofast for 20 minutes, you’ll see at least two legendaries. Follow a commander around in WvW for half an hour, you’ll probably see at least a half dozen sets of legendary footfalls.

If you spend less time in life worrying about what everyone else has you’ll be a lot happier.

I’m not worrying about the rest, Its about my game that I’m worried about if any new end game shiny will follow this trend. Of course lots of people have legendaries, some people even have 2 or 3. That says nothing to me. I have 860 hours on my warrior and I’ve never seen a precursor even though that is the only 1 thing I’m after (chasing dragon timers, playing dungeons all the time and when im solo im constantly doing jumping puzzle and chasing chests). This means that I can spend another 500 hours without seeing one. Hey; I can even spend 1600 more hours without seeing one and this doesn’t end here! there is also the rest of the mats which also has very very low chances, lodestones! they have ridiculously low chance and you need them in the hundreds! Basically, in the end… all you need is gold and you can’t make it playing the game. TP players are always ahead…

So you’re making the (inaccurate) assumption that gold cannot be acquired except by playing the TP, and that means you’re mad because other players have something you don’t. What other players have, and how they acquired it shouldn’t concern you.

As for gold, it’s not particularly hard to get by playing the game. CoF p1, AC farm, pent/shelt/jofast, and so many other methods exist. At 4g per hour (which is certainly doable) the 1480g for Incinerator (one of the most expensive legendaries) would take 370 hours. If you play 2 hours per weekday and 4 hours per day on the weekend that’s 20.5 weeks of play. That’s not counting any improved efficiencies by retaining items you need (thus saving the 15% TP tax). It doesn’t include the value of the output on 154 (on average) failed Mystic Clover attempts (rough estimate puts that at about 40g). It doesn’t include the value of converting excess karma to gold, or dungeon tokens to pre-cursor attempts (and the 3g-8g profit per failure). A legendary might take 4 months worth of dedicated play, but it’s absolutely achievable through just playing the game.

Again, quit worrying about what other people have and how they acquired it. That doesn’t affect you at all.

Syeria.4812:

Mesket.5728:

Syeria.4812:

You’re putting so much faith into contrived stories which have absolutely no supporting evidence. Then you’re getting yourself wound up in a tizzy about the things other people have and how you think they might have gotten them.

Just play the game. If someone else has a legendary, good for them. They look nice and maybe you wish you had one too. The way they earned it has absolutely no relevance to you.

On top of that, the “legendary owners are all people who have never left Lions Arch and spend 8 hours a day working the TP” stereotype needs to go. It’s not likely that it’s true for even a single GW2 player. Most, if not all, power traders spend maybe an hour a day at the most engaging in TP activities. They go out and play the rest of the game a lot. If the stereotype was true, you’d never see someone with a legendary in WvW, fractals, dungeons, or out in the open world. But I can’t go a single login session without seeing someone outside of LA with at least one legendary. Go do pent/shelter/jofast for 20 minutes, you’ll see at least two legendaries. Follow a commander around in WvW for half an hour, you’ll probably see at least a half dozen sets of legendary footfalls.

If you spend less time in life worrying about what everyone else has you’ll be a lot happier.

I’m not worrying about the rest, Its about my game that I’m worried about if any new end game shiny will follow this trend. Of course lots of people have legendaries, some people even have 2 or 3. That says nothing to me. I have 860 hours on my warrior and I’ve never seen a precursor even though that is the only 1 thing I’m after (chasing dragon timers, playing dungeons all the time and when im solo im constantly doing jumping puzzle and chasing chests). This means that I can spend another 500 hours without seeing one. Hey; I can even spend 1600 more hours without seeing one and this doesn’t end here! there is also the rest of the mats which also has very very low chances, lodestones! they have ridiculously low chance and you need them in the hundreds! Basically, in the end… all you need is gold and you can’t make it playing the game. TP players are always ahead…

So you’re making the (inaccurate) assumption that gold cannot be acquired except by playing the TP, and that means you’re mad because other players have something you don’t. What other players have, and how they acquired it shouldn’t concern you.

Again, quit worrying about what other people have and how they acquired it. That doesn’t affect you at all.

^ you’re assuming things, I’m far from mad and still like this game. I use every resource available (spidy, gw2trader, calculatorbrave something for the cost of mats for legendary) to calculate my profit/costs and I’m not inaccurate. I made my homework and have spreadsheets and do my regular dungeon farms on daily basis. You fail to comprehend that when you do 30-50g a week (yes, im a grown up and work 9 hours every day plus travel time and live with my GF) TP players raise prices by around 50-75g.- It may be situational and prices may go down again but I hardly think so as many other players are getting close their legendary as well so the demand keeps growing and the prices raising.

My position is that this kind of reward (specially talking about weapons) shouldn’t be around money. Or change them to legendary clothing lol

And please, before quoting me again read all my posts in this thread.

Syeria.4812:

Way to completely not address the comment that was made. No one has established how the TP adds “fun” to the game as that has never been challenged. Therefore you have no point. If you would like to make the argument that the current economy detracts from the “fun level” of the game, feel free to do so, but be warned that you will be expected to back your claims up with logic or evidence.

If you want that challenged, you don’t have to look further away that this thread’s first post.

I was probably a little bit too terse, but one of my points was that all the people who jump at the defense of GW2 economic system whenever someone whines about it miss the forest for the tree. It’s pretty obvious that people like the OP feel the current setup of the economy makes their game experience miserable. Whether their assessment that the economy “is bad” has any “intrinsic value” (assuming such a thing even exists) or not is irrelevant. Your best explanation of why the economy is, in fact, totally brilliant, won’t change anything regarding those people experience of the game.

To the OP, the economy is terrible because it makes the game unfun to play. Considering one plays this game to have fun, that’s pretty hard to confute.

There would also be a discussion here about which criteria you need to use to judge the economy as “good”, since it doesn’t exist in a cosmic vacuum, but it’s supposed to be functional to the MMO’s needs. Many of the explanations I’m seeing about why the economy is in fact so good limit the analysis to the economy itself, but fail to take into account the surrounding framework.

Personally I believe it does indeed further the underlying design philosophy as it’s pretty obvious that e.g. Arenanet doesn’t want everyone to have a legendary and the current setup does actually make it hard to acquire one.
My other point (hence the reference to WoW) was that I have doubts this is the best choice. But hey, it’s not like it’s my game anyway so…

Mesket.5728:

^ you’re assuming things, I’m far from mad and still like this game. I use every resource available (spidy, gw2trader, calculatorbrave something for the cost of mats for legendary) to calculate my profit/costs and I’m not inaccurate. I made my homework and have spreadsheets and do my regular dungeon farms on daily basis. You fail to comprehend that when you do 30-50g a week (yes, im a grown up and work 9 hours every day plus travel time and live with my GF) TP players raise prices by around 50-75g.- It may be situational and prices may go down again but I hardly think so as many other players are getting close their legendary as well so the demand keeps growing and the prices raising.

My position is that this kind of reward (specially talking about weapons) shouldn’t be around money. Or change them to legendary clothing lol

And please, before quoting me again read all my posts in this thread.

The bolded is absolutely, 100%, provably, untrue. Your entire issue now is apparently based on yet another thing you’ve manufactured in your head. The total acquisition price on legendaries that were not modified in the January update has not meaningfully changed in the past month. Any adjustments that have occurred have been entirely driven by behaviors by Anet. Namely, Anet banned a large number of bots on January 16th, causing supply of T6 mats to plummet, which led prices to increase. Anet adjusted drop rates for T6 mats in Orr, and generally made the area more enjoyable. This has caused certain T6 mats to fall in price while others have risen due to the relative decrease in the time cost in to acquire a legendary. Anet added a new source of lodestones via Orrian Jewelry Boxes, this caused a dramatic fall in the price of lodestones.

Your alleged market manipulation simply does not exist.

MagnusLL.8473:

Syeria.4812:

Way to completely not address the comment that was made. No one has established how the TP adds “fun” to the game as that has never been challenged. Therefore you have no point. If you would like to make the argument that the current economy detracts from the “fun level” of the game, feel free to do so, but be warned that you will be expected to back your claims up with logic or evidence.

If you want that challenged, you don’t have to look further away that this thread’s first post.

I was probably a little bit too terse, but one of my points was that all the people who jump at the defense of GW2 economic system whenever someone whines about it miss the forest for the tree. It’s pretty obvious that people like the OP feel the current setup of the economy makes their game experience miserable. Whether their assessment that the economy “is bad” has any “intrinsic value” (assuming such a thing even exists) or not is irrelevant. Your best explanation of why the economy is, in fact, totally brilliant, won’t change anything regarding those people experience of the game.

To the OP, the economy is terrible because it makes the game unfun to play. Considering one plays this game to have fun, that’s pretty hard to confute.

There would also be a discussion here about which criteria you need to use to judge the economy as “good”, since it doesn’t exist in a cosmic vacuum, but it’s supposed to be functional to the MMO’s needs. Many of the explanations I’m seeing about why the economy is in fact so good limit the analysis to the economy itself, but fail to take into account the surrounding framework.

Personally I believe it does indeed further the underlying design philosophy as it’s pretty obvious that e.g. Arenanet doesn’t want everyone to have a legendary and the current setup does actually make it hard to acquire one.
My other point (hence the reference to WoW) was that I have doubts this is the best choice. But hey, it’s not like it’s my game anyway so…

The burden of proof continues to fall upon those who claim that the current economy is harming the game. No matter how many fancy, selfish, silly ways people want to try phrase things “I’m unhappy” is still not an argument. The people who have defended the economy have defended it against the claims that have been made against it. As no one has provided an actual argument (besides the “I want a legendary but it’s hard” one that is constantly put down) as to the economy detracting from the game, no one has felt obligated to defend it.

I’ll reiterate again:

If you or anyone else believes that the economy of the game is causing things to be “unfun” feel free to make that argument. However, you must be prepared to present evidence or logic to support that claim. The burden of proof is upon you.

Syeria.4812:

I’ll reiterate again:

If you or anyone else believes that the economy of the game is causing things to be “unfun” feel free to make that argument. However, you must be prepared to present evidence or logic to support that claim. The burden of proof is upon you.

That’s a baited question though, as “fun or unfun” are subjective and can be dismissed on that basis alone.

Essence Snow.3194:

Syeria.4812:

I’ll reiterate again:

If you or anyone else believes that the economy of the game is causing things to be “unfun” feel free to make that argument. However, you must be prepared to present evidence or logic to support that claim. The burden of proof is upon you.

That’s a baited question though, as “fun or unfun” are subjective and can be dismissed on that basis alone.

Actually, “fun or unfun” are irrelevant with respect to the economy (or rather the mechanics of the TP in specific) as has been stated many times in that no player is at all required to interact with the TP. There isn’t a single item available in the TP that could not be gotten through other means by any player.

The TP facilitates the acquisition, but is absolutely not mandatory for the acquisition.

The choice to make use of this option is entirely voluntary, and if it’s deemed “unfun”, can simply and entirely be avoided.

Much like how flying is not mandatory to go around the world when one has the option to walk/swim. Yeah walking/swimming will get you there eventually but the difference between the methods is noticeable to the extent to where the latter is really no longer deemed acceptable.

Mourningcry.9428:

Essence Snow.3194:

Syeria.4812:

I’ll reiterate again:

If you or anyone else believes that the economy of the game is causing things to be “unfun” feel free to make that argument. However, you must be prepared to present evidence or logic to support that claim. The burden of proof is upon you.

That’s a baited question though, as “fun or unfun” are subjective and can be dismissed on that basis alone.

Actually, “fun or unfun” are irrelevant with respect to the economy (or rather the mechanics of the TP in specific) as has been stated many times in that no player is at all required to interact with the TP. There isn’t a single item available in the TP that could not be gotten through other means by any player.

The TP facilitates the acquisition, but is absolutely not mandatory for the acquisition.

The choice to make use of this option is entirely voluntary, and if it’s deemed “unfun”, can simply and entirely be avoided.

Yeah…“abosulutely not”…riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight….

…technicalities are for the cool kids!

Folk.2093:

Mourningcry.9428:

Essence Snow.3194:

Syeria.4812:

I’ll reiterate again:

If you or anyone else believes that the economy of the game is causing things to be “unfun” feel free to make that argument. However, you must be prepared to present evidence or logic to support that claim. The burden of proof is upon you.

That’s a baited question though, as “fun or unfun” are subjective and can be dismissed on that basis alone.

Actually, “fun or unfun” are irrelevant with respect to the economy (or rather the mechanics of the TP in specific) as has been stated many times in that no player is at all required to interact with the TP. There isn’t a single item available in the TP that could not be gotten through other means by any player.

The TP facilitates the acquisition, but is absolutely not mandatory for the acquisition.

The choice to make use of this option is entirely voluntary, and if it’s deemed “unfun”, can simply and entirely be avoided.

Yeah…“abosulutely not”…riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight….

…technicalities are for the cool kids!

Actually, rationalization and prioritzation are for the cool kids.

Would rather do a dungeon, or something out of game like, watch a movie, cook a nice dinner, go out to the bar instead of grinding ectos? Then go to the TP to acquire what you would have gotten through other means in game in that same time. Otherwise, come to terms that time is the currency you’re paying instead of TP fees for that acquisitions.

It’s not rocket science, and it’s not even sarcastic. A player will prioritize what is important to them. Those bemoaning the TP and the perceived unfavorable rising costs are simply dissatisfied that the chosen means to their desired ends are not falling within their own expectations. In other words, they’re not getting their way, so, they’re sad pandas.

Essence Snow.3194:

Much like how flying is not mandatory to go around the world when one has the option to walk/swim. Yeah walking/swimming will get you there eventually but the difference between the methods is noticeable to the extent to where the latter is really no longer deemed acceptable.

And much like airlines and cruiseships and buses, there’s a cost associated with doing so.

Can’t afford to fly? Take a train.
Can’t afford the train? Take a bus.
Can’t afford a bus? Walk.

Don’t want to walk? Don’t go.

There’s no free lunch. Whether or not an alternative is acceptable is irrelevant if the cost can’t be met or otherwise accounted for.

Mourningcry.9428:

It’s not rocket science, and it’s not even sarcastic. A player will prioritize what is important to them. Those bemoaning the TP and the perceived unfavorable rising costs are simply dissatisfied that the chosen means to their desired ends are not falling within their own expectations. In other words, they’re not getting their way, so, they’re sad pandas.

I agree with you, and I hate to say this, but…. Isn’t that the point of these forums and of almost every post on them?

“I didn’t like what happened to me in the game. I’m a sad panda.”

“I liked what happened to me in the game. I’m a happy kangaroo.”

So, the question simply becomes one of “Are there enough sad pandas for ANet to feel a change is justified.” Who can tell? If the answer is “Yes”, then the question becomes, “How do we make the sand pandas happy without alienating the happy kangaroos.” And see, this right here, is why most of us would make terrible zoo-keepers.

Mourningcry.9428:

Folk.2093:

Mourningcry.9428:

Essence Snow.3194:

Syeria.4812:

I’ll reiterate again:

If you or anyone else believes that the economy of the game is causing things to be “unfun” feel free to make that argument. However, you must be prepared to present evidence or logic to support that claim. The burden of proof is upon you.

That’s a baited question though, as “fun or unfun” are subjective and can be dismissed on that basis alone.

Actually, “fun or unfun” are irrelevant with respect to the economy (or rather the mechanics of the TP in specific) as has been stated many times in that no player is at all required to interact with the TP. There isn’t a single item available in the TP that could not be gotten through other means by any player.

The TP facilitates the acquisition, but is absolutely not mandatory for the acquisition.

The choice to make use of this option is entirely voluntary, and if it’s deemed “unfun”, can simply and entirely be avoided.

Yeah…“abosulutely not”…riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight….

…technicalities are for the cool kids!

Actually, rationalization and prioritzation are for the cool kids.

Would rather do a dungeon, or something out of game like, watch a movie, cook a nice dinner, go out to the bar instead of grinding ectos? Then go to the TP to acquire what you would have gotten through other means in game in that same time. Otherwise, come to terms that time is the currency you’re paying instead of TP fees for that acquisitions.

It’s not rocket science, and it’s not even sarcastic. A player will prioritize what is important to them. Those bemoaning the TP and the perceived unfavorable rising costs are simply dissatisfied that the chosen means to their desired ends are not falling within their own expectations. In other words, they’re not getting their way, so, they’re sad pandas.

Those beamoning the TP realize it’s futile to aquire specific higher end components by playing the games content and get frustrated. Those who don’t complain have found a way to play the TP and the rising costs don’t affect them. In other words those that got their way already don’t care.

JaironKalach.4938:

Mourningcry.9428:

It’s not rocket science, and it’s not even sarcastic. A player will prioritize what is important to them. Those bemoaning the TP and the perceived unfavorable rising costs are simply dissatisfied that the chosen means to their desired ends are not falling within their own expectations. In other words, they’re not getting their way, so, they’re sad pandas.

I agree with you, and I hate to say this, but…. Isn’t that the point of these forums and of almost every post on them?

“I didn’t like what happened to me in the game. I’m a sad panda.”

“I liked what happened to me in the game. I’m a happy kangaroo.”

So, the question simply becomes one of “Are there enough sad pandas for ANet to feel a change is justified.” Who can tell? If the answer is “Yes”, then the question becomes, “How do we make the sand pandas happy without alienating the happy kangaroos.” And see, this right here, is why most of us would make terrible zoo-keepers.

You sir win this thread.

Mourningcry.9428:

Essence Snow.3194:

Much like how flying is not mandatory to go around the world when one has the option to walk/swim. Yeah walking/swimming will get you there eventually but the difference between the methods is noticeable to the extent to where the latter is really no longer deemed acceptable.

And much like airlines and cruiseships and buses, there’s a cost associated with doing so.

Can’t afford to fly? Take a train.
Can’t afford the train? Take a bus.
Can’t afford a bus? Walk.

Don’t want to walk? Don’t go.

There’s no free lunch. Whether or not an alternative is acceptable is irrelevant if the cost can’t be met or otherwise accounted for.

Uhm. In the game, everything could be rendered a free lunch if the developers chose to.

Whether that would be good or bad for the game is an entirely different matter, however I’d like to point that both those who claim that it would make the game worse and those claiming it would make it better just go for the usual unprovable “lots of people would quit”-type assertions.

Essence Snow.3194:

Mourningcry.9428:

Essence Snow.3194:

Much like how flying is not mandatory to go around the world when one has the option to walk/swim. Yeah walking/swimming will get you there eventually but the difference between the methods is noticeable to the extent to where the latter is really no longer deemed acceptable.

And much like airlines and cruiseships and buses, there’s a cost associated with doing so.

Can’t afford to fly? Take a train.
Can’t afford the train? Take a bus.
Can’t afford a bus? Walk.

Don’t want to walk? Don’t go.

There’s no free lunch. Whether or not an alternative is acceptable is irrelevant if the cost can’t be met or otherwise accounted for.

No one is asking for a free lunch…not sure where that came from.

Folk.2093:

JaironKalach.4938:

Mourningcry.9428:

It’s not rocket science, and it’s not even sarcastic. A player will prioritize what is important to them. Those bemoaning the TP and the perceived unfavorable rising costs are simply dissatisfied that the chosen means to their desired ends are not falling within their own expectations. In other words, they’re not getting their way, so, they’re sad pandas.

I agree with you, and I hate to say this, but…. Isn’t that the point of these forums and of almost every post on them?

“I didn’t like what happened to me in the game. I’m a sad panda.”

“I liked what happened to me in the game. I’m a happy kangaroo.”

So, the question simply becomes one of “Are there enough sad pandas for ANet to feel a change is justified.” Who can tell? If the answer is “Yes”, then the question becomes, “How do we make the sand pandas happy without alienating the happy kangaroos.” And see, this right here, is why most of us would make terrible zoo-keepers.

You sir win this thread.

quality

Essence Snow.3194:

No one is asking for a free lunch…not sure where that came from.

It can be deduced from the point you made that some methods are no longer acceptable. In response to this, I indicated that there is inherently an associated cost to the now “acceptable” methods. If the cost is unacceptable, the method therefore would no longer be a viable option.

With respect to the TP, if the cost of performing transactions there is unacceptable, then that is choice the player voluntarily makes.

To come to any other conclusion, would be to presume that a “free lunch” is being offered, specifically, there would be no “cost” (methaphoric, or literal) to transacting in the “acceptable” method.

JaironKalach.4938:

Mourningcry.9428:

It’s not rocket science, and it’s not even sarcastic. A player will prioritize what is important to them. Those bemoaning the TP and the perceived unfavorable rising costs are simply dissatisfied that the chosen means to their desired ends are not falling within their own expectations. In other words, they’re not getting their way, so, they’re sad pandas.

I agree with you, and I hate to say this, but…. Isn’t that the point of these forums and of almost every post on them?

“I didn’t like what happened to me in the game. I’m a sad panda.”

“I liked what happened to me in the game. I’m a happy kangaroo.”

So, the question simply becomes one of “Are there enough sad pandas for ANet to feel a change is justified.” Who can tell? If the answer is “Yes”, then the question becomes, “How do we make the sand pandas happy without alienating the happy kangaroos.” And see, this right here, is why most of us would make terrible zoo-keepers.

Well said

It doesn’t matter what your personal preference is. You can choose however you like to play, but in order to perform at max efficiency, you need max stat gear. Therefore, functional gear is “essential.”

You’re missing my point, it’s only “essential” if it’s “essential” to you that you must function at “peak level efficiency.” If that’s what’s important to you then you need good gear. If, on the other hand you don’t care about “functioning at peak level efficiency,” then having high stat gear is not essential to you.

Either is a choice, either is a luxury, neither is a necessity.

Cosmetic gear, however, is not. Therefore it’s a “luxury.” Not having a Legendary isn’t preventing you from anything.

Oh? Then tell me how I can get my greatsword to leave a night sky trail without getting a legendary weapon? Don’t tell me that I have to value being able to do a high level fractal more than being able to stream stars behind my sword.

The people who are “playing the TP” to make a profit actually provide a lot of value to the economy.

No they don’t. All they’re doing is buying things at the lowest possible price and selling them for the highest. They are therefor encouraging those two states. If their participation was removed entirely then the price would stabilize to the price the item deserves to be based on supply and demand.

They keep it moving, and moving smoothly.

There’s no advantage to having the market “moving.”

Do you think pharmacies are evil bad places out to rip you off? They’re making a profit by purchasing from the manufacturer (or usually, a wholesaler who does the same thing as they do who purchases from a manufacturer) holding on to medicine until someone who needs it comes down to buy it when they add some evil margin on to the product to make you pay more? Are they exploiting you too?

That has nothing to do with this discussion. TP players are not “buying at wholesale, holding on to things until they are needed, and then selling at a slight markup for their efforts.” Market players are buying at one retail price, waiting until supply falls relative to demand, and then selling it back to retail at a mark-up. There is no benefit to the consumer for them having been involved at all.

Ohoni.6057:

You’re missing my point, it’s only “essential” if it’s “essential” to you that you must function at “peak level efficiency.” If that’s what’s important to you then you need good gear. If, on the other hand you don’t care about “functioning at peak level efficiency,” then having high stat gear is not essential to you.

Either is a choice, either is a luxury, neither is a necessity.

Again, it doesn’t matter what the player likes or doesn’t like. The player can choose what he plays. Not having a legendary though, isn’t gating him from any content though. While not having gear, period, will prevent him from doing many many things.

Not having a Legendary doesn’t restrict the player’s choices.
Not having gear does.

Hence Legendaries are a luxury.

Ohoni.6057:

Oh? Then tell me how I can get my greatsword to leave a night sky trail without getting a legendary weapon? Don’t tell me that I have to value being able to do a high level fractal more than being able to stream stars behind my sword.

…By getting that legendary weapon, duh? Because not having that legendary weapon isn’t going to hamper your efforts getting it in the first place. This is why it’s not a luxury item.

Not having gear at all though? Now that will interfere with your ability to farm.

Mourningcry.9428:

Essence Snow.3194:

No one is asking for a free lunch…not sure where that came from.

It can be deduced from the point you made that some methods are no longer acceptable. In response to this, I indicated that there is inherently an associated cost to the now “acceptable” methods. If the cost is unacceptable, the method therefore would no longer be a viable option.

With respect to the TP, if the cost of performing transactions there is unacceptable, then that is choice the player voluntarily makes.

To come to any other conclusion, would be to presume that a “free lunch” is being offered, specifically, there would be no “cost” (methaphoric, or literal) to transacting in the “acceptable” method.

When you say “cost of the tp” are you referring to the tax or the cost of not playing the content?

PS plz for my sake in layman’s terms~cheers

Again, it doesn’t matter what the player likes or doesn’t like. The player can choose what he plays. Not having a legendary though, isn’t gating him from any content though. While not having gear, period, will prevent him from doing many many things.

Yes, but you insist on missing the point, which is that the things that gear might gate someone from might not be activities that they care to do. If not having orange gear gates you from doing certain activities, then that is only a problem if you care to do those activities. There are plenty of things you can do without having to cross that gate. Conversely, if what you want to do is swing a disco ball around and have mirror-shard steps, then not having a Moot is the gate to that experience. They are both equally valid paths, and each are gated by lack of access to the necessary equipment.

…By getting that legendary weapon, duh? Because not having that legendary weapon isn’t going to hamper your efforts getting it in the first place. This is why it’s not a luxury item.

That’s a circular argument. Not having exotic armor doesn’t prevent you from getting exotic armor either. The point is that not having exotic armor gates your access to high-tier dungeons, just as not having Sunrise gates your access to streaming skyboxes from your sword.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, but you insist on missing the point, which is that the things that gear might gate someone from might not be activities that they care to do.

This is the crux of your misunderstanding (if you’re not just being obstinate and arguing for the sake of arguing). Whether or not a specific player wants to complete a specific part of the game is irrelevant. Mushrooms are not considered a luxury good, even though (like many people) I don’t want to eat them. Milk is not a luxury good, even though lactose intolerant people generally don’t choose to drink it. The fact that these people don’t choose to use an item does not make it a luxury good.

Everyone wants proof. Alright, well here is a good example. I tell you start clicking and going down the list.

http://www.gw2db.com/recipes

Those that are arguing real world full blown capitalism. If the majority of goods are sold lower then it takes to make. How long before said manufacture goes out of business?

I will give the fact that if you gather all the mats yourself. You might come out with a profit.

The majority of people that seem to be ok with the current set up is the people that are doing well in it. If Anet isn’t wanting all those gamers as repeat customers. Well, I will say well done on that note. However, if the aim is to capture as much of the market as possible. Then you can’t rely on just one method for players to be happy in.

The one thing that excited me before GW2 came out was the idea of being able to play differently. Now everyone is saying “There is this one way and only way to play the game.” Then you have people saying that it is a sad panda thing. It sounds like a teenager at the other end.

Why does there have to be one way to play? Well, I will answer that one myself. Anet made it that way. However, does it mean the economy is good if only for what I would bet is a minority? Anet hasn’t released how many people have stopped playing. It doesn’t have a monthly fee. So the only reason why you would stop playing. Is that there is some dissatisfied customers.

It isn’t to say I can talk a lot. I like Fallout 3, but not so much Fallout 1&2. Where people that played FO 1&2 don’t like people that played FO3. My sister loves Guild Wars 2. Where me and my wife who have played far more MMO’s and played Guild Wars 1 from the start don’t have that love of GW2.

My wife just doesn’t find it as fun that the only way for her to get by is for me to fund her playing. She did great in playing in GW1, but GW2 doesn’t work for her. I will say that GW2 works for some, but I would like to know from John what are those numbers?

How many have stopped playing? How many accounts are really active? Did those that stopped find the economy and crafting system to be bad?

GaiusJuliusCasear.7253:

Everyone wants proof. Alright, well here is a good example. I tell you start clicking and going down the list.

http://www.gw2db.com/recipes

Those that are arguing real world full blown capitalism. If the majority of goods are sold lower then it takes to make. How long before said manufacture goes out of business?

The “proof” you’ve linked us to proves nothing, and isn’t particularly good at display itself either. This is what you’re looking for, and every single recipe on the first page (for weaponsmithing alone) generates a profit of at least 20s per combine.

As for your “real world” concerns, I just have to quote myself here:

Link

Syeria.4812:

There’s plenty of those in the real world, and I’d wager that the ratio in real life is a lot worse than it is in GW2. Building medieval style castles is not profitable, so no one does it. Making asbestos ceiling tiles generally isn’t profitable, so corporations don’t manufacture them. 3.5" floppy disks aren’t profitable so Sony quit manufacturing them. Rotary dial telephones aren’t profitable, so no one “crafts that recipe.”

This is the crux of your misunderstanding (if you’re not just being obstinate and arguing for the sake of arguing). Whether or not a specific player wants to complete a specific part of the game is irrelevant. Mushrooms are not considered a luxury good, even though (like many people) I don’t want to eat them. Milk is not a luxury good, even though lactose intolerant people generally don’t choose to drink it. The fact that these people don’t choose to use an item does not make it a luxury good.

Yes, but as this is a game, nothing is necessary. Running dungeons is not necessary, therefore the gear needed to run those dungeons is not necessary either. Nothing is necessary, everything is a luxury. If you want to argue that the gear needed to run a dungeon is a necessity for that task, then by that same token the bow needed to fire unicorns is equally as necessary for that task.

They are equally luxury, they are equally necessary, the only distinction is which task you consider to be of value to you.

I will give the fact that if you gather all the mats yourself. You might come out with a profit.

Not really. Even if you do gather all the mats, and can produce the item “for free,” you’re still expending those mats, and if they sell for a higher price on the TP than the final product then it is costing you money to make that product.

John Smith.4610:

I have to make the argument that your deals are coming at the expense of another player. You are arguing against market efficiency because you want to exploit other people easier, I don’t agree that’s a positive goal for the game overall (though I make no judgement about personal goals).

I think it is becoming less of a point in which one would “exploit” another player based upon a lack of seller’s knowledge and more of a position where the TP has proliferated the greed of other individuals and spread like cancer. I’m not sure about everyone else, but during beta I did not imagine a game that would actively try to make achieving their end game “content” (i.e. Legendarys) more difficult to obtain. Now the community is in a position that the average player is no longer capable of acquiring the materials necessary to obtain their Legendary gear because it is either incredibly inflated or impossible to obtain the prerequisites by honest means. One would figure that spending an equivalent amount of funds on rare/exotic weapons would at least be similar to the price of the legendary prerequisites and therefore guarantee success in claiming one, but alas it does not.

What is my point for going this far?

The current TP model that is being perpetuated at this moment is the product of a broken system at a deeper level. You suggest in your comment that you have erased the exploitation of other players by their own ignorance, but the system you have implemented unintentionally encourages the greed of those who actively wish to do so regardless. I can say with near absolute certainty that an average player is not going to be able to afford a 1500g one handed legendary or the 2300g+ two handed one any time soon. A more stable economy would institute additional methods of procuring these items so that the outrageous and somewhat insulting prices of these items will level out to more achievable measures. That is not to say that they will be cheap, but they certainly shouldn’t be 2300g, as it only drives the players right into the arms of your beloved gold sites. I don’t expect to be agreed with, but it would be nice that these things actually be contemplated seriously without the dismissive “market efficiency” is where it should be.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, but you insist on missing the point, which is that the things that gear might gate someone from might not be activities that they care to do. If not having orange gear gates you from doing certain activities, then that is only a problem if you care to do those activities. There are plenty of things you can do without having to cross that gate. Conversely, if what you want to do is swing a disco ball around and have mirror-shard steps, then not having a Moot is the gate to that experience. They are both equally valid paths, and each are gated by lack of access to the necessary equipment.

Again, it doesn’t matter what people want to do. The choice is up to the player. however, luxury gear shouldn’t (and doesn’t) restrict ANY of those choices.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s a circular argument. Not having exotic armor doesn’t prevent you from getting exotic armor either. The point is that not having exotic armor gates your access to high-tier dungeons, just as not having Sunrise gates your access to streaming skyboxes from your sword.

No it’s not a circular argument. Not having exotic armor actually makes it slightly harder to get more money by farming. You do less damage, things take longer…but your functionality is actually worse. Legendary? Nope.

And can we stop talking about cosmetics as if it’s game content? It’s not.

Mnemesis.8257:

A more stable economy would institute additional methods of procuring these items so that the outrageous and somewhat insulting prices of these items will level out to more achievable measures.

Just wanted to point out that a more stable economy =/= economy with cheaper legendaries.

Again, it doesn’t matter what people want to do. The choice is up to the player. however, luxury gear shouldn’t (and doesn’t) restrict ANY of those choices.

You keep ignoring that the lack of what some consider “luxury gear” prevents people from choosing to shoot unicorns out of their bow, or have a glowing skybox on their greatsword. If you could pick up the Legendary skins and effects for a couple of gold then you’d have a perfectly valid point, but as things stand now, all you’re saying is that people’s rights to have affordable max stats is more important than their ability to have their ideal character appearance, and that would be an opinion, not a fact.

No it’s not a circular argument. Not having exotic armor actually makes it slightly harder to get more money by farming. You do less damage, things take longer…but your functionality is actually worse. Legendary? Nope.

Yes, but again, making money through farming is not the ultimate, universal goal of the game either. People’s goals ar etheir own, and not everyone’s involves taking on the toughest content, or most efficiently farming, or anything else that you seem to think should be considered universal goals for everyone to bow down to. Having lesser gear does many certain activities more difficult, just as not having Bifrost makes the activity of “running around with a rainbow trail” practically impossible to achieve.

^ Why do you keep on talking about cosmetics as if it’s game content?

Btw, not having a Bifrost doesn’t make getting a Bifrost impossible. It would be silly if that’s the case.

EDIT: You know what, if you really think cosmetic skins are absolutely required for gameplay, go ahead, it’s your opinion, and I’m not going to change it obviously. Just note that Anet disagrees with you and wholly endorses a cosmetic grind, so it’s highly doubtful that any amount of complaining here will make them change that philosophy.

Ursan.7846:

^ Why do you keep on talking about cosmetics as if it’s game content?

Btw, not having a Bifrost doesn’t make getting a Bifrost impossible. It would be silly if that’s the case.

EDIT: You know what, if you really think cosmetic skins are absolutely required for gameplay, go ahead, it’s your opinion, and I’m not going to change it obviously. Just note that Anet disagrees with you and wholly endorses a cosmetic grind, so it’s highly doubtful that any amount of complaining here will make them change that philosophy.

Well, depending on how you look at it, what Ohoni says is true from a certain point of view. Games are ultimately about the experience, and if the player has decided that what he wants to experience is running around shooting unicorns at his enemies, then yes, his inability to achieve a Legendary is locking him out of what he wants to do. While I fall more into your camp of “game activities and character power is content”, I can see where Ohoni and similar players are coming from when they say that cosmetic items are content (and thus, to their mind, content that is disproportionately difficult to get). I think this is largely a case of differing opinions over what an individual player wants out of the game.

In any event, the final decision is in ANet’s hands. As someone said above, if the number of “sad pandas” who want the colourful/whimsical effects that only Legendaries can provide becomes large enough (or if the wealth gap grows enough that new players find themselves effectively priced out of the market because the time investment needed for them to catch up is too prohibitive), ANet does need to step in. At the end of the day, GW2 IS a game. It shouldn’t become a second job involving hundreds of hours of farming. Legendaries should be something that you can eventually gain by “playing the way you like to” over the course of your lifetime in GW2. If you want it faster, then sure, you can farm/TP your way to it more quickly, but if you’ve been a regular player for, say, 1 – 2 years, who’s done all the PvE content, I think they would be entitled to have a Precursor for their efforts.

That’s why I really hope that ANet hasn’t abandoned the Precursor Scavenger Hunt idea. I think it would help bridge the wealth disparity immensely without affecting the economy too much.

Zaxares.5419:

Well, depending on how you look at it, what Ohoni says is true from a certain point of view. Games are ultimately about the experience, and if the player has decided that what he wants to experience is running around shooting unicorns at his enemies, then yes, his inability to achieve a Legendary is locking him out of what he wants to do. While I fall more into your camp of “game activities and character power is content”, I can see where Ohoni and similar players are coming from when they say that cosmetic items are content (and thus, to their mind, content that is disproportionately difficult to get). I think this is largely a case of differing opinions over what an individual player wants out of the game.

The problem with his argument is that he refuses to acknowledge that there’s more than one type of item. He has stated (a couple times actually) that every single item in the game is an exactly equal luxury good. That’s simply not a defensible position to take. Even if someone were to accept the claim that every single item in the game is a luxury good, that doesn’t justify the conclusion that all luxury goods are equal or that their attainability should be related to each other.

^ Why do you keep on talking about cosmetics as if it’s game content?

Why do you keep talking about cosmetics as if it isn’t game content?

Btw, not having a Bifrost doesn’t make getting a Bifrost impossible. It would be silly if that’s the case.

Of course not, notbody is claiming that it is. You’re making that circular claim I was talking about earlier. Not having Bifrost does not prevent you from gaining Bifrst any more than not having Exotic dungeon armor prevents you from gaining exotic dungeon armor, but not having Bifrost does prevent you from displaying the graphical effects that Bifrost is capable of, just as not having Exotic dungeon armor prevents you from performing up to spec in dungeons.

I’m willing to assume that you aren’t willing to even entertain this notion. Fair enough. But if so, then look at it from the opposite side. If the aesthetics of the legendaries are NOT content, and are not worth getting worked up about, then why the chase for them? I mean, if they were half as “worthless” as some of you claim them to be, then shouldn’t they be considered vendor trash? Why would anyone bother spending enough gold to buy hundreds of suits of fully functional dungeon armor in order to acquire them? I think it’s plainly obvious that the Legendary weapons have significant value to them.

The problem with his argument is that he refuses to acknowledge that there’s more than one type of item. He has stated (a couple times actually) that every single item in the game is an exactly equal luxury good. That’s simply not a defensible position to take. Even if someone were to accept the claim that every single item in the game is a luxury good, that doesn’t justify the conclusion that all luxury goods are equal or that their attainability should be related to each other.

I never said that they were all equally, just that they were all equally a luxury good, that there are not “things we need which must be reasonably priced,” and “things we don’t need which can be as ridiculously priced as anyone cares to make them.” I fully expect some items to be more expensive than others, just as I fully expect some players to have more gold than others, what I object to is the degree to which this disparity currently exists. I currently believe that some players are way too much richer than others than they really should be, and that some items in the game cost way too much more than other items than they should. Part of this is due to flawed supply/demand balancing on ANet’s part, and part of this is due to market exploitation (in the moral sense, not in the strict game rules sense) by TP-oriented gamers. I think efforts should be made to balance this out, to level the highs and lows towards the center.

@Ohoni but what do you expect them to do? Increase the drop chance of precursors and lodestones? I can assure you that they’d rather implement equally difficult ways of getting them instead of tweaking the drop chance.

The point of legendarys are that they should be hard to get. Not normally hard but excessively hard! They are designed to take years. He only problem is that there are intelligent people who manage to either gind or to TP their way up. This is not a faulty system it’s people who figuered what aspects yield the most income.

And believe it or not this way nobody at all is locked out of the content. Random chances are the most fair ways for everyone. Just imagine something being impossibly hard. Like a scavenher hunt where you have to train with your guild day after day, everyone coordinating on teamspeak just to get a precursor after 3h+ of one boss. THAT would lock casuals out of the content.

There are rich players in every game. They either fulfill their goal through being smart (playing the tp or any other economy), being dedicated and persistent (grinding, farming) or pay to win (being rich in RL, which is probably the worst design flaw).

The only way to “make it equal” is to damage the rich people, which would be unfair because it required lots of work to get their earnings or to remove the possibility to trade completely and make everything buyable with gold that every monster drops in a certain amount…. which is boring

Mourningcry.9428:

plasmacutter.2709:

Let me get this straight, please.

Fallacy #1 – argumentum ad verecundiam
You seem to ignore the continuous shift between steel and aluminum casting of parts in the auto industry (easily proven by talking to any experienced auto mechanic), and produce a very verbose but substance-free “rebuttal” consisting of “it.. it’s not analogous because I said so”.

Do you even undestand what “argumentum ad verecundiam” is? Obviously not, or you wouldn’t suggest your assumptions are fact just by “talking to any experienced auto mechanic”. The assumption that the expertise of just “any” expericed auto mechanic upon any and all auto part manufacturing decisions being conclusive is just absurd.

Further, the concept of a substitute is something that you brought up but failed to use properly with the Steel-Aluminum analogy. What you failed to acknowledge is that these are not legitimate substitutes. You claim “real-world” examples, but fail in that “aluminum to steel” is a shift, not a substitute. One model of the same car, from the same production line, from the same model year doesn’t arbitrarily have steel or aluminum depending upon a whim. The engineering and manufacturing changes needed to accommodate this shift is not trivial, nor arbitrary.

You use the excuse of “startup costs” to refute the idea that a healthy economy will see a “resource rush” as a counter-force to a price that skyrockets out of control. I’m sorry, it doesn’t fly. Modern gold and diamond mining operations, as well as the proliferation of oil rigs, knocks this feeble argument clean out of the water.

The key concept to understand is that of barrier of entry, in this case, being the start-up cost. The proliferation you site, is no doubt, a proliferation within the industry itself, is more of an expansion by existing participants, rather than an increase in the number of the participants in the industry itself. Simply put, the startup costs are a significant barrier of entry for every Tom, Dick, and Harry, from going out and plopping down an oil rig. The proliferation is a factor of the marginal cost for the Exons, BPs, and Mobiles to plop down another rig.

With respect to GW2, and in the example I gave, the barrier of entry is the initial acquisition of the pre-cursor. Further, this is in direct response to your assertion of lack of contribution to the precursor market.

Fallacy #2 – the straw man.
You then set up this straw man idea that farming raw materials and ONLY raw materials will produce prsperity for everyone, then knock it over, as if that has anything to do with the point I was making.

Are you trying to pull a straw man? My response was in direct response to your analogy or “reaping what you sow”, which is ridiculous at best. Obviously, my sarcasm was lost on you. If crop production was as stable and only affected by “a horrific disaster” then it would stand to reason, that everyone would be a producer because of the guaranteed return.

In summary, you claim “real world” examples as analogies to in game mechanics. But all your “real world” examples are flawed, and are sandboxed with set conditions which ignore other “real world” factors (i.e. natural disasters being the only factor in crop prices, or engineering and manufacturing limitations). My initial response to your post was meant to refute these unsubstantiated and flawed real-world analogies.

It’s like talking to a diningroom table.

The engineering shifts ARE arbitrary because they happen with every design revision, and if a component material becomes too costly there will be another design revision.

The barriers to entry in the real world are not hard-coded in natural law, like they are in this game, and are obviously not high enough to deter entry in my examples.

Your response was a straw man consisting of a market with all producers and no consumers, and you STILL have not addressed my original point! (beyond, of course, your standard, overly-verbose “because I said so”)

Now do continue to employ “gish gallop” rather than actually address what was being said.

Your english teacher may be perfectly happy with waffling paragraphs full of sound and fury but signifying nothing, but I am not.